The Protein Divide, The Optimism Effect & Britain’s Favourite Veg

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0:53Welcome to The Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration. and as always we're both here as your hosts I'm Ella Mills and I'm Rhiannon Lambert and after a decade in the wellness industry we know that it can be incredibly overwhelming and confusing and that's why this podcast is here to cut through the noise and make healthier living simple fun and personal. Exactly that and Rhiannon what have we got coming up in today's show? Okay in today's show we have got the protein divide gosh and what the latest heart health guidance actually says are we falling out of love with a veggie lifestyle new data shows some interesting trends the optimism effect and how mindset shapes physical health and then Britain's favorite vegetables ranked for nutrition and gut health and the trend of the week we've got today cosmeticorexia the growing pressure to optimize appearance

1:55first ella what have you been up to this week well do you know what spoiler we always record on a monday ready for this next monday so we're doing it very much um semi in real time i'd say but we're recording two weeks early because i think we're both away next week we're away celebrating our 10-year wedding anniversary so we are off yeah I know we're off to Sicily with the kids obviously um for a romantic trip but yeah I can't believe it so yeah that's my personal news oh that's so lovely 10-year wedding I've never been to Sicily I've always wanted to go how beautiful yeah I'm so excited so we go in a couple of days we've got five days there um I can't wait lovely do you know i've been really totally different from sicily topic but i've been sharing the artemis journey with the kids you know the uh space shuttle that has gone the furthest um is it that the people the astronauts have gone the furthest they've ever traveled away from planet earth before in a different direction around the moon this is the the furthest that humans have ever been from planet earth i mean round trip of something like 700 000 miles i have been so emotionally invested obviously we're recording this on the Monday and the astronauts landed back um Friday night so it will be two weeks by the time this actually comes out but it's kind of yeah just happened as we record this I have been obsessed with it I honestly I woke up on Saturday morning and it was like 5 30 in the morning and I was like oh my gosh oh my gosh I had this like trepidation opening up the news to see like they've landed safely and I I honestly bawled my eyes out.

3:33It's just this crazy intersection of kind of faith, belief, curiosity, scientific discovery, just amazing innovation all coming together. And it's just the epicentre of that. It's just extraordinary. It really is. And my eldest asked me, mummy, how fast does that spaceship go? And I looked it up 30 ,000 miles per hour, Ella. it's unthinkable and it brings you back to remembering we are essentially like a tiny ant on this planet when you look at space I almost don't like thinking about it I find it hard to conceptualize because I don't like the idea that I have no control really I actually love it do you I find the whole idea of us floating in the unknown abyss really I just I it's hard to even put it into words how to describe how that makes you feel I find it really soothing it's like you're so small that you know you might as well let go and we're stressing over these things that are so like minuscule in the kind of state of the universe and actually interestingly read that she brings the calm she brings the gut but that's what the female astronaut said she said the thing that struck her most almost from the whole experience when she was doing a press conference afterwards was actually looking back down at earth and the smallness of earth in the kind of black abyss and I don't know I think it's actually in a way like a really reassuring and calming perspective like the world's going on around us and the universe is going on around us and we get so het up and so stuck in our little day-to-day to-do lists.

5:09So I like that approach I think I need to adopt that because my head was spiraling this goes to show where our different thought processes go into the scary environmental challenges at the moment that are going on in relation to obviously different wars that are imploding and things happening on the planet. And the fact we only get one planet Earth and we are not looking after it. You know, there's species of penguins now for the first time that haven't survived because of global warming over Antarctica. And there's a lot going on in the world. And when I think about planet earth being this very special place.

5:44I just feel we need to all remember that sometimes that we are just a tiny ant and we have to do our job to look after it as well. But that's where my brain goes, Ella. I want to lean into the calm side now. Have you started tapping yet? Do you know, I haven't. And it's on my agenda this week. This week, finally, everyone's back at school. I feel I can focus and really get my head stuck down into new projects. I've got the new Retrition Plus area launching any day now. And I just cannot wait to be able to offer. By the way, there's a link to that in the bio if you want to sign up to the nutrition space.

6:21But it is, I just want to get stuck in now, Ella. I feel like that time, you know, after Easter holidays, when you're back in April, May is emerging. And do you feel like you've got this maximum opportunity to really do what you want to achieve that year? I totally agree. Well, I can't wait for you. Here we go. So Ella, headlines that matter this week.

