President Xi calls for AI cooperation with United States

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30and more options to their lineup, can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We've been talking about Kewpie mayo for a minute now, and wow, so many of you already love this stuff. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Kewpie? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise, the one with the red cap. What makes it different? Egg yolks. Kewpie is made with egg yolks only, giving it this rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Chefs use it.

1:07Restaurants use it. Where chefs work, of course. Food and flavor lovers use it. You haven't tried it yet? Well, find the red cap and see what everyone's talking about, why don't you? Kewpie. The original Japanese mayonnaise. Kewpie. Hello there. I'm Sean Lay. Thanks for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast from Thursday the 24th of September. Here's what's coming up. President Xi says China and the United States have an historic responsibility to advance human development. Does that include AI? And can they be trusted to mitigate the risks? Wednesday saw the highest number of migrants attempting to cross the channel between England and France in a single day this year.

1:49781 in all. But year on year there's been a 40 % drop. We fact-checked the numbers. We reported in the previous edition on high levels of a carcinogen, a so-called forever chemical found in people's blood in Lancashire. The chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee in the House of Commons explains why the government should ban such chemicals and make those who use them responsible for cleaning up. A former FBI agent tells me the hack of agents, private details just revealed, could be more dangerous than if a foreign government had stolen them, or indeed the mafia. and how African elephants self-medicate.

2:25Stay tuned for that. Donald Trump proclaimed himself proud of the relationship with China after welcoming President Xi Jinping to the White House on Thursday morning. The conflicts in the Middle East and in Europe were on the agenda, along with the fractious trade relationship between the two nations. President Trump outlined some of the other subjects up for discussion. We will also discuss pressing issues concerning security, technology and superintelligence, SI. The decisions we make in these areas today can promote peace and prosperity for decades and decades to come. And it was the United States Marines encounter with Chinese people that inspired the Marines to adopt a Chinese phrase they still use today, gung ho.

3:11The Marines use it as an expression of great enthusiasm. But in Chinese, it literally means working together. He should, of course, say that superintelligence is President Trump's preferred term for AI because he thinks the artificial in artificial intelligence makes it sound fake. For his part, President Xi said China and the United States have an historic responsibility to advance human development. He said AI should always be under human control. As the BBC's North America editor Sarah Smith explained on last night's programme, neither side wants to destabilise a relationship lacking much in the way of mutual trust.

3:48President Xi told his host they must ensure there is no conflict and no confrontation between us. President Trump said the two men have made tremendous strides on the issues facing our two countries, but there's little expectation of big announcements to follow. Even as President Xi was being lauded at the White House, a Republican senator denounced him on the floor of the Senate as a brutal, unelected and oppressive dictator. A little earlier this evening, I spoke to Congressman Michael Baumgartner from Washington State. Last autumn, he was the only Republican on a congressional visit to China.

4:22And I asked him for his impressions of the Chinese leadership. Well, it was important that Americans and Chinese meet frequently. And, you know, the fact that I was the first member of the House to go to China since 2019 illustrated it had been too long. And so I'm pleased to see this meeting with President Trump and the chairman. Anytime two countries have large nuclear arsenals, we should want the leaders of those two countries to meet and converse regularly. And indeed, one of the things that we advocated for on my trip was more direct military to military communication between America and China's military.

4:55So if a problem were to start, it wouldn't explode in a in it just due to lack of communication. So it is good to see this communication. And we have a lot of important things to discuss. What's the level of trust between the Chinese government and the American government in your view? I mean, after all, just what, less than 18 months ago, the president was denouncing China. He was going to tariff everything that he'd exported pretty much. And it got into quite a nasty situation in terms of the tariffs and then the export controls that the Chinese retaliated with. I don't think there's a high degree of trust from either side.

5:31I think what there is is a sober understanding of national interests between the two countries. And now when it comes to the U.S., you know, we're too dependent on China right now in some key areas, critical minerals being one, some certain types of technology. And so, you know, our national strategy is to try to make ourselves redundant and sufficient in critical areas. I always say the best way to avoid a war with China is to prepare for war with China. And right now we're not prepared. You know, 20 years ago, China used to be very to help us responsibly when it came to nuclear proliferation with countries like Iran.

6:07Right now, China has made the decision to help prolong the conflicts in Ukraine with their help of Russia and add instability in the Middle East with what they're doing with Iran. So there's important things to talk about there as well. Just on that, then, if they can't be trusted on issues like that in the way that Washington wants trusted Beijing, can they really be trusted on the question of AI? Well, I think it's extremely important that America maintain an AI supercomputing advantage over China. We have one now. We have better computing power and better data. China is adding more power to its grid.

