The Extra Scoop: Should We Eat 30 Plants a Week?

0:00At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads.

0:36Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

0:48Welcome to The Extra Scoop, our expert-led bonus episodes, giving you the need to know on the topics everybody is talking about. That's right. From gut health to sleep, hormones to skin, we are cutting through the noise with top experts. So there is no fluff, just facts. Exactly. It's all quick, practical, evidence-based advice to fit into your busy lives. So this is The Extra Scoop. Let's get started.

1:17As so many of our listeners probably know by now, our Extra Scoop episodes are all about taking those topics that everyone's talking about, you keep seeing everywhere, and just quickly breaking them down for you. so that you have got expert-led insights that leave you feeling very informed and most importantly empowered when it comes to your well-being. And this week we are diving into the topic that has got so much momentum in the world of nutrition and that is eating 30 plants. You might have seen on social media, heard it mentioned by various health experts or even spotted things like plant points on food packaging.

1:47But what does it actually mean? So many of you have been asking and that is why we're going to cover it today. And to help us understand the science behind this approach and Why It Matters, we are joined by Dr. Federica Amati, who is a registered nutritionist, nutrition topic lead at Imperial College London's Facility of Medicine and head of nutrition science at Well-Founded Health. She's also the author of Recipes for a Better Menopause and the Sunday Times bestseller, Everybody Should Know This. With over a decade of experience in public health and personalised nutrition, welcome to the show.

2:19Thank you so much for having me. It's so good to be here with both of you. Oh, we've been so excited to have you on. And I know there's so many topics circulating now that we could probably pick your brains on, Fede, but let's start with the 30 plants. I think it's something you write about in your books. There's knowledge that spans across the lifespan, Ethan. So what exactly does 30 plants a week mean and how does it work? So it really starts with thinking about the wider literature where there's so much evidence around the benefits of increasing plant intake and plant diversity. Now, the 30 plants a week message comes from a study which Professor Tim Spector was part of that tried to understand what factors in our diet help to support the healthiest gut microbiome.

3:06So, this is the American and British Gut Project. And within this population of thousands of adults, they found that people who reported eating more than 30 plants a week had the most beneficial gut microbiome profile. So the 30 plants a week message came from this study and the excitement surrounding it, because it helped us to explain what mediating factor, the microbiome, is working to improve health with increased plant intake. Now, the study itself was an observational study, it wasn't an RCT. So it's not that it brought something brand new to light that we didn't understand before. It's more that the message of 30 plants a week helps us to achieve what lots of other science has shown us, which is that increasing your plant intake, increasing the variety of whole foods and whole plants specifically has a direct beneficial impact on health.

4:04And the American and British gut study just pointed to one of the mediators, which is the gut microbiome. We know a lot more now as to why the gut microbiome mediates this. We understand that just like a zoo, our gut microbes, each animal, each type of microbe likes different food. So if you only eat a small variety of fibres, you're probably not feeding all the beneficial microbes because you need to have a really good variety of fibre-rich foods to feed all the good guys, basically. So that's the science. So there's dozens and dozens and dozens of studies on why we should be increasing plant intake.

4:43We all know that the average UK adult gets about 18 grams of fiber per day, which is what we recommend for four-year-olds, when the minimum dietary requirement is actually 30 grams a day. So we are living through a fiber deficiency crisis. And the 30 plant a week message helps people to engage in a way to increase their fiber intake and their plant intake, which is actually quite fun and easy to understand. And I think that's why it's actually really powerful. I think that's why it's resonating so much with people. As you said, it feels like a shortcut to a complicated topic. That's very, it's almost gamifying it, isn't it?

5:18But it feels very understandable. I was curious, do you feel like 30 plants a week should replace or is replacing the five a day message? Because as you said, the 30 plants is encouraging you to have that wide variety as opposed to five a day where that's brilliant and obviously something that most people genuinely struggle to do. So it's not to do it down, but equally you could have the same five fruit and veg every single day. And whilst that would be better than not doing it, you're not going to get the same benefit as 30 plants a week. So I think that's a really good question. And I think the difference is the five a day was aimed to help people with portion size as well.