6:42Right, we promised you this last week, guys. We are going to be talking about all sorts of different things. But before we do that, we're going to have a bit of a pickup, which is on that conversation we said where plant-based eating appears to be getting less popular. So some new stats that came out from YouGov very, very recently showed that vegans, vegetarians have dropped from 10 % of the population in 2021 to 7 % in 2026. And at the same time meat consumption is rising again 73 percent of adults now identifying as meat eaters which is up from 66 percent in 2021 the great thing i would say is there's a clear shift towards a flexitarian middle ground with around half of people now eating mostly plant-based but including some animal products which you know that's gray but more on that behavior change over half of office workers say they've increased meat or fish intake and one in four say they used to be vegetarian but no longer are and the key drivers appear to be that this obsessive protein narrative I'm going to call it obsessive because I think that's what it looks like online I'm not saying everyone doing this is obsessive and some concerns as well that plant-based diets rely too heavily on ultra processed foods or could miss key nutrients so yeah it's really interesting no I completely and utterly agree and I actually turned down discussing this on the news because I think there's so many more nuances and I don't think it's a positive thing to be discussing if I'm being completely honest when a fifth of adults get their five a day, when 4 % of us are hitting our fiber goals, when we know we're not eating enough plants, we know our health is getting worse and I don't really want and I would have said these things of course on a news feature but it's very hard that you're not usually given the time are you to delve into those sorts of nuance it so I actually turn this one down Ella because I do not see this as a positive thing apart from the flexitarian angle I find it kind of worrying no no look I totally hear that and I think I said this last week when we mentioned this data point I think where I sit it's just this real frustration and I think it's very very symptomatic of the health and wellness industry to go from one extreme to the other and what I see so much of on social media and look it's because it creates really good content.

9:02So it goes quite viral. And that's why I see it. But it's people who are like, I was a vegan for 10 years. And they were a very hardcore vegan, you know, completely committed to it. And a lot of it was maybe raw vegan at points, no oil, you know, it's very, very dedicated. And now they're like, and I missed all sorts of things. So now I'm committed carnival. And it's like awful for breakfast. And I just find it really frustrating because I'm such a believer in individualism and you've got to find a lifestyle and within that a diet and a way of eating that suits you and it's not for me or anyone else to tell you what to do when it comes to that only you will know what really really suits you but what we do know is that we desperately need to feed our microbiome and we desperately need to eat lots of plants eating plants is both good for our health and good for the planet and so this sway from one to the other is really frustrating because it's like great move to be a flexitarian fantastic you don't have to eat awful for breakfast every day and have like organ supplements and eat yeah steak five times a week you could just eat a little bit more animal product that's fine but I don't know why we have to be extreme it is very sad you can probably hear my voice I find the whole thing quite emotionally triggering actually the extremes the dichotomy the awful like everything Ella has just described.

10:28But I really just want to hammer home that we are not talking about our planet and our sustainability enough at all. And I feel it's completely overlooked in conversations. And it's factual that we are not helping the planet with the food that we're choosing to eat either. And something has to shift. I don't know when it's going to shift. And like Ella said, you don't have to be vegetarian. You don't have to be vegan. Flexitarian is great. You just need to eat more plants and make some swabs can i say some controversial re yeah go on do it please don't be cross um with me for saying this but not you just kind of in general i think as i see it extremes for most people aren't a sustainable choice and the thing is is i think in around 2020 2021 when we're seeing the peaks that we're now comparing the data to that was kind of peak like beyond me Oatly and that you know post milk generation slogan.

11:23Post-covid as well Ella it was all very yeah and this sense of a kind of paradigm shift when it comes to food in a new world and a kind of maybe pressure for people to become vegan or vegetarian and feel like that was the right thing to do and whilst there is obviously health benefit and there's lots of research we talked about the other day for example you know vegetarian diets linked to up to a third lower cancer risk like there's so many research points around a plant very very rich diet being incredibly beneficial for our health and obviously as well more sustainable for loads of people that's actually just not how they want to eat they do like bacon and they do like steak and they do like lots of parmesan and that is fine but it's almost like by pressurizing people to go to one extreme we're always like forcing them to go to the other extreme yeah that's kind of how i'm seeing it and there's almost again like a gleeful element to it like had the vegans failed I think it was just a bit much for most people to feel they had to become completely vegetarian and I think yeah that's how I see it and I don't think that's controversial to say I'm probably better at wording it now because when I when I first started I did an interview and please don't be cross for me for this one but I said and I didn't mean it how I said it but I said in an interview it's my first big interview it's like the front cover of I can't remember which paper I said I don't like vegans.

