The PM vows to end existing triple lock on pensions in 2030

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret. Of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:01to the pensions triple lock. We'll speak to one of the first Labour MPs calling for that change. Also on the programme, the French presidential front-runner Marine Le Pen denies allegations of anti-Semitism levelled against the head of her party. An American released after nearly 40 years on death row, we speak to his lawyer, and a half a century after his classic double album was released. Stevie Wonder's fans get to hear more songs in the key of life. He came on stage to a song about the First World War Christmas truce and he proceeded to spell out the longer-term political battles that he intends to fight.

1:37Andy Burnham's first Labour Party conference speech as Prime Minister has certainly kept the headline writers busy with its array of policy announcements. But before the substance, there was some very deliberate scene setting, an explanation of why, the Prime Minister believes, those battles need to be fought. Everyone can see the position Britain is in. Everyone knows things are not working as they should. Everyone is talking about how life is too expensive. Everyone wants less drift and more direction. Today, I answer that call. Hope. Hope. Hope. Comes from honesty. And we will have hope again.

2:20But first, honesty. In a very personal speech that lasted for more than an hour and included one long and rather emotional pause as he gathered himself to speak about his late father. Andy Burnham, just ten weeks into his new job, began to sketch the outlines of a general election manifesto, whenever one is called. And among the issues he intends to put to the public, plans for electoral reform, options for a much closer relationship with the European Union and, as we speculated last night, a change to the pensions triple lock, designed to help pay for one of his main priorities, free universal social care in England.

2:57We promised in our manifesto to keep the triple lock unchanged throughout this Parliament. I will honour that promise. I will honour that promise. And I'll do more. I'll do more. That promise will take the state pension to a record high. From there, in April 2030, we will adjust it. The state pension will continue to rise every year, at least by prices or 2.5%. And it will hold its value relative to earnings over time. That adjustment, just to remind you, means a change to the status quo, under which the state pension increases by 2.5%. the rate of inflation or average earnings, whichever is higher.

3:51And because a year of high inflation is often followed by a year of wages trying to catch up, the argument goes pensions are currently locked into rises that are higher than necessary or indeed fair. We'll discuss that in a bit more detail in a moment. First, let's hear more about the broader contours of that speech. Joining us from Liverpool, our political correspondent, Alex Forsyth. Alex, yesterday it was all about, well, on this programme at least, speculation. Today, the peroration. So what was the mood in the room? Yeah, I mean, this was a speech that was, as you say, deeply personal at times, but also deeply political.

4:27You know, Andy Burnham, of course, has come in as the Labour Party leader, the Prime Minister, midway through Labour Parliament. They've had two years or so in power, a couple more to go if the election is as when expected. But yet what he was trying to do was spell out who he is and what he stands for, to articulate what he sees as the problems with the way the country works and some of the solutions he's proposing. And yes, there were continuations on themes we've heard from him before. So talking about greater public control over energy and housing and water, and we got a bit more flesh on the bone about what he means around that.

5:02So giving councils more power to bring empty homes back into use, for example, setting up GB grid to challenge the national grid when it comes to energy. But beyond that, what he was also doing was saying what he would want to fight the next election on. And that's where some of the bolder promises and more controversial promises, as he himself acknowledged, came. And that is things like looking again at the relationship with the European Union, not ruling out rejoining as a potential option in a future relationship with the EU, and that big centrepiece, which was changes to the triple lock to fund a national care service.

5:37Yes, and after the speech, a little bit of unpicking of the detail around some of that, especially the triple lock and what is meant by a national care service. Yeah, completely right. So what we know at this stage is that, as you say, at the moment, the triple lock guarantees the state pension will increase by either earnings inflation or 2.5%, whatever's higher. What the government is proposing after the next election, so from 2030, would be to break the annual link with earnings. So instead, the state pension would increase by prices or 2.5%. They say over time, if, for example, earnings were vastly outstripping the state pension, they'd look at a mechanism to bring it back in line.

