New Years Resolutions, The Myth of Calorie Counting, and Phone Addiction

24:42And it was time spent with other people. It was connectivity. And we see it time and time again. So in a way, this is nothing new. This was looking at blood proteins, but it's a similar conversation. I mean, they've looked at like loneliness being the equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. I mean, so there's been lots of iterations of the same conversation. But again, I just think in January it feels, and the reason that I wanted to pick it up is it just feels like this timely reminder. Not to be like overly kind of generic or reductive, but wellness is a 360 pursuit. And I think, and again, not to keep coming back to, oh, why, why are we making this show?

25:15But just to reinforce on episode one, it's like, we know you're busy. You're probably listening to this in the car on the way home from work. Or gosh, we're not perfect. But you've got a lot going on and the idea of cooking a fresh meal three times a day, exercising for an hour a day, getting eight hours of sleep, meditating every day. Like when you put it all together and you're juggling these other responsibilities, it feels so overwhelming. And I think as well, and to come back to that reference to the two million dollars a year and kind of the extraordinary list of things that it entails. It's so easy to look at wellness and think that it's ice baths.

25:50How you look, because that references aging, whereas actually what you're talking about is overall health and how you live a quality life as you age. Totally. And it's just removing it from being these like either extremes or very time consuming or very expensive activities or things that just feel really overwhelming when you have a very, very busy week and actually you're at your desk for 10 hours. And the only option is Pratt or Starbucks. The meal deal down the road. Like a pooch bill deal. Exactly. And like there's a lot that feels out of your hands. But this is more in your hands, which is actually connecting with other people is almost the most important thing that you can do with your health.

26:25And again, it's so easy to overlook these small things. And I think, as I said, when we look at the news and when we look at the way that people talk about health and wellness, what gets cut through now are the extremes. And it's not please go for a 10 minute walk on your lunch break. Yeah. please spend 15 minutes of your day having a conversation with somebody else at some point please just add a sprinkling of seeds to your meal it's these very simple things that are actually so accessible for so many of us but it's so easy to forget them because the press just look at diet and exercise yeah and life is so busy and so it's so easy to kind of lose sight of it also I think for me it was this just reminder you know that the world health organization has described social isolation and loneliness as a global public health concern and so loneliness and feeling disconnected with people you know it does it really really matters but I feel lonely and I'm a busy isn't it amazing how I think we all do because of technology because so much of our work now if you work on social media or you have content you're in an office working with a computer that just automatically reduces how much you speak to a human well if we go back to the Anxious Generation recommendation.

27:36There's a lot of conversation around that where people say, oh, we're more connected than ever because I can. I can text anybody in the next one second and talk to them, but I'm not really talking to them and I'm not really having that meaningful interaction with somebody. Which is why I was so excited that we could actually record together because it's actually really good and it's so interesting. I wanted in 2025, like I don't make resolutions, as you know, but I wanted to just be happier and I think happiness is such a nice goal. Like what can you do to make you laugh? It's just such a lovely thing to say.

28:04I just want to be happier. And I was reading a study that said if you just smile, and I don't know if it's the ex-performer background I've got, but you can almost enforce the natural biological response to smiling naturally when you pretend to smile so you can get that similar feeling of happiness. And it's almost really beneficial for you to try and manifest to be happy every day and kind of you've got to try and pluck something out like, oh, the sun's popped out in the sky. Yes, I'm so happy. I love that. But there is, isn't there? There's a lot of research behind gratitude. Exactly. And being incredibly positive for your well-being.

28:42I'm not talking about being OTT, by the way, because a lot of people listening might be like, oh, my gosh, what's she on? No, but it's so easy to look at the situation and say, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed. And it's also, you can sit there and pick out the good bits. And as I said, there's a lot of research behind that, isn't there? That actually finding those moments of gratitude, your body does really respond to it. your nervous system really responds to it. Which is why if we go on to our trending in wellness section, I think that leads really nicely because I know Ella, you were talking about algorithms, but I wonder how happy these people are online that are actually doing these trends in the first place.

29:19Like they're on their own filming content that looks like it's taken two days to film to make one 20 second reel. And you've got some trends to start with that I cannot wait to actually hear what you've got.

29:35It is so important to me that my home feels like a calm and cozy sanctuary from the chaos of the world. I found that beyond decorating, sensory things like warm smells and soft textures make the biggest impact for that. And especially as it cools down outside, I'm looking for the best ways to snuggle up on my couch. I recently moved and one of the very first things I added to my new living room was my bubble cuddle blanket from Cozy Earth. It's a faux fur material that is so incredibly soft and has this cool bubble design that makes it look and feel very plush. It's a mid-weight construction so I've honestly decided against getting a weighted blanket because it's not too heavy but you still get that feeling of security when you lie under it.

