Meta to pay up to $18bn to settle claims its platforms harm children

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription. Hello, I'm James Kamarasamy. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Wednesday 26th August. Meta has settled in its mega child safety lawsuit. The social media giants agreed to pay up to$18 billion and to introduce a range of restrictions on Instagram and Facebook.

0:43We'll get reaction from a Meta whistleblower who testified at the trial and from a parent who blames Instagram for her teenage daughter's death. Also on the programme, what caused the fatal flash floods that swept along the border between Nepal and Tibet this morning, we speak to the head of the Dollywood Foundation about Dolly Parton's philanthropic legacy. As plug-in solar panels hit the UK's shops for the first time, we get a briefing on them, and we remember Tim Curry, star of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It was billed as a big moment for social media, and it is resulting in a large amount of money changing hands.

1:19The owner of Facebook and Instagram, Meta, has agreed to pay up to$18 billion to settle a lawsuit that was brought by 29 US states, which had accused the tech giant of designing products to be addictive to children. Meta denies any wrongdoing, but in a US-wide agreement, the company is committed to introducing a series of restrictions for younger users of its platforms. It's also made part of its payment dependent on its social media rivals, YouTube and TikTok, introducing similar features to protect teens. California is one of the states that brought the case and it's where a jury trial began last week.

1:57California's Attorney General Rob Bonta has welcomed the settlement. This is a significant victory for families across the country, for parents, for children, for those who are suffering in silence and those who are suffering in public. This is a major breakthrough, a milestone moment, a watershed moment, because when it comes to protecting our children's mental health, there is no time to lose. Instead of getting tied up in years of trials and appeals, we have secured the changes we were after. Meta has called the agreement an important step, saying it hopes to set a new industry standard. In a statement, the company said, ensuring teens have a safe and productive experience on our platforms is an absolute imperative for Meta.

2:42We want to get this right for parents and teens. Well, I've been discussing today's development with our North America technology correspondent, Lily Jamali. A lot of industry figures were surprised by today's settlement. What was her reaction? I was also surprised. And that is because we were settling into the possibility of a six to seven week long trial. We were in week two. And also because Meta, among the social media companies, has been particularly clear that they are less inclined to settle than others, including Snapchat and TikTok. I think they see this as a competitive threat to their business, settling cases like this.

3:25And what you see in this settlement is this push by the company to make sure they're not the only ones making some of the changes that we can talk about that are on tap as part of this settlement. They want YouTube and TikTok to follow suit as well so that they are not at a competitive disadvantage. Yeah, and specifically they're saying that part of the money will only be paid if YouTube and TikTok come on board with some of the changes. That's right. Right. So the settlement amount is up to$18 billion, up to being a very important phrase there, because only 70 percent of that money gets paid to multiple states automatically.

4:05The rest, that remaining 30 percent only happens if TikTok and YouTube agree to a suite of changes that Meta has agreed to make as part of this settlement. So I can talk you through some of those. The big one is the daily time limits for teen users on their platforms, two hours on Instagram and Facebook per day. Usage restrictions on overnight, limits to notifications during the school day. And the thing about that is that all of these will be done by default. Interesting. And the impact those changes will have, what's your assessment? I think it's potentially very significant. We heard the attorney general of Arizona earlier today talk about those changes as being a down payment on a different kind of social media experience for these young users.

4:55The attorney general here in California, Rob Bonta, said that this settlement is not about the money. It's about those changes. That's where the real win is for them. As part of this, it's important to note that Meta is not admitting any wrongdoing, but they are facing litigation, regulation right around the world. They're facing potential or already enacted bans on social media for young users, starting with Australia, which did that social media ban for under 16 starting in December. I think that when you have a settlement like this with the imprimatur of multiple states across the country from across the political spectrum, that adds some credibility to these measures.

5:37And I think it could help Meta head off more bans in countries around the world. Yes, I was going to ask about the international impact of this. Is the expectation that Meta will introduce these changes in other countries as well? Well, for now, what we know is that these changes would really only apply here in the US. But it is certainly possible that this could really provide some solutions that other countries can look to when they are brokering their own deals or dealing with litigation with this company. Is it possible to say to what extent disabling these features will harm Meta's bottom line, will have an impact on advertising revenue?

6:18Well, I can tell you that from what I understand, only about 1 % of Meta's revenue comes from these teen users. That's not a lot. I mean, you have to account for the fact that when you get teen users in the mix, then you're creating your future user base. So that's important. But Meta is not considered a top social media app for teen users. It's not number one, number two. Those would be TikTok. You have YouTube in the mix. Snapchat is also very popular with younger users. So it's not going to be a massive financial hit to them. You're also seeing the stock price of Meta going up today on the back of this news.

