Zelensky's removal of popular defence minister sparks protests in Ukraine

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2:07Thanks for downloading the World Tonight podcast for Thursday the 16th of July. I'm Jane Hill. There have been protests all day in cities across Ukraine after President Zelensky removed the young, successful defence minister from his job. A member of Mr Zelensky's own party tells us why he thinks that decision should be reversed. In the next few hours, Donald Trump will make a primetime televised address to the US. We'll be live in Washington and hear about some of the great presidential addresses of the past. And the enthusiasm for films shot on film. 70mm is Christopher Nolan's preferred way of working and his adaptation of The Odyssey is selling out cinemas.

2:51We've been finding out why this old technology is such a hit. As Sir Keir Starmer completed his final foreign trip as Prime Minister to meet Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv, the President of Ukraine had other things on his mind, removing the Defence Chief from his job, even though the country is considered to have made military advances since his appointment in January. Mikhail Fodorov is 35 and was the youngest ever person in that role. In his six months in post, he launched reforms of the army, including boosting soldiers' pay. And he persuaded Elon Musk to cut off illicit access to Starlink satellite systems for Russian soldiers.

3:31But today he was dismissed, or more precisely, wasn't re-nominated to the new government. At a press conference alongside Sakhir Starmer, President Zelensky acknowledged there had been almost unmanageable tensions between Mr Fedorov and the country's commander-in-chief, Olegzander Sierski. Protests broke out in many cities today and have continued into this evening. These protesters were chanting Sierski out.

4:03Mr Fedorov himself spoke about the protesters, saying they weren't out on the streets for him personally.

4:13Ukrainians took to the streets because when Ukraine had seized the initiative on the battlefield and in the skies, that trajectory was broken. Ukrainians can sense when decisions are no longer being made based on the values this country stands for. Well, Oleksandr Maresko is an MP from President Zelensky's party, the servant of the people. He also chairs Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee. Shortly before we came on air, I asked him what he thought of President Zelensky's decision to effectively remove the defence minister from his post. I believe that Mr Fedorov should be reinstated like many people in my country and like many members of parliament.

4:55And I hope it will be done. To me, it's not only a personal conflict between Mr Fedorov as a minister of defence and Commander-in-Chief Oleksandr Sirsky. It's more broad conflict, more broad clash of different approaches to how to wage the war. Because if Mr. Fedorov represents more technocratic, so to speak, approach, relying upon cutting edge technology, General Sierski represents more kind of traditional old school approach. There's still a lot of protesters out on the streets and some of them are reflecting as they see it that Mr. Fedorov is a younger man. he has new ideas, and that he's come up against a resistant old guard.

5:39So do those protesters have a valid point, do you think? I believe yes, because people trust Mr. Fedorov, and they saw results when he was a minister of digitalisation. He proved himself to be a very effective manager, and he has success as a minister. And he's been minister of defence for only six months, but we already have tangible results on the battlefield and people trust him. Are there other people in your party who feel the same as you, that he should be reinstated? There are people like me. I'm not sure whether we are in majority or not because, you know, we are a democratic faction, democratic party, and there is a difference of opinions among my colleagues.

6:24So there are different views on what should be done, whether Mr Fedorov should be reinstated or not. Do you think there is a way for Volodymyr Zelensky to reverse his decision? Technically speaking, Mr. Fedorov was not dismissed. It's about nominating him as a new minister of defence for the new government. And the question is whether the president, of course, it's up to him to decide. He's commander of chief and it's his prerogative to nominate a person with whom he feels comfortable to work with. But I do hope that President Zelensky will nominate Mr Fedorov. He has already put forward another name though, hasn't he?

7:05He's put someone else forward for the job. At the moment we are talking about the acting minister. But he hasn't taken the final decision. He's thinking about it and he's considering several options. But I think that Mr Fedorov is on his list of these options. And so do you think the protesters will stay out on the streets, that there will be more days of protest? What impact could that have, do you think? Well, it's hard to say. The thing is that we don't have elections and we cannot have elections while the war rages on, while there is a martial law. So it's also a form of democracy and we have vibrant democracy and people have this right.

7:48The president himself has said that he agrees that people have the right to express their opinion. And he also mentioned that he will listen to the people, to their opinion. He will take it into consideration. Do you have concerns that Ukraine may backslide now militarily? You talked about the success recently with drones. Are you concerned that that progress of sorts could go backwards now? I believe that it's irreversible. and in particular, thanks to Mr. Fedorov as a minister of defence, we have successful deep strikes and middle strikes. It's also, well, the credit also goes to him for that and for many other people.