30:16My roommate has said it's her new favorite blanket and we've been keeping it on the couch at all times instead of the blanket basket with the rest of our options. I've also been loving my bamboo sheets from Cozy Earth. The temperature regulating capabilities were great for the summer and now that it's getting a little cooler at night, I'm just really appreciating the softness of the sheets and pillowcases. It's like I'm slipping into a cloud every night. Plus, you can try them risk-free with Cozy Earth's 100 night sleep trial. If you don't love them, you just return them hassle-free, but believe me, you're going to be hooked after the first night.

30:46So if you're looking to make your home a little more cozy this fall, head to CozyEarth.com and use my code SCOOP for 20 % off. That's CozyEarth.com code SCOOP. And if you get a post-purchase survey, make sure you let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Because home isn't just where you live, it's how you feel. So let's go home with Cozy Earth. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from EBCLIS. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

31:25EBCLIS, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2-milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

31:53You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Searching for real relief? Ask your doctor about Epglis and visit epglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. I don't think when we set out to make the show that the idea was that we would have like a singular theme for each episode. But I think when this episode sort of ended up having one, which is quite a lot about our life online, and obviously we have both lived a lot of our life online over the last decade or so, from that infancy of social media to where it is today.

32:26and I think as I've just sort of been reassessing my own life both personally professionally I'm so conscious of of the online world today and what it looks like and as I said my let's say obsession in terms of my career at the moment is how do we create this what feels like so much more of a middle ground but still get cut through because in a world of extremes that feels really difficult and when I look at the trends online I notice it so much it's you know the way the algorithm works now for something to for anyone to see it you need to have loads and loads of comments and you need to have loads and loads of shares and to get that you've got to be vaguely controversial as i said nothing that's what we said or nothing yes i do remember when i i'm like very new i don't really use tiktok i'm a bit old but um someone in the office created for us and i was going through it and they're showing me people and i was like does everyone cook in a bra in tiktok i know but this is what when they open the fridge door that's what i observe there's always an opening of the fridge door so you get a bum shot and then so in like an old dainty but i was like where are their clothes but everyone wakes up in a matching leisure wear don't you know they wake up well so this is now how they wake up yeah let's talk about this because now that i've gone back online after christmas this is what i have seen the whole time and it's called the morning shed um the morning shed the morning shed shed shed like a garden shed so i said to rey like an hour ago.

33:50Do you want me to show you this now or shall we wait? So we waited. So let me turn my phone off. I don't know what I'm going to see. I'm actually quite anxious about it. Okay. They're like 21 year olds doing it. Because obviously when we got online, there was no, we didn't know Instagram was going to be big, but people today, they do it with purpose. Oh no, they do it with purpose. They do it with purpose to get views. This is it. So the morning shed, essentially what it is, is that you apply extreme multiple layers of skincare, but skincare is kind of a light way of explaining it before you go to bed.

34:21So you've got sheet moths, mouth tape, heatless curlers, sticky tape on your foreheads. Apparently that's the new Botox. Jawline straps. What the hell is a jawline strap? I'll show you. You go to bed as ugly as you can to wake up as beautiful as you can with like instant glowing skin, bouncy hair. But aren't these girls in their 20s anyway? Yes. But, okay, so let me show you one because this has had 10 million views or so. okay everyone I'm about I'm about to see really popular okay oh my gosh what is that on her face is that the oh my gosh it's like so unraveling the jaw strap the sheet mask the mouth tape so you only nose breathe heatless curlers oh my god what's she peeling off her face I think that's a face mask she sleeps in all night I can't figure out how anyone sleeps that's not meant to be good I know that you're not meant to keep a mask on that long not one like that so there and now we've got the heatless curlers and so basically i do like a heatless curl you wake up and you're perfect and this is all i'm seeing my algorithm at the moment let me see let me see the let me see the end i need to see the end shot oh look the shake of the hair oh oh wow got a bit of a head bang to get the curls out okay so she looks absolutely gorgeous that must have cost her just to do that one evening like 50 pounds yeah and look she looks gorgeous and if that makes her really happy that's amazing but I think as I said I wasn't trying to kind of create a singular theme but I think probably because it's top of mind at the moment it's my first opportunity to publicly have such big conversation about it it's come back to the same thing this and there was an interesting when I was researching it actually there was a piece in Vogue talking about it where what the morning shared yeah where they're right on the surface it looks pretty harmless right it's just a personal preference but when you get underneath it it is potentially again in this whole kind of extreme world that we're living in quite detrimental because it's this idea of perfection and it goes back to the same thing where we feel like to do our best we have to go to the extremes and I feel nervous about the fact that health and wellness has become associated with taping up your mouth to go to sleep I bought us some have you yeah mouth tape arrived this morning um so we'll have to try it out when you brought it earlier I was like yay this looks great no no it's called sleep seal it sounds like we're gonna die um dream deeply snore softly thrive daily and i can't do this as like a singer in my past life this to me is wrong so we're going to tape our mouth shut to go to sleep okay um let me have a look at the bag on the um pretense so you buy them in the packets and i'm not criticizing any like personal individual thing like don't get me wrong i love a face mask i love a face massage all the rest of it but it's just this question and i think when I was thinking about trends this week, there's loads of specific trends we can look at, be that fasting, be that cycle syncing, the castor oil packs.

