Labour says reducing welfare spending is a "moral duty"

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0:51Hello, I'm James Kamarasamy. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Monday 28th September. Andy Burnham is to give his first Labour Party conference speech as Prime Minister tomorrow. He's expected to give more details about his plans for free social care for the elderly and vulnerable in England. There are also reports that he'll be proposing to review the pension's triple lock. We'll speak to the Business Secretary, Jonathan Reynolds. Also on the programme, the five suspects have been released after last night's arrest near RAF Fairford. So what do we know? President Trump has been taken by surprise by the announcement.

1:29He says he is threatening to impose a ban on diesel exports. And we'll ask what that might mean for one group of people who rely on diesel fuel, farmers. Plus a Ukrainian teacher's diary and the 11-year-old Londoner who's just become the youngest ever women's chess grandmaster. Party conferences are a time for conversations of many different kinds. So what kind of conversation will Andy Burnham have with the Labour Party faithful and with the British public tomorrow when he gives his first conference speech as Prime Minister? Well, he's already indicated he will be setting out his plans for an English national care service that's free at the point of use, an idea he says he will put to the country at the next general election.

2:12Well, today, Mr Burnham's warm-up act, the new Chancellor, John Healey, he was forced to keep his best tunes for next month's budget, but he did warn against allowing Britain's benefits bill to balloon while not offering young people opportunities. Conference, it's not progressive to allow a bigger and bigger benefits bill and a system which offers an income but doesn't offer a future. So once again, as a Labour government, it falls to us to act. And this is more than just an economic must. This is a moral duty. Well, let's look ahead to what the Prime Minister might say tomorrow. We are getting reports in some papers tonight.

2:54He might be talking about a review of the pensions triple lock. That's the guarantee that state pension goes up each year in line with either inflation wage increases or 2.5%. We're also hearing, as we did in the news, that he'll be announcing a new publicly owned body to invest in the electricity grid, the great British grid. We can discuss that with the business secretary, Jonathan Reynolds, who's on the line now from Liverpool. Good evening. Good evening. My voice is just about holding up today, but it's a good conference here. Good, good. Well, good conference and the big day tomorrow for the prime minister.

3:28Let's start with these reports that he is going to talk about reviewing the pensions triple lock in his speech. What can you tell us? Well, look, I would say that the content of the Prime Minister's speech, obviously, you know, I'm going to say you have to wait till tomorrow to hear them in person. I mean, I can tell you for this Parliament, we are absolutely committed to our manifesto position on the triple lock. I think it's important that the pensioners know they've got that reliability of what we're committed to. It would be worth over this Parliament about an extra£2 ,000 per pensioner in receipt of the state pension.

4:01So we are committed to that. People don't need to worry or think anything about that is going to change. But after that and a possible review? Look, I cannot tell you what is in the speech and I can only tell you what this government has been elected on to do and we will stick to that commitment. Right. What can you tell us about? You can tell us about the Great British Grid though, I assume. Well, absolutely. I mean, I cannot tell you how many conversations I have with businesses who are desperate to get a grid connection. there's tension in the system because we're getting so much investment into our energy system clean energy but also businesses need for their opportunities those connections so we're bringing in a new publicly owned entrant the first one since the privatization of electricity networks and it will give more competition more dynamism and more options in the system to do that if I could speed up grid connections for business I cannot tell you how many exciting investments I'd be on television and radio talking about so really welcome you know this pragmatic and sustained intervention to do something which will make a difference to the economy.

5:05Yeah, I mean, obviously the Chancellor today also talking about new industrial policy, new industrialisation, but energy costs are a big thing that's standing in the way of that, aren't they? We have such high energy costs. What is the government going to do to bring them down? No, look, it's a huge issue. We inherited these energy costs, which are for industry, the highest in the developed world. I mean, it's important for me to say we've already got significant programs. We have a program called the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme, which comes into force next year for our manufacturing businesses who qualify for it.

5:38That will bring down their electricity prices by around a quarter. About 10 ,000 businesses would get that. We also have a program called the Supercharger, which is a very competitive intervention. There's a relatively small number of businesses get that, but it's the really, really heavy, intensive uses of electricity. But look, we want the whole system to be one that gives us a competitive position. It's taken a lot of work to make these interventions, but the Prime Minister is going to talk about how some of the costs of that, like the grid, like this intervention with GB Grid, can be used to bring those down.