6:45So really the key thing to do in that relationship is not about trusting China, but about making sure that we're taking care of our own needs here at home. China has shown a lack of reliability on a number of issues through the years. So, you know, right now, certainly no one in the U.S. side is going to say, hey, let's throttle U.S. supercomputing ability so the Chinese can catch up in the name of some regulatory regime. I wanted to put you something that Roger Wicker, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who's a party colleague of yours, said on the floor of the Senate today.

7:18He said our commander in chief, in other words, Donald Trump, should keep in mind that his guest is a brutal, unelected and oppressive dictator. Simultaneously, the president is telling the American people that President Xi is a great friend. I mean, the messages coming out of the administration are a bit confusing, aren't they, from a kind of average American's point of view? Well, you're going to have some basic diplomatic niceties when you invite someone for a state visit. And again, they should communicate. And obviously, on a personal level, President Trump is very hospitable. I was just with him at the White House last week.

7:50And, you know, he comes from the hospitality industry. He's very warm. And so, you know, of course, he's going to be polite on those sorts of things. That's different than what goes on behind the scenes. And no one illustrated the most sober and clear-eyed understanding of China than President Trump when he ran for office in 2016. I mean, it was, you know, people like that was 11 years ago. I just wonder if the realities of office have had to change that view. Well, you asked if people understand what goes on with China. And I think we do. And we also have a lot of confidence in President Trump and being a tough leader.

8:22None of that gets washed away by the fact that he's being polite with someone on a state visit. You know, America and China have to coexist for the good of the world. Devolving into a major conflict between our two countries, you know, would be extremely, extremely negative. But America also needs to stand ready to defend our interest and have a strong military. So, you know, the bottom line of this relationship is it's deeds that matter more than the words. And the deeds that matter the most are what the U.S. does internally to make itself a better economy and a stronger military, much more than what the Chinese do.

8:56That is Michael Baumgartner, who is the congressman from Washington state on the west coast of the United States. Let's pick up on what he was saying with Ryan Fadaschuk, who is a former advisor for U.S.-China Bilateral Affairs at the State Department under President Biden. He now specializes in U.S.-China AI competition at the American Enterprise Institute. We know that they talked about it, Ryan Fadaschuk. Do you think that there is any potential for a meeting of minds on this issue? Well, it's certainly the question of the hour, and I think it's a bit difficult to say that we'll have any concrete agreement following the summit today.

9:41Right. I mean, there is a very kind of fundamentally different approach. It's almost a paradoxical one, isn't it? China is a highly controlling society in terms of, for example, the Internet, yet seems to prefer an open model approach to AI. By contrast, the United States seems to prefer a closed one. I mean, what sort of kind of philosophical difference, if any, does that point to between the two countries? Sure. I think this is one of the key differences that you're seeing both sides attempt to reconcile. One of the key issues that both governments have started to hone in on is the way that AI systems might be misused by terrorist organizations or potential cyber criminals.

10:22And the fact is that China's openly available models serve as freely available tutors to those who would conduct harm, not just against the United States, but increasingly against the CCP. So this is, I think, an area of mutual interest between the countries. There's good reason for both the United States and China to talk about these issues. But what we're not seeing is any commitment, at least from either side, to prescribe certain capability development. I mean, this question of the regulatory one has loomed large in the last few weeks, not least with those in the industry, in the West at least, saying that they need some kind of framework, some kind of kind of rules, if you like, for the further development of artificial intelligence.

11:07We talk about these things being international technologies, but how do you contain control a technology when it is on an international scale unless it is through governments? I think it's a good point. But to be honest, I think both the United States and China have kind of a moving target in the way each wants to even approach the question of AI regulation to begin with. And so before we can have a serious conversation about trying to govern the application of this technology internationally, and as you've heard President Trump say, the United States is not in a position where it's going to sacrifice its sovereignty.

11:48Before we can even attempt to have a serious conversation with China about this, the United States needs to figure out what approach it wants to take to the regulation of this technology. There's obviously considerable political unease over the question of computer chips that can be used in AI, the attempts to control the production of those chips in Taiwan, the attempt to ensure that China doesn't access them. Is China now developing its own technology? Is China, as it has in other areas, seeking to copy and then exceed what has already been developed in the United States? Absolutely. And this is an acute fear of many officials across the Trump administration and American industry.