37:18There's so many different things that people are talking about a lot online. The carnivore trend, adaptogens. Ella, have you read the caution on the back of this pack? Yes, that you may die. Literally. Just so you know, this trend has had 75 million posts in total. And I bet a lot of them are teenagers as well. And it says, please use this product responsibly. It's not suitable for children under 16. And then it says, individuals with pre-existing breathing or heart conditions, nasal congestion or other nasal issues that are prone to vomiting or under the influence of alcohol or sedatives refrain from use if you have chapped lips or open sores around the mouth.

37:49Prior to use, consult with a medical professional. Because you sealed your mouth shut. It says, prior to use, I'm not making this up, consult with a medical professional. So anyone can buy this, but they have to consult with a medical professional. Yeah, it's£6 on Amazon. That's mad. That is mad. Yeah, as a kind of starting point on trends, it's just this starting point exactly of like how far have we taken wellness and how do we bring it back to people where it feels like it fits more into their normal day to day life. Is that wellness? Is it this morning shred? Shed, sorry. I wanted to call it shred.

38:24I'd say it's an existential question, but it's probably an existential question for people that work in the wellness industry. through but I think that's the question is like what is wellness now because I think it's so now it's so much less about carrots and lentils and walking and happiness you know all of the things that happen in blue zones where people live the longest in the world where they have community where they have friends where they eat home cooked meals they love beans it's a very kind of local simple healthy life it's deeply wholesome and actually now it's trendy it's deeply trendy exceptionally expensive pretty complicated and I think one of the things that I found really interesting over my career and again it's kind of informed a lot of this thinking is I feel like I've lived this double life where half of me has spent most of the last decade in our office where we are now working like a very normal desk job where I'm here from 9 till 6 I spend my day in but no but as in I spend my day in the meeting rooms talking about operational and you know normal office things essentially and then there's this other kind of actually what is like now a slither of my life which is in the kind of more traditional wellness influencer type world where the sort of cookbook life etc that I have has lived where and I think what's interesting is I see so much information comes from people who don't have a desk job and it feels when I look at the two and I'm here all day that's why and I don't go outside between nine and six and I forget to eat lunch and eat snacks and spoons of peanut butter.

39:57I look at it and I just think so much of the advice I'm being given is just impossible for my life. It just feels so deeply disconnected. And I think that when you're saying what is wellness, I think that's what I'd like us to be talking about here in a way and being able to bring to people is like, can we collectively redefine it and leave you feeling each week that what you do really matters. Like as we've seen, like your gut health, it's really affected by what you eat and your gut health is so important. Your heart health is affected by your social interactions. Yeah, your happiness. You know, when you put it all together, like how you live your life, how you move your body, what you eat, how you sleep, etc.

40:32It does all really matter and there's no shying away from the fact that it has an extraordinary impact on your likeliness of disease, on your mental well-being. It's all there. But when you see these videos... But the advice we're being given just doesn't really feel very relatable, very realistic or particularly associated to some extent with like what you need to do, which is... But you can't do it. This is what you can't do that morning shed. Most people can't. And then the What I Eat In A Day videos haven't gone anywhere. Most people would think Ella, right? Just saying. If they didn't know you, obviously I know you for years.

41:05But people would think she cooks three times a day in a perfect kitchen set up like the What I Eat In A Day videos and has these three gourmet type healthy meals every single day. But we know that What I Eat In A Day cannot possibly, this is why I'd never do it, cannot possibly be real because they are staged. and they are filmed and they are prepped for engagement. I mean, you are deliciously Ella and you don't have time every day because you're working your office job. Oh, 100%. And like, maybe I should do a real one. Yeah, but I don't think it would get any views because you'd just be here in the office in your cardi.