5:55whereas the 30 a week is really aimed at increasing diversity and recommending just a much wider repertoire in our diets of plants i actually think that five a day just needs to be reimagined a bit so instead of just saying five a day any five a day from the data we have looking at global dietary risk factors the five a day i would like people to focus on is actually increasing whole grains, increasing nuts and seeds, increasing omega-3 rich foods. So walnuts, chia, fatty fish, a few fish, increasing the amount of fresh whole fruit that we eat and increasing pulses, lentils, beans. Those are my five a day.

6:39Now, I think if everybody managed to eat like a handful of those every day, we'd be doing really well, but the two are kind of, they can live together. I do think though, Ella, that 30 plants a week has seen much more engagement than the five a day sort of message has. We know that people find it quite tricky to just like reach the five a day, whereas people are getting really creative with 30 plants a week. You know, spices are being reintroduced into people's cooking. People are using herbs and even just simply chopping some garlic and onion into your recipes. So I think they serve different purposes.

7:13They were designed for different things, but they're not competing with each other. Both are good. I would just upgrade the five a day. It's a really good message. But could we talk about the portion sizes involved in that as well? Because I'm sure a lot of people, we've had it drummed into us over the years, calorie counting, weighing everything out. You know, when people are conducting this research, so when Professor Tim Spector and his team, you know, when you're looking at this and you say, well, just chuck in some garlic or chuck in some onion, I think people then automatically might go, but how much counts?

7:43Yeah. So we're actually doing a really big piece of work on this at Zoe, looking at what is the portions that we can recommend that have an impact, like a physiological impact. And a lot of it, there's again, lots of science that people have done. So for example, the Singapore study, you know, used two teaspoons of mixed spice, curry spice per day as an intervention. So I think when we're thinking about what portion sizes should people go for? Well, I think just adding as much as you want at the beginning is a good start. And then when we think about each type of food, you know, a handful of berries, a palm sized portion of any kind of fruit or veg.

8:20And then when we talk about spices and herbs, it turns into pinches and teaspoons is a good way to think about how you might cook with it. We also published a paper just quite recently on the gut microbiome composition of people who are omnivorous, vegan, vegetarian, so different dietary patterns. And actually, again, that paper, which was very detailed, showed that the number of plants you eat per day, the amount of plant foods you have is the best predictor for gut microbiome diversity with a healthy profile. So gut microbes that support good health. So we're moving closer to understanding the exact portions, but Rhi you know this I think it's important for people to stop obsessing over precise amounts and numbers and actually it's about what can you add into your plate that's going to support your health and then try and eat in a way that your body needs that day because I'm hungrier today than I will be tomorrow because maybe this today I'm more active so it says about precise for science it's important to understand the dosing but I think for people in their cooking and their eating.

9:27It's just add in more plants, add in the variety. If writing them down and getting to 30 per week makes you engage with that in a good way, then great. And also I think thinking about 30 plants a week helps people to think, okay, so it's not just your banana, your orange, your lettuce, your carrot, and your cucumber. What else can you have? What fresh herbs can you add? What dried spices can you add? What lentils or beans or mixed seeds? You know, I think what's really cool is that the mixed seeds and the mixed lentils and the mixed beans also tend to be more affordable in stores. They actually cost less than if you're buying the walnut, the cashew and the almond or whatever.

10:04So that's a very quick way to actually increase your diversity and save some money, which is great. I love it. And also, but I think what's, as you said, it's not about obsessing about exactly what you're doing, but equally, I think it is reassuring knowing that teaspoon or that two teaspoons of turmeric you've added to your curry, that counts as one, because actually I think that's been one of the confusions certainly I've seen from people because with five a day, it was X grams was required to tick it off your five. And so I think certainly from what I've seen, people have been nervous to say, oh yes, adding, you know, making a curry paste and packing it with turmeric and cumin and ginger and garlic, et cetera, that those would all count towards your 30.

