Zelensky sacks Ukraine's top army commander after protests

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1:29Hello, I'm James Kimara-Sami. Thank you for downloading the BBC's World Tonight podcast for Tuesday, July the 21st. President Zelensky has fired the head of Ukraine's armed forces. We're in Kiev with the military and political significance of that decision. Andy Burnham has held his first cabinet meeting. We assess how his first full day as prime minister went. and look at one of the issues he's promised to prioritise in number 10, reform of social care. France becomes the first EU country to ban social media for the under-15s. What is driving the cockroach youth protest movement in India? And with around 23 million of us under hosepipe bans, we have a gardener's guide to navigating one.

2:10And we begin tonight in Kiev, where in the past hour or so, President Zelensky has fired Ukraine's top general, Oleksandr Siersky. It follows days of mass protests, which followed Mr Zelensky's decision to replace the popular young and tech-savvy Defence Minister, Mikhailo Fedorov, who took a rather different view to General Siersky about battlefield priorities. Well, we can speak now to Katie Livingstone, Ukraine correspondent for Defence News and Military Times. Good evening, Katie. How significant is this development? Hello. This is a big deal. Ukraine, Kiev Zelenskyy has not changed their commander-in-chief often.

2:49The last switch was almost two years ago, General Zelushny. And this, of course, came rather abruptly. It's been less than a week of protests, actually. And, you know, as Zelenskyy himself admitted, he had dismissed Minister Fedorov because of difficulty between the two working together, Fedorov and Sierskyy. So within less than a week, he totally went 180 and dismissed a very high official in the government. So it's a victory for Mr. Fedorov, who, as I mentioned, is young, popular, and the person credited with the drone strategy against targets inside Russia that has proved pretty successful in recent weeks and months.

3:32Well, it seems like Fedorov thinks so. You know, I can quote him in a message he posted less than an hour ago as well. He says, this is a new era and a new hope in the fight of free people for freedom and justice. And he goes on a bit. So he seems quite happy or at least content, let's say, satisfied with the dismissal of Sierski and the appointment of Jarpyati. And those protests who've been out on the streets, they are satisfied as well, presumably. Well, we shall see. This announcement came out, you know, shortly before midnight, which is curfew of course in Kyiv and in many other cities. So protests were over at that point.

4:10Minister Fedorov still has not been reappointed. He has not been officially given any new position in the government. So I think we'll see what happens until Fedorov himself is given a new role. Where does this leave President Zelensky? Does it make him look weak? How would you characterize it? Yeah, I think, you know, there's always the same political gamble here. But if we look at Zelensky's actions over the last four and a half years, he has given in a couple times when people took to the streets, for example, really, really pushed back. and that calmed people's nerves, let's say, and, you know, at least reinstalled their faith enough that no one was calling for Zelensky himself to be ousted.

4:53So I think people right now, you know, they're not going to forget what led to this crisis, but they certainly, I think, respect, appreciate and note, let's say, Zelensky's actions now. What though of the military? How are they viewing this? Right. You know, a tricky question because, you know, you're not really supposed to speak out when you're currently serving, but a lot of people have, and a lot of soldiers were attending these protests as well. So a lot of people are happy about that. Well, I think we'll learn more tomorrow, right? It is late to really get official commentary on this. But for the people who've been most vocal, let's say those are the ones who are least happy with the situation with Fedorov, they seem to be happy.

5:35Katie, many thanks. Katie Livingstone, Ukraine correspondent for Defence News and Military Times. It is late, but we can now speak to Alexander Mareshko, who's chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Ukrainian Parliament. Good evening, Mr. Mareshko. Good evening, thank you for having me. Well, thank you for returning. And we spoke to you on the programme last week, and you were calling for the minister, Mr. Fedorov, to be reinstated. Now, we haven't heard whether that is happening yet, but we do know that General Sirsky has gone. what's your reaction to that? Well it's definitely a victory for Mr Fedorov and it raises well the thing is that there were two crucial demands of the people who took to the streets first of all to reinstate Mr Fedorov and second demand was to remove General Sirsky so we have the dismissal of General Sirsky instead of him seems to be appointed a rather popular General Drapati who is widely respected in Ukraine and by the military.

