The Extra Scoop: Protein. Myths, Marketing & What You Really Need

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0:59Welcome to The Extra Scoop, our expert-led bonus episodes, giving you the need to know on the topics everybody is talking about. That's right, from gut health to sleep, hormones to skin, we are cutting through the noise with top experts, so there is no fluff, just facts. Exactly, it's all quick, practical, evidence-based advice to fit into your busy lives. So this is The Extra Scoop, let's get started.

1:29hi guys so as you probably know by now our extra scoop episodes are just all about taking the topics everybody's talking about you're reading about everywhere and quickly breaking them down for you so that you've got short expert-led insights that leave you feeling informed and empowered when it comes to your well-being exactly we've spoken about the rise of protein a lot on the wellness scoop. I mean, the proteinification is the new word of the food industry. So this is why we wanted to deep dive into this with you guys for the extra scoop. And we are so excited to have Chris Cashin on, a highly experienced registered dietitian, registered nutritionist, and sports nutritionist with over 25 years in the field.

2:10So hello, Chris. Hello. It's very nice to be here. So Chris, welcome to the show. We are so happy to have you here. And I think before we get into the proteinification of the industry and what's happening and why we're all so buzzed about protein. I think it would be so helpful for people because they're probably hearing this word everywhere, but not necessarily knowing exactly what it is, what's the benefit. So could you give us a protein 101? Why is it important? Where does it come from? Why do we need it? Why do we need it? Well, it's important for muscle building. It rejuvenates all your cells.

2:42It's part of lots of the hormone enzyme systems. It also supplies you with some energy every day. And where do we find it? Well, it's in a variety of foods. So it's in things, the animal products, obviously, like meat and fish, eggs, cheese, milk. But it's also found in a lot of plant-based foods, the obvious ones that you might use like tofu and soy and all those kind of things. But I think what a lot of people forget is that things like pasta and bread and rice also contain quite considerable amounts of protein. So if you had an average portion of pasta or say two or three slices of bread, that contains about 10 grams of protein, which is something I think people perhaps don't understand.

3:25So it's in a variety of foods. Chris, I feel like you must be in hot demand right now with the proteinification of the world. Yeah, I think it's certainly something that lots of my students talk about all the time. And certainly, you know, working with clients, as you must find, really, that everybody's talking about it and I actually don't think anyone really understands where this has come from. Well, that's why we're here. Well, you know, I was thinking about this when you invited me on and funny enough, yesterday another dietician was talking about this and she was saying the same thing that all these macronutrients have gone around in circles, haven't they?

4:06We've had protein, fat, carbohydrate and as I've been at this for a long time, I've seen them all come and go. but this one feels very different because I think what's happened with this is that a lot of the food companies have jumped on the bandwagon haven't they and they've started adding protein to everything so I think this has just created a different feel to the whole thing I do worry about it because it feels as if everybody's talking about protein but they're not talking about the other nutrients as well well this is the thing isn't it I often wonder you know we've We always seem to focus on one area.

4:43Like you mentioned, we've had low carb, we've had low fat, now we've got high protein. And it does detract from things we should be achieving in the diet. So can I ask you why protein is important, of course, but is it really the first thing that we should be looking at on the label of a product instead of all the other bits? Well, I suppose it's difficult because I kind of think fats, protein and carbohydrate have equal merit. But the actual amount of protein that people need is not that great, really. Because if you look at the dietary reference values, and I know this is something a lot of our students question me about, why are our protein requirements, why do they go back to 1991 and beyond?

5:25That is very true. Why do they go back to 1991? Because they haven't changed them, have they? And so we only need 0.8 grams of protein per kilo. That's the sort of basic requirements. Of course, that doesn't take into account if you've got somebody who is doing a lot of exercise. So some of the athletes that I've worked with over the years, the amounts of protein that they require are huge, but they're exercising a lot. Chris, can I jump in there and just clarify because I think when you're saying people are exercising a lot, it's really helpful to understand what we mean by that. It sounds to me from what you're saying, you're talking about professional or amateur athletes who are doing serious training and serious amounts of movement versus the most of us office dwellers, more sedentary lifestyle.

6:13And then we're going hopefully to the gym or to an exercise class or running or doing some form of exercise a couple of times a week. But largely speaking, we're at our desk or we're kind of pottering around our house doing tasks? No, we probably don't need extra, although there is some evidence that perhaps as females, we might need a little bit more protein. So, it might go up to maybe 1.2 grams of protein per kilo. And also for older adults, there is quite a lot of evidence that perhaps the lower level of 0.8 is not enough to maintain muscle mass. So, we see this a lot in older adults that they develop sarcopenia where they're losing muscle.

