Cousin of Bashar al-Assad condemned to death

0:00Tim Pope:Hello, I'm James Kamara-Sami. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Tuesday the 18th of August. A big moment for Syria as the first person with the surname Assad is condemned to death for crimes committed by his family's regime inside Syria itself. We speak to an American war crimes prosecutor who's been at the heart of international efforts to bring victims justice. A mother who believes that social media was responsible for her daughter's death speaks to us from the Meta trial in California. The Pope of pop videos, Tim Pope, takes us behind the scenes of his creative life.

0:34Tim Pope:Plus, what's behind the hype about hyperpolitics? We speak to the author of a book that's being lapped up in some influential Labour circles. In Syria today, a moment of reckoning, and for a people crying out for justice after decades under a brutal dictatorship, a moment of some symbolic significance. A court in Damascus handed down a death sentence to Wasim al-Assad, a cousin of the deposed Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, a cousin and an enforcer for the Assad regime. He was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, a verdict that came a week after the exiled ex-leader, now living in Moscow, was sentenced to death himself in absentia.

1:14Tim Pope:Another cousin, who was involved in the suppression of protests which sparked off the Syrian civil war, was sentenced to death last week, but this was the first person with the surname Assad to face justice inside Syria. This was the announcement in court.

1:33In the name of the Arab people of Syria, we have reached a unanimous decision. First, to convict Wasim al-Assad of the crimes of murder and serial killings with intent.

1:47Tim Pope:In 2024, just a few months after the fall of the Assad regime, My colleague Tim Franks visited the Damascus suburb of Khuta, the site of many of Wasim al-Assad's crimes. There he met Mohammed al-Khatib, an orthopaedic surgeon who'd returned to Syria from Turkey, where he had fled with his family. He showed Tim what remained of his home after years of regime bombardment. Because of the strength of the barrel bombs, as you see, everything is destroyed. You've called this place home but it's not home It's not home, it's ruins It's like a museum of ruins It's many of memories What were these two rooms?

2:34This is a salon This is a living room This is a children room There's a carpet, there's a pillow There's a plate well, what's left of a plate you have to have a very active imagination to think that this was once a place where a family lived together

3:02Tim Pope:Tim Franks speaking to Mohammed Al-Khatib there actually in early 2025 just after the fall of the Assad regime so what does this case tell us about the wider effort to achieve some kind of justice for the crimes of the Assad regime in Syria. Stephen Rapp is an American lawyer, academic and former politician who served as a U.S. ambassador at large for war crimes issues in the Office of Global Criminal Justice. He's made several trips to Syria as part of his work with the Commission for International Justice and Accountability and he joins us now. Ambassador, welcome to the programme. Good to be with you.

3:37Tim Pope:What would you say the significance is of today's sentencing of Wasim al-Assad? Well, it shows that the government is accelerating its efforts to bring to account the serious regime perpetrators that it has in custody. Oaseem Assad was the first person they'd identified. I remember I was at the Ministry of Justice the day he was brought in for questioning last September. And then there have been, of course, this case where we had the live defendant in court, Tef Najib, last week, though it got most attention because of the sentences in absentia against Bashar Assad and his brother Mehar Assad.

4:16But these two individuals have now been convicted of murder and serial killings, and the judges have gone on to qualify their crimes as crimes against humanity and war crimes, even though the Syrian statute hasn't been amended yet to reflect international crimes.

4:36Tim Pope:And the death sentence, I mean, that has been criticised by some human rights groups, hasn't it? What do you make of that? Well, you know, it's certainly the sentence that the vast majority of Syrians who experience the horrors committed by men like these wish to see. And, of course, we're always talking about survivor-centered justice and victim-centered justice. And we're in a region where there hasn't been repeal of the death penalty and where the death penalty is given for ordinary murders, let alone for mass murders. But, of course, from an international perspective, it creates problems. All countries in Europe have abolished the death penalty and are unwilling, I think, largely to provide assistance to the Syrian justice process if the death penalty can be a possibility.

