Disability benefits could face massive overhaul in Timms Review

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1:13I'm Jane Hill. We're discussing PIP personal independence payments as the first report is due from the Tim's Review, looking into the benefit which is claimed by nearly 4 million people in England and Wales. Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be hanged in Britain, has been given a conditional pardon by the king. Ruth's granddaughter joins us. We report from Bangladesh where a severe measles outbreak has killed more than 700 and is pushing hospitals to the brink. And King Arthur. After another remarkable victory today for the rising star of British tennis, I've been chatting to Arthur Ferry's coach at Stanford.

1:52We start with one of the big questions of our time. How does the state continue to take care of the people who really need it at a time when money is scarce? In that context, tomorrow is an important day. It'll see the publication of a landmark review into personal independence payments known as PIP. PIP is a benefit for adults with long-term physical and mental health conditions to help them meet the additional costs of their disability. It's not means tested. Roughly one in six of the people who get it are in work. About four million people receive it in England and Wales, and that number has been rising substantially over the last few years.

2:31Well, the review has been led by the Disability Minister Stephen Timms in collaboration with disabled people and charities. We get the first part of it tomorrow, the second part later in the year, which will address what changes need to be made. You might remember that the Timms review was commissioned in the wake of a rebellion by Labour-backed benches against Keir Starmer's government over proposals that would tighten the rules for who could get PIP. Well, The Guardian is suggesting tonight that the review will find that disability benefits aren't fit for purpose, that the points-based system of assessment is effectively worthless, and that the process that people have to go through to get it is itself dehumanising.

3:13Let's hear first tonight from Sophia Kleanthus, because she's been in receipt of PIP since 2022. She claims the payment because of a recent ADHD diagnosis, as well as other physical and mental health conditions. She told me how Pip helps her to meet the additional costs of her disability. So Pip is an extra cost benefit, which means it's used for the extra cost of disability. Personally, for me, it helped me when I was homeless. It supported me with rent costs. I've been able to pay for therapies through it. I've been able to pay for mobility aids through it. There's multiple things that I've been able to pay for.

3:52And also I've been able to pay for taxis to meetings and my work. So there is an element of work, but I want to make it clear that PIP isn't an in-work benefit. And it's not an out-of-work benefit. It is a benefit for the extra cost of disability. And the extra cost of disability is anything that that individual needs as an extra cost. Like disabled people face a higher cost of living than non-disabled people. And so there's multiple things that we use it for. So if the sum was reduced, if the sum was removed completely, what would that mean for your life? It would make things a lot more difficult.

4:25One of the things I'm very concerned about is our community and the level of poverty that disabled people are already in and the impact that this could have on more disabled people ending up like that. And PIP is also a passport benefit. So it links to your access to transport, it links to your access to social care. It can often link to your access to like just any like other kinds of support. And if you lose your PIP, you lose all of those things. And for me personally, it would make work difficult. It would make being able to go travel, for example, difficult. It would make daily living that other people are able to just do more complicated.

5:00It would make trying to get mental health support and therapy and like private therapies, because a lot of the time the NHS doesn't meet the needs of disabled people. The waiting lists are very long or there aren't therapies close to you, so you have to travel further. It would make all of that incredibly difficult. And I would be worried about isolation and increase of depression for myself. And, yeah, I think it's something that I'm very concerned about, both for myself, but also for the wider community. Can I just ask you a specific point in relation to observations that some politicians make?

5:31I'm interested what your response is to politicians who say that PIP isn't the right place for someone who needs extra support with ADHD, that it's just not the right tool. What would you say to that? I mean, I would ask them why they think that, because ADHD is a disability. It can be incredibly debilitating. It can prevent you from being able to access the world. it can really make you struggle with a lot a lot of things in everyday life I have ADHD mental health conditions and also physical health conditions and I think this idea of like a hierarchy of disability is fundamentally wrong a lot of people with ADHD have multiple disabilities and a lot of the time you know a lot of things that happen with ADHD like you're often already had a really difficult process to even get an ADHD diagnosis what is really misunderstood about ADHD is how debilitating it is as a condition.

6:28And I don't think we should be looking at a hierarchy of disability or a hierarchy of needs. We should be looking at what do disabled people need and the idea that there is this over-diagnosis of neurodivergence and mental health, I don't agree with. I don't think it's right. Sophia Kleanthus on why PIP is so important to her. The Conservative Party has been calling for reforms to disability benefits. So I asked the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Helen Waitley, what she wanted to hear from tomorrow's review. We need to look at who is eligible, what conditions make people eligible, then actually what support people get.