6:55But a lot of that is to do with maybe the fact that they're not doing any exercise. You know, the government guidelines on exercise are 150 minutes per week with two 30-minute sessions of some kind of resistance weight type training. But in reality, most older adults don't do that. And a lot of younger people don't do that as well. So they're only doing sort of conventional running, maybe going to the gym, using a few of the maybe a few sessions on a cross trainer or on the treadmill. So their protein requirements are not going to be that high because actually, if you look at the difference between different athletes.

7:35So if you've got endurance runners, for instance, they don't need as much protein as somebody who maybe is a rugby player. So there's huge variation in the amount of protein that people need. Absolutely. I mean, the individual differences is, of course, huge. And this is why social media doesn't help this matter if we look at it. So, of course, we're not saying protein is bad. We all know protein is good. We need all these macronutrients to be healthy in the right amounts, but one gram per kilogram of body weight a day, everybody really is hitting that. So, what is your take on these viral Instagram posts that are saying we need to have at least 30 grams of protein per meal.

8:19What do you think of that? Well, interestingly, there was a paper published just about two weeks ago, it was a review that looked at this. And a lot of the evidence does suggest that between 20 and 30 grams of protein is the optimum amount for building muscle. But of course, most of the studies have been done on people who are doing quite heavy weight training. They've not been done on the likes of you and I. So we don't really have any hard evidence around this. But what I'm seeing is that lots of people are promoting, I saw one yesterday who was promoting 70 to 80 grams of protein in a meal.

9:01I see that the whole time. Yeah. And so apart from the fact that from the way I look at it as well. And I think as nutritionists, we're often trying to make meals sustainable, cut out all those ultra processed foods. And also, it's the cost. You don't need that amount of protein. You and I don't need that amount of protein. But surely there's more harm. 70 to 80 grams at every meal a day is excessive. I mean, I did some number crunching on this and sort of based it on, say, an average female who maybe waste between 65 and 70 kilos. So for that, if you base it on 1.2 grams of protein per kilo, they would need 78 to 84 grams of protein.

9:45But it seems to me - In a day. Yeah. But a lot of these influences are suggesting that we all need 160 grams of protein per day, which is almost double, isn't it? Yeah. Of the amount that you actually need. It seems to me that at the moment, all they seem to be promoting is one size fits all. Everybody needs that amount of protein. I don't need that. I'm probably like you. I take the dogs out for a walk. I might do a little run on the treadmill, do some weights, because as we get older, we need to be doing that. But I don't need that amount of protein. And apart from anything else, it's the cost.

10:23You know, if you think about it, they're promoting such huge amounts of protein. It's going to cost you a lot of money to maintain that amount of protein. Yes, I've often seen, because all our recipes are plant-based, people say, oh, my personal trainer has told me, and this is again a normal, well, I say normal, but someone who has a quite sedentary lifestyle at a desk most of the time. My personal trainer has told me I need 150 grams of protein a day, but I don't think I can do that if I'm veggie essentially. And you're like, yeah, you just don't need to do that. Full stop. And, you know, I think the evidence around where you get the protein from, it still doesn't really seem to make an awful lot of difference.

11:04Although there is some evidence that whey protein is absorbed faster. So I can see why people are using that. But again, I'm seeing people using it with everything. So they may be using it in a shake in the morning and then adding it to something else in the evening. so you know i think this is where a lot of the excessive amounts are coming from i just think it's really important to our listeners to remind people that sports nutrition is not public health nutrition because sports nutrition is so numerical it's very calculated based on the individual and you do need excessive amounts but what i'm also seeing chris is there's a lot of talk for females especially for women for menopause and that's also i think people calling it is it menow washing Ella?

11:48Is that the term? Yes. I think washing is being added to everything, isn't it? From green washing to menu washing. That's a new one. I hadn't heard that one. I think it's jumping on the menopause. I hate to say bandwagon, but I think it's, again, it's like all these marketing tricks of, you know, this will help sell because people are looking for solutions in this area. But again, I think, you know, some evidence suggests that women going through the menopause might need 1.2 grams of protein per kilo, but not the excessive amounts, again, that you would need if you were doing a lot of exercise.