6:09And I think, honestly, that is essential to business, but obviously to consumers. Yeah, I mean, we heard recently Sir Jim Ratcliffe, owner of INEOS, saying he's had to mothball these three chemical plants because of high energy costs, and he's accused the government of economic vandalism. Isn't that a pretty damning indictment of the government's attitude towards businesses? No, I mean, obviously, it's a different situation for what Jim Ratcliffe is talking about there because those are gas-intensive industries. And, of course, there are no policy costs on gas. They're on the electricity system.

6:38The price of gas is obviously determined by the volatility of fossil fuels, the broadly regional markets. The issue for the chemical industry that Jim Ratcliffe is talking about affects all of Europe. Obviously, gas prices in the US are very low, but we could neither have the kind of fracking that has delivered those energy prices, gas prices in the US, because we simply don't have the quantity of supply that would bring down price in that way. So that is a difficult issue, but it is also about, frankly, how a lot of parts of industry sometimes play off different European governments around that.

7:09It is a Europe-wide issue. I'm going to return. I know you said you didn't want to speculate on the Prime Minister's speech, but because people are talking about this tonight, including the General Secretary of Unite, Sharon Graham, is talking about the possibility of the pensions triple lock being reviewed. She has told The Times, I think it would be almost electoral suicide. Morally, I just don't think it's the right thing. Your thoughts? Well, again, I mean, look, this is something which is speculated on, not just at party conferences, but I can give people that assurance. The government was elected on a pledge for this parliament to commit to the triple lock.

7:45We have committed to it. We'll continue to commit to it. There's no need to speculate or worry about that. In this parliament? Well, any government is elected on a manifesto for that parliament. I don't read anything into that. Well, the Prime Minister is obviously looking ahead to the next parliament. He's talked about this national care service for England, and he's said this is something he's going to put to the public at the next general election. So he is looking ahead. Because he has, what I would credit him with, is he's always had that commitment to the system. It goes back to his previous time in Parliament.

8:18He's talked about the family experience he's had recently. He's talked about the cost for the NHS. I mean, we all know this is the missing part of the system. And the fact that we have a Prime Minister willing to confront those big issues, real substantial issues, I very much welcome that. Just a final thought on something that's going to directly, potentially impact businesses. President Trump has talked about a possible ban on diesel exports. The Chancellor today said that the government's been in talks with the Americans. But can you tell us more? Because clearly, if that diesel ban is put in place, it is going to be very bad for certain sectors of society.

9:01I mean, a third or so of imported diesel in this country comes from America. Can you reassure people that the government is doing what it can to try and prevent the kind of shock that might come from that? Of course. I mean, I can give people that reassurance that this is obviously a very significant priority for the government. I mean, first of all, the cost of fuel across the board, it directly impacts cost of living, cost of doing business. You see it throughout the economy in prices and inflation. So that was one of the reasons, frankly, the government extended the fuel duty cut until the end of the year.

9:33the impact of fuel prices on the economy. When it comes to our resilience of our supply, I can certainly give people reassurance we have a diverse supply of diesel. But what about the prices? Clearly, we've seen the highest diesel prices ever in the UK today, £1.99 a litre. If the American ban comes into place, it's going to go even higher, isn't it? Well, look, as I say, that is why the pressure in terms of fuel prices generally, We've already seen decisions like that fuel duty cut extension. I can give people reassurance about security of supply. I think at this stage that it's not worth saying more than that.

10:11I can give people that reassurance. And of course, the cost of fuel is always going to be a significant issue for the government and the public. Jonathan Reynolds, Business Secretary. Thanks very much indeed. Well, also joining us from Liverpool, our political correspondent, Alex Forsyth. Alex, Jonathan Reynolds, not wanting to be drawn on this question of the pensions triple lock and a possible review of it. I wonder what you're hearing. Yeah, well, I'm hearing speculation as you have been and also ministers saying very similar to what the business secretary, Jonathan Reynolds, said just there, which is that they're not going to divulge what may or may not be in the prime minister's speech.

10:44I think what is pretty clear, and we should be clear about what we're potentially talking about here. So as you heard Jonathan Reynolds and we've heard the chancellor say today and other senior figures in government, there is no suggestion they're going to ditch the triple lock for this parliament. That's a manifesto commitment that again, minister after minister today has been very, very clear that they are committed to. The speculation is around whether or not Andy Burnham may give some sort of indication in his conference speech that perhaps the long-term sustainability of that pensions triple lock should, could, maybe be reviewed.