41:41No, exactly. It'd be like, oh, I really like the avocado. Ruby Stanley, she does have everyone. She's got a Stanley cup in front of me in teal. I have in like D.E. Green. I have got a Stanley Cup, 100%, because my worst habit is not drinking any water. And I would say, actually, do you know what? It's 20 to 1, I haven't had a glass of water today. Do you know what? I haven't, but I've had a lot of herbal teas. And we did have a stereotypical green juice. No, I didn't have. No, you took me to the juicery. I had a coffee at one matcha. But so, yeah, 20 to 1, I haven't had water yet. So the Stermy's...

42:11But this is what I mean, right? So wellness trends. If I, as a nutritionist, and you, as Ella Mills, cannot cook these three perfect meals a day, you're all being lied to. because it's not real it's just not real yeah and we're not doing it in our sport i bet if you got up on a sports bra and your page it's already huge but would just blow through the roof because that's what the algorithm wants right it's what the algorithm wants and i think that's that's the i know you're so keen to talk about what in a day and i so agree with you on it because i think it's so interesting there's obviously there's such great inspiration to take from people's ideas and what they cook and I love that.

42:48That's it. But this idea of emulating someone so perfectly or that what you're seeing online is real. Fully made up with perfect hair. Yeah, it's just take everything with a pinch of soul, to say the least. And I think that, to me, I totally agree. I think it's a really difficult trend and exactly on this kind of algorithm thing where you have to be extreme to get interactions now to some extent. You need a body next to the food. So it used to be, do you remember how Instagram started? because we were obviously there at the very beginning before it was a monetization platform. It was just something that I was working in a cafe posting the recipes I was making for this gym called Transition Zone.

43:26And I was their nutritionist and you were blogging and sharing your experiences. So we both had no idea. Spiralized courgette. Spiralized courgette. And I was making energy balls. Me too. Yeah. Kale spirulina porridge pots I made for the clients at that cafe because spirulina was the thing. but isn't that so funny that we didn't need a body in it you could just like take a picture of your meal and it didn't have to look perfect. Top down with your toes in it. Yes yes. That was the theme right you held the bowl. Until they ended up on wiki feet and then you had to take them off.

44:00But now you have to have a silhouette a body a made-up face a bit of flesh or you have to be smiling trigger happy eating a recipe for it to even gain traction unless it's a viral trend which seems to be a weird thing now I made a cottage cheese loaf and it got yeah 11 million views and then I can make something that's actually helpful and useful or give like an informative nutrition video about why ketogenic diets are bad for you and you just need to get more fiber and it'll bomb and I'm like why am I bothering yeah well because it matters because it really matters and that's that's why you're bothering and i think it's but it is it's fascinating and it's not i don't mean any of it as a criticism it's anyone on a personal level but i think the question is much more exactly like that redefining of wellness and trying to reignite a conversation where is this this day-to-day inspiration to just do what you can do you know do your best and your best is often like you know to get that 30 different plants a week which sounds overwhelming but like why don't you sprinkle some seeds on your dinner cook with a spice like get paprika or organo in your food if you're making pesto and i do this all the time with my kids especially my little one's obsessed with pesto pasta she'd eat it every single day if she can so in to kind of spice it up i just two minutes boil some peas and edamame and add some spinach on top and blend that do you get that because you can buy frozen edamames it doesn't have to be costly it's frozen I use frozen peas, edamame and spinach.

45:29And I literally just boil them for about two minutes. And then blitz. And then you blitz it with the pesto. Nice. And it's so simple. Like it's such an easy win. It's saying like I'll do the pesto made with half pineapples but half cashews, for example, as a way of getting that in. And she's not doing that three times a day because she's in the office. Oh, well, no, make a big batch. In the evening and make a big batch. Exactly. But it's those like really, really simple things that I think. That's wellness. That's wellness. And that's where you put your time this week. or, you know, every week I'll make a really big batch of Skye.

46:00My oldest daughter calls it bolognese. For anyone Italian listening, at this point it's not bolognese. It's far removed. But it's some kind of veggie stew and you just use whatever's left over. But it could be this week I used leeks, celery, shiitake mushrooms, romano pepper, things that like my kids do not like leeks. But, you know, it's chopped up and it's right at the base of the dish. They don't know when it's chopped like that. With black beans and coconut milk. No, they can't see it. And that's diversity. And that's my point. That's diversity. And so I don't mean like as a criticism of anyone with what I eat in a day, but what I'm just so keen is like what most people eat in a day is maybe not as perfect as that.

46:38But it also doesn't match up with the calories. And I think that's something obviously people need to, first of all, message us in and let us know what trends they see, because I feel like people are going to see way more than maybe we do every day. So message us, let us know what you want us to cover for trends. Positive and negative. Positive and negative, yes. And same with books, articles, anything you're seeing. We want to talk about what you're seeing and give people ideas and inspiration on the back of that. Yeah. And I think it is really, really important. And I guess to close on the what I eat in a day trends, you know, it doesn't add up.