8:31It's a common effort, of course. But I do hope that our war efforts will only accelerate and we'll have more progress on the battlefield. Oleg Mareshko there, a member of President Zelensky's party and chair of Ukraine's Foreign Affairs Committee. Well, let's go live to Kiev to talk about this a little bit more with Katie Livingston, who's the Ukraine correspondent for Defense News and Military Times. Hello, Katie. Very good evening to you. Hi, how are you doing? Well, do tell us a little bit more about just the importance of Mr. Fedorov. Why is he so popular with people that people are out on the streets here?

9:10Yeah, I think that's a very important question that most people have a specific answer to. I think he inspired a lot of people, not only because he was a younger guy, but because he came from a non-military background, which actually the majority of the Ukrainian military comes from a non-military background at this point, of course. So in that way, I think a lot of people could see themselves in him and also his reforms. You know, he was addressing a lot of really hard topics that people had been complaining about for a long time. And they appreciated him for doing that, knowing the difficulty that he was coming up against.

9:44And I think a lot of people have mentioned to me that they're afraid that this is exactly what they were afraid of would happen, that he goes against the sort of powers that be, let's say, the more traditional powers in the government that people have had problems with for several years. And he would be pushed out because of it. Right. But here we have tonight an MP from Volodymyr Zelensky's own party saying the decision is wrong. Do you think there could be a rethink? I think it's possible, actually, you know, particularly because of this protest. These have really refrained from going, taking to the streets since the full-scale invasion started over four years ago, other than last summer with the anti-corruption protests, which were huge and important because of that, because they were the first ones.

10:31And you could say this is the second large scale protest since the full scale has started. And this is notably different in that it's not because of a national policy change or something like that. It's because of a specific personnel change, even, you know, at the ministry level. So I think people are not only more energized to to ask for what they want, to demand what they want. The government appears to be listening. And like the lawmaker said, your last guest, Zelensky hasn't officially made it so that Minister Fedorov cannot remain the minister. I mean, I mean, is all of this, and particularly because we've got protesters out on the streets, is all of this a gift to the Russians in a way?

11:16I mean, the army chief has been stressing the real enemy is Russia. Right. And that has been, you know, the problem and the struggle throughout the entire war. Every time there's any problem, anyone wants to criticize the government for anything, they have to pause and say, OK, is this going to be in service of Russia? But, you know, it's a compromise at a certain point. Right. We can't just let the government do whatever they want and say that's, you know, that's being a patriot. It's not at the end of the day. So I think they're really trying to find this balance. And this maybe is some sort of red line that has pushed them to realize that despite Russia possibly benefiting from a propaganda perspective because of these issues, they have to get out on the street because this is that important of an issue.

12:02Interesting. Very briefly, Katie, I mean, is there political risk to Zelensky here with this? Absolutely. You know, I think a lot of people are bringing up General Zeluzny, who now is ambassador to the UK. And very similarly, he was a very popular general in charge of the military. And he was abruptly, surprisingly to a lot of people, pushed out of that position and sent far away. And it seems, you know, a lot of people said that was because he was too popular. And now it appears the same thing from a lot of people's perspectives. Really good to have your insight. Thanks so much. Katie Livingston there in Kyiv, the Ukraine correspondent for Defense News and Military Times.

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13:21Tomorrow lunchtime, Andy Burnham becomes leader of the Labour Party at his third attempt. He'll be sworn in as Prime Minister on Monday. After Labour lost the 2010 general election, Andy Burnham joined the race to replace Gordon Brown. He said then that Labour had its fingers in its ears and hands over its eyes when it came to issues including immigration. That campaign, his first, struggled, as you can hear in this interview on the BBC's This Week. Andrew Neil asked him why, halfway through the contest, more constituency Labour parties hadn't backed him for leader. Andy Burnham, why does your campaign have all the hallmarks of a slow-motion car crash?

14:02Thanks very much. I think it's building very nicely. Thank you very much, Andrew. I've got CLPs around the country beginning to nominate me and I'm gaining a lot of support. David Miliband's got 21 CLPs, Ed's got 22. You've got three. Declared, but I know I've got at least 10, so they're coming in nicely. And the campaign's building well. They've got more declared as well. How could you expect to inspire the country when you can't even inspire your own party? Well, you might underestimate the campaign, but when I'm leader, Andrew, you'll have the first interview. Well, in the end, Andy Burnham was eliminated in the second round of four rounds of voting, Ed Miliband became leader.

