Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan sign new defence pact

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0:30Designed by She's Birdie for hotels, dorms, Airbnbs, and anywhere you're staying away from home. It installs in seconds on the doorframe, and if the door is opened, it activates a loud siren and flashing strobe to help draw attention instantly. She's Birdie. Because peace of mind should check in with you. Birdie Box by She's Birdie. Visit She's Birdie.com. That's S-H-E-S-B-I-R-D-I-E dot com. And order your Birdie Box before your next stay away from home. Hello, I'm Sean Lay. Thanks for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast from Friday 7th August. Joining forces Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan agree a security pact.

1:12How much clout will that give them over the future of the Middle East? The UK has its first cabinet minister for AI, but a new boss means the Artificial Intelligence Technology Division of Google will no longer be led from London. The boss will be in California instead, should the industry here be worried. William Orbit, whose collaboration with Madonna in the late 1980s won Grammys, has died at 69, will examine the impact he made on the soundtrack of a generation. And the politicians who award licences for pubs and bars in London's famously hospitable West End want to encourage more drinking sitting down rather than standing up.

1:50How's that going down on a summer's evening with the drinkers in Soho? Join me as I find out. As the old song goes, when other friendships are soon forgot, ours will still be hot. I like Erdogan, I'll tell you, I like President Erdogan. He rolled out the red carpet, he's terrific. Minister Sharif, I like this man of Pakistan. I want to thank my friend, the Crown Prince Mohammed, who is a fantastic man and a great friend of mine. There are three Muslim-majority countries whose leaders have been among Washington's most dependable allies. Donald Trump frequently singles them out as personal friends.

2:32But today, in the teeth of the gravest security crisis facing the Middle East in decades, the US-Iran war, those three powers signed a new security pact of their own. In Mecca, Saudi Arabia, the holiest city in Islam, accompanied by prayers, all three leaders are adherents of the Sunni branch of Islam. All three countries, I should say, are adherents of the Sunni branch of Islam, which Iran is not. So is this a result of the US-Iran war, of Iran spreading the conflict to other countries in the region, or of America being a less reliable partner than it was in the past? Ilhanur Chivik spent eight years as an advisor to Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

3:10I asked him what Turkey gets out of the agreement. What Turkey gets out of it is Turkey has been saying for a long time that regional problems should be solved by regional countries rather than outside interference like from the United States or from the EU or from any other source. So this falls into that principle. And Turkey wants the fact that we have this very volatile situation in our region. It wants to take regional countries to take the matters into their own hands and write their own destiny instead of people imposing it on us. So what Turkey gets out of it is more influence in the region, greater posture in the region, and to bring peace in the region.

3:59Because Turkey's motto has always been peace in the world, peace at home, peace in the world. So it's that kind of thing. Turkey does not want this to be a threat to anyone in the region, especially Iran. But seeing that Iran has all these designs over the area, Turkey wants to check Iran's designs as well. And as you see, the union of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Turkey is a Sunni union. So, I mean, you bring out a kind of Sunni front as well. Right. Countering the Shia front. Right, because these are three quite different countries in lots of ways. President Erdogan, your former boss, is a very dominant, the dominant political figure in Turkey.

4:53Turkey is a multi-party democracy. The Saudi Arabian system is a monarchical system. The Pakistan system is basically a military one. Now, you're three very different countries, but you seem to have coalesced around this sense that Iran is a threat to you and to the region. Is that really what's driving this? Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, Turkey has never always openly said Iran is a threat to us. Iran is our rivals for nearly 1 ,000 years. but yes, Turkey does feel that there is an Iranian threat in the region and that it should counter this with this kind of union among friends. What do you think the Americans make of this?

5:44Between you and me, I think this could not have been done without the blessing of Washington. So I think the Americans are involved in some way or another. Do you know that for a fact? Well, they say half effect. I understand. That's a diplomatic answer and I won't push you on details, just as you wouldn't push a journalist on sources. But I think we understand what you're saying. I think it has the blessing. And I think between you and me, the UK has also given its blessing to this kind of union between the three countries. Soterios Johnson Ankara, Islamabad and Riyadh have always thought that they could pick up the phone, call Washington DC and they would get the response they needed.

