Britain reportedly considers military assistance for Saudi Arabia

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1:00It's everything your business needs in one place, saving you time, headaches and serious money. Stop paying for missing pieces. Go to odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com to learn more. Hello, I'm James Kamara-Sami. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Tuesday the 15th of September. The government is reported to be considering military help for Saudi Arabia after the latest attacks by Iran-backed Houthis on the Saudi oil infrastructure. We'll hear about the impact on the global economy, we'll get the view from Saudi Arabia, and we'll ask a member of the Defence Select Committee what kind of military help the UK can provide.

1:39We speak to a parish councillor from the Oxfordshire village of Piddington where voting has been taking place in an independence referendum. The organiser of a pro-human AI conference in Washington tells us what pro-human AI would look like. Plus. We'll hear from the Welsh actor who has captured hearts and awards in America. And we'll hear about the Scots languages, which are helping to locate long lost oyster beds. The war in Iran may no longer be in the daily headlines, but we are certainly feeling its growing economic impact on a daily basis. The disruption it's caused to global shipping has helped to push up the price of oil.

2:19The cost of filling an average petrol tank has risen by five in the last couple of weeks. And beyond that, the military stalemate in the Middle East is fuelling fears about inflation, which today saw US borrowing costs reach their highest level in nearly 20 years. A new factor that is shifting the dial and raising the price of oil even higher is the latest military advance by the Iran-backed Houthis in Yemen.

2:49The sound there of fighting by the Houthis in the north of Yemen. Well, at the end of last week, they took control of a key island in the Bab al-Mandeb Strait, the southern gateway to the Red Sea, and they attacked a Saudi pipeline, causing it to be closed and effectively cutting off export routes that were being used by the Saudis to bypass the Strait of Hormuz. It's being reported this evening the British government is considering sending military support to the Saudis. Let's speak to our security correspondent Frank Gardner. Frank, what are we hearing about possible British assistance to the Saudis then?

3:22Well, it won't be the first time that they've done this because Britain embedded a number of RAF advisors at squadron leader rank, so equivalent to major, in the Saudi Coalition Air Operations Centre to help the Saudis target more accurately military targets. because during the seven years of intensive war, mostly fought from the air by the Saudis from 2015 to 2022, a lot of their bombs went astray and killed a lot of civilians. So Britain sent RAF advisers to try and help them abide by the law of armed conflict and avoid civilian casualties. What we're seeing now is potentially Britain helping the Saudis with probably advice, targeting, intelligence, similar to what the Americans are doing.

4:17But I don't think we're going to see either the UK or the US get drawn heavily into this conflict. They did have quite a lot of exchanges of fire with the Houthis in the years following the Hamas-led raid out of Gaza into Israel. And there was a Royal Navy warship that very nearly got struck by a high-speed missile that was coming in. But they managed to destroy it. So people are wary, I think, even though the Houthis, they appear on TV as this sort of ragtag army. They're all wearing different uniforms. They're wearing flip flops, carrying antiquated weapons. And yet they they control that Red Sea coastline so they can threaten shipping.

5:03They've got anti ship missiles. They've got drones. They've got ballistic missiles. They can do a lot of damage to the global economy. Indeed, and specifically the oil market at the moment. Yes. So just to be clear, the east-west pipeline was actually not hit by the Houthis. That was targeted by militias believed to be pro-Iranian proxy militias in Iraq. So it was hit from the north. So the Saudis are basically coming under attack from two sides, from the south and from the north. And the idea of this east-west pipeline, which there's a report tonight that it's going to reopen. So Chris Wright, the US Energy Secretary, has said that it's going to reopen within days.

5:44But that doesn't stop the fact it's extremely vulnerable to drone attacks. You know, if they've hit it once, they can hit it again. So Iran has really got its fingers around the throat of the Saudi economy because its own economy is being throttled by the US with this blockade that America has got in the Arabian Sea stopping Iran from exporting its oil. And Iran is basically saying, fine, you want to play that game? we can hurt you as well. Frank, thanks so much for that analysis. Our security correspondent, Frank Gardner there. Well, the Saudi call for British help, military help, follows reports that the United States has rebuffed an appeal from the Saudis for extra assistance to fight off the Houthis.

6:25The Houthis have explicitly said that only Saudi vessels would be blocked from using the Bab al-Mandeb Strait. For a sense of the mood in Saudi Arabia, I spoke to Aziz al-Gashian. He's a senior non-resident fellow at the Gulf International Forum in Riyadh. How serious does he think the situation is? It's serious and it's only getting more and more serious. And I think in my opinion, this is exactly what the Saudis have tried to avoid in the first place. I think the Saudis have really invested an immense amount of diplomacy with Iran and the region, and even with the Houthis in the years prior, trying to avoid the situation from just metastasizing the way it is.