12:43And that's not what I meant. What I meant was I don't like the pressure to have to go all in or all out. That that's really difficult for most people. And it's just not a sustainable approach for the vast majority of people. It's also psychology, Ella. This is psychology. We're talking about people's beliefs. And this is going to be a motive. It's a motive language. And if you try to tell anybody how they should live or what they should do, anybody's going to rebel against it. That's just human nature. So I completely agree with you. I've always believed in just we have to do what works for you but let's try and optimize that and and be informed education is power and that informs you i think what you've said sums that up perfectly apart from the i don't like vegan bit which the paper obviously clearly um pulled out in and that wasn't in context yeah it was so sensationalist because what but as i said what to me it was like actually for most people a complete overhaul of their lifestyle in that way it's just not realistic and so let's give people like excitement to include more broccoli more lentils more carrots like let's just do more positive nutrition and this is what i mean this is why we just need to get in my campaign this summer children cooking more we just need to get people to embrace the joy of food for sure and so i think part of the reason that i feel sad or frustrated or kind of whichever word in the continuum we want to use when i read all of this is not because i want everyone to become veggie.

14:05I really don't. That's never been a goal of mine. What I really want is people to eat more healthily. And eating more healthily is eating a very plant-rich diet. And ultimately, it just feels like a step back from that because it almost insinuates, I think, in lots of this, that eating a plant-rich diet is not a good idea. And again, if we look at the data and we look at the research, it really sits in, as we talked about last week, the kind of dash type diet or the Mediterranean diet, the mind diet, and all of that is so plant rich. So plant rich and beautiful for you. And it does lead us nicely on to our first headline today, which is the US dietary guidelines versus heart health advice seller.

14:46So a growing divide now, again, on red meat, fats and plant based eating is all very linked today. It's very, very linked. And I'll give you one final just comment, sorry to keep going on this is I think that it's really tempting honestly when you're on social media now to want to do a kind of carnivore-esque diet because people are back to being like eat like this and you'll look amazing and all your bloating will be gone and all the rest of it and I would just say please take that with like not just a pinch of salt like a ton of salt not because I want you to be vegetarian but because you need vegetables you just really need plants in your life we're going to that more now but you really really do and that's just going from one trend to another and we've got to stop going from trend to trend.

15:28We just got to root ourselves in fundamental basics. That's exactly correct. Fundamental basics. And that's why it's interesting to discuss this today because, you know, it does feel like there's a genuine inflection point in the nutrition conversation at the moment that's happening. And I don't know if you all remember, but back in January, we discussed this on the podcast. If you scroll back, the US updated its dietary guidelines, replacing MyPlate, which was their traditional, like we've got the EatWell plate in the UK. and they created a new almost inverted food pyramid designed to simplify the messaging around what they call real food so basically an aim to reduce ultra processed food products but of course we all know on here that that there's so much nuance surrounding that conversation entirely and on its own anyway but at first glance while it sounds really aligned you know as we discussed before if you look closely to what's prioritized it's not all great and how the american heart Association has responded to it is very clear.

16:25They've said that there's a clear divergence in what healthy eating really means. So Ella, do you want to recap what was introduced earlier this year? Yes, exactly. So you can Google it if you're at a computer or something. It's quite interesting to see. It's an upside down pyramid. So with the wider bit being the top and saying eat loads of this. And at the top is things like red meat, which as we know, I'm not demonising ever eating red meat but it's not something you want to be eating in abundance on a daily basis it's something to have as part of as we're saying like a plant-rich diet so the top is much more focused on like meat basically and eggs fats they're talking about having butter and really prioritizing animal fats like beef tallow which i just don't think beef tallow has really made it over to the uk thank goodness yeah dairy full fat options but like at the bottom of the image is things like bananas oats are the very like apex of the pyramid kind of insinuating that you shouldn't eat much oats and you've got like a whole stick of butter way above oats or nuts um yes and we you know we again we talked about this last week like it's not that you should never ever consume butter but you do want to be consuming it in moderation whereas what this pyramid has got is like chicken cheese two different types of red meat fish eggs and butter at the top and then at the bottom it's got oats bananas oranges and it's a really confusing message i think to send to people because obviously there's been headlines for a long long time now about things like reducing red meat content in your diet reducing things like animal fats to cook not saying never but just less and And it's almost, as I said, trying to say that whole grains carbohydrates are bad by making them in the like almost never eat teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny bit of the pyramid.