6:31I just wonder if this in part reflects a sense in the Middle East that the US is no longer the reliable ally it once was. No, I think this is exactly what the United States wants. It wants people to handle their own security problems. It wants regions to handle their own security problems with the help of the United States. That's Ilhanur Çivik, who is a former advisor to Turkey's President Erdogan. Well, in a distinguished diplomatic career, Sir William Patey not only ran the Middle East desk at the Foreign Office, He also served as UK ambassador to Afghanistan, to Saudi Arabia, to Iraq and Sudan.

7:11And he joins us now. So William, thanks for being with us on The World Tonight. I wonder what you make of that assessment for Mr Chivik. Do you share his view that this isn't in any way a diminution of Washington's authority in the region? I don't quite accept his analysis on that. I think part of the evolution of these regional powers is a function of the United States playing a different role. Saudi Arabia relied on a very strong security alliance with the United States for decades. And that alliance and the American commitment to the Middle East began to look a bit less firm well before Donald Trump.

7:58It began with Obama. Trump won Biden. So America's commitment, they began to hedge their bets. And we saw even before the war against Iran that Saudi Arabia, countries like Turkey and Egypt were playing more of a regional role, taking more responsibility for their own defense. So this is a continuation of that adjustment, if you like, to what we had before, which was Pax Americana in the Middle East and that we no longer have Pax Americana. It doesn't mean to say the US is withdrawn completely or that Saudi Arabia still doesn't value its alliance to the United States. It's just they're hedging their bets a bit more.

8:43When we recorded that interview a little earlier with Mr. Chivik, I pushed him a little on the kind of focus on Iran. You know, three Sunni countries, Iran obviously a Shia country, and whether there was a sense that Iran had become more of a threat in the region. Do you think that is a factor in this? Oh, undoubtedly. I think Saudi Arabia's only real enemy in the region is Iran. I don't think they even regard Israel as an enemy. They regard Israel as a destabilizing power in the region. But the Saudis had a longstanding defense agreements with Pakistan. I mean, they signed a bilateral agreement last year.

9:24Even before that, the Saudis have had strong links with Pakistan. Turkey's the new factor. Turkey is increasingly playing a much bigger role in the region in the light of what I call American hesitation or American missteps. So, I mean, we've had this evolution of the Sunni powers, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. And I believe that Egypt at one stage was involved in some of the talks, but they've not signed up to the formal defense pact. So those four Sunni powers have been increasingly coordinating at a time when another big player in the region, the UAE, has been doubling down on its relationship with the United States and with Israel.

10:12But the enemy here is Iran. I don't think Saudi Arabia feels a threat from anybody else. Just a last thought. Should we regard this as a measure to improve stability in the Middle East? Or does it have the risk of destabilizing? Does it carry the risk of destabilizing it further? Well, it can go either way. I think it sends a message to Iran that, you know, they can't just pick off countries like Saudi Arabia and who has friends. Saudi Arabia now has more friends. So it's acting as a deterrent to Iran, whether it will work or not is another matter. But that's what it's intended to do. And I think various commentaries have been made about this is not NATO, this is not an attack on one automatically leads to others getting involved.

11:07But it will involve closer defence cooperation. Turkey will hope to gain quite a bit. It's got a very vibrant arms industry and we'll hope to do well in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. Sir William Patey, former UK ambassador in the Middle East. Thank you very much. Coming up on The World Tonight in the next 25 minutes or so, the acclaimed British music producer William Orbit has died at the age of 69. We'll be looking back at his influence. With pure shores, with all saints. He talks about it as being something that he thought was terrible at the time. and he told me that it was only much later when he was in his local shop doing his food shopping and Pure Shores would come on over the stereo that he thought, oh, actually, I did a good job with that.

12:01Do stay with us for more of the music and more of the man. Sir Demis Hassabis may be the computer scientist who more than anyone has helped to make the UK a country where talent in developing artificial intelligence is to be found. It's the reason Google, which bought his company DeepMind in 2014, has based much of its AI business here. It's also a key part of the government's plan to boost AI in the UK. Now the Financial Times has revealed, Sir Demis is stepping back from day-to-day management of Google DeepMind to focus on longer-term research and his successor will be based not in London, but in California.