6:16But it's that annual link that they are planning to remove. And what they estimate the money they would gain from that would amount to would be about£15 billion by 2040. So not an unsubstantial sum. The argument, they say, is that this would be part of a better deal for older people who'd have to worry less about spiralling costs of care eating into their savings. And in terms of what that care might look like, again, we've got some more detail. The proposal would be for free personal care, whether that's either at home or in a residential care setting. But what it would not cover at this stage is the bed and board costs, if you like, of living in a care home, which, as we know, can be expensive.

7:00It's just worth saying on that, Baroness Louise Casey is currently carrying out a review of social care. And we expect that she may come up with proposals around those bed and board residential care costs down the line. Alex, many thanks. Alex Forsyth there in Liverpool. Paul. Well, Graham Downey is the Labour MP for Dunfermline and Dollar, and he's one of the first called on the government to rethink the triple lock. He did that back in April and he's on the line. Good evening. Good evening, James. You were one rather lonely voice for some time, weren't you? What do you make of the fact that the Prime Minister has now announced this as a policy and a policy that he hopes to bring in after the general election?

7:43I think as the Prime Minister said in his speech. I think he's being very honest with the British people. I think that's what we need to do. We need to trust the British people that a Labour government can take these kind of decisions, can put these kind of things on the table. The things, frankly, that are needed to build the kind of country that we want in the future. So, yeah, having been a little bit of a lone voice on this for the last few months, it's really good to see the Prime Minister really taking this by the scruff of its neck and really speaking to the British people about those kind the changes that we need to make.

8:11Well, when you were that lone voice, or one of the few voices, calling for the triple lock to be changed or scrapped, you were very specifically linking that to spending more on defence. Now, that is not what the Prime Minister has announced, is it? He's very much looking at this to help to fund the national care system that he hopes to introduce in England. And what do you make of that? I think, Minda, when I wrote the piece back in April, was in the context of a conversation around defence spending in particular. I mean, those kind of big ticket items that I think the country does need in the future, social care is absolutely one of them, as the Prime Minister spoke very emotionally today about why that's important to him.

8:51And when we're coming to those kind of big ticket items that really are about the future of the country, the long-term future, it's a way to make sure that those other items, the big reforms that need to be undertaken to make sure things like social care and like defence are actually put at the forefront are on the table. and the Prime Minister has done exactly that today. You don't wish that he had linked it specifically to defence as you had wished? No, I think putting the triple lock on the table along with a raft of other measures, this is not just about adjusting the triple lock in itself but making sure that this government is saying we're going to have to take some big decisions in government if we want the kind of country that is secure and safe and prosperous in the future.

9:28The triple lock has to be part of that conversation. The Prime Minister has put that on the table today. He's absolutely right to do so and let's see where that conversation goes within the kind of country we want to see. Well, he has said pretty explicitly that he may have to pay a political price by trying to get through these kinds of reforms. I mean, specifically on the triple lock, what would you say to constituents, your constituents in Scotland who might not like the idea of smaller pension increases in order to pay for social care reform in England? Well, and to be honest, James, in Scotland at the moment, we've had the SNP who have failed to get through a national care service twice in Scotland.

10:04the care system that we do have in Scotland is frankly on its knees because the SNP are not willing to take the kind of big decisions and be honest and upfront and trust the public with what they would need to do to do that properly. They've taken the decision not to trust the public. The Prime Minister's taken the decision to trust the public, be really honest and upfront with them about the trade-offs and decisions that will have to be taken to deliver a social care service, a proper national care service. And I think that's by doing that first, he's going to be able to deliver that. Well, what then of the fact that his advisers after the speech admitted that this National Care Service would only apply to care at home, not to residential costs for people in nursing or care homes?

10:44I mean, we're going to see, as the Prime Minister said, in Louis' case, he's going to look at some of the details that she had in the introduction as well. But I think the crucial thing for me is that the Prime Minister was willing to put something like the triple lock, which has been seen for so long. I mean, the House of Commons, you can speak to people from all parties who will tell you privately that this is not something that's sustainable and it needs to be adjusted and looked at and examined. And everyone said, oh, no one will dare do it. There's the Prime Minister being honest with the British people, trusting them with this information.