18:23Red meat is actively included as a core everyday protein, lots and lots of saturated fats. And basically what's just come out in April is the American Heart Association have released their own new guidance that directly challenges that. And their headline message is eat more plant based protein instead of meat. so it's quite a huge contradiction interestingly to what came out from the american government in which is just very very interesting to see and it caused so much controversy when this obviously came out and when we discuss this we have to remember completely that um eating more plant-based protein is more beneficial for most people when it comes to heart health isn't it you can't deny the contradictions.

19:11It must be immensely frustrating to be the American Heart Association and to see this guidance come out because you've been trying so hard for so long to prioritize plants, fibers, whole grains, to recommend plant proteins over meats. Because if we remember over in America, and please, anybody that lives there listening, please do let us know. Write to us, tell us on Spotify, send us an email. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's already very animal heavy, right? You already get a lot of saturated fat from meat consumption. So more than ever, it's important to recommend more beans and pulses and plant-based proteins over meat a few times a week, if that's a possibility.

19:51And I think everybody agrees that reducing ultra-processed foods is going to be beneficial, but it's not the best starting point, Ella, is it? We really need to be cautious about saturated fat intake, particularly over in America and the UK, I'd say we're both on a par there with heart health. Exactly. So yeah, January guidance is referencing fats like butter, beef tallow as part of this whole food approach. As you're saying, those are high in saturated fats and the American Heart Association is reinforcing that diets, high in saturated fats, particularly from these animal sources, are consistently linked to a higher rate of heart disease and other chronic conditions.

20:25So I also think, A, this speaks directly to what we were just saying about this kind of like veggie versus carnivore debate. but b i think ultimately have we ever had a better example of how absurdly confusing and misleading and how on earth you meant to know what to do we said on thursday's episode it's kind of like you need an encyclopedia to eat a meal these days and honestly this is the best example of it like no wonder people do not know what to do if you did follow the pyramid just for example i remember calculating it and looking at some i think dr idris also posted this you would exceed your daily intake of saturated fat if you cooked and ate in the way that the food pyramid recommends.

21:05And the current saturated fat intake should make up less than 10 % of your overall diet, which is roughly like 20 to 25 grams a day for most adults. And you would definitely exceed that if you were cooking everything in beef tallow, you were eating that much animal protein, you were having the amount of dairy they were suggesting a day. But what we haven't discussed here, Ella, as well was, of course, there were debates about industry funding surrounding this pyramid too but it's a big conversation I'd love to hear what Americans have to say about it yeah and I do think I just um god not in a condescending way but I just sympathize with the overall confusion when it comes to like how should I cook for myself how should I cook for my family for my flatmate whoever it is like how should we collectively eat because when you're having the government say cook with beef tallow and butter more butter the merrier more red meat and then you have the heart association saying no no no no no please don't eat so much red meat please just use a little bit of butter please include more beans and pulses what are you meant to do it is so confusing everybody i just i'm terribly sorry that this is the way the world is going i feel like i need to apologize to everybody and i'm hoping that we are here to provide a safe space to debate this to chat about it to talk it through to hear opinions i think to close that particular conversation just remember there's there's no shame in believing a certain way of eating is better for you or not better for you.

22:29You're all entitled to your own, you know, opinion about what to do with your body. I think that's also something that we have to remember sometimes is that it is completely up to you. But I do always say this, I believe education is power and then you can make an informed decision. And Rhi, just from your professional perspective, if you are advising people who are looking at this being like, I am so confused, what would you recommend? Not following the pyramid, if I'm being completely honest. I'm following a Mediterranean-style diet, which is the most research linked to health benefits around the world.

23:01Cooking with olive oil, not beef tallow. Getting more fibre, getting more plants. You can still eat meat. Just try and have some plant-based meals across the week as well. Check your portion sizes of meat on the plate. Because even lean meats, if you overdo it on portion sizes, you are still increasing a bit of saturated fat intake. And we're all already getting enough of that. and heart disease is still the leading cause of death and especially for women people don't realize that as we had our lovely spokesperson for the British Heart Foundation on a week or two ago my advice is always try and stick to where research points which for most people is a variation of the med diet.