12:38Madhumita Magia is AI editor at the Financial Times. She broke the story. Demis Hassabis was the CEO and founder of DeepMind, which was one of the first AI labs that kicked off the entire wave of technological revolution that we've really seen over the last decade. He is British from North London. He was a chess genius as a child. And he's basically had multiple careers in his 50 years. He's just turned 50. He invented video games like Theme Park and founded a video game company and then went on to take a PhD in neuroscience and then found a lab in AI. So he's really a polymath and is seen as one of the leading thinkers and scientists who has contributed to the foundation of AI.

13:23He's a patriot. He has chosen to stay in the UK and build out this entire institution here where he won a Nobel Prize as well. Even though his company was sold to Google, he's continued to sort of keep the centre of gravity here all these years. And does that mean he's kind of attracted talent to the UK as a result of his presence? That's certainly true. Even though the company was sold to Google in 2014, because he was here, it really drew the best to come and to develop all sorts of amazing things, including the Nobel Prize winning AlphaFold project. Now, this is a management change, isn't it?

14:03Effectively means that the person will be in charge day to day, will be sitting behind a desk, sitting in a cafe, someone with a laptop, who knows? But they'll be in California, not in London. That though doesn't necessarily mean, does it, that the people who are based in London will automatically move to California or the work will shift to California? No, it doesn't automatically mean that, but it is a significant shift because Demis was very much seen as a leader in this space. And obviously where the CEO sits is where the center of power tends to be for any company, right? And so although DeepMind had become the sort of engine room of Google's AI operations, he led it out of London.

14:46Now, he has taken a step back from day-to-day responsibilities. He's handed over to his former lieutenant, Coray Kabukoglu, and Coray sits in Mountain View, California. So the center of gravity has shifted. And I think there is a sense amongst employees, particularly the sort of original old school deep mind researchers who've been based in London many years, concern about what will happen in terms of the research priorities and whether it will become a more commercial outfit or not. Do you think this is driven by Google? Demis is widely accepted as one of the most notable and respected AI scientists in the world.

15:28So I would think that he had a pretty big part to play. This is something that he had wanted as well. The day-to-day responsibilities of DeepMind had changed in recent years. They're very much now a part of Google in terms of building the Gemini product. and it's been clear always that Demis' drive is really to apply AI to science and to big problems in medicine, you know, in healthcare. He's got a second company, Isomorphic, which is really focused on developing drugs and so this isn't something Demis would have been pushed into. He clearly wants this and this frees up his time for him to think bigger and do the research that he's always been driven by.

16:09That's the FT's AI editor, Madhumita Merjia. Well, Andy Burnham's top team includes the first minister for AI of cabinet rank, Anishka Narayan. Is this the sort of development he needs to take a view on? Joining us is Professor Sana Karagani, who's chief strategy officer at the IRA4, a company focusing on AI infrastructure. She's also the former head of the government office for artificial intelligence. Professor, thank you very much for being with us on the world tonight. How big a deal do you think Sadebis' decision is? Thank you very much for having me on. It's a big deal. I think this is, you know, Demis has always been, you know, and DeepMind as well has been a cornerstone here in the UK's AI scene.

16:56And, you know, as we heard just a second ago, the work that DeepMind did on AlphaGo really kind of set hairs running and in some ways instigated a lot of the work that's now, you know, manifested into kind of all of the hype and everything that's being poured into AI, right? So he really started off this, you know, bringing AI into society, into kind of pop culture. Right. Do you think there's a risk that if Google DeepMind is no longer in a sense being exec from London and is being exec from California, from Silicon Valley, where so much of the industry already operates, that that could have an impact on the talent base here?