11:10And we hear on the doorsteps all the time about how no one trusts politicians. They never tell you the truth. They'll never do the difficult thing. Here's a Prime Minister who's standing up, telling them the truth and doing the difficult thing, as he acknowledged in the speech himself, that there's potential political costs with that. But if we're a Labour government in power, we're here to make changes. We're here to improve people's lives or we're nothing. Graham Downey, Labour MP for Dunfermline and Dollar. Thanks very much. So what did Andy Burnham's speech tell us about his vision for the country?

11:38And will that vision speak to voters who aren't currently backing the Labour Party? Professor Jane Green is director of Oxford University's Nuffield Politics Research Centre. She's also co-director of the British Election Study. It's an academic project that analyses the results of British elections. Good evening. Hello. Hi. Thanks for joining us. The Prime Minister says that he wants to move on from what he called a decade of division and he wants the country to pull as one. So how much of what we heard today appeals to voters across the political spectrum, do you think, rather than just the Labour members in that conference hall?

12:12I think one of the really interesting questions that we face is we're so used to looking at what lands well with voters. And I indeed focus on this a lot. And it's a totally valid and reasonable question. And I'll definitely come to it. But one of the interesting things that Andy Burnham, I think, was doing today was almost saying, this is my vision, this is my set of convictions, almost irregardless to some degree of the electoral cost. Now, having said that, But, you know, one of the things I think was very noticeable to me today was that he was talking very substantially, especially towards the beginning of the speech about not just, you know, not just the Labour Party, not just sort of partisan politics.

12:59He wasn't taking pop shots at other political leaders or anything like that. But he was talking about a deeper disillusionment that voters across the UK have with the way politics is done, with the state of the country, with the kind of consensus. And you heard in that clip that you played just now about him saying everyone feels this way. And I think one of those messages really resonates right across the board. And that's that politics has been failing people for too long. so I think that isn't you know that's not a message just for the left it's very much a message you could hear Nigel Farage saying that you could hear Ed Davey saying that so so I think that's really interesting a universal diagnosis but what about the remedies he's proposing right um so in terms of you know some of these remedies I think you know first the first thing to say here so much detail is yet to come out and you know what he was doing today was talking about the kind of broad objectives, the difficult things, the things that people haven't grasped.

14:03Just on the question of social care, there's been a kind of view, and I've never really held it, that tackling the triple lock would somehow be electoral suicide, you know, predicated on the idea, I think, that older people, you know, prize this kind of increase in their income so much, but also that older voters are such an important part of deciding British elections they turn out Not in greater number, they form a larger part of the electorate. And yet, you know, we also know that the people who are feeling really economically insecure are not on average pensioners. It's people who are younger, people in their midlife.

14:42And many of those people in younger generations, especially those who aren't going to university, they're struggling to get on the housing ladder and so on and so forth. So what we have is this kind of strange situation where something feels untouchable electorally speaking. But actually, if you look at the people who have the highest degree of security financially, it tends to be pensioners. Now, that's not ignoring, of course, the really important questions around pensioner poverty and those people who aren't as lucky to have that financial security. But it's always seemed strange to me that this would be so electorally perilous.

15:19So you think it's not as much of a political risk as other previous prime ministers have thought? Well, I think, you know, what we see in Andy Burnham, and it's something that I think, you know, those of us in sort of the political science world have been sort of scratching our heads a little bit about before now, is a sense that you can lead public opinion as well as just respond to it. And that's, you know, it's a bit of a broad statement I'm making there that not all politicians have just responded to public opinion. But the idea that you can make an argument that, yes, the triple lock has been important.