47:10If you look at the calories under some of this and the energy intake, things just don't match. And we know that people are aware of calories, though. And that's why we wanted to kind of get our expert that we've got this week, because an article from 2020 said the average person is going to try 126 fad diets in their lifetime. And I'm sure that's going to go up, Ella, because look at the trends we've just dissected now. But is it helpful or harmful? And calorie counting is often one of those big diet trends that people try. It's healthy. Ultimately, calories are not an accurate measure of health.

47:42And in the clinic, we see it all too often. I think it actually stemmed from when that app, I almost don't want to name it, because it had this calorie count of 1 ,200 calories a day to lose weight and everyone saw it as gospel. And then you had the rise of the FITSPO and the PTs online giving out nutrition advice based on number counting. And it just blew up. And it's obviously been a message, calorie counting, for years, but it doesn't dictate the quality of the diet. And it definitely hasn't worked because if you think about it, if calorie counting had worked, we wouldn't have the obesity epidemic that we currently do have.

48:18as well and no one chooses to be obese it's not a lifestyle choice that is a positive one for people and we genuinely want to help and I don't think calories is the answer Ella. No but it feels like we can't escape it. People think it's health. I remember so clearly when I changed my diet this is all the way back in 2012 now and starting cooking with my mum and she was so supportive but I remember putting an avocado on her plate I can't remember what else was on it But it stayed with me for so long. And she went, a whole avocado, that's so many calories. And my mum had never been someone with a complicated relationship with food.

48:56She'd actually never been on a diet as such. She'd set a really great example. But she felt like that was like just so many calories. To me, it really showed this kind of generational focus and how subliminal the focus on calories had been as opposed to the health benefits of certain foods and how brilliant they are. It's really fascinated me. And I think that even though the science has moved on so much, particularly over the last decade, on calories and them actually being largely arbitrary to some extent. Well, we know it's not accurate on food. Ella, you own a food business. It's not accurate on packets.

49:34For so many different reasons that we'll go into. But also, it's not a measure of health. It's never worked in the clinic with clients, ever. it's only when clients actually need to gain weight in our eating disorder unit that you have to be remotely aware but the client won't know the clinician will know and i think when we think about trying to move the wellness conversation on to thinking about things that are positive and empowering and about these little things we can do every day to make ourselves feel gray moving away from looking at calories and moving into looking at like the number of colors on your plate and the diversity of it how can we eat the same number every day we're all different but we're meant to do different things.

50:11But that's why we've got the best person. Exactly. So to just shine a light on this topic, to really clarify, and I hope inspire you guys to move past calories, to stop looking at those numbers, if that's something that still exists with you, we've got Professor Giles Yeo here.

50:30Giles, I mean, we couldn't think of anyone better. I know you've written about this in your books. You do multiple talks on this every year. But are there any real benefits to calorie counting, Giles? And is it outdated now? Look, I think it's always an interesting question when I talk about calories. People think I'm anti-physics. I'm not anti-physics. You know, I do understand. I do understand that 200 calories of chips is twice the portion of 100 calories of chips. Okay, I do understand that. But so is 200 grams of chips, twice the portion of 100 grams of chips. And no one is trying to compare 200 grams of chips to 200 grams of carrots.

51:05I think ultimately that is the point, right, where the calories provide one piece of information and only one piece of information, the amount of food. And that is an important piece of information sometimes, but nothing else. So I think within the context of trying to think about your health or your weight, I do think we need to be slightly more sophisticated than using just, in effect, weight of food. that is such a phenomenal answer and I think really gives such a great perspective to the culture that we have around food and particularly that kind of very pervasive diet culture whereas you're saying Charles it's not that a calorie is entirely redundant because a thousand grams is still a thousand grams and you said it's infinitely more than a hundred grams but equally it's only telling us one thing about the food that we're eating and so I think that's the myth that we felt was quite important to break down is whether a calorie is just a calorie.

52:00So how does the calorie count of an ultra processed meal compare, for example, to the equivalent, but it would be all made from scratch, for example, or ground almonds versus whole almonds? That big question of can you compare the calories in a Mars bar to that of an avocado? Because I think when we think about traditional ways of thinking of food, which now feels, I think, quite outdated to us, people would often say, oh, I can't eat an avocado because it's too many calories because they're thinking of it as the same as eating a Mars bar, essentially. I mean, I think you have to remember how old calorie counting actually is.