23:36I love that okay after the break we're going to come back with the five ways optimism can improve your health but first a word from today's sponsors.

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25:38dot com slash business dash gold mx business gold card built for business by american express you all know me i'm about adding more in not cutting things out no fads no diets just evidence and transparency and right now in the uk everyone 96 of us that's 96 are not getting enough fiber it's one of the lowest figures in the world and i couldn't ignore it so we've spent years obsessing over protein and other trends and I'm delighted to share that after a year in the making my new book the fiber formula is available to purchase. I have answered every question from gut health and energy cancers and heart disease to aging skin longevity and even microplastics.

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27:04I love this headline from blood pressure to immunity. Why our mindset matters, Ella? Yeah, this is such a nice one. And again, we always say it's just so helpful to remind yourself that health isn't just about how we eat, as we were just talking about, or the exercise that we do. It's actually so shaped by how we think, which is so interesting. And it's a really emerging part of science when it comes to health is looking at the extent to which our mindset and our belief actually shapes our genuine physical health, which is so interesting. And that looks way beyond just mood. And, you know, it's why we often see the placebo effect work.

27:43The mind can be incredibly powerful, I think, more so than we often believe. Oh, 100%. I'm such a believer in that. You know, I think at the very beginning of the Wellness Scoop back in January 2025, I remember saying to Ella, and I don't know if it's being an ex-performer, but a lot of people that are in showbiz, as you say, you're able to put on a smile and sometimes just transform your entire mood for the day just with your mindset approaching something. And I'm such a believer that we do control so many elements of our health. So the research behind these headlines start with blood pressure risk.

28:19And a large 2020 study from Harvard analysed over 100 ,000 people, so pretty substantial there, found that those with the highest optimism scores had a 22 % lower risk of developing hypertension over 3.5 years. So Ella, their glass was always half full, not half empty. I know. And I know this is all so much easier said than done but also it's like you know we can create new pathways in our brains like we can shift the way we think and it's not going to be overnight but it's like there's lots of research looking at you know if you take time every day for example to know what you're grateful for over time you can shift yourself to more of a glass half full person but it's going to take time you know you can imagine like those pathways yeah I don't know say it's snowed and you've got a path from your door to the street and it's well shoveled and it's your kind of over you know you're monkeying around mind worrying about things you're naturally just going to take that pathway aren't you it's well shoveled it's easy it's going to take you a long time to shovel another pathway but over time when you have it it'll be just as easy to go down the new one and I always think that's quite a nice analogy to think about shifting your mindset so obviously you're not going to just become like a raging optimist overnight but you can you really can gently shift that with kind of some real focus well apparently it's linked to our cortisol so researchers point to lower levels of chronic stress hormones like cortisol with being you know having optimism so that's very interesting because of course i think your outlook on life naturally will subject you to either secreting more of that stress hormone or not so that is a really, really interesting area.

30:01And then the second point the researchers have said is that it can evoke a stronger immune response. So a study from Tel Aviv University that was published in Nature Medicine showed that training people to think more positively activated those brain circuits linked to optimism, like Ella said, with the shovel path. You have to train it over a period of time. And when those participants were vaccinated, this is interesting, they showed a stronger immune response suggesting optimism may influence how effectively the body responds to infection i mean this one is a little bit more out there but i think it's really really interesting that um for instance i was up three times last night with my little one i have not slept i was feeling so low and i just thought no i've got the wellness scoop today i'm going to manifest a good day don't ask how ella this does not happen every single day because i'm going to eat better.

30:52I'm going to enjoy my conversation with Ella and I'm not going to let myself get run down and sick. And sometimes just telling yourself those things, I do believe it makes a difference. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, manifesting, obviously, we should probably do it as a trend actually coming up. Let us know your thoughts on that. That was obviously an enormous trend. There are some interesting bits in that of consistently bringing like the front of mind what you want to achieve and really honing in on it. It can be super, super powerful. It's very um yeah as i said it feels like pretty cutting-edge research the effect of which our mind shapes our our health but it also optimism is linked to better sleep quality interestingly so that research was in behavioral medicine it found that people with higher optimism scores had 22 percent greater odds at better sleep and obviously that makes so much sense i think as a link with more negative thinking obviously increases stress rumination and that rumination can make it particularly hard to fall and stay asleep.

