Too Much Costume Designer Arielle Cooper-Lethem on Maximalism, the Power of a Pioneer Nightgown, and London vs. NYC Style

0:10Welcome to the Who What Wear podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors, and tastemakers who are shaping the ever-evolving world of fashion. I'm Who What Wear's co-founder and chief content officer, Hilary Kerr, and today on the podcast, our editorial director, Lauren Eggertson, is joined by costume designer Arielle Cooper-Letham. Arielle has worked in film and TV for nearly a decade, with credits on projects like It Comes at Night and Ocean's Eight. Her most recent work can be seen in Lena Dunham's hit new show Too Much, which debuted earlier this summer on Netflix.

0:49The show is led by hack star and comedian Megan Stalter, who plays Jess, an ad producer who moves from New York to London to flee a horrible breakup. Ariel tells us what it was like working with Dunham to curate Jess's maximalist wardrobe of vintage nightgowns and lacy bloomers, as well as how Kurt Cobain inspired Jess's love interest Felix's grungy, androgynous Brit pop style. Plus, Ariel finds out in real time that fans loved Jess's iconic frilled nightie so much that they drove sales through the roof at If Only If, the independent British brand behind the gown. It's all coming up on Who What Wear.

1:39First, I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Lauren Egerton. I'm Who What Wear's editorial director, and I am a huge fan of the show too much. I binged it in like two days. It was so amazing. We're so excited to have you here today. This is such an honor. Everyone on our team has been discussing about the show. So this is one we're really excited about. Oh, that's so lovely. And I'm so excited to be here with you. Amazing. Before we dive into all things too much in the show and your process, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background and how you got started in fashion and costume design specifically in your career?

2:16I mean, I've always loved clothes, vintage clothes, especially, and kind of knew I wanted to do something in fashion, styling, or design. I started working retail at 14 and got an internship in the accessories closet at W Magazine my freshman year at NYU. And I learned so much. It was amazing. But I quickly realized that fashion was not going to pay enough. And that was a very tough realization because I was like, what do I do now? And I kind of had this long period of working retail, working restaurants, feeling absolutely lost without clothes, you know, in a creative sense. And then I happened to have a friend's mom who was a production accountant and she was working on like a Disney series.

3:07And she was like, there are a lot of other productions in this building and you should come and you should work with me and you should talk to some of the other costume designers in the building. And I did, and I got a job dressing extras on this Cinemax series that was set in the seventies and I just loved it. It was so much fun and it just felt like I could move through a lot of space really quickly. And there's a kind of hierarchy to fashion and the very constant cycle to fashion that I don't know I guess just didn't work and yeah the second I found film it was like home it's like you just did a new summer camp like every time you do a different project and there's a sort of like permanence to it that's really nice okay so can you start from the beginning and tell us how you got connected to Lena Denham and the project and just how it all started for you?

4:00I met Lena through a mutual friend. And of course, I had watched girls. I'm from New York. And I guess there was like a kind of thing around meeting her because she was told to me by other people that she was the voice of my generation, right? She never said that, but the world kind of said that. And we hung out a bunch of times and she's just the most lovable person on the face of the planet. And I guess at some point her line was, oh, you're a New Yorker who moved to London for love, which I did. I married a Brit and she was like, you get it. And I read the scripts and there was so much costume in the script, which was really fun.

4:47I think a lot of what you see on camera just felt really clear from the moment I read these characters. Yeah, it just felt like a good fit from the beginning. For those of you who haven't seen the show, Too Much stars Meg Stalter, who I love. But in the show, she's an ad producer who just left a toxic long-term relationship in New York and relocates to London to start all over. And it's kind of like a rom-com, but very atypical. The costumes also really reflect that, I would say. So when you read the script for the first time, what kind of world did you picture for the main characters? And maybe for Meg specifically?

5:22Like, what did you put on your mood boards? Yeah, I mean, the thing that was really clear about Meg's character from the beginning was that she had to feel really unique and of her own space. And some of that was to match Felix, who's also like a one of a kind, lovable freak. Like there was a color palette with Jess's character that was very clear from the beginning, which is this kind of softness, pastel sweetness that could contrast this kind of rough around the edges London that she finds. And then the kind of references were all over the map. I think with contemporary mood boards, it's a bit funny sharing references because sometimes I pull up a mood board and I'd like show someone to Lena and she'd be like, oh my God, like that's my friend, you know?

