Rudy Mance, Costume Designer for FX's Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. & Carolyn Bessette, on Re-Creating CBK's Timeless Wardrobe

0:10Hillary Kerr:Welcome to the Who What Wear podcast. I'm your host, Hillary Kerr, and today I'm sitting down in studio with Rudy Mance, the Emmy-nominated costume designer of FX's love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette. From sourcing the exact vintage pieces to replicate famous looks, to recreating CBK's iconic wedding dress from the original fabric swatch, we dive into it all. Plus, we break down the process of crafting Carolyn Bessette's wardrobe before she entered the public eye. It's all coming up on Who What Wear.

0:52Hillary Kerr:Rudy, welcome to the Who What Wear podcast. We are so thrilled to have you. We've been talking about you for quite some time and your work. First of all, I have to say congratulations on your Emmy nomination for Love Story. Thank you. The work is so good. And there were so many eyes. There was so much pressure. A lot of eyes. I cannot imagine what you went through. Talk to me a little bit about how you got into fashion in general and costume design in particular. I grew up in a very small town, rural in Indiana. always very interested in fashion, but didn't really know how to break in. And had moved to New York, didn't really have a plan, and so just sort of started working and networking.

1:35I lived on the Lower East Side, which was a very hip, trendy party part of the city. Through friends, I had met a stylist and fashion editor named Sarah Richardson. She lived in London and still does, but at the time she was doing a lot of work in the States for ID Magazine. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Still one of my favorites to this day. Same. I began assisting her whenever she would come to the U.S. Through my work at ID and her, I met Edward Ennenfell. Oh, my God. Another giant. Yeah, yeah. And Edward at the time, he was still at ID. He was the fashion director. And then obviously he went on to, you know, head up British Vogue.

2:16I would assist Edward on occasion and Sarah and a handful of other Condé Nast stylists. fashion assistants never make a ton of money. Any broke New Yorker can attest to this who's, you know, an up and comer. Like we all had at least three jobs.

2:31Hillary Kerr:Yeah. So Monday through Friday, I would work at the magazines. On Saturdays, I would work on a taco truck on Bedford Avenue. And then on Sundays, I would work at this place called Beacon's Closet. Oh, my God. All of New York would come in and sell their clothes. So I worked as a buyer there. I met a woman there who was, I didn't know what she did, but I knew she did something costume related. Her name's Laura Downing. She's still a very, very dear friend. She was a wardrobe supervisor. And so she hired me to do a film with her, dressing the background. And then I was a set costumer when I first got in.

3:09So that taught me filmmaking and what it was like to be on set and all of the hard, painstaking work that goes into it.

3:17Hillary Kerr:And then I got hired as a costumer on a show called The Nick, which was Steven Soderbergh's Turn of the Century, I think 1901. And it was there that I met Ellen Mirajnik, who's a legendary costume designer. She just did Odyssey. Cash. Yeah. Just that one. Just a little film. Yeah. I met Ellen and we really got along and worked very, very well together. And Ellen's assistant, Patrick Wiley, who is also, you know, brilliant costume designer in his own right, he called me up on my birthday and woke me up because I had gone out the night before. And it was my 29th birthday. And he said, I've talked to Ellen.

3:57We want you to be our assistant on The Nick Season 2 and dress all of the background. And so they both wrote me very kind, nice letters. And they got me into the Costume Designers Guild. And I've been working ever since. That's amazing.

4:12Hillary Kerr:I think it's such an incredible skill working with the wide range of bodies, the sheer volume of people, the level of detail. I mean, it is such a different and interesting art form, to put it mildly. I just feel like it's it also probably you have to get really good really quickly. There's very little room for air, but there's also not a lot of time. Right. Or resources. Yeah. If you do a big crowd scene, you usually just have, you know, anywhere from 15 minutes, like up to if you're lucky, like on a big period show like two hours to get, you know, 300 people dressed. That's so nuts. But I feel like that's the good thing.

4:50Hillary Kerr:It's like if you can handle that pressure and you can handle that, then like everything else gets a little bit easier as time goes on. In theory. In theory. Well, speaking of which, now Love Story is obviously a Ryan Murphy project, but this is not your first time working with him. You have worked with him on a number of projects. Feud, Capote vs. the Swan, Z, plural, American Horror Story, and Monster, to name a few. Even though these are very different projects, that relationship must be such an interesting one because it has evolved over time and, like, you start to get in each other's heads, I would imagine.