7:04They knew this war that started originally in February will kind of lead to these kinds of serious consequences and ramification that's happening. And we're, to be honest with you, in an era of just seeing nightmare scenarios after nightmare scenarios become manifested. Because right now, the Saudi lifeline of oil and exportation of oil is hindered severely. It doesn't get any more serious than that. You talk about the relationships that Saudi Arabia has nurtured over the years. Clearly, a key one has been with the United States. I want you to have a listen to what President Trump said at the weekend when he was in Ireland, when he was asked about the situation in Saudi Arabia.

7:47The Houthis called us and they don't want to fight with us. They let us know. They don't want to fight with us they don't want me to go after they don't want us to go after them but they've called and they've talked to us and they don't want us to they would much prefer not having us involved and they're letting most ships go through it there's just one country that they're not too happy with and we'll get that straight down that one country of course is saudi arabia the houthis have said specifically the one country whose ships they won't allow to to go through the Red Sea, are Saudi ships. And when you heard Donald Trump say that, what do you think?

8:25No one is surprised. We've seen this before, especially in 2019. There was an orchestrated attack on Saudi oil refineries. Donald Trump then said, well, Iran did not attack us, they attacked the Saudis. And if they want our help, they will have to pay for our help. So here, this really strikes at the heart of the Saudi frustration that they have with this security relationship with the United States. The Saudi-American relationship is frustrating. The Saudis know they cannot depend on it solely. And I think this is why we're seeing Saudis speak to more partners rather than just the United States.

9:03Including the UK? Yes, well, absolutely. I was going to ask you what you think in practical terms the UK can offer Saudi Arabia. I think they already have advisors there. I think the Saudis would really like more of a supporting role. I don't think the Saudis will expect to have their British allies to be on the front line of any kind of campaign. And I think the request will be far more of a supplementary role. And the British forces do offer that. I think they will take it. So, I mean, it sounds like you're saying it's probably going to be more intelligence-based. Well, intelligence and just more, I think, maybe refueling logistics and intelligence.

9:41I think that. How isolated is Saudi Arabia feeling at the moment? I think Saudis feel more overstretched than isolated. We are part of a region. It's a multi-front fire right now. And therefore, to address all these issues at the same time is very difficult. That was Aziz Al-Gashian from the Gulf International Forum in Riyadh. Mike Martin is a Liberal Democrat MP for Tunbridge Wells. He's a former army officer and he sits on the Defence Select Committee. So what degree of help should the UK be giving Saudi Arabia? Britain has got very long-standing ties with Saudi Arabia, particularly in the defence field.

10:21We often have exchanges and advisors with them. We've currently got air defence units there because of the recent round of conflict to help them defend themselves. We sell, you know, probably about a quarter of British arms sales are to Saudi Arabia. So the Prime Minister has received this request. He certainly should be considering it as a what can we do to help. Is there then a downside to not helping them in terms of that relationship? So I sit on the Defence Select Committee. We've just launched a new inquiry into Britain's role and positioning in the Gulf because a lot of those allies there feel abandoned by America.

10:56Worse, they feel that America started a war and put them in it effectively, put them in the firing line. And so they are looking to renew, refresh, rebuild partnerships with countries like Britain. And we on the committee think that this is actually an opportunity for Britain to strengthen those partnerships in places like Saudi Arabia. But what capability do we have to help them? The British Armed Forces are in an appalling state at the moment. The Houthis have taken this island on the Bab el-Mandate, so perhaps we would like to put a ship there. We have a destroyer HMS Dragon that's in the region.

11:30I don't think we'd be wanting to deploy it on its own. Traditionally, we might have done that with the Americans, but they've said they're not going to get involved. Perhaps we could do it with the French aircraft. They're mostly stretched. So if we were pulling an aircraft onto those tasks, we might be taking them off some other tasks. And as for land forces, I think that's completely out of the question. Any kind of land forces, barring perhaps an air defence unit, if we were to increase the level of air defence units to defend this pipeline that's been damaged, I think we would be pulling them from elsewhere.

11:58So I think the bottom line is our military capability is stretched beyond where it could make any kind of substantial contribution beyond sort of tinkering around the edges of that problem. What would we actually be doing then? Just sort of offering moral support, advisors? There is a bit of a question around Saudi Arabia's military. They currently have about 350 decent combat aircraft, the sorts of combat aircraft that you'd see European countries or the Americans flying. I mean, they bought all the kit off us. You know, they're requesting American help where they actually have the military hardware.