10:42And so I think it's actually a really positive message to 30 plants, because I think when you start looking at that, getting there feels that bit more achievable. I was curious, is there a kind of exponential benefit of going over 30? So if you get to 60 plants a week, have you got double the benefit? Yeah, that's a really good question. So in the same study of the American and British gut project, there was like a plateauing after like 35-ish. So there was this real from sort of 10 plants per week, which is actually the average in the UK. So we're really quite low. As you increase plant intake, there's this exponential benefit for every plant you add.

11:18you get to 30 and it's like wow this is great and then about 35 it starts to plateau so obviously this is just in one population but we think that there's never going to be too many plants but after about yeah 30 35 that this really obvious benefit in the increase starts to plateau and i find that such a helpful message that adding in not taking out approach and as we know in this country, we seem to be protein obsessed and not as obsessed with 30 plants as I'd like. And before we jumped on this chat, Fetty, what was the stat you had? Basically, people are becoming more and more keen on buying high protein foods.

11:59The stat that I found today, which I didn't know, was that there's an increase in search and sales for chicken breast since last year. So 20 % increase in actual sales and 43 % increase in search. And the other thing I find really sort of worrying is the wrong word, but I find it sad, I guess, is that shoppers are willing to spend an extra 20 % on products that have a high protein claim on front of pack. Even if that's like a high protein ice cream, which is what are we doing with high protein ice creams. Ice cream should not be where you're getting your best quality protein from. I think let's make that clear.

12:38Yeah, there's this real focus on protein. And a lot of people actually don't know that plants contain all of the amino acids, including all of the essential amino acids in different amounts. So there's no need to have to massively increase your animal protein to get complete proteins. If you have a variety of plants in your diet, you will be getting more protein. So the more plants you eat, the more amino acids you get. And actually by focusing on increasing and improving the quality of the diet and the variety, you'll also be supporting your protein intake. And let's be super clear, the majority of you adults in the UK and the US are getting enough protein if they're eating enough food.

13:20So it's not really something to worry about. Whereas, as I said at the beginning, nine out of 10 of us are completely fiber deficient, like getting nowhere near the minimum recommended daily amount of 30 grams a day. It's so important. And the health benefits, if we go back to the magic 30 number, what are the biggest benefits, I guess, of increasing this diversity? So is it the link with our brain, our heart? Yeah. So the evidence on increasing plant intake generally covers cardiovascular health is a big one, right? So we know that you can reduce your risk of heart disease. You can reduce the risk of having high blood cholesterol, of having high blood pressure, by eating more plants and more fiber with those plants.

14:01So there's so much, I won't even bore you with the evidence of it, but the way the mechanism by which it works is really interesting because essentially as we eat more plants and more fiber, that helps to clear cholesterol out of our system because our liver actually feeds cholesterol back into the gut when it clears it from our circulation. So it's really important that we eat enough fiber to essentially capture that excess cholesterol and poo it out. Now, if we don't do that, it will be reabsorbed later down in the colon. And this is where we then see elevated cholesterol. So lowering cholesterol is one of the biggest and most well-researched benefits of having a higher plant intake, a higher fiber diet.

14:40We also know that it improves blood pressure. Now, there's dual mechanism there. In part, it's to do with its role with the gut microbiome, which mediates metabolites that actually help with blood pressure. but also plants are really high in potassium, which basically balances out sodium. So if you remember back in the day when we did the iron balance and having a high potassium diet, which comes from plants, helps to reduce the negative impacts of sodium on blood pressure. So increasing the variety of plants you eat is straight away going to help with improving your blood pressure. And there's loads of clinical trials and loads of data to show that.