12:22So some of those athletes that we work with who have very different requirements because they are exercising and doing lots of weight training sessions all day, every day, with maybe one day of rest. They're not doing the same as you and I are doing. But I think this is part of the problem, isn't it, with a lot of these influences that, again, they are suggesting that we need these huge amounts of protein that are a bit like an Olympic athlete needs. Yeah, you wouldn't find a registered nutritionist or dietitian that's actually registered with Association of Nutritional British Dietetic Association saying you need plus 30 grams of protein in a meal, I don't think, for the general public.

13:03So that's a big red flag for people to look for, because I see a lot of people saying, oh, for menopausal women, you need to be getting 40 grams in a meal. And they're doing this is my breakfast bowl. It has 40 grams of protein in it. And it's going viral and the followers are going up. And obviously, we've got the fight, Chris, of who is a health professional, especially in the nutrition world, who's regulated, who's not. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think, I mean, it's obviously, it's what we talk about the whole time is just trying to distill this cacophony, this extraordinary world west of information down into like, for all of us, everyone listening, we're busy, we're juggling lots of different things, lots of different responsibilities.

13:41And you just need to kind of simply distill it of this is what to worry about. And this is what not to worry about. And the good news is what not to worry about. It's a bigger section of things than what to worry about. But one question I'm sure people have is, again, there's people comparing kind of animal-based protein to plant-based protein. The question of kind of complete and incomplete protein. And I wondered if you could clear that up for people as well. Yeah, I mean, we've got these essential amino acids that we need to consume on a daily basis. And we get those from the animal-based products.

14:12But the plant-based products are a bit of a mixed bag, really, because some plant-based products contain some of the amino acids, but not all of them. But having a mixture of lots of different plant-based foods will give you all those amino acids. And you can manage perfectly well as a vegan or a vegetarian and still build muscle. So I think, you know, as long as you have a wide variety, I think that's really important. I mean, I certainly, I'm a meat eater, but I made myself learn a lot more about plant-based diets. And I think I've realized that the two go hand in hand, don't they? You can still consume animal products if you want to, but you can be perfectly healthy as a plant-based eater, as long as you make sure you have a wide variety.

15:04Now, I think it's always interesting because I think in my neck of the woods in South Wales, We're not very good with things like beans and pulses. I mean, sometimes when I say to clients, do you eat them? Then they'll say, yeah, I eat baked beans and that's about it. So I think it's encouraging people to be a bit more adventurous as well, you know, trying different things. You know, I certainly think that some of the cookbooks around now have got a lot more plant-based ideas, haven't they? I think I listened to a student this week talking about a research project she'd done on herself as a vegetarian for a month and what she'd learned about it.

15:43And I think, you know, probably as health care professionals, we probably do need to learn a bit more about it. I love that, Chris. I'm going to send you the plant-based book. I think what's so interesting about what you've just said is that you can be an unhealthy meat eater just as much as a healthy meat eater. And the problem we've got with the fixation on protein is that people assume, oh, well, if you are an omnivore and you consume animal produce, therefore you're healthy because you're hitting protein targets. But then they're lacking the fiber. Yes. It's hitting a balance, isn't it? And it's interesting, as much as I don't like the Eat Well Guide, I think it does give you a sort of a base, doesn't it, to follow from.

16:22But interestingly, some studies have shown that only 1 % of the population actually follow it. wow one percent one percent yeah doesn't surprise me actually because our diets are so poor at the moment in in the uk in general so is there anything negative chris about having too much so can there be poor side effects for these individuals online that are promoting well in excess of you know let's say the 70 gram you just mentioned at each meal yeah i think the thing is if you are having too much protein then obviously if you're not using it to build muscle you're going to start using it for energy.

16:57And so there is a possibility, and I have seen this in practice, that some people who are consuming large quantities are gaining weight as a result of it. Also, there's no evidence that it causes damage to your kidneys unless you've got a undenying health condition, maybe like type 2 diabetes where you've got some renal impairment. but there is some evidence that it can contribute to gout and also to kidney stones. So, you know, I think it is also important to consider that. Protein powders also appearing like a health halo because we know they're convenient, but do they really need to be a daily item?

17:41No. When I first started working in sports nutrition, I was really against protein powders, But I can see there is a benefit if you've done quite a heavy workout and you need some fuel afterwards with some carbohydrate. There are some quite good protein powders around. But what I'm finding in practice is that people are throwing whey protein in particular into absolutely everything. So they're making pancakes in the morning with it, smoothies with it. They're throwing it into all sorts of other things. And so they're consuming large quantities. And again, going back to your new project with ultra-processed foods, a lot of these protein powders are highly processed and they've got loads of colorings and additives in them to make them stable.