6:39But the key issue remains the same, whether or not Mr. Fedorov will be reinstated. Because the president has offered to Mr. Fedorov a kind of alternative option to become a sort of coordinator or it's hard dealing with military technologies. But it seems like Mr. Fedorov is reluctant to accept this offer. What does this do to Mr. Zelensky's authority? It doesn't sound as though he's someone completely in control of events. He continues to be in control. Well, I think it tells us that he's a democratic leader and he's eager to listen to people who take to the streets and who express their opinion.

7:25Yes, I mean, one man's democratic leader is another man's getting buffeted by events and someone who will U-turn once there is this level of public discontent on the streets? Well, the thing is that, well, we don't have elections and people have the right to express their opinion to take to the streets. And I think that, well, this decision was expected and not expected. We expected it to happen a little bit later. but it remains to be seen with regard to Mr Fedorov. I think the president will take the right decision. What does this do to national unity in Ukraine? I mean, Ukraine is a democracy and the street protests when there are no elections able to be held because the state of emergency I guess are a sign of that but a country that has benefited from national unity is that in danger of fracturing?

8:28I would say so. Yes, you're absolutely right. For us, national unity remains our top priority and extremely important value during the war because our enemy, they want us to be divisive and we need to retain national unity. So this decision by the president is definitely in favor of supporting national unity. But you say there are two sides to this. You've called for Mr. Fedorov to come back. Is that, and if that doesn't happen, where does this go? I hope that it will happen because a lot depends on the decision of Mr. Fedorov. He was offered an alternative option. It seems like he's continuing to think about this and we have to wait and see what decision he will take.

9:20Alexander Marevko, chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee for the Ukrainian Parliament. Thanks very much indeed. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

9:57Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

10:02Well, let's turn to events back home because on his first full day as captain, Andy Burnham was at pains to stress that he would be running a tight ship in front of the cameras at the first meeting of his new cabinet. The new Prime Minister, who was promised to preside over a cost of living government, delivered a sober message of fiscal discipline. We've got to show fiscal discipline. We've got to show that our commitment to the fiscal rules is real and we're prepared to make difficult decisions in relation to that. Well, his government did announce a modest giveaway to the public, VAT to be cut from electricity bills from October and said it would be paid for by scrapping plans for a digital ID programme.

10:44Neat and tidy and prudent that would have been if it hadn't been for the sacked Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister, Darren Jones, saying the scrapped programme was unfunded, tweeting into the tent in an unhelpful way. Also stirring the pot, rather more predictably, was the Kremlin, although they have, as you might expect, denied doing so. The new Defence Secretary, Wes Streeting, delivered this message today after a Russian warship had marked Mr Burnham's arrival in Downing Street with a live firing exercise 40 nautical miles south of Plymouth. We should see yesterday's events as performative and irresponsible.

11:21Russia should be in no doubt about the resolve of this government and this Prime Minister. Well, with me in the studio, Newsnight's political editor, Nick Watt. Nick, that's a little pricey of the day, but this evening, interesting news about a new minister. Yes, we believe it hasn't been announced, and it may not be announced until tomorrow, that Anasawa, who is the Scottish Labour leader, will be appointed as a minister tomorrow, we believe, not confirmed, possibly trade minister. Now, you can see why Keir Starmer would want to do that. Anasawa... Andy Burnham, I think you mean. Did I say Keir Starmer?