15:19It also helps with preventing and managing type 2 diabetes. So if you have a metabolic condition, increasing your fiber intake, increasing the variety of plants that you eat will help you to manage that. And it's important to note the variety there because as well as fiber, each different plant contains a different profile of bioactive compounds. Now, bioactive compounds include things like polyphenols, but there's lots of classes of them. And there's hundreds of bioactive compounds in plants. And some bioactives are only found in their combination in different plants. So if you expand your repertoire, again, you're introducing these bioactives that have direct impact on your blood vessel function, on your brain health, on reducing systemic inflammation.

16:03So it's the colors and the variety, eat the rainbow, 30 plants a week helps you to capture as many of these bioactives as possible in your diet. And we also, of course, very importantly know that increasing fiber intake, increasing plant diversity and number of plants in the diet helps with cancer reduction of risk and recurrence. So it's important for patients who have survived cancer as well to remember that there's real power in increasing their plant intake once they've gone through treatment and recovered under the care of their clinical team. So you can reduce the risk of our biggest killers.

16:42And it can also help, of course, with weight management. And we've talked about the impact it has on the gut microbiome. So the gut microbiome absolutely thrives off a variety of different plants to eat. So to support it and its functions with the gut-brain axis, the gut-heart axis, all the different axes that it directly influences, we need to feed it a variety of plants. And then to finish, I think when we look at the longest living populations in the world, and when we look at specific tribes that actually have this really high plant diversity and fiber intake, they're the ones that tend to have the least diet related chronic diseases.

17:20They're the ones that tend to die, not die prematurely. So these are all diets that are based on a variety of plants are very high in fiber. Yeah. So hopefully this, this is a good recap of why we should eat more plants. It is a seriously good recap. And not to kind of open Pandora's box, because I think we're trying to keep this episode short. We could probably be here for about four hours on the back of this question, but I can't not ask it. In your opinion, obviously being so deeply embedded in the world of health, wellbeing, nutrition, science, I'm very curious your take on why we cannot get this message through to the kind of collective population, to the government, to the way that we have access to food, to the way that kind of schools, hospitals, prisons, like to the general food system that we have in this country.

18:13But again, across most of the Western world, when the data is so unequivocal that we desperately need your 30 plants a week, you know, you're at high intake of plants, infinitely more fiber, and a very, very plant-rich diet. Why do you think it is that we just, I mean, it's great, there's more people engaging in this, but it's a bigger and bigger echo chamber. Why do you think that it's not public health message number one? Yeah, I actually think public health message is to increase your plant intake, but no one's listening. So I would say that the public health message is clear. You need to have a variety of plants, eat whole grains.

18:56It's actually all on the eat well plate as well eat well plate can do with an update but it's in there eat whole fruits five a day all these things have been put out by public health bodies and you don't have to look far it's not new evidence it's not new science but if the problem is the engagement with it so people aren't really engaging with public health messaging and I think there's lots of reasons for it first of all misinformation is rife so there is a loud a loud, loud voice of people who fly in the face of public health recommendations and use very good marketing tactics to make that very appealing.

19:34So there's unfortunately this growth in people who will say, they're lying to you. I'm right. Broccoli is killing you. I've literally, there is literally, I'm not going to name who it is, but there's literally a clip. It's like, broccoli is actually killing you. And I'm like, what? So there's this rise in this very anti-science like i'll tell you the truth they're all lying to you and you know the irony is is that people who work in public health are very mission driven and they're really trying to make a difference it doesn't pay well like you have to study for years and years and then this happens which is which is quite demoralizing so it's the public health message isn't cutting through there's a lot of misinformation also we know that you know nutrition education has only just made it onto the medical curriculum in the past sort of five years so i think one of the biggest problems is that healthcare providers don't feel well-equipped or educated enough to actually give advice.

20:27And most often, the public comes into contact with their GP, like A &E doctors, if they have to go to A &E, and their dentists, they're actually the healthcare professionals that they see the most. Then there's teachers that have a huge role to play, nurses. So I think there's education, public health messaging needs to compete with misinformation at this point, We need to figure out a way to make our message as marketingly compelling without being wrong, without being incorrect. And I think that there is obviously a big, big part to play for policy. So our government needs to step in. Until this point, the priority has been economic growth and encouraging industry to grow here.