18:28And the vast majority of them taste awful. So, you know, I think from that point of view, you know, people need to look at the amount they're having because I think people are consuming far too much of them. and they're expensive if we're going back to the cost side as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such an important point. And I think it's not to forget it, but it's one of those things when people are talking about this all online or, you know, in the news at the moment, it is so easy to bypass that. And I think it's not talked about enough, but to get to your point, 70 grams in a meal, like you've, you are, it's not cheap and you're not going to do that with tins of lentils, you know, which are those sorts of ingredients, which are obviously much cheaper.

19:10And I guess to close, Chris, for people who are feeling overwhelmed, because I think if you do exist online, you are on Instagram, Facebook, et cetera, TikTok, and you are engaged in any shape or form in the world of health and wellness, you will be inundated with protein content at the moment. And it's so difficult to know who to follow, what to trust, particularly when you see very attractive, slim people in sports bras telling you to do this, to be totally frank. What are your kind of two takeaways for people listening of how to distill that information to ensure they're getting the amount of protein that they need for their health, but not overcomplicating it?

19:52I think maybe look at some of the other people who are online, like there are a lot of registered nutritionists and dietitians who are now posting quite a lot about protein and other foods as well I would follow them because they would give you good advice that's based on evidence because we like some evidence don't we and you know ask them questions because I think a lot of the people who I see posting as nutritionists and dieticians are quite happy to answer questions and buy some books that will actually explain all this to you. You know, my students use your books, Rhi, because I think they're so easy to read.

20:37And I would recommend something like that to people. Go and get something that is evidence-based and don't totally rely on a lot of these influencers who clearly have no qualifications, which is something that's really close to my heart. I know. Can I throw in one more point, which actually might be quite controversial and I don't want it to come across in the wrong way. So I have a huge respect for doctors, but they don't have a lot of them, the nutritional education. And some in particular may go on to do a bit of further education in nutrition. But you see, there's a big tide of turn. Ella's smiling at me because she knows exactly what I'm talking about.

21:13I heard recently a doctor say that the leading cause of sarcopenia and the problems we have in the Western world is because we're not eating enough protein. It was quite a stark remark. And it actually, it's very confusing for people because when you've got mainstream doctors that aren't, that maybe only have one year in nutrition versus hours six or seven, you know, however many placements and whatever we've done over time, making claims about this, it confuses the public massively. What's your take on this information, drastic claims like bone densities linked to our lack of protein? It's not as simple as that, is it?

21:57I mean, part of the problem, I think, is lack of exercise. And this stems right from when you're very small children. I mean, certainly in the university I work for, we're doing a lot of work on physical literacy where children are not meeting their milestones in terms of, you know, hopping, skipping, jumping, that kind of thing. Then it goes right through, you know, teenage years to adult years. We know that only 30 % of the population are exercising. And so it's bound to manifest itself, isn't it? As you get older, you're not doing any exercise. So you're starting to lose muscle, then you're starting to become frail and then you start falling over and breaking bones and no matter how much protein you put in that will not reverse muscle building so you know I think it's got to be both things and we've got to look at protein and educating the public on just being active yeah and maybe doing some a weight routine yeah but it doesn't have to be in the gym you can do it at home yeah Oh, thank you, Chris.

23:06And of course, you know, it's not just protein, guys. It's the calcium, the phosphorus, the vitamin D. It's everything, isn't it? And that's why we need really, I suppose, to look at your diet as a whole and, you know, not just focus on one particular food. We need to look at everything. I think that's such great advice because it's also so reassuring and so much more doable for people in their busy, busy lives is to take that slightly more rounded view where you don't have to get so stressed about how to formulate a meal. Because I think when you are trying to hit 50, 70 grams in a meal, that's quite stressful in terms of, and also you start like literally weighing and calculating your food, which again, I think, I mean, it's certainly a kind of massive passion point of mine.

23:48I think for people to eat well, you've got to enjoy it. And that's the only way for healthy habits to stick. And when you start to feel like things have to become so scientific to put together your breakfast or your lunch, because it's got to be in certain proportions. I think it just, it sucks quite a lot of the spontaneity and joy and fun, doesn't it? It does. And I guess what we need to do as well is get people cooking again. Exactly. Chris, we're so, so grateful for your time today. Thank you ever so much for sharing your wisdoms on The Extra Scoop today. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening to us on The Extra Scoop.

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