6:57But, you know, Meta has long maintained that they are not responsible for creating this crisis. They believe their platforms have value. They help, you know, young users find community. but they also face, again, plenty of litigation from school districts and local governments and other individuals who say they too have suffered the harms from the way these apps are designed. BBC's North America technology correspondent, Lily Jamali. Well, I've been getting more reaction to the settlement from Arturo Beha. He worked as a safety engineer for Meta for eight years before becoming a whistleblower.

7:33He was the first witness who was called in the trial at the start of last week and he was considered a key witness for the consortium of states that brought the case. So after today's settlement, does he think this could be the beginning of a new era in social media? Oh, that I believe it is, absolutely. I think that today is the day that they stand shoulder to shoulder with big tobacco. And when the tobacco consent decree came up, they were still able to sell cigarettes and the cigarettes were still as harmful. And that's kind of where we are, I think, in that process. but it should not be interpreted as an all clear sign by parents or public officials because the settlement does not address some very significant problems which remain.

8:13And I'm hopeful that the court can either modify or change the degree in order to address the issues that are still remaining. What about the safeguards that Meta has agreed to introduce though? There are quite a few of them, aren't there? From this default daily time limit of two hours for under 18s, only be lifted by a parent, the default nighttime block between midnight and 6am for users under 18. Again, only can be lifted by a parent. The idea that likes will not be displayed automatically for under 18 users, for example. Are those going to make a real difference, do you think? I think they will make a difference, right?

8:51I think it means that the product will be used less time in the day, and that's good. Removing likes is good, but they should also be removing views, because I think that really incentivizes young people to do some things that are harmful to themselves. The changes on beauty filters, those are good. So there's definitely specifics on this, which I was very glad to see got codified. Yet there weren't meaningful changes on sort of many of the things that make the product addictive. Such as? Oh, the way recommendations work. The body image issues, the eating disorders, the things that the algorithm delivers that are not addressed by the agreement as it's currently written.

9:29So it will be used less, but it will not be safe. And what about age verification, for example? IMET has agreed to institute robust age assurance measures to detect users under 18 as well as measures to identify and remove under 13, as I'm quoting from the agreement there. The practicalities of that, I mean, as someone with your engineering background, how can this be achieved? They've been able to do this for years because they have so much information about people that they can estimate fairly accurately the age of the person without needing to collect any more data. What's very good about the agreement is it codifies that.

10:10It allows for independent auditing of those processes. There should always be independent testing of them. And it also has metrics and milestones. So that is an example of something where there is a measure of the impact of the work that they will be doing. and that kind of measurement should be in other parts of the agreement. I do believe this will keep the youngest of the platform in a much better way than they've done to date once it's implemented. That was Arturo Beja, a meta whistleblower who testified in court speaking to me earlier. Well, when the trial began in Oakland last Tuesday, we spoke to Laurie Schott, whose daughter, Annalie, took her own life at the age of 18.

10:48Laurie believes Instagram exposed Annalie to psychologically damaging content. And Laurie joins us again now from Colorado. Welcome back to the program, Laurie.

10:58Arturo Béjar:Well, thank you for having me. It's a good day. A good day. Well, that answers my first question. You think this agreement, this settlement is positive? You know, I kind of agree with Arturo. It's like this is a turning point. There are some things that maybe we would have liked to have more significance in, but it is a turning point. My Colorado Attorney General was one of the four AGs in that courtroom, and he was the one that called and delivered the news to me this morning. So it started out as a good day. Right. Well, when he delivered that, he delivered it to you personally, did he? What did you think?

11:31Arturo Béjar:Of course, I cried and I thanked him. And he in turn thanked the people, the whistleblowers like Arturo and all the survivor parents that are fighting for this, for standing behind them and being voices and bringing our children's stories forward so the world understands the harms of these big tech companies. And were you surprised that things wrapped up so quickly? Because you were there for the start of the trial, weren't you? And everyone was bracing for, what, six, seven weeks? Yes. Yes. I had just texted my attorney general saying, when will Mr Zuckerberg be on the stand last night? And then I got this news this morning.

12:07Arturo Béjar:So it sounds like Mr Zuckerberg paid$17 billion to not have to take the stand. But in that sense, it was a good day. Right. Well, we're not here to speak for Mr. Zuckerberg or why he didn't settle. I understand. Yeah, you understand that. But in terms of why you are so positive about this, what is it in particular in the settlement or specifically, I guess, in the decision that MET has taken to make these various changes? What is it that you think will be the most effective in protecting young people? I think that the situation with beautification filters that impacted my daughter personally, I know that too well, and the like buttons and how that was impacting her.