17:49Well, I mean, I think if we kind of look at the kinds of things that Demas has always said, right? He said that the UK's ability to attract talent, the talent that's grown here because of the top universities that exist here in the UK, the fact that we have this melting pot of, you know, close proximity of the financial district to politics, to kind of society that creates. this amazing ability to run and do research. None of that goes away, right? And I think the fact that, and then added to that is another thing he said, which is we now have access to capital here in the UK. I was going to ask you that.

18:42Is there enough money in the UK to kind of capitalise and commercialise the research that's been going on? Well, yes, I think much more so than in 2014 when Demas sold deep-minded to Google, right? So those ingredients are still here. And now we have this added capital here as well. And we've already seen kind of, you know, ex-deep-mind Googlers setting up shops for themselves at RSI, Ineffable, Cusp. And for the new cabinet minister for AI, Kanishka Narayan, is there a job of work to do? Is there a sense in which there's a need to kind of shore up and reassure people that the kind of disappearance of this major figure in the development of UK's AI industry should not have an impact on the industry itself and on its future in this country.

19:33I think this is about doubling down on the things that we've been doing and continue to do, right? And we've been doing them right and Demis has been behind it. And I don't think he's leaving, you know, and I think the fact that he wants to concentrate on using AI to solve disease and he's going to continue to do that from here in the UK, I think it speaks a lot about this ecosystem and its strength. And that's all we have to do is keep doubling down on that. Professor Sana Karaghani, Chief Strategy Officer, IARA 4 and former Head of the Government Office for Artificial Intelligence, thanks very much for talking to us.

20:12To London's West End now, an area long known for its hospitality and in particular the hostelries which supply it. Now the local authority which licenses bars and pubs there, the borough of Westminster, is consulting on incentives to ensure that more people do their drinking sitting down. What the consultation calls vertical drinking, standing up to you and me, is something they'd like to see a little less of. Now in Soho on summer's evening you'll see a lot of it and it's only a 15-minute walk from the studio, so I've been to find out more. My name's Catherine Gray and I'm the local democracy reporter who covers Westminster City Council.

20:47So Catherine, we've chosen an interesting location because we are in the heart of Soho. We're outside the John Snow pub named after the doctor who discovered that a pump just in this street by us, what used to be called Broad Street, was giving people cholera. It's funny they didn't pub after him, though, because apparently he was teetotal, but at least he made everybody healthier. Tell us about this plan that Westminster has to maybe make the drinking experience here in Westminster a bit healthier. Yeah, so there's a lot of talk online about a ban on vertical drinking. I'm going to stop you immediately.

21:19Tell me what you mean by vertical drinking. So vertical drinking is pretty much what it says on the tin. It is standing up and having a drink. Essentially like a pub or a bar where most of the customers are stood up rather than sat down. Right. So clustered around the bar trying to get served or just drinking and talking to their mates. So what is it Westminster Council is kind of worried about and happy about? What is it wants to change? So from my understanding they are encouraging businesses to take a more seated approach. That doesn't mean everybody needs to sit down and you know all the pubs that already exist in Soho are going to be made to have their customers sit down.

21:52It means that when they're hearing new applications or variations, if say a new venue wants to open, they might look more favourably on one where there's more seats than there is mostly standing. Right. But this is going out to a consultation at the moment, so it's not yet certain to happen. No, it's not. And people have a lot of opinions on it. So they should definitely respond to the consultation if they live in the area. It's an intriguing thought, though, because it's something that applies all over the country, doesn't it? You can think particularly in cities and towns and even arguably in a much older tradition of people standing up in pubs, presumably in a lot of pubs, there wasn't furniture because you didn't really want your customers to have furniture.

22:34because they might do things like start fights with it. Yeah, exactly. And that's what's really got people riled up, is that obviously standing up in a pub is quite a big part of English drinking culture. So there is definitely a debate to be had about whether or not this approach is right, but I don't think anybody thinks there's going to be a blanket ban on standing up in pubs any time soon. Right, and that would probably be quite a lot of relief to the drinkers around here on such a lovely summer's day. Catherine, thank you very much. Thanks. So that's Catherine Gray. explains to me what Westminster Council is doing.