5:22This is my maybe 10th show that I've worked with Ryan. Jeez. Yeah. So I came to work with Ryan Murphy through Lou Eirich, who is Ryan's costume designer on many of his shows, and they've been working together, I think for 25 years or so. And Lou now oversees as a producer all of his shows in terms of the costumes. And so I work very, very closely with Lou. And I actually met Lou through, all right, let's go back. So Ellen Mirajnik, you know, the first epic costume designer, introduced me to another incredible costume designer named Michael Kaplan. He was going to Europe to Hungary to do The Alienist.

6:04So I went over to Europe with Michael. He had to leave the project about halfway through to go do a little indie film called Star Wars.

6:13Hillary Kerr:So all these indie projects in the universe. Yeah, that small one. So he left and then I stayed on and finished the project as co-designer. And so I had come back to New York and didn't really have a plan or anything lined up. A friend called me and said, hey, I got a call. I'm not available. But Brian Murphy is in town doing a new show. And they're doing all of the press promotions this weekend. And they need somebody to go and dress 100 people like on the fly. Do you want to do it? And I was like, all right, sure. Sounds like a dare. Yeah, yeah, kind of. You know, the show was posed. They were having some issues finding the look and the tone of the show.

6:51And so Lou asked me, and this should have been my first warning sign. And I think this was Saturday. And she's like, can you start on Monday? And I was like, you know, I'm working this week. I said, you know, I have some commitments. I was like, but I'm in. I'll start. I'll start in a week. And she said, OK, cool. Full disclosure. In a week that Monday, it's going to be day one of us shooting all of the voguing balls. and Ryan wants them all to look a very certain way. So he's going to direct all of those scenes. So we're going to block shoot five episodes worth of balls in three days.

7:28Hillary Kerr:I just want to point out, this is like for anyone who isn't as intimately familiar, like this is essentially like, oh, by the way, show up. We're going to scale Mount Everest. You're going to show up at 5 a.m. You've never seen the clothes before. It's your first day with the company and you're going to dress 300 men and women, about a third of them trans. and head to toe ball looks 1980s. With an exacting showrunner, creator, director, making sure that you've got everything buttoned up. So if you don't know what block shooting is, it's a term in filmmaking, which it's basically, we have three to five episodes to shoot, but it's all going to be in the same room.

8:05So we're basically going to jump around and shoot and go back. And so in terms of continuity, so I was like, so it's not 300 looks on the first day. And she's like, no, it's going to be anywhere from 900 to 1500 looks like for the week.

8:19Hillary Kerr:Wow. Were you freaked out or were you excited? It was one of, if not the hardest, you know, design challenges and jobs I've ever had to do. Just the physicality of it. Yeah. But it was also the most rewarding. I mean, you would see these kids and a lot of them, you know, like they cast these trans kids, men and women, that a lot of them hadn't even been around another trans person. And, you know, a lot of them would come in from, you know, on the bus from small towns. And so you really would see them come in and like nobody really knew what the show was going to be and what it was going to be about.

8:55And then to see these kids come in and, you know, they're very reserved, a lot of them. And then, you know, by the end of the three or four month shoot to see them just completely transform, like it really was one of the most incredible, incredible working experiences ever.

9:09Hillary Kerr:And just to think you're part of their history. Yeah. Like they will remember that forever and ever and ever. And if you were there, you're part of their history in such an interesting way. Not to mention all of the kids who then get to see the work. And that again, like that's a testament to Ryan being so prolific. The costumes and costume design, they're always like a central focus. And like he really does treat them as a main character, which as a costume designer, I mean. The dream. Yeah, you couldn't ask for anything. How did you get involved with Love Story in the first place? I feel like this was one of the most anticipated, most discussed series in such a long time.