15:55Pension and poverty has reduced all sorts of positive outcomes of that. But that also funding social care, the risks associated for people looking towards not just getting older, but getting older and frail and being unwell or unhealthy in old age is obviously something that's also been increasing and something that's a real worry. and I think you know recognizing that pensioners might many pensioners might feel they've been relatively you know benefited from house price appreciation all kinds of different things across their lives they feel financially secure but they're worried about younger generations and they have kids themselves and grandkids themselves and you know that you can make these broader arguments and that you can lead public opinion and change the terms of the debate around some of these things.

16:44And, you know, obviously these are really difficult things to do and we're yet to see very, very early days. It's just him really setting out the broad contours of where he wants to go right now. Broad contours, early days. Professor Jane Green, thanks very much for your assessment. And coming up later, a major musical announcement. Good morning, evening, friends. Here's your friendly announcer. I have serious news to pass on to everybody. Serious but joyous news for Stevie Wonder fans as some very rare moments from his archive are finally released. That's coming up in about 20 minutes' time. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing.

17:38This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret. of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

18:10Now, we don't know yet when Andy Byrne will put these big policy ideas to the public in an election, but we do know when our neighbours across the channel will be choosing their next leader, and that's next year, because that is when the French presidential election takes place, and according to the latest opinion polls, the most likely winner, the front-runner at least, is Marine Le Pen, leader of the populist right-wing national rally, and she got a boost at the weekend when her party gained enough seats in French Senate elections to form a grouping in France's upper House of Parliament for the first time.

18:41It's another sign that her battle to what's called de-demonise the anti-immigration party that was founded by her late father Jean-Marie Le Pen is succeeding. Le Pen senior's famous, infamous dismissal of the Nazi gas chambers as a detail of history has haunted the party, formerly known as the National Front. Now, there are new accusations of alleged historic anti-Semitism. They've been levelled against its leader, 31-year-old Jordan Bardella. Bardella condemned the beginnings of a total war aimed at what he said was destabilising his party. He said he will sue for libel. That's after the left-wing news website Mediapart published alleged comments it said had been independently authenticated.

19:22Alexandre Sabatou is the National Rally MP for the third constituency of the Rois in northern France. he gave this reaction to the world tonight. We know that the system will do whatever it takes to weaken our position in the next presidential election. We are sure that every day they will try to find something else. We are prepared to defend ourselves and our honour against the media. We just had our great victory in Senate elections. This is the first time that we will have a group of Rassemblement National patriots in the Senate. We are very hopeful for the next few months And we really believe that we will be able to win this election and change things in France.

20:01The view there from National Rally MP. Let's get more on this now. We can speak to Catherine Norris-Trent, senior correspondent at France 24, is on the line from Paris. Good evening, Catherine. Quite a few days for the party. Let's start, first of all, with the Senate, because that is quite significant, isn't it? Yeah, it is the first time ever that the National Rally has had enough senators to form a group. So they've had a few isolated members of the Senate before, but enough to form a group there and therefore be able to set the agenda somewhat and have a few more powers there in that upper house of parliament in France.

20:42Now, those senators aren't directly elected. They're elected by local politicians, by mayors, basically. But that shows also that they're gaining on the ground across France. And they are in charge of quite a few municipalities and mayoralties across France. so the party there, Marine Le Pen, really hailing that as a victory for them and saying that it would be a boost for them going forward but that was before the scandal or the allegations surrounding Jordan Bardella then broke out. Yes, so tell us more about them. What exactly is he alleged to have written? Because it's all written, isn't it?

21:19Yes, these are written messages which the French investigative publication Mediapart says were published between 2013 and 2015. We believe they're electronic written messages, which the newspaper says that they have had checked out by tech experts to try and verify their authenticity. So at the time, Jordan Bardella was very young, some of them, he wasn't even aged 18, he's only 31 at the moment. And the contents of these messages allegedly written by Jordan Bardella are, well, anti-Semitic stereotypes. I'm going to read some of them out for you. What they're quoted as saying, he says that all the banks are owned by Jews.