23:05Now, it just so happens, if I go round the corner at the John Snow, there are actually seats outside. So before I go and find some drinkers standing up, let's talk to some drinkers sitting down. Do you prefer to sit down or stand up when you're drinking? This way, though, yeah, we definitely prefer to be standing rather than sitting down. I'm quite happy to sit down. I've been walking all day. There's talk of trying to encourage venues to provide more seating. What do you think of that? Sometimes when you're all packed in, standing all together, it's a bit like sardines, it's a bit annoying. I used to work around here and it was kind of, part of the thing was coming out after work and getting a drink and there would always be lots of people, especially like now, late Friday afternoon.

23:45You know, it was just part of where we are now in Soho. I think it would definitely lose something of the atmosphere of this part of town. We're in the heart of what Westminster Council calls the cumulative impact zone, which is jargon for basically saying, and this has been its policy for a long time that no new licences should add to the cumulative impact on the local community and one way of showing if you're applying for a licence that you won't do that is to have more seating. I don't think I've ever sat down having a beer so yeah, I probably want to stay standing, more social. Standing up or sitting down?

24:20It's standing up, 100 % yeah. You think the beer goes down better? The beer goes down a bit better, also your bum hurts for a while when you just keep seeing. Crowding around the bar, all that problem of getting seen by the barman or barwoman so you can order a drink. It'd be easier if you're sitting down, wouldn't it? No, it's part of the great British culture. That's what they say, fighting at the bar. Mad. Surely that just means you've got like 30 % less capacity in the bar. But also, can you imagine if a big football game's done and everyone's just sat at a table? That is absolutely ridiculous.

24:51I think you need a drink. Yeah, I do, yeah, you're right. And my thanks to the drinkers of Soho for being so hospitable to me. You are listening to The World tonight. It is just approaching 29 minutes to 11. That's assuming you're listening to us live, of course. If you're not, I've no idea what the time is, but I can give you the latest headlines. Police and prosecutors have admitted to failings that left a known sex offender free to murder two women and rape a third in London. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have signed an agreement committing all three countries to defend each other if attacked.

25:24And Spain says it's going to impose temporary border checks from midnight tomorrow on people travelling from Italy as the migration row between the two countries intensifies. Now to a story that's been developing this evening here in the UK. Counter-terrorism police investigating the death of the former Conservative MP Anne Whittacombe have reopened an investigation into an attempted burglary at a London address last year. The BBC's Laura Trant is with me in the World Tonight studio. Laura, what can you tell us? Well, this relates to April last year when the Metropolitan Police received a report of an attempted burglary in the Greater London area.

25:58In a statement from Counterterrorism Policing, it's explained that inquiries were made by the Metropolitan Police in Counterterrorism Policing in London. No arrests were made and the investigation was subsequently closed pending any new lines of inquiry. Well, a new line of inquiry has been identified, which in their statement they say may be relevant. Counter-terrorism policing will now also be engaging with the Independent Office for Police Conduct on this matter. As we know, Anne Widdecombe, the former Conservative minister and Reform UK spokesperson, was found dead at her home in Dartmoor with serious head injuries.

26:36She'd been hit on the head 21 times with a hammer. Joshua Kerry, a 28-year-old man from South Yorkshire, has been charged with her murder following an investigation led by counter-terrorism detectives. A provisional trial date has been set for June next year. Laura Tran, thank you very much. Jason Arday has called his memoir Great and Unfortunate Things, a title which now seems painfully apposite. He resigned his academic post at the University of Cambridge on Wednesday after a protracted dispute over allegations of plagiarism in his work, which he's denied, and of inconsistencies in his CV. When he was appointed three years ago, he was at 38 the youngest black professor Cambridge had ever given a job to.

27:20The university has announced reviews the way it vets and hires senior academic staff in the wake of the scandal. However, Arde's book publisher, Simon & Schuster, has stood by him, and as things stand, great and unfortunate things will be published in the United States on Monday. Let's talk now to Daniel Enger, who's senior editor at the Atlantic magazine, which has been covering the story, and he's seen an original copy of Arde's book proposal. I suppose the question that people will be asking, Daniel, is whether this week's events, and the allegations that have swirled for some time now will have an impact on how this book is received?