Israel retaliates for British sanctions on occupied West Bank imports

19:49Israeli politician:I agree with Yair Lapid that this government has in many ways done the worst of all worlds. They have both not taken actual steps that would advance Israeli interests in Judea and Samaria. and because of their tendency for bluster, they also suffer the consequences of performative foreign policy by governments that are looking to pacify local populations.

20:20Ed Miliband:What do you think then might happen in the short term in what you have called by its biblical name Judea and Samaria and the rest of the world calls Occupied West Bank? Is this going to lead to changes in the way Israel approaches it?

20:38Israeli politician:Yes, I think this will actually increase support for the idea that Israel should take steps to apply its civic law and at least part of Judea and Samaria at least have some clarity of the area that it controls because the threat that was used to kind of say, oh, you know, European governments would do this, now it's going to be implemented anyway. So might as well pursue Israel's interests and make it clear which parts go under Israeli civic law and which parts, this is in my opinion, we should finally behave like the Americans in Japan, like the allies in Nazi Germany that will finally help de-radicalize the population and end their moronic war against Jewish self-determination because that's the ideology we're dealing with.

21:36Ed Miliband:That was the Israeli politician Einat Wilf. Well, earlier the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, Hassam Zomlot, came into the studio. What was his reaction to the Foreign Secretary's announcement?

21:47Israeli politician:Very positive. It's a significant day. It's a good day for Britain. The British values have finally been allied with British policy and action.

21:56Ed Miliband:What sort of day is it for the Palestinian people?

21:58Israeli politician:And finally, the Palestinian people get their share of international law, the full equal application of our moral values and international legality. It's long overdue. It took a long time. It took Palestinian people to go through ethnic cleansing, Nakba, genocide all the way in Gaza. but at least today we can breathe a sigh of relief and move on. In practical terms, what difference is it going to make? The main difference is this culture of impunity that has lasted for 80 years must end. The main difference is that without consequences, you will not achieve your policy. And the main difference is that countries, particularly the UK, has to take its own responsibilities seriously.

22:42Israeli politician:The first responsibility is towards the Palestinian people because Britain has something to do with it. The Balfour Declaration, the colonial era, promising our land without consulting us. So today, I saw a moment of leadership in the part of the British Prime Minister Andy Burnham and the Foreign Secretary Meliband to say, OK, Britain has a responsibility towards that, the Palestinian people, but also towards international law, which Britain has been a key architect of. The UK has such global presence. It's the neck of the international system rather than the head. And it can move things. And you saw 11 countries joining the UK today, major European and international partners.

23:23Israeli politician:So, yes, this is a turning point.

23:25Ed Miliband:We've also seen the Israeli reaction. They are, amongst other things, closing the consulate in Jerusalem. And that will have practical impacts, won't it, on Palestinians, British Palestinians?

23:40Israeli politician:They have no right to do so. This is a consulate that has been there long before Israel was established by Britain. And therefore, they have no validity of taking such a decision whatsoever.

23:54Ed Miliband:But do you accept it will have practical consequences for Palestinian people?

23:59Israeli politician:However, the main consequences for the Palestinian people is this unlawful occupation, as was defined by the Foreign Secretary David Miliband today. I'm sorry, Ed Miliband today.

24:10Ed Miliband:And was that for you, was that significant that the UK has moved from talking about the settlements as being illegal to accepting the entire occupation as illegal?

24:23Israeli politician:Absolutely. That's the major thing. It's no longer about individuals or even groups here and there. This is about the entire ecosystem of occupation. And that was absolutely clear today.

24:33Ed Miliband:I wonder, though, what you make of one of the critiques of what's happened, which is the timing, the timing during an election campaign in Israel, seven weeks away from an election. And some are saying this actually could have the reverse impact, if you like. It could embolden those who are backing the current government's policy. it could essentially backfire.

25:05Israeli politician:If you want me to say anything about the timing, it's just long overdue. It came so late. And look at the consequences of letting Israel go with murder, literally, for all these years. This impunity, this complete sense of... But specifically during the election campaign, you don't think it could embolden more extremist politicians? This has nothing to do with elections. This has nothing to do with Netanyahu. You see, the settlements is the crime. But the criminal is Israel.