22:06Jews must dominate other peoples, crush them and rob them. End of quotation. Of course, those allegations reported by Mediapart and Jordan Bardella has strenuously denied them. Yeah, I mean, he's taking out court case, I think, isn't he? Yeah, he says he's opening a defamation case against them and came out fighting at a press appearance this morning saying that he'd never written them. So he's not writing this off as errors of youth. He's saying that this was not him. And in fact, the party have rallied around behind him and come out saying that this was a full out attack on the National Rally Party and using some pretty strong language themselves.

22:48Marine Le Pen said that Media Part, this investigative website, should get its bulletproof vest ready, which some are taking as very violent language indeed. Yeah, Christ. Well, indeed. But what about evidence? Have they produced any evidence of these documents? So, so far, we haven't seen the actual messages themselves reproduced in their original form. Media Parts say that if they are compelled to do so, they will bring those forward. So we've seen these quotations reported by Media Part. And we believe there could be more revelations to come. Jordan Bardella himself has said he's stealing himself for that.

23:32Media Part have said they've checked out these messages thoroughly, that they are convinced that they are true, that they've run them by tech experts and that they've seen, they've managed to authenticate where they've come from. Now, if this does go to court, that will presumably be tested, but it also might be tested in the coming days if this saga runs on and Mediapart feel that they have to publish their evidence in order to shore up their own credibility. Catherine Norris-Trent in Paris, senior correspondent with France 24. Thanks very much. 41 years and most of them on death row. That is how long Douglas Stuart Carter spent in prison after he was convicted of killing a woman called Eva Ollison in the state of Utah.

24:16Last night, the American was freed on bail following new analysis of DNA that was found at the crime scene. Utah's Supreme Court had already ordered that there should be a new trial because of misconduct by investigators. Two witnesses who said that they had seen Carter boasting about the killing, later recanted. Well, the 71-year-old has always maintained his innocence. He has not, though, been exonerated. Just before his release, his son, Tyler Anger, who'd been given up for adoption and was 18 years old when he found out he had a biological father on death row, spoke to reporters. Hopefully he doesn't get too jittery because it's been a while.

24:54I want him to see the stars. I'd like for him to just get a life that we all get to live. None of us understand what this guy's gone through and how crazy it's going to be to step out here. Well, earlier I spoke to Douglas Carter's defence lawyer, Neil Hamilton, and he told me how he felt after all the hard work. Surreal. Very, very surreal. I've never had a moment like this in my career. I hope to never have another moment like this. stress relief joy frustration happiness anger rage righteous righteous indignation you name it we're we're feeling it all but above all we're happy that Doug's home and how is he feeling he's feeling a lot Doug has not allowed himself to hope for the last 41 years so that he actually walked out on his own volition last night that was a lot for him he doesn't really know what to do right now he's just wondering looking at our world in awe because the world he entered into is not the world that he was taken out of he's just going day by day i know that they tried to get his identification this morning and they were going to go for a drive up one of our canyons to see the fall leaves and just let doug take it in and just enjoy the moment and enjoy his freedom we are riding the shoulders of giants on this doug has had the assistance of many many wonderful attorneys who uncovered the misconduct and successfully petitioned the court.

26:27We know that Eva's killer left blood behind on the crime scene. The analysis finally came through and we had a side-by-side comparison and they have definitively excluded Doug. So now the state crime lab has confirmed what Doug has said for 41 years, which is, I didn't do this. He did make a confession, but then he later said he was coerced into that and maintained his innocence. That confession was dictated by the officer whose misconduct led to his conviction and the overturning. Lieutenant George Pierpont went out to Tennessee. He got Doug to confess by threatening a friend that Doug had. Doug and the friend have both confirmed this.

27:08He then said, I want you to confess. And Doug, not being there and not being guilty. He didn't know what to say. So the lieutenant dictated the confession. All Doug did was sign it. Explain then, if you will, if the confession was now found to have been coerced, the physical evidence apparently linking him to the crime scene has now been found not to link him. The two witnesses who had testified that he had bragged about killing the victim recanted. The judge is saying, though, that a reasonable jury could still conclude that he was the killer. Well, his confession has not yet been suppressed.