21:11And whilst obviously that has benefits for the economy, there's got to be a balance. So now we need more policy that's there to protect public health, because at the moment, supermarkets have no cap on how many unhealthy processed foods are allowed to sell. There's no policy to say that actually you can't put a fast food outlet across the road from a primary or secondary school. So we're not protecting public health with the laws that are in place because there aren't any. So even the 9pm watershed ban for adverts on television, children don't see adverts on television. They see them on social media, on streaming platforms.

21:51It's like, yeah, first step, but it's about 10 years too late. nowadays the way that these companies and that food advertising is targeting young people is through other means so it's just we just need to be much quicker with taking really decisive action and it's not something that's not been done so i always encourage people to look to other countries that are doing better than us where they have nutritionists in schools designing the actual school meals where they have a ban on how many unhealthy foods can be sold on shelves and supermarkets where they actually subsidize healthy foods and encourage the sales of healthy foods.

22:28So you get the two for one on veg and like chickpeas instead of two for one on crisps and biscuits, right? So you can do it, but we need the political will to do it. And we also need to make sure that public health messaging is compelling and people can engage with it. I mean, I teach medical students, Ella, and I say to them, why do you think the Eat Well plate hasn't worked? and so many reasons you can't really tell what you're supposed to eat by looking at it so it's not actually easy to interpret okay what what does that mean in terms of actual meals what does it mean in terms of my shopping list so creating different ways for people to adapt this information into their lives it's not very culturally relevant for a lot of people we live in a really diverse amazing society right so you have to try and make sure that it's culturally relevant to everyone include foods for all populations there's lots of ways we can improve this so you know i think the work that you know people like you guys are doing making media that is mainstream but is evidence-based is super important and we just need to keep doing it and help people to be able to critically appraise what they're seeing online giving them an understanding of some of these marketing tactics that people use to make them seem like the answer can really help people to discern like is this person actually worth following or like is their advice sound or is it something I should maybe question which I think is a really important tool it's so hard and what you've just said that last point because we've discussed this previously but it's almost the psychology again of the nutrition in this country it's the culture in this country it's the occasions that are linked to the type of food that's consumed and it's breaking down all of these normal stereotypes that we have you know we discussed before on another episode that you know every school trip will have a ham sandwich in it you know there's no other option of oh let's take a hummus pot you know it's just no that there just doesn't seem to be any of this type of action but for people to decipher when someone is so convincing feddy like we know who we're talking about and they can waltz down a supermarket aisle or sell their own powders and potions because they sometimes the people themselves delivering these messages truly believe in what they're saying so the conviction that comes across when they deliver these statements around food is huge but for people listening before we go off on a tangent because we're all very passionate about this area completely what about somebody that's starting from scratch okay so you're listening and you're thinking okay i'm going to give 30 plants a go do you have any top tips yes i think start off by there's lots of resources online you can find some lists of course we've written a cookbook which is the food for life cookbook which has loads of ideas of really really plant diverse recipes and we share a lot of those on our social as well but start by just listing out what you're currently using or eating so like just it may be in your phone open the new notes or whatever or text it to your best mate or someone you know, someone you love and just write down what you're eating at the moment.

25:42And you'll see like the list of plants come up. And some people might be surprised, actually, I'm eating more plants than I thought. That's really cool. But once you have that baseline list, you can then start to think, okay, what else could I add? If I'm eating carrots at the moment, could I introduce some different types of peppers, red peppers, orange peppers, yellow peppers, or if I'm having cucumber in my sandwich, could I add some spring onions? So like start gradually, just start by looking at where you could add in. I think one of the simplest things to do is to switch from buying single beans to mixed beans, mixed lentils, and the mixed whole grain pouches, you know, the ones that you just whack in, boil them up in about 12 minutes, and they're ready to go.