11:58Wake up, Nicholas. You can see why Andy Burnham wanted to do that. Anasawa, obviously, it was a difficult result for Scottish Labour in the Hollywood elections. He will be thinking of his future. He's a tremendous communicator, communicator and you'd probably want him all over the airwaves. So you can absolutely see why Andy Burnham would want to do that. The challenge for Andy Burnham is that Anna Sawe back in February became the first senior Labour figure to call for Keir Starmer to go. And that triggered quite a serious crisis. You'll remember all those tweets from members of the cabinet saying that Keir Starmer should stay.

12:30And the challenge for Andy Burnham is that when he appointed his cabinet it yesterday. Nine Starmerites, supporters of Keir Starmer, lost their jobs. I mean, Rachel Reeves was offered another job, so you can't really say she was sacked, but some were sacked. And Andy Burnham's big pledge is he's going to end factionalism, he's going to run a unity government, and removing nine supporters of Keir Starmer, appointing the person who called for Keir Starmer to go way back in February, may raise questions about whether Andy Burnham is leading a non-factional government. Yes, and one of those nine, as I mentioned, an unhelpful intervention.

13:07Well, you mentioned Darren Jones, didn't you, the former chief secretary to the prime minister. So he tweeted when he left the cabinet, a picture of himself with a pint of beer saying, off for the summer, see you again the other side. And then it didn't take long this morning for Darren Jones to be tweeting, as you were saying, unease about this announcement of taking VAT off domestic energy bills from February and the government saying that they would fund it from the scrapping of the digital ID scheme to which Darren Jones said that funding for that hadn't been arranged. Do you think we can expect more noises off like that in the coming days or a little sort of warning shot?

13:48It wouldn't surprise me. I had some pretty strong remarks from one Starmerite on Newsnight last night. So there is, I think, a feeling of unease that Andy Burnham is not living up to his commitments to behave in a non-factional way. There are a number of supporters of Keir Starmer who feel upset and who feel bruised. And yeah, we might get noises off. Nick, thanks for the noises on, as ever. Nick Watt, Newsnight's political editor. Well, let's turn to one of the issues that Andy Burnham has said he will make a priority, and that is social care. It's a policy area that he speaks from out of personal experience because his father has Alzheimer's disease.

14:29In a moment, we'll speak to someone who has discussed that issue with Mr Burnham and did so when he was mayor of Greater Manchester. But first, we're going to hear from Sir Andrew Dilnot, the economist who set out plans for reforming the social care sector in England 15 years ago. He chaired the commission looking into how to deliver a fair, affordable and sustainably funded social care system and he established the principle of a cap on social care costs for individuals. Now the introduction of that cap was delayed repeatedly. The former Chancellor Rachel Reeves postponed it indefinitely. Earlier today I spoke to Sir Andrew, asked him whether he thought Andy Burnham might be the Prime Minister to finally see social care reforms into law.

15:10Andy Burnham needs to be both Prime Minister and committed to social care and stay in power long enough to actually get something done. I think once something is done, it will be very hard to unwind it, but getting beyond that starting line is critical, and that probably takes two or three years. And what of that something? He has said that he wants social care to operate on the NHS principle, that it should be free at the point of use. That is the most expensive of all the options, isn't it? How feasible is that, getting that through, do you think? So I think it's economically feasible, but it would mean either some big cuts in public spending elsewhere or some significant tax increases or, I suppose, increased borrowing.

15:51All of those look quite challenging. I think what is feasible is for the Prime Minister and the government to say that's where they want to get to in the long run, and then they could easily use the legislation that has been passed twice in the last 10 years but never implemented that was going to put in place a cap on the overall amount that people could pay over their lifetimes, what Andy Burnham would probably like in the long run is that cap to be zero. But in the shorter run, for much less expenditure, and therefore I think politically probably more likely, he could get that in place. If government could at least put a cap in place on the overall liability that people face, that would take away a large part of the terror that comes with social care needs at the moment.