6:12and like they're on the moon board but there was definitely this one betsy johnson collection was all over her moods which was like an 06 spring summer betsy johnson collection with a lot of ruffles and there was some really nice kind of granny knits and big bows and that was kind of the spirit i think i love that how involved was lena in all of the costuming for the characters I was collaborating with her on, you know, certain looks or visions. Yeah, it was great. I mean, there was something like 125 principal casts. So these are people that have lines. And then we have featured background. We have background in period costumes.

6:52We were dressing a lot of people. And sometimes a character would be written into the show quite late in the process. And I text her and I'd be like, what's the vibe with this person? And then she'd just give me like three adjectives. or like she'd be like, he's the kind of guy who is looking for this book at McNally Jackson, you know, like, okay, got it. And that was really fun. I think there was a way in which we didn't need that many words, which was really good. Lena is such a fashion girly that you can kind of throw something weird at her and she's like, get it. I got it. Like I see it. So it's really fun to work with someone who kind of is in that space already.

7:27Oh my gosh, I can imagine that's such a luxury to have because it is a whole very specific niche world. So that must be so nice. totally and it was so many different worlds you know what I mean it's like there's a New York there's a London there's a kind of posh London there's the pub London we covered a lot of ground so we had to be quick on our toes speaking of that I know you mentioned that you do have that personal connection because you moved to London for love but in terms of the costuming for this what would you say were kind of the key elements for you of things that represented New York style versus London style?

8:02I mean, I'm a New Yorker. New Yorkers have the most swag in the world, obviously. But I will say that I think that there's a kind of eccentricity and like individuality to London dressing, more of a high and low mix. I think there's an underground that's been a bit more preserved than it has in New York. I think in New York, you can really tell who someone is by looking at them. And it's not necessarily a uniform, but like we walk out of the house kind of ready to be out the whole day and like prepared to have to go to three different kinds of events. Right. And I think Londoners kind of lean into personal dressing a little bit more.

8:42It's like, I'm going to show up wearing this no matter where I am. And yeah, with sourcing definitely tried where possible to source American costume in the States and UK costume in the UK. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm also curious for Jess, you kind of see her through a lot of different points in this period of life that's shown through the show. So we have like the flashbacks of her when she's with Zev, her moving to London, her obviously, spoiler alert, getting married, which I want to talk about later. Spoiler alert. I'm curious like what the thought was or the planning to kind of mark those transitions or those different periods that we're able to see as a viewer for Jess.

9:20Yes. The time that we actually spend in this season of the series is weeks, right? So lots happening, but she's not really changing in the present visually. And the flashbacks and tracking her relationship with Zev, it felt important to kind of show that very real thing that I think most women have experienced, you know, dressing when you're younger to kind of please other people and maybe feeling a little less sure of your own choices. But then also, I think a lot of her clothing in the New York scenes were vintage, which I also feel like is really real. You just have a little less money when you're young.

10:02But yeah, I think she kind of comes into a beautiful acceptance of her true personal style in the London modern day scenes. Yeah, that's what I find so fascinating about costume design is you want it to look like a curation of someone's life lived and not just these amazing outfits one after another. It's just a reflection of their personality. So I know you've mentioned vintage and sourcing American fashion for the New York looks and all of that. But what were some of like your go to's for sourcing? Well, it takes a village. I mean, I had a fabulous team of buyers and Meg brought some brands to the table that we collaborated with fashion brand company who's out of california it was a brand that she had a relationship with and like all their stuff is just so fun and perfect definitely wanted her to feel collected a bit too and not like she just bought everything yesterday so a lot of like the night gowns you see her in like in episode three for example are vintage there was this idea of oh like maybe this is something that her mother had and her grandmother kept in the attic.

11:14And that was also especially true in Felix's wardrobe. And I think that's how, even though they're both on such polar opposite sides of the aura spectrum, they kind of work together because they have this spirit that's the same of just like, what's that? Oh, I love it. Okay. It's mine. And they're both convincing. They're the kinds of friends you would have in your life where you're just like, you don't even want to ask where they got it because it probably has some crazy story and you know, you could never get it. And it just like looks perfect on them. I also love to like think of Jess as a girl who's following trends.