9:45Hillary Kerr:And I heard that you got the call about coming on as costume designer and then boarded a plane 24 hours later and had four days to get prep. It sounds like you had the right training for this, to put it mildly, but walk me through what happened. They were making some tweaks. The show was already in production. I know. This is dramatic. I had the CBK book, Sunita's book, and I had had it for years. I, you know, got on the plane with the book. And then, you know, as I'm flipping through like the first page, I mean, it's a photo book, but the first page, I was like, oh, all right, take a picture of that.

10:22Next page, picture. Like my, you know, thought was like, oh, just take a picture of any like interesting look, like, you know, and hope that it fits into the story. And then what I realized was I had photographed every single page of the book. And, you know, it was because Carolyn was such a fashion icon and she was one of the original it girls, but, you know, never wanted it, was never trying too hard. I think it was the perfect project in a lot of ways because of my background and because of my fashion training. I mean, even before, you know, when I was a teenager, I always looked at Carolyn Bessette and was always looking at, you know, what was happening in fashion.

11:00And the 90s were really sort of the first time period in the first decade that as a kid I looked at and just really started to pay attention to fashion. Him as well, you know, I mean, he was he, of course, had been photographed since he was, you know, born. Yeah. Her, it was a lot trickier because we knew what she looked like and what she wore specifically from the time that they had met until, you know, their tragic passing. But there were very few, like, and I mean, like maybe five photos total of what she wore before they met. The title is Love Story and where we were telling the story of how they met.

11:42And so that was the hardest part was to sort of figure out who she was before she met him and how those clothes translated in the early years to who she was in her later life.

11:55Hillary Kerr:When she was just a working girl, a fashion exec. I essentially worked backwards. I looked at the pieces and designers that she chose to wear at the end of her life and then sort of let that inform me of who I thought she was. What that through line was? Yeah, in the earlier years. Knowing that you got the call when you got the call and knowing that everyone has an idea about her personal style, was it overwhelming? Or because of your connection with her personal style, did you just feel like locked in, let's go, I can do this? I mean, I think both, honestly, since that I've been working with Ryan for the last 10 years and with Lou as well.

12:34There's a shorthand there. So I think in a lot of ways, both that shorthand, but also my earlier training in fashion and at Condé Nast, that really helped. And, you know, I was familiar with those designers and I knew the look of the 90s at that time of in New York.

12:52Hillary Kerr:Because you were there. Yeah, yeah. And it was scary. It was challenging. It was all of that. But exciting. Like you said, in like post, they had already started production. I think they had shot for two days and then hit pause for four days. So as much as I could do in those four days, and then obviously you just kept running as fast as you could. But there wasn't really time to second guess anything. Or consider the enormity of what you were taking on, I would imagine. Yeah. God bless those actors. I mean, Paul and Sarah and Gracie and Naomi and all of them just got tortured with fitting after fitting.

13:30And, you know, but they wanted to get it just as right as I did. It was a character. Yeah. Yeah.

13:34Hillary Kerr:Like more than most shows. We would literally like sneak fittings. And it was down to the wire. It'd be like 5 a.m. and like, you know, the look works first up. And so I'd like fit them. They'd go to hair and makeup. We would, you know, be running it under the machine. And then, you know, it's like we... God. That is crazy. Yeah, we somehow pulled it all off, but I had a really good team. I want to talk a little bit about when you craft a costume for a character that's based off a real person, and especially people like John F. Kennedy Jr. and like Carolyn Bessette. The world has an idea of what that legacy looks like, but then also your responsibility is also to the new viewer.

14:15Hillary Kerr:So how do you balance all of those things? I always try to approach every single thing from reality, from a point of reality. And in terms of costume design, even though it has to look intriguing and aspirational and all of these things, because it is for TV, no matter who the character is, whether it's pretty or ugly, it should always feel real. Even though they are costumes, they should feel like clothes and nothing should ever be too precious. Kind of like the two of them, nothing should ever be trying too hard. So it really just comes down to style. And thank God Paul and Sarah can, they're both very stylish in their own right and they could pull off almost anything.

15:00That helps, I would imagine.