52:32I mean, this is always the interesting thing. People think it's some new thing. You know, it isn't. So the whole concept of the calorie as food was from this chap named Atwater, Wilbur Olin Atwater. And with a name like that, he could only be American. And he was, he was a professor of chemistry in Connecticut. But between the years of 1880 and 1900, and he He was the one that almost, he came up with the numbers that we all work with today, right? So four calories for a gram of protein, four calories for a gram of carb, and nine calories for a gram of fat. And he came up with those numbers. We still use them 120 years on.

53:07But even he wasn't the one who was actually responsible for calorie counting because it was actually someone, and I don't think she did this maliciously in any way, shape, or form, but there was a female medic in the very, very early 1900s. So this is quite unusual, called Lulu Hunt Peters. I think she wrote a book called Diet and Health. And she was the first calorie counter. She was a larger lady, as far as I can understand. And so she had read Atwater's work about these calories. And she decided, she was trying to lose weight. She was a medic. And she says, ooh, well, I think the way to do that is rather than think, and she had a really lovely piece she wrote in her book saying, I want you ladies, because they were all ladies.

53:46And I put it, I don't know what her accent was, but I imagine she had this accent. I want you ladies to not think of how much pa. I want you to think about how many calories of pa. And literally, that probably wasn't what she sounded like, but she took all the foods that people were eating in the early 1900s and converted them into 100 calorie chunks. And so she would say, this is 100 calories of bacon and 100 calories of celery or something or what have you. and this was her way she weaponized the calorie to try and get people to understand more about their food now i don't think she was doing this to sort of because she was using the latest tech at the time and the latest biology which was calories but she was the first calorie counter in fact i would say she was probably the mother of the diet industry because she wrote this book which was a new york times bestsellers for four years wow for four years in 19 it was just after World War I, most of her, the people who bought the books were middle-aged American women who were getting a little bit larger.

54:50And so she was the first calorie counter. So she obviously created this concept. I love that history, by the way. I think it's fascinating how diet culture evolved. And when we first started to notice that people could gain weight, because obviously the access to food we had changed in America. I'm not going to attempt to do the accent, but that was perhaps, you know, nice to have the history. So could you explain to our listeners the difference of the food matrix that people discuss, you know, how you simply cannot numerically put a number on the benefits you get from eating a food? Like Ella said, let's stick to the avocado Mars bar food matrix equation.

55:27People don't need to worry, do they, so much about the numbers when they consume an avocado, but they do when they consume a Mars bar? Why is that? Look, as we said, the amount of food does matter to a degree. But crucially, and where we are in trouble at the moment as society is the quality of our food. Okay, the quality of the diets that we're actually eating at the moment. Not us, not the three of us eating. I think we probably have very good quality diets, whatever it is we're eating. But actually, if you look at society, the lowest, the bottom quintile of society in terms of socioeconomically, I mean, the cheap foods are not the healthiest foods.

56:02And so ultimately, the calories don't actually reflect it. And the reason behind this is something called caloric availability. I mean, ultimately, that's the thing. So what is caloric availability, the availability of calories? It is the total amount of calories that are stuck in a food compared to the calories you actually get out. So the example I always use is, well, let's take the most calorically available food, which is sugar. Because pretty much 100 calories of sugar, you get close to 100 calories out because sucrose is glucose and fructose, one cut, we absorb it. So that is whatever because it's just an element of food rather than food in itself.

56:43Now, if you then take something like sweet corn, corn on the cob, and you know that when you eat 100 calories of sweet corn and then you look in the loo the next day, you clearly haven't absorbed anywhere close to 100 calories of sweet corn. Whereas if you take sweet corn, you desiccate it, you make a corn meal, you make a masa out of it, then you make a corn tortilla, you make a cornbread, whatever it is you're making from it. Because of the processing that you have actually put the corn through, you suddenly get a lot more calories out of exactly the same food. So this processing of food influences the calorie availability of the food, which means that it might say 100 calories of sweet corn or 100 calories of corn tortilla, but you're going to get far more calories out of the corn tortilla than you are out of the sweet corn.

57:31And this is just comparing exactly the same food, just worked differently. Now, if you start to say that, well, let's think of an avocado and compare it to a Mars bar. And then the comparison in terms of the calories that make absolutely, absolutely no sense. And the two elements of food, and I want to argue in shorthand give us the quality of the food. The two components are going to be the amount of fiber that is in the food, depending if we're talking about plants, obviously, and the amount of protein that's in the food. Because this influences by far the calorie availability of the food. So fiber, we can't digest.