5:28And then, of course, the United Nations has taken the position that it won't support the processes in which death could be a result. that caused, for instance, the withdrawal of the UN investigative mission in Iraq that was investigating the crimes of ISIS. So it does complicate matters, and it could complicate matters when it comes to getting extradition. Of course, Russia has the death penalty, and they're not giving up Assad, but there could be other countries where one of the larger perpetrators could be traveling, and it might complicate the willingness of a government to to give up that individual unless, of course, there was an undertaking not to have that individual convicted, if convicted, sentenced to death.

6:11Tim Pope:What about the thousands of millions, perhaps, of families who have been affected by what has happened over the past many decades? And the sense of justice for all of them. I mean, it's a huge task, isn't it, bringing justice following the decades of the Assad regime? I mean, do the new authorities have the resources for this? They have nowhere near the resources that they need. Until recently, there was only one investigative judge for all of these cases. Each of the cases and all the evidence has to be reviewed and the case put together for indictment by that by that investigative judge. So there's a real bottleneck.

6:56And of course, there aren't that many trained judges who weren't implicated in sending people to torture and death by the previous regime. So that is a challenge. I mean, my sympathy is entirely with the survivors and victims. I mean, we are talking here about the worst atrocities of the 21st century. Maybe 150 ,000 people disappeared off the streets into dungeons where they were tortured and murdered. You know, people want their whole neighborhoods destroyed, turned to rubble. And then, according to the evidence of people like this, sending in militia to kill the survivors. And then, of course, we had the use of chemical weapons in August of 2013.

7:39Also in that city or that suburb of East Gouda, east of Damascus, 1 ,400 people, you know, foaming at the mouth and dying suddenly, men, women, and children, not to mention all of the other crimes of bombardment and barrel bombing and besieging Aleppo with 51 ,000 dead. You know, massive, massive crimes by this regime. And people want the truth established. There's still 130 ,000 missing, at least. They want the bodies excavated and identified. And then trials of the most serious perpetrators. They have a National Commission for Transitional Justice. It's talking about going after the worst of the worst and then perhaps providing ways for the others to rehabilitate themselves or to seek the forgiveness of families.

8:26But that will be difficult.

8:28Tim Pope:A big job ahead. Stephen Rapp, US, was US ambassador at large for war crimes issues. Thanks very much. Well, with the government that's led by the militant and politician Ahmed al-Shirai trying to grapple with the crimes of the former Syrian regime. It's also having to deal with external threats from its neighbours. The US envoy to Syria has condemned Israeli airstrikes this morning on a disused airbase in northern Syria near the Turkish border. Ambassador Tom Barak called the attacks an unnecessary escalation and in the last hour the Israeli Prime Minister's office has accused Damascus of allowing Turkish troops to operate from Syria.

9:03Tim Pope:Well we can speak now to Ibrahim Hamidi, Syrian journalist and editor-in-chief of Al Majala magazine. Ibrahim Tim, how significant do you think these airstrikes are today? Thank you for having me on the programme. I think it is very significant. As we all know, you know, it's after the change of Assad regime, 8th of December 2024, the Israelis, like, carried out several, I mean, we're talking about 100 airstrikes on Syria. They destroyed the whole strategic assets, Air Force, Navy, all ballistic missiles programs, all of them being destroyed by the Israelis. And since then, since the last 20 months, we, of course, we witnessed several airstrikes from the Israelis on Syria.

9:52But this one, this particular one in the early morning of today was very significant for several reasons. A, because it is very, I mean, it came after a long time of no airstrikes from Israel. B, it's very close to the Turkish borders. I think we are talking about 70 kilometers away from the Turkish border north of Syria. Three, this airstrike came after, like we know that Trump, the American president, has been trying to improve ties between the Syrian president, Ahmad al-Sharah, and the prime minister of Israel in the last few months. And he pushed the two parties to negotiate about security deal between Syria and Israel.

10:35And it seems that they fell. So it is very significant that Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, it seems that he's not listening to Trump's advice. And he decided to carry out this strike just a few days after the deal between Syria and Russia about the future of the Russian military bases in the west of Syria.

10:56Tim Pope:And the significance of Israel saying that it's Turkish troops that are being allowed to operate from Syria? Of course, as I said, this is very significant. We know that it seems that the Turkish president and the Israeli prime minister, they're not having the best ties, whether that is in Syria or in Gaza or in other parts of the Middle East. This strike, the attacks, I mean, we're talking about eight strikes, airstrikes on this military base in the northern of Syria, shows that it seems that we are heading, it's unfortunate that it seems that we're heading towards proxy war between Israel and Turkey and Syria.