16:34getting in place would be the thing I'd like to see most. Well, actually, that's one of the things I'd like to see most. There's another thing that we desperately need to see and need to see urgently, and that's that the current means-tested system that does provide support to those who don't have enough resources has been chronically underfunded for the last 10 years. Every year for the last 10 years, very nearly, the Treasury has announced emergency funding for that. Well, that's not a very mature or grown-up system. We should have at least a decent settlement over a number of years so the local authorities can spend the money sensibly.

17:05Society needs to buy into this though doesn't it as a whole? It does and I think certainly politicians have not done a great job of helping us through all of this but I think we all have to take some responsibility for reasons that are still a bit obscure to me. We often behave as though social care isn't a problem that's going to happen to us. Well we're wrong, 80 % of us are going to need social care in our old age. It's definitely coming to face us. And there are easy ways of addressing it, doing it all together, leaving it as though we're ignoring it and we're going to deal with it if we face it on our own.

17:39It's madness where we wouldn't pull the risk with somebody. We're almost in denial about social care. I think we find it frightening. And that's meant that we, along with the politicians, have not faced up to it. It will have a cost, not a massive cost, but something that can transform all my lives. And doing this within the current fiscal rules, which the government, the new Chancellor, John Healy, has said that is an absolute priority. How tricky is that going to be? I mean, are we looking at potential new types of taxes, for example, so that the taxes that the government pledged in the manifesto it wouldn't raise, it would not have to break that manifesto?

18:20What are your thoughts on how this is funded? So I think if we would see anything like an NHS style solution for the whole of social care, we would be looking at significant increases in spending of the order of between 20 and 30 billion pounds a year if we were also funding the means tested system properly. Now, that's a lot of money. It's not a huge sum compared to the more than a thousand billion pounds a year of total public spending, but it's enough that it has a real consequence for the fiscal rules. I think it would mean that there had to be some new funding. I'd be surprised if that's the short-run object of the government.

18:54I could be wrong. And if it is the short-run object, there would have to be in the short run some further tax increases. And that could be a new tax, like the health and social care levy that Boris Johnson's government proposed and began to implement and then was unwound by Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. Or it could be increases in existing taxes, value-added tax or income tax or national insurance contributions. Manifesto breaking tax rises in other words They would certainly be manifesto breaking if they were to take place during this parliament but I think one of the things about social care reform is that genuine reform will take a couple of years to get implemented and so the reform side of what we're looking at here could quite possibly only start to have significant expenditure after the next election Is this the moment when he can deal with the politics of it three years out from an election potentially?

19:44Now is a much easier time to deal with the politics of this than two and a half or three years from now when we're coming up to an election. So I think that Mr Burnham and his team should spend some time over the next couple of months working out exactly what they want to do, talking with Louise Casey, talking with other parties, talking with stakeholders, and then I'd hope later on this year come up with some clear proposals about exactly what they're going to do and how the funding for that will work in the short run and the medium and long run. And let's see if we can get some consensus. Sir Andrew Dilnot of course when Andy Burnham was Health Secretary back in 2009 he did try to get a consensus with the other political parties on this issue on Friday on the programme we heard from his Conservative and Lib Dem counterparts at that time Andrew Lansley and Norman Lamb someone else he has spoken to about this is Louise Lynch who's the host and producer of Do I Sound Like I Care, it's a podcast for unpaid family carers and they spoke on her podcast two years ago when Andy Burnham was mayor of Greater Manchester.

20:46She asked him about his experience becoming a carer for his father who has dementia. Here's an extract of that conversation. I can remember now the first time my dad said something to me and I remember the shock of it, you know, realising that something was really changing within, you know, in him and it was, yeah, that is a bit of a trauma, isn't it? And Louise joins us on the line now. Good evening, Louise. Hello, James. You had that in-depth conversation with Andy Burnham about his experience of being a carer. Do you think his experience means that he is the Prime Minister who will take on a challenge that successive Prime Ministers have spoken about but have ultimately dealt?