11:49Like she's looking at her explore pleads. She's looking at Etsy. She's interested in what's new and what's coming out, but then she has her own way of putting that all together. Yeah, totally. I know you mentioned the nightgowns and I have to share that like our team was freaking out about them. And we also saw this mentioned in Harper's Bazaar. There was this article that kind of covered, which I'm sure you know about that one brand, if only if the nightgown that she wears in one of the episodes. Yeah, she wears a lot of their gowns. They saw crazy sales. I think it was like 640 % in a single weekend after one of the episodes dropped.

12:25And then another report from Net-A-Porter came out that searches for cotton night dresses increased by 200 % because of the show in the last month. Well, we're saying it's because of the show. I haven't seen any of these articles. That's amazing. Oh my gosh, we'll send them to you. It's amazing. Where did that come from specifically? Because it's so perfect for jazz, but also unique to someone her age kind of having this really cool collection of frilly vintage inspired sleepwear. You know, when she sets herself on fire and like a pioneer night that was written into the script. So I guess that was a starting point.

12:59I'm like, okay, She's the kind of girl who has a pioneer nightgown. Also, I just kind of loved like leaning into this whole great gardens thing. Like she's really close to her grandma. She's really close to her mom. She's someone who has a connection to her family and a connection to history and is a bit sentimental. And I just feel like the nightgown is kind of a great way to do that. And then her wearing the nightgowns indoors and outdoors to me was just an easy way to say like, she's her own gal. She's doing what she wants to do. She also has such a connection to like the period pieces. I know that was a big theme that their family loves watching those like period romance pieces.

13:37So I like that tie into it's like her little way of living that in her own day to day as much as she can. So one of the themes in the show is obviously this idea that it's easy to feel like too much when you're with the wrong person. But when you're with the right person, it's never too much. And I know we've talked a little bit about the flashbacks to Jess with Sev, but that was definitely a theme that I think the viewers sense from the show that like her music taste can be too much the way she dresses the things she talks about there's like that one specific scene where she's wearing that white sailor dress and Zev just says that the way that she dresses is like as a fuck you to people sometimes and that's a really pivotal moment yeah very heartbreaking moment to watch I'm curious how that look came about for that moment the dress that she meets Felix in that Zev pupus was meant to feel adjacent to her pioneer nightgowns, like kind of in that nightgown-y space.

14:35So that was kind of the jumping off point for that. It's like, what's a dress that isn't a nightgown, but that kind of has that same feeling. And it's like, how do we recognize these patterns in her life? Some good, some bad, but then also how do we kind of recognize the growth with 10 episodes. The starting point was the writing and Foundry Moves do so much cool stuff. We use some of their shoes too on Emily Ratajkowski. I've gotten so many questions about that dress because the sailor collar is detachable. Ooh, I love that. And I'm not sure that they sell the sailor collar anymore. They have the dress.

15:11I think it's called the Amalia, but I'm like, you guys need to restock that collar right away. No, it's so cute. And it was perfect for the scene as heartbreaking as it was. I feel like it was just such a perfect Jess look. She's so pretty. She shouldn't let Zev talk to her like that. Ugh, I hated him. He really like made me see red. We've all had a Zev, but that's like why episode five, I think is just so heartbreaking. Cause you're like, Oh, I've been there. Like, why did any of us tolerate that? We were so cute. We looked so good and we were hotter than ever. Yes. And you want to like scream at her.

15:47Like, why is your instinct to not just get out? But we've all been there too, where you have to just, it's your own path and your own timing to realize like that is not for me. You gotta learn the hard way. Yes. So to transition to Felix, because he is the right person and he's amazing, but very complex. I wanna hear from you about his wardrobe. I know you've kind of touched on it a little bit and the similarities with Jess's, but I mean, as an onlooker, I just love his kind of like grungy and punk vibe, but he's not afraid to be a little androgynous and has some femininity in there with like florals and he loves painting his nails and he will have like a random kimono on and he just is very eclectic.

16:26But I'm curious, like from your perspective, what it is you love about Felix's wardrobe and your experience curating it? We had a lot of fun with Felix's wardrobe. Will Sharp is amazing and gets really interested in clothes, this process of like getting into character. And I think we agreed from the beginning that he should have a very small closet. He's not going to the store to buy clothes. Like the idea of Felix in a store shopping is like so wrong. So our rules were that he had to have found it somewhere or have had it for long enough that his parents bought it for him. You know what I mean?