25:32Ed Miliband:I come back to the practical impact, though, of what the Israelis are doing in response. Pushing the UK out of the Gaza Support Centre, removing support for Palestinian Authority forces in the West Bank. Will this not have direct and negative impact on Palestinian people?

25:53Israeli politician:Absolutely not. The negative impact is by this foreign military presence on our land that is stealing the land piece by piece, that stealing our resources, murdering our people, rounding them, arresting them without trial and charge, the level of human suffering is unprecedented. I am saying this, James, to say, no, no, no. Today we have to stop just describing things. It's not just about words. It is about action. That's why I was encouraged today to see the beginning. And by the way, again, this is not an end. This is a beginning that must be built on.

26:25Ed Miliband:That was the Palestinian ambassador to the UK, Hossam Zomlot. Well, relations between the UK and Israeli governments have clearly been under strain for some time, most recently over the so-called E1 area in the occupied West Bank, where Israel has opened up tenders for the construction of some 1 ,200 settlement homes, a move that would effectively, it's understood, end the possibility of a contingent, contiguous Palestinian state. As we heard in response to today's sanctions, Israel has taken unprecedented action against British diplomatic missions. The consulate in Jerusalem has been given 30 days to close its doors, while British diplomats in Ramallah, in the West Bank, and in the multinational Gaza coordination centre in southern Israel, they've been given seven days to pack their bags and leave.

27:14Ed Miliband:Let's speak to Sir Richard Dalton, who was British Consul General in Jerusalem in the 1990s. He was also British ambassador to Libya and Iran. Good evening, Sir Richard. First of all, the decision to close the consulate. Just tell us what its role is and what does closing it mean?

27:32Palestinian ambassador to the UK:The Israelis have no right to close the consulate. They do not have sovereignty in Jerusalem, although they claim it. the consulates of Britain, France and several other countries are there as a consequence of the agreements in 1948 that the status of Jerusalem was unresolved. The British Consul General in Jerusalem represents Britain in all Jerusalem, not just the Palestinian side. And the British Consul General in Jerusalem carries out consular functions for Israelis as well as Palestinians. And it also operates, since the Oslo agreements, as a quasi-embassy, a representative administering assistance, dealing with political contacts, encouraging the peace process forward with the Palestinian side.

28:30Ed Miliband:So what do you make then of this decision? I think it is unprecedented, isn't it?

28:36Palestinian ambassador to the UK:Well, I think it's for the British government to take firm steps in response at the right time, having first encouraged Israel to reconsider and maintained the British legal position that Israel is not sovereign over the Consulate General in Jerusalem. The Consulate General is not accredited to the State of Israel, and we should maintain, for the sake of international legality, the same issues of the importance of international law to Britain that are driving our attitude towards an eventual settlement and our opposition to Israeli colonisation of the West Bank and Jerusalem. We should maintain our legal position for as long as we can.

29:28Ed Miliband:What about the practical impact of this closure? What will it have on Britain's relations with the Palestinian Authority, for example?

29:38Palestinian ambassador to the UK:I don't think they'll be very significant. I don't think Britain's contribution through the Aid Coordination Centre in Gaza is vital for the administration of aid and increasing the flow of aid to Gazans, which they so badly need. The training mission with Palestinian security forces is about improving the performance of Palestinian security forces in relation to human rights and the rights of all who come under Palestinian jurisdiction. So removing the British presence there will have some negative impact on the Palestinian security forces. But there will be means to maintain the essential political contacts between the British government and the Palestinian Authority.

30:27Palestinian ambassador to the UK:And subject to how this issue evolves, I would expect there to be opportunities too for Britain's aid and assistance work with the Palestinian Authority to continue.

30:41Ed Miliband:Sir Richard Dalton, former British Consul General in Jerusalem, thanks very much. In imposing these new sanctions, the UK is acting alongside Canada, France, as well as nine other European countries. Speaking on PM, the Foreign Office Minister responsible for the Middle East, Stephen Doughty, said Britain had been the leader in coordinating the move. Well, to discuss that, I'm joined by our international editor, Jeremy Bowen. Jeremy, big picture, what is the significance of today? And of the UK seemingly taking the lead in making this statement?