58:14This is the sweet corn phenomenon, okay? It comes out the other side, but it adds to the calorie count but we can't absorb it and protein compared to the other macronutrients so carbs and fat it's more complex to break down it takes a lot more energy to to metabolize to digest and so you use a lot more energy to deal with protein and so foods that are higher in fiber and or protein depending what we're talking about have a lower caloric availability which means that if it's 400 calories of something that you're eating of an avocado for example, or a steak or tofu or beans, compared to 400 calories of Mars bar, a meal that's been ultra processed, whatever you want to call it, suddenly, even it says 400 calories, you're going to get far fewer calories beyond even the benefits of having fiber and protein.

59:05You're going to get far fewer calories just eating a whole food compared to eating a food that's been really heavily processed. It's such an important message. I'll never forget when I was reading your book, actually, Giles, and you were talking about the, it was an ultra processed sandwich. I think it was a ham and cheese sandwich versus the homemade equivalent and how different that was. I wondered if you could use that example as well for our listeners, because I think it was incredibly powerful because it feels so tangible in terms of someone's lunch today. So I think what happens here is that if you actually take bread, for example, that's either been worked a bit more or there's a higher flour content or there's a higher fiber content, crucially, there's a higher fiber content, then the food that you're eating that bread, your body's going to work harder to extract the calories from it.

59:50The same is true with cheese. Now, if you actually had a piece of cheddar, like a regular normal piece of cheddar, which you cut versus the ones that are wrapped in plastic, and I don't know what the hell they're made of. Okay, for that. Or ham. What is ham? Ham is actually a slice of pig leg, I mean, broadly speaking. Okay, if you slice it up, well, that is just a piece of meat. Whereas some of the ham, I don't know what the provenance of some of this very, very uniform shaped ham is. And so I think the problem is when you're eating exactly the same ham and cheese sandwich and you're eating it, you're not eating exactly the same food.

1:00:21I'm not demonizing one versus the other, but we shouldn't pretend that they are necessarily the same thing because you're going to get more nutrients out of one versus the other, or at least one is going to be less calorically available than the other. And this is where the conversation around, obviously, with calories, it makes perfect sense. You get more of the calories from the ultra processed cheese than you do from the cheese that's slightly less processed or the bread, you know, making things from scratch. But where it just doesn't seem fair because people aren't told this. So, you know, they'll go out on the go, they'll buy a sandwich they think is relatively good for them.

1:00:59And they look at the back of the packet. So let's say I'm Anne and I'm on my way to the shops and I'm going to buy my sandwich and I want a meal that's under 500 calories because that's what I've been told I should have for lunch. How accurate, Giles, is that number though on the back of the packet? So Atwater did a sterling job. So briefly, how Atwater, who obviously worked out these numbers, did the calorie thing, was that he did something called bomb calorimetry, which means that you desiccate a food and burn it and then measure the amount of heat that comes off. So for using that, he could calculate a total number of calories in food.

1:01:35He then, between 1880 and 1900, he then fed the food to people. So he now knows what went in. He then burned what came out the other side. And this is what he actually absorbed. And that's fine. So he worked in the sweet corn phenomenon element of it. What he didn't work out, and this is the crucial thing, and he couldn't, not with the technology at the time, was the cost of doing business, metabolism. So digestion is one element of eating where the food gets to the gut wall and moves to the bloodstream. That's digestion. But that's not where we get our energy from. Our energy is then taken from the sugars, the fats, and the amino acids, and then metabolized.

1:02:14Now, it takes, just as an example, for every 100 protein calories you eat, at water protein calories, we are only ever able to access 70 calories, 7-0. Because when we're dealing with protein, 30 % of the protein calories is given off as heat. Because it's complex to deal with protein, there's nitrogen in protein, you need to do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Whereas if you look at more fat and carbs, they are more available. So fat is nearly 100 % available. It's very dense, but it's nearly 100 % available. Carbs, depending on whether or not we're dealing with fiber-based carbs, wholemeal versus refined, there's probably about a 5-10 % difference within there.

1:02:58So broadly speaking, calorie counts at the back of the pack took into account Atwater's burning the poop scenario. I'm sorry for people listening. But it never took into account the metabolism element of it. So calorie counts are probably just on the surface, already 5 to 10 % wrong everywhere, everywhere. Now, it is more wrong the higher the food is with protein and fiber, and far less wrong when you're actually dealing with a food that is higher in fat and carbs. I'm not being anti-fat or anti-carbs. I'm trying to explain. Like a biscuit. So if you're looking at a pack of biscuits, it's more likely to be an accurate calculation, roughly, or estimate.