31:51But there's also evidence that people with more negative outlooks are more affected by sleep trackers, which actually again makes sense because you're already feeling a bit anxious and then yeah, that anxiety can actually then worsen sleep because you're worried about your scores. That's what happened to me as someone that is a naturally prone to be anxious person and has spent a decade trying to swap myself into the glass half full camp. I would say now quite effectively the sleep tracker was like a surefire way away to become an anxious wreck again. That's so interesting. You've come to that, yeah, that concrete conclusion.

32:24I mean, we have discussed it before, but it's a lot to be said for those trackers, Ella. And the final, I know we've got two more that the research has listed. One is on healthier aging. This really fascinates me physically and cognitively. So a long-time study from Yale School of Public Health followed adults over 65 for up to 12 years, and they found that those with more positive views of aging were significantly more likely to maintain and even improve their cognitive functions, so how well their brain is doing, and their physical ability. Now, again, I think this makes perfect sense. If you're more positive, you're more likely to be able to motivate yourself to get out for a walk.

33:01But again, it's chicken and air gala. It's a very, it's like when we discussed depression before, you know, the benefits, of course, of exercise and all sorts of things on mental health. But when you are in a low mood and you don't have that level of optimism, how do you kickstart that? I know, I completely, completely agree. And I think you have to be very concerted in starting that and realise it's going to take a long time, but it's worth persevering with. Yeah, absolutely. And then our final point is heart health. And again, it makes a lot of sense. A 15 year study, only 3000 adults here, but they did find that optimism was linked to lower total levels of what we call the bad cholesterol, the one you don't want so much of the LDL.

33:38And a large review of 15 studies on a largest sample size of 230 ,000 people found that optimists had a 35 % lower risk of cardiovascular events. I mean, ultimately here, Ella, how do you measure optimism? What type of psychological scale are they using or study? There's so much you could critique with these types of studies, but ultimately, I think there's definitely something so inherently positive to come out of it that behavior and biology isn't the only thing here. It really is how our body responds to stress and how our mind has power over that as well. That mindset is so, I think it's actually one of the hardest bits to shift.

34:16If you think about shifting like what you cook for supper or going on a quick walk today, shifting your mindset, certainly for me, like who's overhauled every aspect of their life. Like I didn't use like vegetables, I didn't like exercise. I feel like I have changed every element of my lifestyle over the last 15 years. And I think by far and away, the most difficult thing has been shifting my mindset to be a more glass half full relaxed easy going easy breezy kind of person that has for sure been the biggest slog in all 100 i'm totally with you there um i think ella's done a wonderful job at sharing us well sharing with me especially as well that it takes a lot to shift mindset and create new habits and it's definitely worth doing if you can focus in on it everybody so our final headline today is the uk's favorite veg i have to say i have done a feature on this before i did it when the plant-based book came out and i had to go for all the different vegetables but they've been ranked for health here and it's based on tesco's top 10 bestsellers and which are actually best for you out of the top 10 bestsellers now we know there's no one superfood but i am intrigued which ones have they pulled out i know yeah so tesco is the UK's biggest retailer so their top 10 best-selling veg is pretty indicative of the country's top 10 best-selling veg and those are potatoes, carrots, broccoli, onions, tomatoes, mushrooms, cabbage, cauliflower, green beans and garlic.

35:45Before we go into the ins and outs of which is the best of them all I'll tell you nothing annoys me more sorry than in interviews when people are like what is the one food I need to eat and you're like no no no no. I get it Every single time, Ella. Every single time. What do you normally answer it with? No one food is superior to another. They've all got wonderful elements. But there are a few, if you enjoy them, that you can definitely prioritize in your diet. But when it comes to comparing vegetables, like I recently had a company approach me for a PR campaign, trying to compare confectionery to vegetables.

36:22What? Yeah, it was a bit dodgy. But it was an interesting one. But they listened to me. I went back and I said look I can't ethically do this I understand where you're coming from it happens all the time this is what I spent most of you may not know but my retribution business we do a lot of consultancy so behind the scenes we're helping brands formulate and develop their new products or work on their marketing schemes and then make sure they're in line with what the correct thing to say is and a lot of the time we end up saying no based on the fact that you can't compare uh for instance not this particular campaign, but let's say you can't compare a Mars bar to an avocado because it's just totally nonsensical.