31:12Palestinian ambassador to the UK:Well, they clearly wanted to make sure and drive home the message that this was a big moment, a reset, as they called it. The Prime Minister was sitting next to the Foreign Secretary as he made his remarks, and other senior Cabinet ministers were there. In all the many years I've been reporting on the story, I've never heard a British Foreign Secretary in the Commons speaking with such clarity and with such an absence of diplomatic fudge about this, you know, very, very difficult international issue. And he was very clear. And you think of some of the language he used, he said it was a moral emergency, that the Netanyahu government's actions in Gaza are a stain on the conscience of the world, including evidence of war crimes.

31:54Palestinian ambassador to the UK:He spoke of settler terrorism and ethnic cleansing. So that is, you know, that is very strong language, which you would not have heard under actually many governments, not least Keir Starmer's. So they want this to be a big moment. And I think the strength of Israel's reaction, despite the way that they'll probably be saying, look, we don't care anyway, shows that they're also concerned about it.

32:22Ed Miliband:And what of Israel's closest ally, the United States? Reaction so far muted.

32:30Palestinian ambassador to the UK:Yeah, Marco Rubio has spoken, but in quite a low-key way. I don't think Donald Trump has broken his silence or been on his Truth Social platform giving his opinions. Diplomatic sources have said to me that Britain worked very hard to prepare the ground for this, with the Prime Minister speaking to the President, a lot of diplomatic activity as well. And also I think sources are saying that there is a sense of frustration in Washington with what the Israeli government is allowing to happen in the West Bank. Israel has a very capable army and security forces. They could stop settler violence if they wanted to.

33:09Palestinian ambassador to the UK:But in fact, there are people in the cabinet who, with the back of the prime minister, have been essentially stoking the fire.

33:18Ed Miliband:Jeremy, many thanks. Our international editor, Jeremy Bowen, there with his assessment.

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34:59Ed Miliband:Well, let's turn briefly now to our other main story this evening. A day of disruption at airports across the UK, including Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, because of a technical problem with air traffic control. More than 200 flights cancelled, many others delayed. Well, National Air Traffic Services, or NATS, now say they have fixed the issue and the flight system is starting to recover. We'll get the latest on that in a moment. First, though, this passenger at Heathrow told us about her rather frustrating day. I was travelling to see my father in Germany and we were told after about half an hour

35:34Israeli politician:that there were problems with the radar system, the NAT system, that it had gone down. We were in the plane for five and a half hours. The difficulty began when we were escorted out of the planes and then it was just chaos in the airport. No one was there to tell us where we were going or what was going to be happening. So it was just following the crowd scenario. I've never seen it so busy before. I really feel sorry for families here with young kids. It's horrible. So I know that some people are going on further trips and they will just not have access to their luggage for days. I've been told that there's no point in me waiting here any longer because I won't get my luggage.

36:18Israeli politician:I've waited for about an hour for it. I mean, it has been exhausting since coming out of the plane has been the worst because of the chaos. So I'm a bit knocked out. Yes, I just want to go home. And that's where I'm going.

36:33Ed Miliband:One traveller's tale there. Well, let's speak to our transport correspondent, Katie Austin, who joins me from Heathrow. Katie, what's the current situation?

36:45Israeli politician:Well, it looks like obviously this has been a very significant incident today. And we think around a thousand flights have ended up being cancelled as a result. So initially this started off with departures being affected from the likes of Heathrow Airport. And then the impact sort of spread and grew as the afternoon went on. And then some arrivals were affected as well. I mean, partly because it's somewhere like Heathrow with planes not departing. That meant space just ran out and they just couldn't take arrivals. for a while. So this evening Nats acknowledged that recovery from this system issue, an issue with its flight data processing systems, recovery was taking longer than they had hoped.

37:32Israeli politician:The system issue is now resolved, they say, and Nats says it's operating normally, working as hard as it can to clear the backlog of flights. However, such is the knock-on effect of that earlier disruption that there's lots of planes out of position, lots of passengers stuck where they don't want to be. And therefore, it's not something that even when, you know, that system issue is resolved, can be quickly fixed. Now, I actually spoke to the chief executive of Nats this evening. I asked him if what's happened shows that their system aren't fit for purpose. And he said, no, that's not the case.