11:20Truth of it is, I don't know if he's going to say that or not because number 10 won't be drawn on it, but there is certainly chatter because the argument Andy Burnham is making is that he is prepared to look at the things or say the things that other politicians in the past haven't been. What else might we expect? As you say, keeping cards very close to the chest, but what might we expect in this speech? Obviously, more on the social care plans. Absolutely, he's been clear about that. And it is worth noting, actually, that this number 10 operation are keeping the circle of people that know the detail of his speeches and the budget and that kind of thing pretty close to them, which is a bit of a shift in and of itself.

12:00But yet we know that he is going to expand on his social care plan. He already has set out what he wants to achieve, which is some sort of national care service, free at the point of delivery, universal. Lots of questions about how that might be funded, which is where this speculation around the long-term future of the pensions triple lock has come into play. So he may say something more about the funding of the social care system or his vision for it. And I think one of the other big themes is going to be something else that he's talked about before, which is what he wants to see is greater control of public utilities.

12:32So I suspect that will be another theme of the conference speech. But overall, the tone is, as we've heard from the prime minister and the government up to this point, which is them trying to inject a bit of hope and optimism, trying to convince people they've got a sort of long-term plan for the country. And if that involves some difficult decisions, so be it. Because of course, the backdrop to this is the tricky situation with the public finances, which they are having to be upfront about. I think what people are crying out for is a little bit more detail about what all of this might ultimately mean.

13:05And we will await that detail tomorrow. Alex Forsyth in Liverpool, thanks very much. And coming up later on in the programme, we're hearing from a teacher in Ukraine who tells us about the realities of trying to give children a normal education at a time of war. We have a strict protocol at our school. If the siren doesn't end by 8am, everyone stays home for remote learning. And if the air alert ends before that, we go to school. And today we got lucky. Kids love to study in the classroom, but not in the shelter. More on that later on in the programme. Now, today began with a string of questions about the arrest of five men last night near RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire on suspicion of preparing a terrorist act.

13:49The US military has been using that base to deploy bombers to Iran. The day ended with them being released on police bail, but still under investigation, to the surprise of many, including Donald Trump, who had earlier suggested that the Americans had intelligence on them and that they had planned to do big damage to the base. I'm surprised that they released them. I wouldn't have done that. Look, they've been very good. They worked with us very closely. We know everything about them. We would not have released them. Well, it also ended with local residents who had been evacuated returning home after this surprising statement from Lawrence Taylor, Metropolitan Police Head of Counterterrorism Policing.

14:29I can confirm that following extensive interviews and inquiries, the five men who were arrested are being released on police bail this afternoon. To be very clear, this does not mean that the investigation is over. They are subject to stringent conditions on their movement and contact with others.

14:50Jonathan Reynolds:They absolutely remain under investigation as we explore multiple lines of inquiry. Well, earlier it had emerged that the five men aged between 23 and 25 are all UK nationals and are all from London. The Prime Minister had taken time out from his conference speech preparation to chair a meeting of the government's Emergency Cobra Committee, where he briefed senior ministers about developments. And after that meeting, the Defence Secretary, Wes Streeting, gave this update. It's too early to make decisions around attribution. We're keeping all lines of inquiry open, including the possibility that these individuals may have been acting either knowingly or unknowingly on behalf of proxies or state-backed actors.

15:35Jonathan Reynolds:But at this stage, it is too soon to make determinations. While we understand the significant level of public concern, it's important to bear in mind we have a live police investigation underway. We don't want to compromise the integrity of that investigation. And secondly, we have, in terms of operational security, the right systems and processes in place. We don't want to compromise the integrity of our operational security by going into too much detail. We will be forthcoming with the public on further details as soon as we can. But we've got to give the police the time and the space to continue their investigation.

16:11Let's get a sense now of how local residents are taking all of this in. We can speak to Tristan Wilkinson. He's a local Liberal Democrat councillor. Good evening. Good evening. Well, what do you reflect at the end of today? What is the mood like there?

16:28Jonathan Reynolds:um well i think my first reflection is um it's less than 48 hours ago that this incident's happened and so within the last 48 hours we've gone from five people being arrested in the dead of night an entire village being evacuated to where we are today with um very very thankfully those residents being allowed to return to their homes and um the five suspects being bailed um so So I think I completely echo some of the other sentiments I've heard this evening of one of surprise about the kind of resident, the suspects being bailed. I think from a resident's perspective, they are very, very grateful to be in their own beds this evening.