12:54Arturo Béjar:And also just for us as parents to have a handle on what our children are exposed to and put in real parental controls. And I also think that the independent oversight that is going to be allowed to happen with these platforms are significant. It's obvious they cannot self-regulate. We know that. but also the enforcement of teen safety defaults on Instagram and Facebook are significant. You know, the turning off and teens being locked out from 12 a.m. to 6 o 'clock is huge. And the availability for stopping school hour notifications, I think, are important. Do you, and I know it's hard to say this to someone who has had a child who did take her own life, but do you think this will save lives?

13:40Arturo Béjar:Absolutely. It is a start. You know, is it a perfect world? No. But look where we've been four years ago, you know, when we started all of our advocacy as survivor parents. It was hard for people to even believe when we were talking about the impacts of social media. and until the design tactics came forward, until we were found in the courts where the internal documents were exposed, it's gotten the attention of the world. And it's not just a United States problem, it's a world problem. And for that, as we were discussing, this is changes that I think these companies are going to make for all kids that are in contact.

14:17Yeah, I mean, companies, plural, this was a case against Meta, but they have included TikTok and YouTube in the settlement. They've specifically called them out and said, you know, follow our lead. How important is that?

14:30Arturo Béjar:I think it's important. Any way, shape or form that we can get change and these other platforms to be included in that. In the United States, though, I think it's imperative that Congress acts. We think that universal guidelines and safeguards need to be put in place. So not only in the courtroom are we fighting, but we're also fighting in Washington, D.C. for all of these changes, safeguards to be put in place. Laurie, many thanks for joining us. Laurie Shot there, joining us there live from Colorado. And coming up later, we'll be in a different US state, Tennessee, where tributes are pouring in from people from all walks of life for the country music legend Dolly Parton.

15:10She was just the all-American person, you know. Everybody felt close to her and thought she was just their own.

15:18Arturo Béjar:I spoke to a gentleman earlier that told us everybody here gets completely free health insurance and the charity she does with the books and the reading. The woman did nothing but give. She was wonderful. I'm from the Appalachian region and Dolly had this program where she would donate books to people who were, you know, from needy areas and wouldn't otherwise have access to it. And so for me, that gave me a love for reading at a very young age. So, you know, Dolly meant a lot to us around here. We'll be hearing more about that charitable legacy that she leaves. We'll be speaking to the president of the Dollywood Foundation in a few moments' time.

15:57That was the moment this morning when a flash flood swept through villages on the border between Nepal and Tibet, burying whole settlements under water and mud. More than 160 people are now known to have died, and hundreds of others, including many tourists, are still missing. They are thought to include at least 33 Britons. These people in Nepal's Nuwakot district describe their experience. My brother-in-law had a liquor store here. I got a call from him this morning, and they were crying and said their entire house had been swept away. Three family members were rescued, but his brother is still missing.

16:39I saw around nine trucks being swept away by the floods, including people. It's a heartbreaking incident. I've been teaching here for 18 years, and I've never seen anything like this here before. Ray Gyalwali works in the tourism industry in Nepal. He's currently in the capital Kathmandu, but he was in the affected area a couple of months ago and he described what it's like. This is one of the borders that we have with Tibet. It's a crossing border for humans and for goods. It's an incredibly narrow valley and once it reaches the border, it goes pretty much straight up into the Tibetan plateau.

17:17So it goes up all the way to 4 ,000 metres on the top And this one, the border is quite a huge drop right at the bottom, you know, and it's a river. So it just wipes out everything on its way. So, you know, this is the exact definition of a flash flood. So, yeah, it's really tragic and devastating. I mean, there are villages, small townships in the Lantang trekking area that we usually start from, which are completely wiped out, completely. So what do we know about the causes of today's flooding? We can speak now to Dr Simon Cook, who's a glaciologist at the University of Dundee. Good evening, Dr Cook.

17:56Hi there. Well, what do you believe is the cause of the flood? I understand we're talking about a phenomenon called an ice avalanche. Yeah, that's right. So we think from an analysis of satellite imagery taken yesterday compared to today, that there's a big chunk of a glacier terminus. so the lowermost part of the glacier that is missing between yesterday and today. And we think that that chunk of ice has fallen about 1 ,300 metres, so that's the best part of a mile, down into the valley below. That ice has then got pulverised as it's just the force of that drop as it meets the valley bottom. The ice has gotten pulverised into smaller blocks of ice and slush and water.