38:14Israeli politician:He insisted systems are fit for purpose. They will learn lessons. do an investigation to figure out exactly what's gone wrong here. And the Transport Secretary, Heidi Alexander, has also said today she's going to be seeking assurances that lessons will be learned and that the systems that support aviation can do their job, frankly.

38:34Ed Miliband:And what are airlines saying to passengers?

38:39Israeli politician:Well, I think passengers, some particularly smaller airports have said they intend that normal schedules will run tomorrow. But I think generally the advice for passengers is to definitely check with your airline, check the situation before you're travelling. I think some airlines have already decided to make a couple of cancellations into the morning. It's a bit more dynamic, I think, with other airlines. But there's also been a really scathing response from the airlines to what's happened today, given that there have There have been previous air traffic control failures over the past few years.

39:13Israeli politician:And I expect we'll probably hear a bit more of that anger as the days progress and as we find out a bit more about exactly what went wrong.

39:22Ed Miliband:Katie, many thanks. Our transport correspondent, Katie Austin, they're joining us live from Heathrow. Let's return to our main story, the government's announcement of sanctions against Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. We've had a look at the geopolitical implications. Let's turn now to the UK political ones. We have heard the accusation from Israel, as well as from opposition parties here, that this decision is partly about Labour trying to regain support from parties or individuals on the left, which have been rather more vocal in their support for the Palestinian cause. This is what Andy Burnham posted on X in July, before he became Prime Minister.

40:00Palestinian ambassador to the UK:I know many people feel that at the start of Israel's military action in Gaza, my party didn't get it right and I am sorry about that. The response has too often not been good enough. We need to do better. Yes, we have taken some important steps. These include recognising the Palestinian state, placing sanctions on Israeli ministers and imposing waves of sanctions on violent settlers and the organisations that support them. I also fully support the restrictions on arms licences to make sure that no British bombs or bullets can be used by the IDF in Gaza or in the West Bank. But let's be honest, the UK was too slow to call for a ceasefire and we must now do more to strengthen our approach.

40:44Ed Miliband:So what about that charge that today's measures were partly political posturing? Andrew Pakes is the Labour MP for Peterborough, former chair of the Labour Friends of Israel group. He is still active in it. Sorry, Labour Friends of Palestine group. He's still active in that one. Thanks very much for joining us, Andrew. Yeah, they're very different. Yes, no, no, I realise that. My mistake. Tell us, first of all, your thoughts on today's announcement. Well, look, I think it was a really important announcement, not just by the UK government, but by the 11 other countries. It showed real leadership from the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, but also leadership from the world community about putting pressure on the Netanyahu Israeli government about what's happening to that.

41:28Ed Miliband:Look, I'm a supporter of this government, But I was also a critic of the last administration in terms of the need to go further and faster in putting forward action that would live up to our moral standards, but also put pressure on the Israeli government. So I fully support what the Prime Minister said in the clip you just played, but also support the sanctions and measures we've seen announced today. What about the political impact? Is it going to bring back voters who have left the party for the Greens or indeed independent candidates because of concerns over Gaza, for example? Look, the most important part of the announcement today was the signal it sends to the Israeli government and those involved in the illegal settlements that the suffering and the violence isn't acceptable.

42:12Ed Miliband:It isn't a calculation about domestic politics. But I'm aware that many voters turned their back or thought we weren't listening when we saw the suffering. And if this makes people take a second look at Labour and they realise that we have actually got our values right on this issue, then I'd welcome to have that conversation with them. What about a conversation with the chief rabbi who said this was truly a dark day for British Jews and the sanctions were little more than political flag bearing for mendacious anti-Israel rhetoric that would embolden people who use hatred as a weapon against Jews?

42:47Ed Miliband:The real problem here isn't the sanctions and the package announced by the government today. The real problem are the actions of the illegal settlers and of the Israeli government. And I think we need to keep a focus on the problem. But what about the problem he is pointing to, the potential problem for Jews in this country? Look, I think all of us in the political world need to keep smelling the coffee when it comes to the rise of anti-Semitism. But I think it's a very different thing to talk about what we need to do on the world stage, so leadership against the suffering that's happening at the hands of settlers.