17:13Jonathan Reynolds:Good as some of the hotels in the Cotswolds are, I think most people would rather be in their own bed. But how reassured are they? I think that's something that's going to become more apparent in the coming days. I think there's definitely some lessons to learn from the last two days, one of which is that, you know, the number that we've been sharing with the local residents in case of any suspicious activity appears to have not been answered when needed. And I think that the reality is that once this current situation has calmed down, we are still going to be living next to an operational base, you know.

17:55Jonathan Reynolds:So until the Iran conflict ends, in the coming weeks and months, we will still be facing this. So the local community still need to remain vigilant and we need to make sure that the mechanisms to report any suspicious behaviour are robust and well-known to residents. So, I mean, changes then, you'd like? We actually happen to have some meetings scheduled this week with the base and I will be pressing them to make sure that whatever measures we put in place for residents, you know, the reality is you've got an army of dog walkers and runners and people taking their children to school. They are the first line and sometimes the last line of defence.

18:41Jonathan Reynolds:So we need to make sure that we give them the tools to be able to report suspicious behaviour because, you know, the reality is that this is quite a close-knit community. Three white vans in the dead of night will raise suspicion. So we want to make sure that people feel confident that if they pick up the phone, someone's going to answer. Tristan Wilkinson, Liberal Democrat councillor, thank you very much indeed. Well, let's reflect a bit more on what might have been learnt from all of this, although there are still obviously many questions. Ed Arnold is a senior research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute.

19:14He specialises in European security. And I asked him, first of all, what he thought about the latest developments.

19:20Jonathan Reynolds:Potentially didn't find explosives as initially reported. The investigation is ongoing. We will hear more information in the next couple of days. But I think the important thing to note is that in terms of the local population alerting the police, that worked well. The base was not compromised in any way. And actually this is the type of attack that we would potentially expect from Iranian-backed groups or perhaps even Russian-backed groups as well. So I think it's very important, as we do hear more information, that this is actually used as a bit of a test case to just show how heightened we need to be to the threat of sabotage in the UK.

20:00The fact that these people, and again, we have no idea at this point who they are or what they might have been doing, but they were able to get so close and to be arrested. Does that give cause for concern?

20:15Jonathan Reynolds:The base security was not compromised and there are a lot of standing operation procedures on a variety of different bases. This one would have been fairly heightened. The fact is that roving patrols may have gone out, but one might have happened at 10 o 'clock and another one may have been happening at 4 o 'clock in the morning or closer to dawn. So it just shows that vigilance and protection of these sites is very complicated. It's been stepped up, has it not, since the Iranians made their threats earlier this year? Periodically, base security is always looked at. When I ran a base, when I was in the army, you know, we'd periodically do it throughout the year.

20:56Jonathan Reynolds:We'd do it officially probably twice a year. But also when these events happen and if they do show vulnerabilities or potentially different attack methodologies, that's always when you need to start to improve base security. like we saw at the last major incident at an RAF-based Bryce Norton, when Palestine Action were able to get onto the runway and throw paint into some Voyager engines. That then instigated a very broad review of security. And I think the one weakness in all security systems, which is very human, is complacency. And when these events sort of happen, that is a very good indicator of removing complacency from base security.

21:36In your experience, did you have to deal with specific threats, I mean, state level threats like the one we had from the Iranians?

21:44Jonathan Reynolds:When I was in the army, this is over a decade ago, that was more Islamic threat based around Al-Qaeda and a variety of other groups. But in terms of securing location and also the people within that, it is in some ways the same. But I think that what intelligence agencies are seeing is the Iranians learning from how the Russians conduct these types of sabotage operations. So I think it's going to be very difficult for the intelligence services going forward because they have to look at these state-based threats. The threat to international terrorism has not gone down. You know, there's right-wing extremism, there's left-wing extremism.

22:21Jonathan Reynolds:There's quite a lot that the agencies and the police are now having to deal with simultaneously. And I guess what's changed then since your day is the drone threat. And there have been quite a few drone incidents near UK military bases over the last year or so, haven't there? I wonder, for people living nearby, should they be more concerned? Clearly, we've had these evacuations today, people back in their homes now. But I just wonder in terms of that threat, potential threat, and people living near to facilities which might be the targets of some kind of attack. Potentially. And yes, we have seen a variety of incidents, I mean, across Europe, particularly over the last couple of years, including with drones.