18:46and we think that's the the main cause of the flood here um we we looked at the imagery yesterday and it looks like some of the the glaciers just um just around the fringes of the one that we're talking about here were covered in snow compared to today where they're not so it's possible there's been some sort of melt event uh snow melt event and that water has kind of found its way into the glacier through crevasses and and cracks and so on it's found its way to the glacier bed where it's sort of created almost like a lubricating film of water and it's allowed the glacier to slide off but that's really speculative at the moment um so so what the what the actual what's actually caused the ice avalanche is is under further investigation because i mean initial thoughts were that it might have been an earthquake i think that when i got to work this morning i had an email from a colleague in Canada pointing me to the potential for having been a glacial lake outburst flood.

19:48So a meltwater lake in front of a glacier that's burst. Other people have suggested snow melt events. Other people have suggested heavy rainfall events. Others, earthquakes. And the story has changed quite a lot. And how unusual is that when something like this happens? There's disagreement. Yeah, this level of disagreement. Yeah, I mean, we worked on a very similar event five years ago, and there's a huge amount of confusion and chaos, speculation, that happens in those immediate hours after the event. And, you know, sometimes it's unhelpful, especially if you're a rescue team. You really need to know what you're up against.

20:32But we're reasonably confident. I mean, we can physically see in the satellite imagery there's a piece of glacier missing and downstream there's chaos. So we're pretty confident about that. But there are a lot of unanswered questions still. What can you confidently say about the role of climate change and what's happened? There's little we can say today to be confident about that. I mean, like I say, it's a very fast moving picture. Lots and lots of data to look through. lots of things won't be clear until a few days a few weeks in the future when we've had an opportunity to look through seismic data meteorological data satellite data and so on because i was going to ask could that help predict similar events in the future um yes although that that's quite complicated i'll just return to your previous question about climate change so certainly climate is warming glaciers are shrinking and melting there's a lot more meltwater kicking around in these environments.

21:33Permafrost is so this sort of you know cold ground if you like. Some people often refer to it as almost like an icy cement on the valley sides in these high mountain regions. That will be warming and degrading and thawing so again that loosens things up more landslides and debris flows, more avalanches, more catastrophic floods. So climate change certainly will make these sorts of events more likely and there have been a number of big events in recent years in Switzerland, in the Italian Alps, in the Himalaya, which certainly add to that weight of evidence that climate change is having an impact.

22:07Dr Simon Cook, Glaciologist at the University of Dundee, thanks very much.

22:28Enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.

22:35Now, it's rare that we spend two consecutive nights reporting on the death of someone from the world of entertainment, but then the Queen of Country Music, Dolly Parton, was a very rare entertainer indeed, not just because of the duration of her fame or the breadth of her appeal, but almost uniquely in this day and age for remaining universally loved and respected by her fellow Americans. One of the main reasons for that, as we've been hearing, was her philanthropy. We'll be hearing more about that legacy that she leaves in a few moments. But first, a sense of how her death is being marked in the town where she made her name, Nashville, Tennessee.

23:07The BBC's Helena Humphrey is there. Tennessee's mourning someone who is not just a global icon for them. This is one of their most famous daughters. Dolly Parton came from the Smoky Mountains. One mourner told me today that she was the crown jewel of the state, the patron saint of the Appalachian, she said. So they're very proud of her for her talent and tenacity. But I think they're most proud of the fact that Dolly Parton gave back. She never forgot her roots. And so we've seen flowers and candles. We've been to those noisier honky tonk bars. And as you can imagine, Jolene, I will always love you.

23:44Nine to five playing out, attracting locals, also tourists. I met one woman called Patricia and she told me that she had been raised in a poor Irish immigrant household. in London. And because of that, her parents had brought Dolly's music into their household because it resonated with them, this idea of rural Tennessee and the poverty that Dolly had spoken about. It resonated with them. And you see people here of all age groups paying their respects. Last night, we saw teenagers who'd been to bars coming out in sparkly cowboy boots to pay their respect. And I think she cut across generations and political divides, like few other figures in America.

24:26Lots of spontaneity there, by the sound of things. Are there official events, though, being planned? Well, certainly across the United States, there are flags at half staff across the country. The Empire State Building was turned pink, as are government buildings here in Nashville. there's also going to be a tribute concert on Saturday at one of the famous Nashville music halls. Now, this is where Dolly Parton gave one of her first performances when she was just 13. She was introduced on stage by Johnny Cash at the time. And Dolly Parton was such a workhorse. She had further projects planned. She was due to open another hotel, the Dolly Storyteller Hotel, here in Nashville next month.