14:43His second tilt at the leadership came in 2015. This was his pitch. The party that I love has lost its emotional connection with millions of people. The way to get it back can't possibly be to choose one group of voters above another, to speak only to people on zero-hours contracts or only to shoppers at John Lewis. Our challenge is not to go left or right, to focus on one part of the country above another, but to rediscover the beating heart of Labour. And that must always be about the aspirations of everyone and speaking to them like we did in 1997. Jeremy Corbyn won that contest. So what can we expect when he becomes Labour leader tomorrow on the third attempt?

15:29Let's talk to our political editor, Chris Mason, ahead of a very busy few days. Chris, evening to you. Just tell us a little about the choreography of tomorrow and what Andy Burnham might say? Well, I don't think it'll involve an interview with Andrew Neil, in the words, fulfilling that promise of many a year ago to go in front of a rather fearsome interviewer like Mr Neil, as was promised back then. What will we get tomorrow? Well, it's an odd day, Jane, to be honest, because let's be frank, there's been no jeopardy around who was going to win this contest with one candidate, nor does Andy Burnham get the prize tomorrow that the logic of getting the Labour leadership points to.

16:11In other words, he's got to wait till Monday before he becomes Prime Minister. The essence of what we'll get is a familiar message. He set it out on day one, pretty much, of his by-election campaign in a car park in the Makerfield constituency all those weeks ago. And it's an argument he's been making for some time as the mayor of Greater Manchester. It's this idea about where power lies, about devolving power away from Westminster. He will talk about a distinctively Labour programme, referring to more public control and re-industrialisation, unashamedly Labour, he will say. And he will also say, Jermyn, I think this is an intriguing sentence.

16:51He says he'll be more open to working with other parties on the long-term challenges facing the country. And if we match that sentence with a social media video he posted this evening, taking questions from people in Cardiff. He said in that video, if there is one area where I'm going to expend quite a lot of political capital, it is going to be social care in England. And he refers to his dad's Alzheimer's and his own family experience with the English social care system. And the likelihood of shaking up social care would involve the other parties. So I wonder if that's a pointer as to where he might soon be heading.

17:29Interesting. And lots of speculation, of course, about who will be in the Cabinet. I mean, particularly Chancellor, but more besides. When do we hear more? What are you expecting? Yeah, so there are headlines in the newspapers tomorrow talking about something of a backlash from figures on the left of the Labour Party to the prospect of Shabana Mahmood, the Home Secretary, becoming the Chancellor. She appears at this stage to be the frontrunner to be Andy Burnham's Chancellor, although neither side are confirming anything. It is fair to say you would have had those headlines in reverse had it been Ed Miliband as the Chancellor because there would be some on the right of the Labour Party who would have been equally as uncomfortable with that as some on the left are at Shabana Mahmood.

18:12In other words, for Andy Burnham, welcome to the trade-offs of being Prime Minister. As for the weekend, I don't think we'll hear much at all, if anything, from Andy Burnham. We'll only get confirmation of those appointments and there's a whole load of them beyond just the big jobs at the top of Cabinet until Monday afternoon. All right. We will hear from you then. Thanks so much. Chris Mason, thank you. In a couple of hours from now, US President Trump will make a primetime address to the nation. The White House hasn't given any details about its subject matter. Nobody knows what he'll ultimately say, which is why everyone should tune in, said spokesperson Caroline Levitt this afternoon.

18:51But Donald Trump recently suggested he'd be revealing news about free and fair elections. And there are people in Washington who expect that to include a repetition of his false claim that he won the 2020 presidential election, which, of course, he lost to the Democrat Joe Biden. Let's talk to Julia Manchester. She's White House correspondent for The Hill in Washington, D.C. Evening to you, Julia. Good evening. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Well, do we know any more about what this address is likely to be about? Well, Caroline Levitt said during a press briefing earlier today that President Trump will make a very important announcement.

19:29And President Trump said earlier this week that he would be talking about election integrity, election security, among other topics. So he could bring up other topics in this address. But it remains unclear, though. Speculation is certainly circulating in Washington and around the U.S., as what he will touch on. Yes. But all this emphasis, if you like, on elections and problems with elections, Caroline Levitt talking about evidence to back up claims about election fraud. I mean, are we expecting really something new, something concrete here? We don't know, to be honest, but we know that President Trump really has been revamping or vamping up his comments and, you know, I guess, pushes about election security and election integrity.

20:17He's been pushing Senate Republicans to pass what is known as the Save America Act, which is an election security bill. And we know that he's been increasingly critical of mail-in voting, despite the fact that he has voted by mail in the last few elections. So we may get something new. We may not. However, I think there is a thought or speculation that President Trump could be making more of this chatter about elections and election fraud and election security to essentially make, you know, create an excuse, if you will, if Republicans do poorly in the upcoming midterm elections. Ah, yes. Interesting.