21:30I think so. From our conversation that we had on the podcast, He definitely understands firsthand what it's like to care for somebody with dementia in the case of his family. And also in the case of mine, we sat down as two carers with something in common and had a very, very normal conversation about all the inefficiencies and the problems in the social care system. The difference is that he's actually now in a position to do something about it, which is wonderful. What do you think he has to prioritise? Well, there's so much. From my personal point of view, as an unpaid family carer and representing unpaid family carers through the podcast, I would say they need to be at the heart of any change.

22:16At the moment, we are essential picking up the pieces of all the broken fragments of the current social care system. But that is treated as a free resource. And we are all at breaking point. So much carer burnout. We need better support and we need more rights and we need respite and so many things. Also, we rely on the professional carers to come and support us. The whole 15 minute care visit system in the domiciliary setting is really inefficient and is very does not serve the needs of the person that needs the care and family members that rely on that support. and also the financial unfairness of it all.

23:01I think particularly when you have a condition like dementia that is something that is means tested for social care and usually it involves basically wiping out an individual or a family's savings and whittling it down to£23 ,000 in England and slightly more in Scotland, then basically it's not a sustainable system. No, look, someone like you, for Andy Burnham, for anyone who's had direct experience of these issues, you know, there's not a question of their priority. But Andrew Dillnot makes the point that there are still large parts of society that sort of do need convincing why this is such a priority.

23:44How do you think he should go about doing that? Well, I presume that part of society probably hasn't ever had care experience or lived experience of care. once you have done that once you have gone through that as Andy Burnham has you suddenly realize that at some point you're either going to need care or you're going to be giving care or possibly both and that personal experience really helps also I think it's just a kind of collective need at the moment it's just incredibly unfair and I think perhaps the idea of sharing out that cost and sharing out those responsibilities would make it more effective.

24:23And what are the politics of it briefly? When he tried to get that consensus in the late 2000s, he was accused, the Labour government was accused of drawing up a plan for what were called death taxes. How do you think that's going to affect how he approaches the politics of it this time? Well, he spoke about that on the podcast and you could see that he was really hurt by it. And I think it affected his position within the party. And also, I think he's now learnt how to approach it this time. He talked, he used the term a modest contribution. So he said his plan, I don't know whether this is still his plan.

25:01The podcast interview is two years old, but his plan at that point was a modest contribution after death. whether that comes in the form of some kind of inheritance tax change or another intervention. I'm not too sure. But he's got some ideas and I think he needs to get more buy-in this time round and he's learnt from that mistake. He had his fingers burnt last time. Louise, many thanks for joining us. Louise Lynch, host and producer of Do I Sound Like I Care, a podcast for unpaid family carers. Quick reminder, if you want to listen back to any of this programme or to previous ones, you can go to BBC Sounds where you can also download the podcast.

25:39The top stories this evening, President Zelensky has sacked the head of Ukraine's armed forces, General Oleksandr Siersky. Andy Burnham has told the first meeting of his new cabinet they need to lead a cost-of-living government. France has become the first EU country to ban social media for the under-15s. Hugh Schofield is a BBC's Paris correspondent. It'll be in two stages. The ban will come into effect on September 1st for new social media accounts. So if you're on September the 1st or 2nd wanting to open a social media account, you will then be asked to provide age verification. All existing accounts are given a grace period of four months, during which time the platforms themselves will have to have put in place that check.

26:28So the onus is entirely on the platforms, you know, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, wherever, to institute these checks. Hugh Schofield in Paris now to a ban of a different kind because Thames Water has become the latest water company to announce a hosepipe ban. It's 10 million or so customers across London and the Thames Valley will join the 13 million other households across England and Wales where restrictions are already or about to be put in place following the driest spring on record and a trio, so far at least, of summer heatwaves. For a gardener's eye view of the hosepipe bans, we turn to Bunny Guinness, regular panellist on Gardner's Questions.