11:44Tim Pope:Can you just bring us up to date? We put all of this in context, if you like, because we've heard about these death sentences for members of the Assad family. We're now hearing about what's happening with these Israeli airstrikes. But put it into context, if you will, what is the current situation in Syria a year and a half after the Assad regime fell? Yeah, I think this is a very interesting question. I mean, since Ahmad Shahra came to power, the interim president to Damascus, 8th of December 2024, we all know that, you know, I've been to Damascus several times since then, we know that the top priority that the new leadership in Damascus made was and is that just to do our homework, which is to focus on our domestic issues, because Syria has been suffering from civil war for 14, 15 years.

12:42Shara, the senior president, said, look, I mean, My priority is to do my homework, reconstruction, transitional justice, to rebuild the country, to lead this transitional period for five years. I'm not interested to have any tension anywhere with any of our neighboring countries. Assad was a destabilizing factor in Middle East. me as new president, I will do the opposite, which is just to be onward-looking, to focus about Syria. Now, that's why we saw Assad like that, sentences against Wassil Assad. Now, what the Israelis are doing, actually, is against what Shara is trying to do, which is just to be onward-looking, and the Israelis are trying to push him to try to think out, to be out-looking.

13:35Tim Pope:Ibrahim Hamidi, Syrian journalist, thanks very much indeed for that. And coming up later.

13:45I guess I worked throughout the golden age of the music video and that was wonderful, you know. Maybe it sort of had its day in a way. Having said which, I think the idea of images and music is really strong.

14:03Tim Pope:From Bowie, Queen and The Cure to Hollywood and back, we'll be hearing from the pop video grandee Tim Pope on his life in music, film and now words as his new memoir becomes a top ten hit of its own. We're going to return now to the story we began the programme with last night because oral arguments began today in the jury trial in California of the social media giant Meta. Four US states, representing a total of 29, are seeking billions of dollars of damages from the parent company of Facebook and Instagram for, they say, deliberately designing platforms to be addictive for children and for violating child privacy laws.

14:38Tim Pope:Meta denies those allegations. Well, California's Attorney General Rob Bonta is taking the lead in the case against Meta. And last night, he told me this. We are bringing a lawsuit in California against Meta for designing a dangerous product that is dangerous, defective and illegal. They had created features that harm children, the mental health of children, features that created anxiety, depression, addictive tendencies, body image issues, learning loss. And they were features like autoplay and infinite scroll, beeps and alerts, likes, ephemeral content that disappears. And they knew about the dangers that were created in these features, and they lied about them to the public.

15:24That is the core of our case, the lying, the deception, the knowing harm visited upon millions of children and their lies about it publicly that they made to Congress and to other places.

15:36Tim Pope:California's Attorney General Rob Bonta speaking to me last night. Well, in response to the start of the trial, Meta gave a statement to the BBC. It said the state AGs may call this a landmark case, but their limited claims are unsubstantiated. Their financial demands are vastly disproportionate. the AG's offer no proof anyone in their states was misled, claim benign features like having an additional Instagram account somehow harm their residents and attempt to penalise Meta for industry-wide challenges like age verification. Rather than sticking to the facts or the law, the states have instead decided to chase an outlandish payout.

16:12Tim Pope:We stand by our record of creating strong protections for teens and look forward to making our case in court. And in the past few hours in court, Meta's attorney added that the company had a track record of publicly sharing information about the potential challenges of social media and creating tools, including those aimed at time management. Well, Laurie Schott's daughter, Anna Lee, took her own life at the age of 18. Laurie, who's from Colorado, believes that Instagram exposed Anna Lee to psychologically damaging content. And she's been at the federal courthouse in Oakland to observe today's proceedings.

16:47Tim Pope:She stepped out of the court a little earlier and she began by telling me about her daughter. Anna Lee was the centre cog of our family. She was a beautiful little farm girl from eastern Colorado. She was kind and compassionate and she loved community service projects and she was just a happy child. And then what happened? You know, at the age of 13, as other parents, I looked at the platforms. It said age appropriate, 13 and above. I allowed Ana to have a cell phone to stay connected to us and the family. We lived in rural Colorado, so we felt it was important. But we gave her a phone with basically access to the world.