20:58And also, we know the Trump administration is urging people to watch, but urging the big networks to make sure they show it live. Now, do we actually know whether they will? So we're seeing some reporting suggesting that some of the networks and we can confirm that NBC News will not air. They say they plan to air a special report on the network following the remarks, but they will provide live coverage of the president's remarks at 9 p.m. Eastern on NBC News Now, which is the network streaming service. Yes. So we're hearing reporting that, you know, from The Wall Street Journal that CBS News could do the same and ABC News could do the same.

21:42However, we have not confirmed that, you know, that could set up a bit of an issue with the Trump administration and, you know, set up more of a, you know, give the Trump administration a reason to hit back at the networks. However, there's also, I think the networks are, you know, there could be the theory that they're putting it on a streaming platform. And we know that a lot of Americans watch streaming platforms. OK, Julia, thanks very much. Good to talk to you, Julia Manchester, White House correspondent for The Hill in Washington, D.C. Well, presidential addresses have traditionally marked historic moments.

22:18I've been speaking to Dr. Sarah Polak from Leiden University. She specialises in American studies, including presidential image making. And she told me when presidential addresses began. The person who started giving these nationally broadcast primetime addresses was Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1930s. He was not the first president to speak on the radio, but he was the first to give these sort of national addresses. And I think that was just incredibly important for the sense of a national imagined community, if you will, where people feel a nationhood through being this media community, listening to the president, addressing everyone at the same time.

23:00Of course, in the United States, there's these different time zones. But if you broadcast at 9pm in Washington, it's kind of also a prime time further west. And were they envisaged as something to be used sparingly, perhaps not in a time of crisis, but when something very important or significant needed addressing? Yeah, used for issues that really were important to everyone. So Roosevelt used it initially to address the national banking crisis. My friends, I want to talk for a few minutes with the people of the United States about banking. to talk with the comparatively few who understand the mechanics of banking, but more particularly with the overwhelming majority of you who use banks for the making of deposits and the drawing of checks.

23:51There were massive runs on banks throughout the country. Roosevelt closed the banks and said, we need this national reset and everyone in the country has to move along with this so that everybody's money will actually be safe in their bank. Another really famous one is John F. Kennedy giving an address during the Bay of Pigs crisis in Cuba in 1961, this worldwide threat of nuclear war erupting. This government feels obliged to report this new crisis to you in fullest detail. The characteristic of these new missile sites indicate two distinct types of installations. Several of them include medium-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying a nuclear warhead for a distance of more than 1 ,000 nautical miles.

24:42Each of these missiles inshore is capable of striking Washington, D.C., the Panama Canal, Cape Canaveral, Mexico City or any other city in the southeastern part of the United States. That is the sort of scale at which you would give this kind of address. And the point is that people across the country are watching together. Yeah, that is not really the norm, of course. Many things, also news in the United States, happen primarily locally or on the state level. As a forum, this is actually quite unusual. You know, Trump has many forms of addressing people, in particular his own supporters, directly through these big stadiums, but also via Twitter and now via Truth Social.

25:29But Truth Social in particular is actually quite a close environment. And so for Trump, truly an unusual move. I mean, we're in the second Trump presidency. Has he used these national addresses differently to previous presidents? Not really, actually. He's just not done it often, but that is common. The one obvious example would be at the start of the corona crisis. But that is when many prime ministers or presidents gave a national televised address. What is different, I think, in this case, very obviously a kind of self-serving campaign move. And that is really unusual and, to my knowledge, quite unprecedented.

26:14That's really interesting. And can we just talk a little bit more about why you think he is choosing to do this? Because we all know we've touched on his fascination with social media. I mean, we're so used throughout his presidencies of him seeing him tweet at two o 'clock in the morning. Why then would he want to do this televised address now? Pretty old fashioned. Yes, it is unusual, but it's also understandable from the perspective that the midterm elections are coming and it's not going well. So he's leaning into this older form that has a great deal of authority that really kind of signals this is a national crisis.

26:58This has nothing to do with the president. This is just the president serving the country in a time of national crisis. You can see what rhetorically he's trying to do there. He's trying to use that form to get people to rally around him. And he's setting things up for in the future when he may actually lose majorities in both houses or in one of the houses to be able to say, look, this was rigged. I already warned you. We now have to treat it as a crisis, even when it's highly unlikely that there will be an actual crisis of election integrity. Dr. Sarah Polak from Leiden University.