7:04Do they continue to get cash payments, as is the way at the moment? Or should we move to more treatment, more in-kind support, more supporting people with equipment, more help so that people can live their lives to the fullest? Should we look at, I guess, sort of both sides of the story? So what should the individual who's receiving support need to do on their side of the bargain? and ultimately also look at the amount that we are spending on sickness benefits overall with a recognition that the amount is too high and the fact the rate at which it's going up is unaffordable. We've heard from people on this programme who would make the point that the sums that they receive as personal independence payment actually keeps them out in the world and keeps them earning.

7:47So it's, for example, someone who can't use public transport for whatever reason, But if they can get a taxi to their job, they keep their job, they stay in work. It's better for them. They're paying their taxes. Do you not see any purpose to the PIP? I, like you, have spoken to people who explained to me that is exactly how they use their PIP payments. But a couple of things like that. So one is that actually four out of five people with PIP are not working. So that is not what most people are doing with their PIP money. that is very much a minority of people who receive PIP. The other side is I do speak to, have many conversations like this, of people who are saying they're disabled, they want to work, but actually they're worried that if they do work or they even start and go and do training, they will then lose their PIP money because they will be judged if they're well enough to go out and do that thing, well, they obviously don't need their PIP.

8:40That is what they're worried about. So it is actively stopping people from working. So what I think we need as a system is much more geared towards helping people work. And in fact, there is a scheme called access to work, which is meant to be helping people who need help to, for instance, get to work because of disabilities. So that kind of system should be the route for doing that, not PIP, which is intended to help people with really serious disabilities with very direct help they need for that condition. So part of your argument is that it should be for very serious conditions. What are the conditions you believe people are getting it where they, in your opinion, just shouldn't be getting it?

9:19Their condition isn't severe enough? There are some conditions where everyone I speak to is quite clear that we, many, many people involved in the system, that it doesn't work to give people the benefits we're giving for, for instance, low level mental health, milder depression, low mood, anxiety, ADHD, mild end of neurodiversity. These are the biggest growth areas where we're seeing very large increase in the number of claimants and particularly amongst young people who are claiming welfare for this. And as I said, very often then it means that they are not actually going out to work because they'd be worried of losing their benefits.

9:56So those are particularly the kind of conditions where this system simply isn't working to support them. And what we should be doing instead of trapping them on welfare and out of work is supporting them to work. The Conservatives, Helen Waitley, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary. Well, let's speak live now to Rachel Maskell, the Labour MP for York Central. You might remember she was suspended from the party for spearheading that rebellion last year against disability benefit cuts that we mentioned earlier. Rachel Maskell, good evening. Welcome to the programme. Good evening. We're looking ahead to tomorrow morning.

10:30We'll find out more then, but it is widely expected that this review will call for some reforms. Do you agree, accept that PIP does need reform? Absolutely. I think all MPs recognise that this system that we've inherited does need significant reform, but that reform must take place with disabled people. And that's why I really welcome the TIMS review and the approach of co-producing the reforms that are needed, diagnosing what the challenges are, where it is broken, where it isn't working, but then looking to the future as to how to build a system which really works for disabled people, enabling people to move from dependency to independency, to ensure that people have the mobility support they need, but also the daily living support they need.

11:20And of course, ensuring that people that can work have that opportunity and those that can't are supported, but can be supported in taking part actively as citizens in their communities, but even people that can't manage that, having the support they need. We know from the work and research that SCOPE, the Disability Champion, has carried out, disabled people face a price tag of over£1 ,000 additional every month. That gap needs to be closed so that people can get on with their lives. We know that 28 % of disabled people live in poverty. That's a half of all people in poverty. That is unacceptable in today's society.

11:59So it's really important that we get this system right as it's built right through to the autumn when the final report is due out. A new system which is fair and equitable, which takes account of fluctuating conditions, mental health as well as physical health. Understood. And you mentioned, Rachel Maskey, you mentioned that the second part is coming out later in the year. Andy Burnham likely to be prime minister by them. How would you advise him to get the changes in the way you're suggesting, bearing in mind that the welfare bill is rising and rising and rising and you will know the projections?