12:34I think there could be no doubt that certain Chinese chip makers are starting to make some progress in mirroring at least elements of the U.S.-led semiconductor ecosystem. My team at the American Enterprise Institute, for example, estimates that over the next couple of years, China will make significant headway in producing large numbers of AI chips useful in training and serving Chinese AI models to global publics. But before that happens, I think there's no doubt that the U.S. has a commanding lead, as Representative Baumgartner just mentioned. And the U.S. has several tools at its disposal to make sure that it can retain and expand that lead.

13:13So it doesn't necessarily need a deal. Absolutely. Ryan Fadasiuk from the American Enterprise Institute, former official in the U.S. State Department with responsibility of U.S.-China Bilateral Affairs. Thanks very much for joining us on The World Tonight.

13:43For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. From plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie.com. This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay, we've been talking about QB Mail for a minute now, Bow, and wow, the feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of y 'all love this stuff.

14:15You're stopping us in the street going, I love Kewpie. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Kewpie? Uh, do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know it, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo. Well, the answer, egg yolks. Kewpie is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Kewpie it.

14:53So if you haven't tried Kewpie yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand. Kewpie, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Coming up later in the program, we'll hear from a former FBI agent about a claim by a cybercrime group that it's stolen sensitive information on all of the Bureau's staff. That's 38 ,000 people, including their home telephone numbers and where they live. The former agent tells me he couldn't understand why the FBI had allowed this information to be vulnerable to hacking. If all that data's in there and the hacker group can keep going after it, why are you not taking out the information on your current employees and securing it better?

15:39Do stay with us for that coming up in the next 20 minutes. Now, here the Home Office says more people attempted to cross the Channel on Wednesday than on any other day so far this year. 781 people across 10 boats. The Cabinet Minister Lucy Powell told the BBC the numbers are down year on year. The government says they've dropped by 42 % compared to this time last year, but that officials can't stop everything all of the time. Separately, a video was released online of an attempted crossing from France on Monday, which has attracted a lot of attention because a young child is involved. Migrants wade out into the water off the coast of France and attempt to climb aboard an inflatable in what appear to be very choppy conditions.

16:20One young man is carrying a small child, possibly a baby, possibly a toddler, wearing a life jacket. The water appears to cause the boat to surge and rise above the man. He releases his grip on the child, who then floats in the water. French lifeguards were close by in their boat. They scooped the child onto their surfboard. They signalled to the man to follow them, but instead he tries to climb aboard the migrant boat. We contacted the man who posted the video. He uses the online identity, the Nowhere photographer. He's called Adrian, but he asked us not to use his surname. Adrian says he has no formal political affiliations.

16:55One of the videos he posted yesterday was retweeted by the anti-migration campaigner Tommy Robinson. Adrian told me about the scene he witnessed on Monday. I'm six foot two and I was pretty much up to my neck in that footage. And obviously with the waves crashing up and down, you're weightless. There's so much to take, plus the screaming and that kind of three to five minutes when that happens. It would be easy, and I've said this so many times, for somebody to go under the boat and pass away. How long have you been filming these kinds of events? I think March was the first time I came across.

17:29And the obvious question is to ask why. Yeah, I get asked that a lot. The short answer is, I have two children myself. I live in England, I've got a wife, and I see where the country's going. And I'm a photographer, a close friend of mine's a photographer, and he invited me across to come with him. And yeah, I just saw what went on, and it obviously fascinated me for some point, because we all see the footage, and you just don't believe that it's happening the way it is. It's 2026. We should be living in civilised countries where we shouldn't have to do this. People shouldn't have to make this dangerous journey.

18:12And I tell every migrant that I have a conversation with, please don't risk your life doing this. And that's not from a selfish English point of view. It's from a father's point of view, especially when they've got children. and it's not worth dying for. Every single person that goes across, they don't have to do this. We shouldn't have to. I think we're all to blame as Europe and the rest of the world. There's no reason to come to Britain. They don't have to take that risk. To actually find the crossings is the hardest thing. It's 95 % failure, more than that. So when the government says, actually, we can't stop every boat, from your experience, there's a reason for that.

18:52Some of this is difficult to track, is that fair? Oh, yeah, and also the French coast is vast. The beaches on France are enormous. And I do feel for the gendarmes, they are, on the whole, they're outnumbered massively in terms of numbers versus space. There's no way they could cover those beaches. And they are tied by the law, and obviously, how can you stop somebody on a beach? It's easy to say that as an English person. We'll just stop them. But how do you stop 200 people entering the sea safely? They haven't broken a law yet. And obviously when there's women and children involved. We're told that yesterday, Wednesday, saw the highest number to cross to this side of the channel at any day this year.