1:03:38And if you're looking at a can of mixed beans. Beans. Now, if you actually amend a can of mixed beans or anything like that, then because of the high protein, high fiber, super low fat, you're going to get, if you look at the beans, they're probably 30 % out just in terms of the amount of calories that at least your body can actually use. So I think that, look, the calorie count, as I said, amount of food, I think the traffic light system and what it lights up at the moment, which is what we deal with, because what we have at the moment is not a lack of information. Okay, when you look at the back of a pack of the food, it lists everything, the ingredients, everything.

1:04:16It's not a lack of information. It's just that when I walk into a supermarket and I'm trying to buy food, okay, I'm moving. I'm not, this is not an outing for me. I need to, I need to want to get in and I want to get the hell out, right? And this is going to be true if you're a mother, if you're this, if you're that. So what you need is the right information highlighted to you so that you make the best decision for your family, ultimately, or yourself. And I think we shouldn't highlight calories. I really don't think we should. I think the numbers we need to highlight, but in a traffic light form, because that is easier, is probably the amount of protein, definitely the amount of fiber, the amount of free sugars.

1:04:52I think we could probably go with that and probably the amount of saturated fat. So if you told me three or four, then those are the four that I would highlight versus what is being highlighted now. Then you might think, well, how about salt? You know, how about this? Look, I think there are things to highlight. If you put too much information, I think what ends up happening is it may as well not have any information at all. I think the crucial pieces of information on the side of a pack should be protein, should be fiber, free sugars, priority. Then maybe saturated fats if you want to for color sort of traffic light.

1:05:25That is how I think we should be labeling our food. Which would be quite a huge shift. And Giles, if we were going to kind of really briefly wrap this up, essentially what we're saying and what you're saying here is that it's not that calories have absolutely no place whatsoever. but it's a slightly reductive piece of storytelling that's not wholly accurate and just tells you one piece of a very complex puzzle. And instead, there's lots of other things to think about. And what would you have as a sort of closing message to someone who's grown up, as I said, in this diet culture where calorie counting was so rife?

1:05:59And I think there are a lot of people who have a bit of a longstanding fear, essentially, of calories. What would you say to them in terms of trying to shift their mindset on? I would say worry about the quality of your diet rather than the quantity of your diet. And I think there's some very easy rules to do. And this will be suitable for whatever dietary approach you happen to take. And I think variety, variety, variety, variety, and eat as much whole foods as possible if you can. I mean, I think those are pretty much the easy rules to follow. Now, if you don't have that choice because you're lowered down socioeconomically, well, then that's certainly complex.

1:06:36but don't turn your nose up at tin food. Tin beans are just as good as dry beans. So I think there are ways of doing high protein and high fiber fancy like us, okay, or actually not so fancy. And so I think we need to tackle it in terms of food banks. I think we need to do it at all stages and at all levels socioeconomically within society. Amazing. Honestly, Giles, thank you so, so much. It just goes to show how much work we actually need to do in this country with nutritional education, going all the way down to the early years up. A lot of the fights I know that you and I have behind the scenes.

1:07:11And I know Ella, you work obviously in the food industry and you must see it day in, day out as well. And it's a battle I know that all of us are trying to do something for. So Giles, thank you for coming on the Wellness Scoop today. Thank you for having me.

1:07:28So I'm certainly taking a lot from today's episode. and I think Giles was the perfect guest to start with and I hope that has given you all a lot of inspiration in terms of thinking or rethinking the way that we generally think about food in our society. But that is all we have got time for today and thank you guys so much for tuning in. I would say, if I'm being honest, it's slightly, it's really exciting but also quite terrifying, this show because it is so much more about our personal opinions and in a way putting ourselves out there and I'm sure some people will like it and other people really won't and won't shy away from that either.

1:08:05But we would really love to hear from you and just I really want to leave you with the idea that this is your space for health, wellness, headlines, everything in between and we want it to feel positive and inspiring but also help us all let go of that noise that we don't need to distract us. That's not necessarily what health is about. You don't need to spend$2 million a year. You don't need to morning shed. No, this is just it. for me as well this is an opinion podcast which is also scary for me because I'm my whole life has been spent being the on the fence giving a before and against on both sides and a balanced view of things which I like and I am proud of the way that my career has grown in that way but it's lovely to be able to actually have a laugh and have fun and also give tangible advice so we're definitely going to see you next Monday please please subscribe and tune in and let us know if you like it and until then I guess just take care of yourself.

1:08:59Life is a bit tough right now. And just remember, small little things is a much better thing to do than a big leap of change, I think. Little wins, try and do one thing a day. Go to bed half an hour earlier. Add one different plant to your day this week. That's mine tonight, bed. I really struggle with that for some reason. There you go. See, we're going off onto the next episode. Ella, we'll see everyone next week. We'll see you next week.

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