12:36Well, first of all, we need to continue working with disabled people with that lived experience because clearly diagnosing the problem that way and understanding what life is really like for a disabled person is really important, involving people from across our country, in our communities in that discussion. Right. But what would you propose to him? How would you do that faced with a rising bill, though? Well, if I may address the issue of a rising bill, this is because we haven't had those active measures being put into the system to support people into work. And that's why I'm really glad that the government is looking at young people in particular, ensuring that people have got a proper pathway into work, the opportunity to try work, which, again, is really important, because if it doesn't work out, then to have that opportunity to return and to review.

13:24And that's the kind of compassionate system that we need, but one that also ensures that it gives people the right support. If we get this wrong and people have that essential lifeline removed, it means they become more dependent, more dependent on the state. And that puts pressure on things like social care budgets, but also dehumanises individuals and means that they're more isolated in our society. That's not the kind of society we want to live in. Right. But I mean, you heard Helen Waitley there. She says four out of five people claiming PIP are economically inactive. I mean, is PIP a barrier to work or discouraging people from working?

14:00Well, 52.8 % of people, disabled people, are currently not in work. And of course, being able to open up those opportunities is crucial. And that's why I think the Mayfield report was really important. but also ensuring that employers fulfil their obligations. We know that the Access to Work scheme needs serious revision. I'm glad that government has put significant investment into that so people aren't waiting weeks and months in order to get the support they need because employers aren't holding those job opportunities open. So taking away those barriers for people to access work is absolutely crucial whilst at the same time giving people that support.

14:40We must remember that many of these people have been failed in their education system as well. So getting in there early, helping people through, that's a fair and equitable society and one that Labour would be proud to create. Rachel Maskell, we must leave it there. Many thanks for your time. Labour MP for York Central. Let's just bring you a little more now on a developing story tonight. The US has launched new airstrikes against Iran along the Strait of Hormuz after President Trump declared the ceasefire over. The BBC's Nick Johnson is following developments in Washington, D.C. We've heard a lot of rhetoric from the president himself today as he was speaking at the conclusion of the NATO summit in Turkey.

15:21He said that the ceasefire he considered over. He talked of the Iranian leadership being scum. But I think still that these attacks, the second night of which we're seeing now, don't necessarily mean that the ceasefire is dead in the water. We know that Donald Trump has said today that the door is still open for Steve Wyckoff and his other colleagues to mediate with Iran and work towards a more long term peace settlement. Nick Johnson there in Washington. US Central Command says the strikes are in response to what it called recent unjustified aggression against commercial shipping and civilian crews in the Strait of Hormuz.

16:02there's a live page about all of this on the BBC News website where you can keep up to date with that as it develops tonight Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time a mom needed a new car Was she brave? She was tired, mostly but she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price no secret treasure map required Did she have to fight a dragon? Nope, she bought it 100 % online, from her bed actually Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on...

16:40Carvana! Delivery fees may apply. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

17:16Right now, we go back to 1955.

17:26On June the 21st, Ruth Ellis was found guilty of murder at the Old Bailey and sentenced to death in accordance with the law. On July the 13th, she was executed in accordance with the law. But Britain's conscience was uneasy. The British Pathé report there about Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be hanged in the UK after being found guilty of shooting dead the man she'd been in a relationship with, David Blakely. Well, today in Parliament, the Deputy Prime Minister David Lammy announced that Ruth Ellis had been granted a posthumous conditional pardon, saying the death penalty had been replaced with a sentence of life imprisonment.

18:05Her family had campaigned for her murder conviction to be overturned, arguing that she was physically and emotionally abused by Blakely. In 1985, Ruth's sister Muriel spoke to the BBC. Here she is talking to Joan Bakewell on Newsnight about Ruth Ellis' abusive relationship with David Blakely. I don't see how anybody could have liked the hide-ins that Ruth had because she was not black and blue. And at one period, there was a lot of hair pulled out of her head. There was a bald patch there where you could see right here. When he was treating her badly, did she come home? Did she complain? Yes, she did.

18:47She used to come home because she used to get treated by my mother, you know, for these bruises and things. Because she was so stiff at times, she couldn't move. Ruth Ellis's sister speaking in 1985. Well, just a little earlier this evening, Ruth Ellis's granddaughter, Laura Enston, came into the World Tonight studio. Laura was in the public gallery in the House of Commons to hear that announcement of the conditional pardon. And she told me what the moment was like. It was incredible. It really was just so surreal. And to hear the support once the announcement was made, it was just unbelievable.

19:26I just can't believe we've managed to achieve what we've done today. It's a really historic moment and incredibly profound for our family. Talk to us a little bit about that. Why has it been so important for your family? I know you were there with your brother today to fight for this. this whole thing has cast a long shadow over our family you know ultimately when ruth was executed she had two young children she had a 10 year old my uncle and she had a three-year-old daughter my mother georgina and ultimately you know i truly believe when that death sentence was handed out the clock was started on their lives too you can't even begin to imagine what those two children must have gone through and the impact it had on their mental health and you know ultimately my uncle committed suicide and my mother led a life of chaos.

20:13She died at the age of 50. And the ripple effect is still being felt today. It's been two generations. You know, we are still feeling the impact of the shame and embarrassment that ultimately we all grew up with. And ultimately, that shame and embarrassment was all based on a fictitious character. You know, Ruth was portrayed at the time of the execution to be this cold-blooded killer, you know, social climber, all these crazy headlines and that's the narrative I grew up believing and I spent 40-something years distancing myself from the story because I didn't want to be associated with that. You know, as a teenage girl, I don't want to be associated with all the things that Ruth had been associated with.

20:50So did you sometimes not want people to know that she was your... People did not know. When I started to lean in on this story, when the narrative changed, there was a new book that was published, a drama that was made, the narrative completely changed and I felt completely re-educated. but I had to go around to people I've known 25 years to say you know we've been friends a long time but I've got something I need to tell you. So some of your friends didn't know. I had no idea because I just didn't want to be tarnished with the same brush. What we now know is Ruth was on trial for so much more than just murder.

21:23She was on trial for her morality. She was really portrayed in a very sort of sordid light. She represented change. You know, she was a single mother. She was a nightclub hostess, but ultimately she was doing incredibly well in the face of adversity. She'd been abused by every significant man in her life. You know, she'd achieved so much. And don't forget, this is post-war Britain. So, you know, women were really being encouraged to go back to the home and be good old housewives. And Ruth was the antithesis of that. And also how she looked. She was very glamorous, very sort of Marilyn Monroe-esque.

21:54she didn't look like the the nice conventional mother that the government were really really trying to push at the time you've used the word shame several times already I know you say you tried to keep it from friends but did it impact you at school did some people know were there repercussions what in what way did it impact your life 100 % it was yeah it's had a huge impact on me so you know when I was younger obviously my mother was so traumatized by what she'd been through and And I look at it now as a trauma. Back then as a child, I used to think, why do you behave like you do? Why do you make these decisions?

22:30And, you know, she was just so fixated and almost sort of leaned in on the sordid side of Ruth and tried to sort of emulate that sort of like a mother-like daughter. And she had so much going for her. And this was sort of my frustration with her growing up. She was so beautiful, so charismatic. you know she had a wonderful network of friends and she was so loved but she just led a life of chaos and you know that for me impacted me in so many ways because I just didn't want to be associated with the type of lifestyle that she led and I would get picked on in the school playground and called names and I was just so as I grew up I was just so petrified of people judging me because of who my grandmother was and who my mother was I just carried this big sort of burden the secret and shame.

23:19And so does today's announcement remove all that for you? 100%, 100 % because as a family we now have been given permission to think about what life could have been like for us if Ruth had been reprieved. My mother would never have led the life she did if Ruth had survived. You know, Ruth had been given a reprieve and you know ultimately 90 % of women in the 20th century were reprieved but Ruth, she was on trial for so much more than what she'd done. And there will be people listening to you who have absolute sympathy for you. Why should you suffer? Why should your siblings suffer for something that's nothing to do with you?

23:55But they will also be thinking a man did die. He was shot dead. Correct. She killed somebody, you know, fact. And she admitted it. But what we now know is that in her trial, none of the trauma, none of the abuse that she suffered was presented properly in court. You know, her trial lasted just over a day. The jury took, I think, 14 minutes to find her guilty. She was executed three weeks later. There was no appetite to save her yet. All the evidence that was spitted into the application for her pardon was all there. Her medical records, extensive evidence to show the suffering and the abuse that she suffered.

24:36You know, she was abused by her father. She was abused by her first husband, then abused by David. And it is incredibly tragic that he lost his life too. But we now understand the full context and I think as a society we have a much better understanding of the impact of long-term domestic abuse coercive control and that's what you know we now see you know through her looking at Ruth and how she behaved during her trial she was very cold shut down but that added up to that cold-blooded killer narrative that had been portrayed of her at the time looking at her behavior through a modern day lens we now realize that was a traumaed woman on the stand.