17:27And looking back at it now, we didn't know in 2020 the design tactics and the addictive design features of these platforms. And it basically pulled my daughter into a hellscape of mental health, algorithmic content that was basically dealing with depression and anxiety and things that was pushed to her, not of her asking, but it pulled her down into such a dark hole. You know, the content even told her not to tell her family and it just isolated our little girl. And what I thought was just a basically a teenager growing up ended up being the addictive design features of, of just sucking the life out of our child.

18:05Tim Pope:And after she took her own life, is that when you really started to look into this or were you already aware before she died? You know, I think along with every other parent, we said our kids are addicted to the phone. It was a battle that Anna and I had because we tried to keep those rules of the phone on the counter at night, but we didn't know the addiction draw that these devices had to children, the social media platforms. It hit so suddenly when we lost her. You know, she left us a note that said, I love my family. Don't be sad for me. It's not you. It's me. And it really reflects what these platforms did to our child.

18:42Meta knew internal research that one out of three girls were struggling with the beautification and the body dysmorphia on their platforms, and they did nothing to stop it.

18:53Tim Pope:And that was what you understood drove your daughter to take her own life, is it? Exactly. And it was in 2020 before any of us parents had really an idea how these platforms operated behind the closed curtain that they had. And with Annalie, she left journals and she wrote about how these beauty filters made her feel and about how she didn't measure up. And her messaging and her journals are such a key component in educating the world on what was going on with children. So when you hear, and you do hear it from people who defend the social media companies, that the onus is on parents. It's not on the platforms.

19:33Tim Pope:What do you say? You know, I will never disagree that parents don't have a role, but we cannot do it by ourselves. These platforms are designed by child psychologists, by engineers to keep these children engaged. You know, social media platforms are like putting children in a car with no brakes and no seatbelt. And we have got to do this together. And the access that the world has to our child in the bedroom, you know at night was something that we all have to be aware of but they play a huge role in this they designed it they implemented they controlled what my daughter saw it wasn't me what do you think of what is happening now this isn't the first trial of its kind of there are so many happening at the moment but you have been and observed others haven't you what what is what do you think is happening at the moment you know i think the world is waking up i think that the only reason that we as parents are understanding what's happening to our children in society is that these court cases are happening and that through the discovery process, the documents of these social media platforms are coming forward and we are finding out what they tactically knew and what they did to put profit over child safety.

20:43I was in LA for the court hearing, the trial with Meta and Google. I was there for the verdict. New Mexico, same thing, verdict there. So we are finding out that Meta knew, and I think we're going to continue to keep the pressure on them until they change.

20:59Tim Pope:Well, tell us about those changes. What changes would you like to see come out of all this? You know, parents need some type of control over their access to these platforms. And the addictive scrolling and the addictive alerts that they give turn those notifications off, the algorithmic content, the continuous scrolling that just does the whole dopamine effect on children to keep them addicted online. These are just a start, but these are key starts like the attorney generals here in the United States are asking for, that they need to have some responsibility in turning those features off. And it should be by default.

21:33They control the design. They control the algorithmic content that pushed to a child. You know, no social media platform should be telling a child to take her life. And that's what we're up against.

21:44Tim Pope:And that was Laurie Schott, whose daughter Anna Lee took her own life at the age of 18. And a quick reminder, if you want to listen back to any of this programme or to previous ones, you can go to BBC Sounds, where you can also download the podcast. The main headline so far on The World Tonight, three members of the same family have died after being pulled from the sea off West Sussex. Police say a fourth person, a girl, is critically ill in hospital. A court in Syria has sentenced to death a cousin of the deposed president, Bashar al-Assad after convicting him of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

22:17Tim Pope:And opening arguments are being heard in a landmark trial in California in which Meta is being accused of making Facebook and Instagram addictive to children. And one other story that we also brought you yesterday, the growing pressure on the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino. Well, tonight in an interview with the BBC, the Premier League chief executive Richard Masters has also criticised Mr Infantino's plan, which has since been dropped, to sell off the World Cup to private investors. I don't think the FIFA should be ever contemplating selling off a stake in the World Cup. They're a not-for-profit organisation.