17:06Like maybe there was a funeral or something and his mom was like, okay, this is getting insane. We're going to get you a proper suit, you know? And that's how he got his suit. Or a girl left a pair of sunglasses in his car. That's how he got his glasses. Like the leather coat he wears all the time. We imagine his dad put on some weight. It's been sitting in the attic forever. And like, that's how he got the coat. And even though he had so little wardrobe, it was fun. And I think there managed to be like surprises, even though he was wearing the same pair of sweatpants, basically every episode.

17:42There was always something about him that felt just new and flashy. And it's in the Felix kind of a way where you're like, whoa, what like trunk did you pull that out of? Or what like corner in your closet or, you know? Yeah. Will was really excited about the whole musician thing. I think we really didn't want it to feel lame. You know what I mean? Like a guy with a guitar, He had a ton of 90s Britpop references. You know, Kurt Cobain was obviously a big reference. And it's like, why can't I put on a blouse? Why can't I have my girlfriend put on some lipstick for me? And that was the spiritual energy there.

18:20I feel like it was also really fun to see this other side of Felix when we get introduced to all of his exes in episode eight called One Wedding and a Sex Pest. Yeah, so many X's. Oh my gosh, so many. And they're all so different. I loved being able to see their outfits. I mean, I spotted like a Simone Rocha look right away. I feel like it was just all over the map. Can you talk to me a little bit just about curating those looks for that moment that we're getting to see all of them for the first time? That episode was kind of a standalone. You know, it was directed by Jenixa Bravo, who plays Kim, but also is a wonderful director.

18:58and I think it was kind of meant to feel in its own space a little bit I mean I think it's funny because if you haven't spent any time in England like I'd imagine it could probably feel completely over the top I think for people who have actually spent time here it's like a certain posh culture and you have your like cool posh you have your stuffy posh and at the right kind of wedding you get all these people like in the same room and the main thing was how do we make this big world of characters but also still somehow make Jess feel like so out of place even though you have Linnea Adwoa Bo's character wearing like a surrealist Miriam Kehany headpiece and like you have the trans cousin performing the sex song and even despite all of that like Jess's character still somehow feels the one that's really out of place.

19:57Yeah, with like her teal, it's like lame or I don't know, it's just metallic-y teal halter mini. It is very lame. Okay. You could use so many words. It's got velvet trim. There's wire in the ruffles. It's got many things going on. We made that dress wanting to be able to place her anywhere in the crowd at all times. You definitely can. You could not miss her. And then the scene of her crawling up the window. I'm like, of course she's wearing this like tiny ruffled dress. Like the whole thing was perfect. Yeah. I especially like the big bow out the back of her coat drama. Yes. I also want to talk about Emily Ratajkowski.

20:36Her whole vibe is also very unique to every other character on the show since she plays Wendy, the new fiance of Zev and she's this knitting influencer. She's wearing all of her own creations. How did this character become a knitting influencer? Do you have any like background story that you can share there? And what were some of the like key pieces that you felt were really important to have on her consistently throughout? Yeah, the character definitely did evolve a bit from the first scripts that I read. And I think some of that was to do with the fact that Emily was really excited about being in a space that felt really different from who she is in her real life.

21:19She kind of went from a lawyer to a knitwear influencer. So that was an interesting change. And yeah, it was like, okay, she's like an e-girl. She's like a bit edgier. I guess there's this thing of like, can we hate her? Can't we hate her? You know, there's a line, Kim has a line where it's like, no, you can definitely hate her. so yeah I think like her having a bit of craft and feeling like she was more than just a girl selling her own line of cosmetics or something but also like had this talent made her a little more lovable maybe we actually thought we were going to make her knitwear ourselves because we're like okay we really need to like feel a consistent hand in this and then we found this amazing knitwear designer, Sarah Beasley.

22:08Her company is called Sulk Knitwear and she's based in the UK and makes everything herself. So we used a lot of her pieces. And then some of the pieces I think were like Maryam Nasir's Aday. We incorporated other knits, but the heart of the feel of her knit was Sulk. I think it worked out really well. We knew it kind of wanted to be like a lot of Angoras and a bit fuzzy and a bit neon. As you can see, their apartment is also super doused in neon. It was really fun putting her together because I think she's a character that pulls from a lot of spaces. Definitely. She's like the girl that you want to hate, but then you get to know her, which obviously happens in the end.