26:21And they have three or four grains in them. So just start also buying products that make it easier to do that. So these mixed products, and then keep a list. If you then find yourself hitting 30 or getting close to 30, I think really important here to say that, you know 24 25 26 27 is still great like just seeing that increase it's not you don't have to hit 30 every week and then look around and see what plants have you never tried do you want to maybe try and cook an aubergine dish or have you thought about introducing sorrel into your dishes there's so many also we're going into spring now so there's way more variety of plants even that are native to the uk that you can get go to the farmer's market buy something you've never bought before or just the supermarket and find something you haven't bought before and give it a go so just be adventurous explore as i said a lot of people like keeping a list just to visualize it or you can buy pre-made like sort of tick box lists which lots of people on the internet have created because they've engaged so well with the message uh so yeah i think start one step at a time and one day at a time and make this a fun experiment it's not there to feel like a another target you have to hit it's more there to help guide us to increasing the variety of plants that we're eating it's just a reminder like what can i add actually that i haven't tried or i love using seasonality as a super easy way to increase diversity so i will look at the seasonality lists or i'll go on the like seasonal i shop online so i always go to like seasonal produce and see what's come up what's new and then add that in and eat that so you know celeriac is a good example for winter it's like just add that back in when it's in season at the moment there's artichokes obsessed i love artichokes so there's lots of things you can just add back in uh seasonally as well and if not really let's not forget ella we all grew up with eat the rainbow didn't we what a simple way to do it like just if you love colors and you're more inclined to do that just try and get a color like a different color of everything as much as you can it's such good advice honestly and it as you said it makes it sound so simple it's about adding in not taking out starting with the recipes or the foods the meals you're already really comfortable with and just adding one extra thing to that and I think it's in the world that we live in and the kind of food culture the diet industry I think the temptation is to change everything overnight to make these sweeping gestures which is so difficult when life feels overwhelming whereas if you look at what you have and you do, you add in some sunflower seeds to something you're already eating, or you add in some berries to your breakfast, I think you'd be amazed at how quickly something would add up.

29:04Yeah. I mean, the mixed frozen berries are such a flex. I use them all the time. And also like mixed spices. So if you're not someone who's comfortable with using spices and you don't really know when to use cumin or when to use oregano, or, you know, just buy the pre-mixed, the sort of mixed, you know, Italian mix, the curry mixed spice, buy those and just add them to your food and see how it improves flavor. It like basically almost inevitably does. Yeah. It like transforms a whole meal. And Fede, I just love what you've said. And I think your kind of nutritionist geeky thing is to look at the seasonality of the produce.

29:38I thought that was brilliant because actually it is there guys. So everyone listening, when you shop online, Ocado has that section, doesn't it? I think. And it's so cool because it might be something you've never heard of. And often, I mean, general rule of thumb from someone who is not a chef here, if you just peel and blitz anything, you can shove it in a frying pan with some olive oil. Generally, you can try something new. Yeah. And it's often such simple that it's not hard to make, right? So any type of leafy green, you can apply the same. I'm not a chef either. I think it's really important that people realize that I am a 10 minute meal person.

30:15Like I am not, I think we're all actually very similar on this. Ella is too, aren't you baby? Yeah, a hundred percent. I've seen Ella, I've seen your recipes. They are right up my street. I'm like, yes, this is my kind of cooking. And it's all about if you're making a leafy green that you've never made before, maybe you've got some turnip greens. Great. Same principle, like bit of garlic, extra virgin olive oil, throw them in just a little, like a drop of water, cover them, bit of salt if you like chili add some chili and you've got some wilted delicious greens with a bit of garlic within about seven minutes i love that and before we finish olive oil is also a plant point isn't it this is a really good question so it depends if you're looking at the bioactive compounds or if you're looking at fiber as well so i actually i'm extra virgin olive oil is something we should all try to incorporate into our diet and it's beneficial in ways that lots of other foods can't claim to be.