43:22Ed Miliband:And when it comes to protecting British Jews and Jews in other countries around the world, the two things shouldn't be linked. This is about Britain's values, as the Foreign Secretary said today, and taking leadership on those issues. Andrew Pakes, Labour MP for Peterborough, former chair of Labour Friends of Palestine. Thanks very much for joining us. Now, let's try and put today's events in a historical context.

43:47Palestinian ambassador to the UK:The drenching rain pouring over Mount Carmel soaks them, but no troops ever left a foreign land with less regret. The wives, whose sense of duty kept them by their husband's sides, are relieved at last of the anxieties and fears which threaten every home in Palestine.

44:02Ed Miliband:Pathé News report they're marking the evacuation of British soldiers from Palestine in March 1948. The British mandate would end in the coming months. David Ben-Gurion would sign the Declaration of Independence, establishing the State of Israel in May. Britain's role as colonial overlord has not been forgotten in Israel. The Foreign Secretary Gideon Saar's statement today did not only reference the Balfour Declaration, it also invoked a threat made by British Lieutenant General Evelyn Barker in 1946 to punish the Jews for the bombing of the King David Hotel by striking at their pockets. It's, well, joining us now, historian James Barr, author of A Line in the Sand, which tells a story of British and French colonial rule in the Middle East.

44:44Ed Miliband:Good evening.

44:45Palestinian ambassador to the UK:Hello, James.

44:46Ed Miliband:Hello to you, James. How significant would you say today's sanctions are in the history of British-Israeli relations? I think it is significant from a recent perspective because successive British governments have talked about taking action as Israeli policy has become more and more hardline. But no one's done it until today when you heard the Foreign Secretary talking about ethnic cleansing, for example, in the West Bank, which has been going on for a long time now. But that's the first time that the government has spoken out about it in such a direct way. And you've had a very strong Israeli response off that.

45:31Ed Miliband:Yeah, I guess that you wouldn't probably be surprised by. But in terms of the language or the actions, which would you point to as being more significant in that broader sweep? Well, I think, I mean, the thing is that the Israeli response sort of gets to the heart of this, which is that Britain has a difficult relationship with Israel because it once ran Palestine. As your clip showed, for 30 years, the British were the rulers of Palestine. and it was only because there was an insurgency against them that they left in 1948. So anything that the British say has to be seen through that lens and that's why the Israeli Foreign Secretary mentioned the Balfour Declaration which dates to the First World War where the British acknowledged the desire of the Jews for a national home in Palestine but then this episode in 1946 when a terrorist group called the Ergun bombed the King David Hotel.

46:31Ed Miliband:And the British general made a very ill-considered response saying that the British should boycott Jewish businesses in Palestine. And Gideon Saar, the foreign minister, references that today. What about the other 11 countries who've joined the UK in this action? There are historical resonances there, not least Norway, which of course mediated the Oslo Accords. Well, exactly. I mean, I think that, you know, this is significant and that's what does make it a watershed. It's not just about Britain, although obviously the Israelis have reacted strongly to what we've said. But yes, as you say, it's a lot of other countries.

47:16Ed Miliband:And this reflects something rather deeper and wider that's going on, which is that the public opinion has shifted and is much more sceptical about what Israel is doing these days. And you see this across the Western world, including in the United States, where although old people are generally still very pro-Israel, as you go down through the age groups, the support becomes less and less strong. And that is something that is going to impact the way that Israel is seen over the next few years. Yes, I mean, from Israel's point of view, has it been this isolated for decades? I don't think so. I think it's been warned over the last few years of the consequences of what it's doing.

48:08Ed Miliband:But it really is becoming more and more isolated. And the fact that so many countries have come out today saying that they're going to introduce sanctions is a reflection of that. James, many thanks James Barr there, historian author of Line in the Sand which tells the story of British and French colonial rule in the Middle East with the long view of today's announcement. Our closing headline tonight, the government has announced a ban on imports from Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank and measures targeting companies which bid for contracts in response as we've been hearing Israel has announced the closure of the UK consulate in East Jerusalem That is The World Tonight.

48:49Ed Miliband:This is James Kamara-Samian back tomorrow at 10. But for now, from me and everyone on the programme, goodnight.

49:18Palestinian ambassador to the UK:arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply.