Government condemns disorder at Portsmouth anti-migrant protest

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1:08Hello, I'm James Kamarasamy. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Monday 7th September. The government has said there's no place for threatening and thuggish behaviour after police officers were injured during weekend protests against small boat crossings. The injuries happened in Portsmouth after a dinghy carrying 120 migrants arrived on Sunday. We'll discuss the smugglers' change of itinerary and speak to the leader of Reform UK's group on Portsmouth City Council. Also on the programme, a former foreign secretary on the government's plan to ban trade with Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

1:42We hear about a bill to take back control of AI superintelligence. We find out whether Germany's far-right AFD can form their first state government and discuss the return of the in-betweeners. In the comments today, the Policing and Crime Minister, Sarah Jones, gave MPs a readout on this weekend's protests along the south coast against small boat crossings. She began with Sunday's events in Portsmouth, where several police officers were slightly injured. That protest followed the highly unusual arrival at Eastney Ferry Landing of a dinghy carrying 120 migrants who had taken a long 11-hour journey from the coast of Normandy in France.

2:20At around 8pm, a group of more than 200 protesters arrived at the harbour, intending to block three coaches which were due to take the arrivals for processing. Many of these protesters were dressed in all black and wearing face masks. Hampshire and Isle of Wight constabulary, with the support of other neighbouring forces, used a dispersal notice to ensure public safety. And officers were forced to use batons and pavispray to maintain order in the face of some aggression. Officers worked through the evening and into the early hours of the morning and at around 4am protesters began to disperse and the coaches eventually set off.

3:03That protest followed one in Dover on Saturday when several hundred masked men dressed in black and chanting Stop the Boats had brought traffic to a standstill. Sarah Jones gave this verdict to MPs. This government condemns the intimidating and thuggish behaviour shown by some of the protesters this weekend. We are working closely with the police in Kent and Hampshire alongside the National Police Coordination Centre, all of whom have our full backing in taking any necessary step to uphold public safety and maintain the peace. But in answer to a question, she said that there were differences between what happened in Dover and in Portsmouth.

3:42The two events happened on consecutive days, of course, and of course there was a crossover in terms of the online activity. They were very different in that one was clearly organised by a group of called the Southeast Patriots. I think it was part of Patriot Platform, which is a kind of far-right racist platform. That was clearly organised, whereas in Portsmouth, there was a response to a series of events that led to this boat having to dock Eastleigh Marina. And I think there will have been a mix of local people who were very concerned, as well as bad actors who were whipping up activity online.

4:28The Reform UK leader, Nigel Farage, has also drawn a distinction. Speaking about what happened in Dover, he said he deplored anyone wearing masks or balacalavas at protests. But his party's Home Affairs spokesman, Zia Youssef, visited Portsmouth today. He'd reacted to last night's events by saying it was, quote, the first time I've seen the state offer a police escort to men who are invading Britain, and I use my words advisedly there. But in Portsmouth today, he was confronted by Danny Tomo. That's the associate of the far-right activist known as Tommy Robinson, who'd organised the Dover protest and was also on the scene of the Portsmouth one.

5:06Please believe me, we're not here for the Portsmouth. I have every single man in that crowd has children, they have wives and most importantly they have daughters, sisters. Yousef, you know the crimes are being committed. We need action now. We haven't got three years. Your plan that you're talking about putting the Navy in there and all this is fantastic. But Yousef, what do we do for the next three years? Well, let's get a sense of what local Reform UK activists make of what's happened in Portsmouth. Reform UK is the official opposition on Portsmouth City Council and joining us now is the party's group leader, Councillor Emily Strudwick.

5:42Good evening, Emily. Good evening. You were at the protest, weren't you, yesterday? Did you see what the government has called thuggish and intimidating behaviour? Well, first of all, I think this minister's got completely confused because there was not 200 masked protesters arriving. No, I didn't see any of that. It was actually a great community spirit and people were rightly so angry at the government. But what she was saying happened, I did not see anywhere. Right. And well, I'm not sure whether we're conflating that. I mean, she talked, she drew the distinction between what happened in Dover and what happened in Portsmouth, didn't she?

6:19But I mean, what did you see in Portsmouth? Well, I saw people were obviously rightly upset and angry at the government and the fact that this was happening. And we were seeing police escort this different, two different boats, quite large boats. But actually what there was was a community spirit because everyone was on the same hymn sheet. Everyone agreed that this needed to stop. This shouldn't have been happening and we couldn't understand why it was happening. And how did you find out about it out of interest? Social media. Obviously, it's quite a narrow strip and people were posting quite rightly going, what's going on here?

6:54What's happening here? And I was visiting my nan on Hayland Island and went down and that's where I saw it all. And what was the aim of the protest? So on that, I think it was just to prove that they weren't happy with it. They didn't want it anymore. They didn't want it happening there. They didn't want them to even be allowed off the boat. I think that was the kind of feeling that we got from the protesters. In terms of what happened, the police say several officers were injured and it's the local police federation, the local conservative police and crime commissioner who have said that there was violence there.

7:31I mean, they were asked, Donna Jones, the commission was asked about how the government described it and said for a small proportion of the people that were protesting last night, yes, I would agree with the government's comments there. Would you accept then that there was a thuggish minority? I did not see any violence. The only violence or anything that slightly agitated was that the police wanted people to move and they weren't. So I didn't see any with my own eyes at all. Do you think you've made your point? I think there's more to be had. I mean, the point will be made if the government stop the boats.

8:08But specifically about going to Portsmouth, it's highly unusual, isn't it? I mean, that's clearly... Oh, absolutely. It's one road on, one road off. I don't know why they picked that point at all. It's madness to me. We heard there your party's spokesperson for Home Affairs, Zia Youssef, visiting Portsmouth today. Now, in Parliament, reform has been accused of fanning the flames. How do you respond to that? We're not fanning the flames. They are just highlighting what's going on and nothing's happening. Nothing's changing. That's why protests are happening, because people feel the government aren't listening.

8:44And it's not something we've made up. Everyone's been talking about it. In terms of why you were there yesterday to offer, to protest what was happening, would you say what happened yesterday was a success?

9:01it's hard to say to be honest it would only be a success if it doesn't happen again and obviously they couldn't answer that when suella braverman asked that question but the method of blocking the roads stopping coaches full of migrants leaving you think that's a justified way of protesting what's happening i feel that as long as it's peaceful then yes So the protesters there felt that they were heard and they got their point across. But, I mean, as long as it stayed peaceful, then everything that I witnessed last night was peaceful. Councillor Emily Strudwick, leader of Reform UK's group on Portsmouth City Council.

9:38Thanks very much indeed. Well, further into her statement in the Commons today, the Home Office Minister, Sarah Jones, said that she was concerned that people smuggling gans were launching boats from different points on the French coast and risking longer journeys. We must and we will be unrelenting, not least in response to any shift in tactics by the gangs. The use of larger boats with over 100 people crammed on board is a clear cause for concern and we remain alert to the potential for crossings on less frequently targeted stretches of water off our coastline. So are we likely to see more small boats arriving in different points along the south coast of England?

10:16Well, Madeleine Sumption is the director of Oxford University's Migration Observatory. It provides independent evidence-based analysis of data on migration and migrants in the UK. I asked her how common it is to see boats launched from Normandy. Oh, not very common at all, actually. The typical situation would be that a boat would, even if it launches not particularly close to Calais, it would pick up its passengers in that area and then cross the shortest part of the channel. And then the boats would be picked up by border force and taken into Dover. So that's very much the norm. There have been boats that have arrived in other areas, including ones that were not intercepted by border force.

10:55But this is an unusual situation where a boat launched from quite a distance from Calais in France and arrived in the UK quite a distance from Dover. What do you put it down to? Well, it's very difficult to say in any particular case. But in general, what we have seen over the past few years is that smuggling gangs have adapted their tactics. So while in the past, often the boats would launch with the passengers from the beaches relatively close to Calais, that became more difficult because of the heavy policing on that area of the French beaches. But of course, the French coastline is very long.

11:30And so the smuggling gangs adapted this by effectively using what's known as this taxi boat technique. So they would launch the boat with just one or two passengers some distance away and then come closer to the area where the distance to be travelled is shortest and then pick up their passengers there. But actually going this long route round and arriving in Portsmouth is a new development, is it? It is unusual. And there have been other cases where people have travelled slightly longer distances. It's possible that what we're seeing is, you know, not necessarily just in this case, but in general is adaptation of the gangs trying to get around the enforcement that is taking place.

12:11However, there are now some interceptions of boats by French police in the waters, in the shallow waters near Calais. And so if the boats are travelling for a long time in the water without any passengers, it can be easier for them to be identified and then potentially intercepted. So it's very difficult to know precisely how this cat and mouse game between the smugglers and the enforcement teams will play out. This particular route that we have seen, this long route to Portsmouth, is it feasible for that to become a regular route or is it just too long and difficult for that? I think it's very difficult to predict.

12:51It is longer, it's more dangerous. So I think the people making the crossing will want to avoid that kind of journey if they can. On the other hand, if the enforcement increases along the areas of the beaches that are most heavily patrolled, it may be that people are pushed out further away. And that's actually a dynamic that we see with immigration enforcement in many settings around the world. It can be a bit like squeezing a balloon. So you squeeze in one place and that can have an impact on the number of people crossing, but it also moves some of the problem to another area. That was Madeleine Sumption from the Oxford University's Migration Observatory.

13:28And coming up later in the programme, a new private members bill will be introduced in the Commons tomorrow. It would stop the development of AI superintelligence. If superintelligent AI reaches a certain point, human intervention won't be able to pull it back. We'll have an interview with that MP who's introducing the bill in about 10 minutes time.

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14:56Now, it's been reported this evening that the government is set to announce sanctions against Israeli settlements in the West Bank tomorrow. It's something that's been rumoured for months and that's prompted some furious pushback from the Israeli government. Earlier, I spoke to the BBC's diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams, about what we might expect to hear from the announcement. These are moves that have been in the offing for some time now, have been the subject of much speculation. What we know tonight is that this is finally happening tomorrow, probably in the form of a statement from the Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband, perhaps around the middle of the day.

15:31The details are not precisely known yet. In fact, the Foreign Office has been guarding this jealously. You haven't been able to get anything out of them at all. But the prime minister has been speaking to Labour MPs this evening. The government as a whole has been signalling this move for some time. And essentially what we're going to see is a move against products that emanate from Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank. Now, the government has for decades described those settlements as contrary to international law, but has never gone down to the next step of banning products, sometimes arguing that it would be too difficult to establish what is and what is not the product of a Jewish settlement.

16:11Those sort of reservations, I think, have been cast aside now. There is a feeling that ever since the government recognised the state of Palestine last year, that it has been moving in this direction and that it needs to be seen to be taking steps to try and prevent the continuing expansion of Jewish settlements to the point where, frankly, they render all prospect of a two-state solution impossible. So I think the The government, after a lot of soul searching and head scratching, is finally going to take what is quite a dramatic step and may not be the end of the process. There may be other moves coming which would target things like financial services, you know, whether British banks or insurance companies have connections and involvements in settlements in the West Bank.

16:58So we're at the start of what's likely to be a bit of a process. And what is the likely reaction to all of this from the Israeli government? Well, I think we've already been getting fairly strong indications of this. And you sense that the Israeli government, knowing that this is coming, is absolutely furious about it. The foreign minister, Gideon Saar, has said that Israel would retaliate. He hasn't said exactly how that might happen. But I think this is a central tenet of the Netanyahu government, the right of Israel to expand the Jewish presence in the biblical homeland. Something, by the way, that the American ambassador in Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a strong proponent of as well.

17:41And he has gone on record in the last couple of days as saying that this government is infected by Jew hatred. So there is likely to be a hostile response, not just from the Israeli government, but possibly also from the United States. That is our diplomatic correspondent, Paul Adams. Well, we're joined now by Sir Malcolm Rifkind. He was Britain's Foreign Secretary from 1995 to 1997 in John Major's Conservative government. Before that, he also served as Defence Secretary. Good evening, Sir Malcolm. What do you make of this plan? Well, I'm a strong supporter of Israel, but I'm not a supporter of the current Israeli government because the way they've been behaving in the West Bank has been disgraceful against international law and against all proper behaviour.

18:23So I think it is right that they should be severely criticised. But I do have some reservations about what the government is a party seeking to do. First of all, let's be quite clear. This is partly about internal Labour Party politics. The Labour Party has been shocked, was shocked at the last general election when they were winning seats all over the country, but they lost four safe seats to Palestinian and pro-Palestinian independence in what would normally be Labour seats. So that's part of the background to this that we should be aware of. Secondly, I think there is a bit of concern that whether you can effectively implement sanctions against Israeli activity in the West Bank, which is not, in fact, sanctions against Israel as a whole.

19:03But the final point is the timing of this. There is due to be an Israeli general election in six weeks. At the moment, it looks as if Netanyahu is going to lose that election. What the Israeli government will now do is say, what right do other countries have interfering in our domestic affairs? And that could create a backlash. I'm not saying it will happen, but I'm rather concerned it might. So the timing is one of the things you're concerned about? Yes. If the government felt it had to do this, why couldn't they wait till after the election? Because it's quite possible we'll have a new Israeli government in power.

19:36And if it is the opposition who win, they have not given support to this current activity by Israeli settlers on the West Bank. Right. So, I mean, that suggests you think it might actually backfire and have the reverse impact. I'm not too sure about backfire, but it's creating a major row at this particular moment in time when the government, this really government responsible for this, may not even be in power a month or so from now. And that is something that could have waited if it was not for domestic Labour Party politics. That's the point I have to come back to. Yeah. One other point that the person currently in charge of the foreign policy role in the Conservative Party, Tom Tugendhat, has said is that this could actually compromise British security by threatening to cut off Israeli intelligence and cooperation.

20:24Do you think that's right? I have huge respect for Tom Tugelhat. I think he's a superb choice as Shadow Foreign Secretary. But I have to say that on this particular point, I don't think that's right. I think on intelligence matters, the Israelis are far more benefiting from the intelligence cooperation they get from the United Kingdom and other Western countries than the reverse. And I don't think that's going to be a consequence. You've pointed at a number of practicalities and political issues that you believe are going on here, are problems. The principle, though, of sanctioning these settlements, you think you agree with it?

21:03Well, the principle I don't have any problem with, but the practicality, I'm a bit skeptical because, and I think it was mentioned in some of the earlier comments on this item on your program, how can you distinguish in reality, for example, goods that are manufactured by Israeli settlers in the West Bank, some of the components of which may have actually been made in Israel itself or vice versa. You know, you get into these sort of confusions, which will actually have to be dealt with. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, former Foreign Secretary, thanks very much indeed. Opportunity and threat, they are the yin and yang of artificial intelligence.

21:41AI's promise of economic growth and scientific breakthrough, amongst other things, versus its potential to take jobs, warp reality and even in the worst case scenario, to threaten our very existence. Following a series of recent rogue AI events, when AI models have apparently been able to act autonomously and pack into third parties, there's been another rather apocalyptic warning from Geoffrey Hinton, the Nobel Prize winner who helped to launch AI research. He wrote, Losing control over AI smarter than ourselves could be catastrophic and could even lead to human extinction. Well, that assessment accompanies a private members' bill designed to take back control over super-intelligent AI.

22:20That's AI with cognitive functions beyond those of mere mortals. The Artificial Superintelligence Security Bill will be introduced in the comments tomorrow by the Labour MP Alex Sobel. I spoke to him a little earlier. I asked him to define the technology that he's seeking to rein in. I think the thing that probably would concern your listeners the most is this concept of recursive self-improvement, which means that AI is autonomous and self-improving. And there is no human involvement in this at all. Why is that a threat then? We had this incident with an OpenAI model and this other company Hugging Face, where the OpenAI model is meant to be in a sandbox.

23:01So that's in an area that's protected, that's got walls, and it's not meant to break out into the internet. It broke out. It went to another company, hacked in to their system, discussed it with other AI models in a closed chat room, and tried to cheat and to lie to OpenAI. So it was malicious. so these things would be very powerful for self-improving and without any sort of morals or ethics programmed in. You're talking about your bill in terms of regulation but it's actually banning isn't it? No it's not it's not banning it's about ensuring that before models are unleashed out there on the market we know what's in them and what they do and that they are safe.

23:43Let me use an example of pharmaceutical drugs would people think it's acceptable that the companies could develop the drug, then without having to really do any testing, could just sell it in the open market. And then when they were asked what's in the drug, said we don't really know, but we do have a good idea of what it does. We would not think that's acceptable. My bill's about regulation. But you do envisage, do you, a time when if those checks and balances are in place, that artificial superintelligence could be out there and in the market? But the checks and balances are that we wouldn't get superintelligent.

24:20We'd have AI. AI's got loads of absolutely valuable and vital uses and is going to be the cornerstone of economies in the 21st century. But superintelligent AI, where humans are not involved and they have control over systems, is a different thing. How do you regulate in a way that doesn't specifically put Britain in a weaker economic position? Because clearly the government believes AI is a very important potential driver of growth. How do you do this without potentially limiting that? If the AI models being used are not super intelligent, then they're not affected by the bill. We are not regulating things that assist human activity.