12:33So I think the first question, this is what the Prime Minister has done, he sent some advisors there. I think to understand why it is that they are not using the forces that they do have. There may be help that we can add in terms of intelligence and targeting and operational design and radars and all that kind of stuff that helps them get those forces into the field. Saudi Arabia buying British, French, American weapons have been bought often not to fill up their own militaries, but actually in order to secure a strategic partnership with America, France or Britain, in the hope that America, France or Britain will come and defend them when the bombs and bullets start flying.

13:11And I think that they've been totally let down by the Americans in that regard. And now they might be finding out that when they need Britain's help, we're not in a position capability-wise to offer them that help. So that grand bargain that Saudi Arabia has struck in the past through buying Western weapons may be falling apart. Liberal Democrat MP, also member of the Defence Select Committee, Mike Martin there. Well, we did ask to speak to the government about the reports that it was considering military assistance to the Saudis. They sent us a statement. The UK condemns the Houthis' decision to resume conflict in Yemen and their recent attacks on Saudi Arabia.

13:48We're clear that they must cease their attacks immediately. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the Republic of Yemen have the right to defend their security and sovereignty in accordance with international law. We continue to work with partners to support regional stability, protect civilians and support humanitarian access in Yemen. Now, coming up later. Aldriki's son, Blythe, faces wear. September's merry month is near that brings in Neptune's collar cheers, new oysters fresh, the hailsomest and nicest gear of fish and flesh. We'll find out how researchers in Scotland have traced lost oyster beds using some local ancient languages.

14:30Now, though, as the first programme on air after polls close in many elections, we often get the first bite at some analysis of the voting that's taken place or perhaps even of some early exit polls. but I'm not sure whether there have been any in the closely observed plebiscite which took place today in the village of Piddington in Oxfordshire where residents have been voting on whether to break away from the United Kingdom. The symbolic vote is designed to draw attention to the government's plans to house more than 1 ,200 single-male asylum seekers, more than three times the population of the village, in a nearby MOD site.

15:03Here is one resident explaining how he voted and why. I voted to leave the United Kingdom. Because in my opinion, our government, who represented, they're supposed to look after the people. They don't care. They just don't care. Not one Labour MP has been down here to see us. Yeah? They're complicit in what the crimes that these illegal immigrants will commit. Because it'll happen. It's happening everywhere now. We can speak to Joe Marshall, Pittington Parish Councillor and Planning Consultant. Good evening. Good evening. I don't think you have the full results yet, but can you give us any early indications?

15:49I don't think I've got an awful lot of information, I'm afraid. So, obviously, we had a parish council meeting this evening as the vote closed at seven. From my understanding, they're now reading the votes and counting them. I think the last I heard, it was looking quite positive for the leave campaign, but I think we're going to have to confirm that at obviously seven o 'clock tomorrow morning. OK, well, we might not stay up all night, but get up at a reasonable time to find out the results. But of course, I mean, I guess the result you really wanted, because this, as I've said, is a symbolic vote, isn't it, is the attention that you have got, the national awareness of the issue you wanted to bring to a national level.

16:29Yeah, absolutely. So obviously the background behind this vote is after the announcement, it's become very evident that the government are trying to hide any opportunity for consultation on this. And, you know, as a country, we have an unwritten constituency, not constituency, constitution, which is based on the rule of law. And one of those elements is planning law. There's a crown development policy which allows for them to fast track applications, but it doesn't give them permission to sign off if it doesn't comply with planning policy. And we know for a fact that this application doesn't comply.

17:07There's an awful lot of discrepancies, there's missing documents. We've got evidence of bats and newts on the site and there's no reference at all in any of their planning documents. Right. I mean, I know there were concerns expressed by some villagers that all of this might get hijacked by political forces. What can you tell us? So, I mean, obviously we're welcome to talk to anyone that is willing to come to our village. So we've had people from the right, people from the left, people from a number of different parties. Anyone off limits? Sorry, what was that? Is anyone off limits? Anyone you didn't want or don't want?

17:43Not particularly. If anyone is willing to go out of their way to come to our small village in Oxfordshire, then we'd be more than happy to have a conversation and make them a cup of tea. We really want to raise a profile of this because what is being undertaken here, it completely swamps and it completely disproportionately puts our village at potential risk. And whenever we raise this as a potential concern, we hear nothing back. We've had Andy Burnham promise to speak to us or listen to us twice with no response. I'll just say what the Home Office have said. I mean, they're saying we're working to fairly house asylum seekers across the country, moving asylum seekers into alternative accommodation, including former military sites, which are designed to be self-contained to reduce the impact on the local community.

18:28I know you clearly have strong views about this location close to the village, but do you accept that the government has pretty limited options at the moment when it comes to the asylum seekers who are in the country? Yeah, I completely agree. They have limited options. But I think if you were to go through and look at their historic select committee discussions, they've identified that large sites don't work, they break down, there's large risks of fighting on site, and they can't control the individuals on site. Because of the higher quantities, mental health becomes very, very poor as well.