15:01Hillary Kerr:There are lots of vintage brands that are used in the series, obviously Calvin Klein, but there's Prada and Valentino and Manolo and Yoji. What was the dynamic like working with these brands? Were you able to access archives? Was it more about like pulling from the RealReal and Etsy and eBay? All of the above. All of the above. Talk to me about sourcing. Again, incredible, incredible team of assistants and shoppers. Yes, First Dibs. Yes, Etsy. Yes, eBay. We had a team of shoppers here in L.A. that would pull from the rental houses and from the various vintage shops here. We went everywhere in New York, vintage shops.

15:46We even would, if we really were struggling, go to Philadelphia. And then a lot of pieces came from abroad. Huh. Yeah. We had a Prada purse from Ukraine. You know the one. Yes. You know, Japanese eBay at one point because we were struggling. In terms of archives, yes, as much as we could. Sunita Kumarner was incredible and introduced us to Yoshi Yamamoto.

16:11Hillary Kerr:That is a great introduction. I don't know if we wound up using anything from Yoshi's archives. and same with Prada only because both Yoshi Yamamoto and Prada, I think they had both just opened their flagships in New York in 1995. So they weren't, you know, fully set up with archives. So that Yoshi suit with the ruffle, the tan and black, they didn't even have it in their archives. So then we wound up having to make it. So in terms of Calvin, I mean, I think we have the most vintage Calvin-like archive of all time now. It was really important for me to use as much vintage as we could throughout the series.

16:51Hillary Kerr:Where is the museum exhibition of this, please? I'm serious. There's that great museum in San Francisco. We could do something here in LA. I want to see all of this. They're all in archives right now. I'm not sure if they're planning anything, but yeah, a lot of - Come on, FX. Let's make this happen. I know, I know. Yeah, a lot of vintage Levi's. Oh, my God. I can't imagine. Yeah. You had to go through like 100 pairs to find the right wash. Yeah. The right one or two. And if it wasn't the right wash, then we'd, you know, strip it down and dye it and paint it. Oh, I just love it. I have so many more questions.

17:25Hillary Kerr:OK. You're obviously also creating costumes for more than just Sarah as CBK, but also Jackie Kennedy. These are historic figures that are well-documented with iconic style, but then you're also showing them at home where we have no idea necessarily what they might be up to. How did you approach costuming some of the most beloved and also photographed people of our American history? It was very interesting because we all know and have a vision of Jackie. and oftentimes you know there's been so many biopics that have been done but it's most the time we we sort of see her at least I always had the vision of her it's either the the pink suit obviously right or her looking very you know sort of glamorous or it was her in her younger days in the 70s but very rarely do we ever see her you know at the the tragic sad end of her life where she was dying of cancer she was wasting away and she was getting very sick and that was the version that we were telling in our story.

18:27So I did things in terms of the costuming. And Naomi's so incredible. I think I've worked with her three or four times now. So I would do things like, you know, she was still wearing vintage Celine and vintage Ferragamo and all of the, you know, Hermes, all of these incredible designers. But we would purposely size up a size or two and then add shoulder pads and sort of -

18:49Hillary Kerr:To convey frailty. Yeah, to sort of show that she was, you know, shrinking into herself. Wow. Wow. I also would like to get into some looks from the show, specific looks. The first outfit that we see Sarah as Carolyn in is when she's getting her nails done and then departing to meet John F. Kennedy Jr. before that plane ride. Obviously, this scene carries a lot of weight and is the introduction to the character. Walk me through the thought process of putting that together. We kept going back and forth, you know, like, what should it be? You know, like, it had to be one of her iconic looks. I finally settled on that because I had found through our research a photograph of her wearing that exact look at an airport with John.

19:37And it just also felt right and felt real. You know, they were headed to Roy Kennedy's wedding. So she was going to be around the Kennedy clan.

19:47Hillary Kerr:Not traveling in sweats. You know, it still felt elevated and aspirational, but it also felt real. It felt real and it felt a little bit more subdued and a little bit conservative. And then you would think finding a pair of flared khakis would be easy, but we wound up having to make the khakis, make the shoes, make the shirt. Stop. Same for John. I had him in the same look that she was photographed in, so the two of them together. Yeah. How long does it take to make something when you're working on a show like this? It depends on how much time you got. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. The wedding dress took, in total, I think it took about six weeks.

20:26That one was always looming. Right. Yeah. But, you know, sometimes you don't have that time. You get it done in a day if you have to.