19:48but overall, year on year, the numbers are down by 40%. That sounds quite a big drop. Yeah, obviously I'm not a massive facts and figures person, but I'm not sure if the figures are 100 % accurate in terms of this. This year, even though the weather's been good, the actual waves and the wind and the channel have been bad. So in my opinion, if let's say 2027 saw a fantastic year for weather in the channel, I think the numbers would spike, to be honest, just purely off the numbers of people in these camps waiting. Let me ask you one final question. What, if anything, are you trying to achieve with your filming?

20:37I'd just like people to see, because my footage is quite raw. oh, I don't, there's no editing really involved in it. I just, I put it up as soon as I can and just show people. I try to give people a full picture of the fact that it isn't all just men. I think people get that misinterpretation that it's just, I can't stand the quote of military age men. There are a lot of men, but also these camps are full of women and children. The truth is, when it comes to the boat, the women and children get on last mostly, and they're always an afterthought. But with the work, I'd just like people to hopefully wake up and understand what's going on, but also, you know, show a bit of humanity to them.

21:22Adrian, who posts online as the Nowhere photographer. Well, Madeleine Sumption is director of the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford. It aims to provide impartial analysis of data on migration and on migrants in the UK. And I asked her what we know about the numbers of people attempting to cross the channel in small boats. Well, the overall trend is downwards. Over the past 365 days, there have been roughly 28 ,000 people crossing. So not trivially small by any means. It's back to roughly the levels we were seeing in 2021, sort of after the small boats phenomenon had taken off. But the trend is down.

22:00So a couple of years ago, it was higher, you know, up more in the region of over 40 ,000, 45 ,000. Why is it falling? There's a big debate about this. and there are some competing explanations. I think there's a good argument that recent government policy has played some role. It's difficult to disentangle precisely what, but there's the enforcement deal with France. There's the government's decision to prevent people who apply for asylum and then are granted refugee status from bringing their family members with them. And for people with family, that could be very important. People have also become less likely to get asylum.

22:36the grant rate for asylum is lower. But then there's also another explanation, which is not about what the government is doing, which is just that there have been fewer people coming into the European Union and crossing illegally into the EU or claiming asylum there. And that is likely to have fed through into fewer people making the onward journey to the UK. And just to be clear, because I think often people don't understand the routes that are taken. It's not a question of people just appearing in the channel from nowhere. they will have usually started from somewhere on the European mainland.

23:09Is that fair? Yes. I mean, they're original countries of origin. We're talking places often, you know, Afghanistan, Sudan, Eritrea. The journeys that people take are long and sometimes take several years. People transiting through North Africa, for example. A lot of people go through Libya, some through Turkey and then on to Europe. Sometimes people actually will spend a fair amount of time. Some people come direct to the UK. Others might apply for asylum in an EU country, possibly be rejected, maybe move on for other reasons such as destitution and then decide to make that onward journey to the UK.

23:44How confident can we be in the numbers? I mean, who is collecting the data and how are they collecting it? The data on small boat arrivals collected by the government, I think they are pretty good as a measure of who is arriving in the UK. And the reason for that is each individual is processed and counted on arrival, assuming that they are picked up by border force. And because there's so much surveillance technology in the channel, the vast majority of people are believed to be picked up. A couple of days ago, there were these what's known as uncontrolled landings where those weren't picked up.

24:20But that was very unusual. And in fact, the Home Secretary ordered a review, an urgent review into why that had happened, because the vast majority of the boats are picked up and then each individual processed. I spoke earlier to an individual who goes out and films or has been doing so over recent weeks off the coast and filming people trying to leave France and get across the Channel. He suggested that one of the explanations for the vigorous falling might just be that the weather this year has been less conducive to crossings. Is there anything to think that might be one of the explanations?

24:56The weather in the short run is very important. People tend to cross on days when the weather is better because it's less dangerous. It's much less important in the long run, basically, because the numbers average out. All you need is enough good weather days for people to make the crossing. What's the age profile of people crossing the Channel? I mean, obviously, there's a lot of public concern about children and babies. What do we know about that? The large majority of people who cross are adults. Over the past year of published data, the Home Office said that roughly 15 % of people were recorded as being 17 and under.