19:01So large sites aren't the answer. These super kind of mega sites, the 1 ,250 people, potentially 3 ,500, which was accidentally sort of unredacted among the documents, is too high for them to be able to offer any assurances that they're going to be able to self-contain these people on site. And I want to add that the site is situated on a busy main road. These individuals aren't contained on site, so they will always have this risk of 5%, 10 % wanting to leave the site, and they're coming out on the main road that regularly has fatalities. Joe, many thanks. Joe Marshall, a parish councillor from Piddington, a small village, but with a pretty significant voice in this debate.

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20:22Now, surely even AI couldn't have predicted that in today's divided America, one of the architects of Donald Trump's MAGA movement and a proudly socialist US senator would today share the stage at a conference in Washington, D.C. But it was concern about AI that brought them together at the Pro-Human Assembly, a forum to chart what its organisers call a better human-centric future for artificial intelligence, just at the moment when industry insiders are warning of its potentially deadly capabilities. The left-wing US Senator Bernie Sanders accused his congressional colleagues of being too slow to act on the risks posed by the technology.

20:59Despite living in a so-called democracy, the public has had virtually no input into the AI revolution that is transforming the world in which they live. Congress, under both Democratic and Republican control, have been asleep at the wheel and we now have a president whose ignorance regarding this issue is truly embarrassing. He went on to say that he hoped President Trump would agree with the Chinese President Xi Jinping at a summit next week to pause advanced AI development. Now, the senator was followed on stage by the former Trump strategist, Steve Bannon. He said a pause was necessary because the technology and its potential dangers were so complex.

21:51Here's what we have to do first, to slow down the pace so that we can understand exactly what's going on and also let them understand that we're not going to let you put a moat around this. We're not going to let you be a cartel. We're not going to underwrite the liabilities. You take the upside. We need time. And this is not legislation. This is going to have to be executive action. The legislation is going to be enormously complicated and take a while. Just because the technology is complicated, the opportunities are complicated. And the bottomless pit, the abyss of the downside is complicated.

22:28it. Well, as well as a day full of speeches and roundtables, the conference also featured what was billed as a special announcement, the creation of a pro-human AI coalition. So what is that coalition? What is it seeking to do? Tamika Tilleman is the CEO of it and joins us live. Good evening. Good to be with you, James. So what is this coalition all about? What are its aims? Well, the coalition is bringing together an extraordinary cross-section of organizations. They include donors and investors, organizations that are building AI technology, and many leading advocates and advocacy groups across four continents who are committed to charting a pro-human future for AI technology.

23:16It, in many ways, is an acknowledgement that AI has a great deal of good that it can deliver for our societies, but only if it is used appropriately. It needs to be safe, it needs to be fair, and it needs to remain under human control. And our coalition is working across many different verticals, including policy shaping and market shaping to achieve that outcome. it's interesting i mean the conversation in recent days has been about the potential dangers of ai and today we've got the big companies open ai anthropic google announcing that they're working to create an ai standards body i mean they essentially have a monopoly don't they on conversations around ai at the moment and they're widely believed to have the most powerful ai models in the world how are you going to compete with that kind of power Well, that is, I think, the core of this challenge.

24:12There are many outstanding individuals and world-class organizations that have been trying to give humanity a seat at the table when it comes to solving the challenges posed by AI. It has been very difficult in large measure because there hasn't been any connective tissue to bring those different groups together. And that's changed today. The organization that I lead, the Pro Human AI Coalition, has now created a variety of solutions that will enable the broad ecosystem of stakeholders who care about getting this issue right to work together. And we're already seeing some incredible dividends from that collaboration.

24:52Is that going to need new legislation? Because another intervention today from Jensen Wang, chief executive of NVIDIA, biggest company in the world, a key player in the chip making, said we don't need new laws or regulations. We feel that it's going to be important to get both the technical code right and the legal code right. And you can't ignore either side of that equation if you want to get good outcomes from AI. Members of the coalition have already successfully championed legislation that's been signed into law in five US states and a number of other jurisdictions, including the UK, are exploring legislation that's been championed by the coalition.

25:37Working at a state level, does that acknowledge that on a federal level, you've got a president who just yesterday dismissed concerns about the danger of AI as a hoax and said that the only guardrails needed were a smart president? Well, the reality is that it is complicated to get anything through the federal government in the United States right now, but there are other templates that we believe are very encouraging. If you look, for example, at what happened with mobile markets in conjunction with the advent of the GSM standard many years ago, we find a very hopeful template. In that case, you had four countries, not the United States, the UK, Germany, France, and Italy, who all came together, agreed upon a set of standards, and ended up shaping a market through the use of procurement and bandwidth allocation that defined what good looked like.