22:49And you're like, oh, God damn it. You're actually cool. You're kidding me. You knit all your own clothes. That's so annoying. But then you're like, actually, that's the coolest thing ever. And I could never do that. and I'm jealous because I want to be that cool. Exactly. So I loved it. I also really want to talk about Astrid, Jess's dog. Can you talk to us about their coordinating looks sometimes? Did you have to get those outfits custom made? Like what was her story? She's so cute and weird. Weirdest dog ever in the best way. We love Astrid. Lena has a hairless dog. She's two actually. And her dog Ingrid was meant to play Astrid and couldn't manage the demand of long days on set.

23:28So then they found Mia and Muppet, brother and sister, and Mia was playing Astrid and Muppet would stand in and we needed to hide their private parts so that we couldn't see that sometimes it was a girl dog and sometimes it was a boy dog. So that was part of the necessity of the costumes, but Lena does have a whole drawer of clothes for her dog and I looked through that collection of dog clothes that she has and that was a starting point so yeah we designed a bunch of costumes for her that were kind of meant to like match and work with Jess's closet my favorite probably being this leopard print coat that we made for her which she did not get to wear enough oh my gosh Yeah, it's like a leopard coat and it's got like a shaggy white neck and it's adorable.

24:27We made a bunch of nightgowns for her. And then some of the things we just kind of shopped using Ingrid's closet as a kind of mood board. Okay, the last full specific look I really have to talk about. Again, spoiler alert, but Jess gets married in the end. And I just want to know, like, did her wedding look go through changes or different rounds? or was that another look that was kind of written into the script? Yes, it was written into the script. She has the Nixon t-shirt, which has a big story arc in the show. It starts by being Jess's mother's shirt. And we even see it on her as a little girl.

25:06She gets the shirt back after Zev having it for a long time. And so in the script, it's the shirt and a kind of tutu skirt. Meg Salter had a relationship with a designer called Veronica Schaefer, who's based out of Chicago and does amazing stuff. So we worked with Veronica Schaefer to make a skirt that felt tutu, which Veronica had kind of already been doing, like tutu bridal. And she gave us the beautiful bow bell. And yeah, it's one of my favorite scenes in the show. Too brief. There were so many good wedding looks and it's so frustrating because it's like this little moment I was like no let's stay here for longer yeah I know I wish she was one of those brides that changed into like an after-party look and then her after after-party look and I just wanted to see all versions of just getting married it was so cool okay this is our last question but to our knowledge too much hasn't been officially renewed yet for a season two but if it does come back have you started brainstorming or envisioning any sort of like progressive style journey for Jess over the next couple of seasons for her?

26:20I really hope it comes back for a second series. Yeah. The window of time that we see her in the present day in the first series is so crazy short. I think it'd be really fun to kind of see her grow into her relationship with Felix and settle into London. If she stays there, who knows, you can feel that she's really learned a lot about herself through the relationship and the kind of love that she's getting. I think it'd be really fun to see her with a bit of a time lapse. And she's kind of like rebounding from the whole Zev trauma. So maybe she's like gone really far in one direction. And then maybe she settles back into some sort of space that's between all of that or new.

27:06And yeah, I think it'd be really fun to see. Oh my gosh, for sure. I'm crossing my fingers. I think seeing her evolve and just learning more about her character and all the characters would be the dream. So I hope it happens. Same. I'm so grateful that you came on today and were able to chat with me. You are so talented and it was just such an honor being able to chat with you today. So thank you. Thank you so much, Lauren. It was really nice to talk to you.

27:36A huge thank you to costume designer, Ariel Cooper Lethem. Make sure to subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss an episode. And while you're there, I'd also be so grateful if you'd rate and review us. If you have any guest suggestions or any other feedback, drop us a line at podcast at whowhatwhere.com or you can find us on social at WhoWhatWear. See you next Wednesday on the WhoWhatWear podcast.

28:14This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto. Our editor is Ko Takasuki Chernobin. Our audio engineers are at Glen Canyon Audio, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.