Bonus – Curiosity Over Certainty: The Secret to More Secure Relationships with Ann & Sue (314)

0:01It's to want to learn. And so what's hitting is dopamine. When we have a wanting or a craving to know, it actually is activating the dopamine. And the faster we resolve that, the less we get out of it. Think how often like that example where we go find the answer within 10 seconds. Well, that's great. We move on, but we didn't contemplate it at all together. And remember back when I'm aging ourselves, when we actually could ponder the question, who was the star and whatever, and we didn't actually jump to the answer, that our seeking and finding together is actually our wanting to know that when we drag it out, instead of we jump into the answer so quickly, think how much we get to live in the vitality and the richness.

0:46Hope you enjoy a preview of this full episode published exclusively as a bonus for our incredible online neuro nerd community. This group is the backbone that keeps this podcast thriving. And you can find out more at therapistuncensored.com slash join.

1:06Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Therapist Uncensored. I'm Anne, and I'm so glad to be sitting here with you, Sue. I know. It's been so long. We haven't recorded together in quite a while. We've had some really great guests, and we love sharing the mic, and we love sharing perspective and we love continuing to learn from other people. But it is really great to record with you again. And I'm excited. We decided to revamp a tried and true series that we did because we had a lot of requests, actually from our super cast Patreon members, that really enjoyed our holding our own series. Right. And that original series was called holding your own, dealing with challenging personalities.

1:49And so we went through, in case you haven't heard that one, we went through the different kinds of challenging personalities, including when we are the challenging personality ourselves, and then an episode for each of those. Yeah, this time we're going to take a deeper dive on ourselves. Instead of dealing with personality, it's dealing with our own selves, our own inner experience. How do we find and engage our most secure relating self? That's right. So we're calling it holding your own 2.0, becoming the one that you want. Do you remember also, was it Dan Hartick that we interviewed? The love doctor.

2:26The love doctor. And he was saying, be the one you want to date. Like that's where you start, right? Do you remember him having that conversation? I really love the point. Totally. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yep. So that's what this is all about. That's right. And one of your favorite words is curiosity. That's where we're starting with curiosity. You know, we talk about curiosity. It's very popular right now. Really find that state of curiosity. It's like the elixir of everything, which actually it is in a way, but it makes it sound so easy because we talk about one of the ways you know you're in more of a green, secure state of mind is that you can actually feel curiosity, right?

3:07Because we can't be in threat necessarily, active engagement threat, and find ourselves curious. Right. And, you know, we might go to what is curiosity even? You know, it's a word that we all think that we know and understand. But curiosity actually comes very naturally. It's innate. It's intrinsic to us. And it's what leads us to learn from the get-go. But it's also a metacognitive state that we can cultivate. And it's very healthy for our bodies. And it is one of these signs that when you're able to hold this curious space, it's related to all the other good things that I'm sure we'll get into.

3:45So the idea here is we're going to cultivate the metacognitive state of curiosity. Or is that too psychobabble? Let's not call it metacognitive. Let's just say curiosity. Yes. And it isn't what we think it is, right? Like when I think of people saying, I'm such a curious person. I love curiosity. And the irony is it's so much harder than we think to maintain a state of curiosity and to hold it because many of us think of curiosity. I'm curious about the answer to something. And so how long is it between, when's the last time you were at a dinner party and somebody asked a question like, I wonder who wrote blah, blah, blah.

4:23And four people in the room pull out their phones and we have the answer in about 12 seconds. Yeah, that's not the kind of curiosity that we're talking about. Right. It involves curiosity. because we want information. But often what we do in curiosity is we try to get rid of it as fast as possible. Right. It's a deficit. I have a deficit of knowledge or something and that I want to fill. I want to fill it. It's like oftentimes the deficit can feel anxiety producing and we don't even realize it. And so it's interesting because like the science around curiosity talks about that there's an inverse relationship between the idea of certainty and curiosity.

5:06And so the funny thing is the more uncertain we allow ourselves to be, then the more curiosity we can fill that our body and our brain opens up to this idea of the unknown. But we have to be in an uncertain state. Which is not the most comfortable state in the world. Exactly. So how many of us say, when we say, oh, I love curiosity, I'm such a curious person. How many of us actually say, I love uncertainty. I love not knowing. I like to sit in this state of discomfort of not knowing something. Right. It's so true because we always think we're curious and we want everybody else to be more curious, but we're blind to what we're not curious about.

5:51it is like you're saying it's a state where we have to be an awareness that our thoughts and our beliefs may be wrong yes and if you think of something that you hold deeply especially right we're moving towards epimistic curiosity which really is a little bit of a different kind of curiosity and relational curiosity so it's not just the go solve that problem it's what's related to mindset so that I'm actually interested, not in a deficit of, I need to know where you were born, right? That's one kind, versus I want to know who you are and what it was like growing up for you. Or it's a bigger space of curiosity, kind of like what's a black hole that has this kind of implicit interest, loving motivation.

6:45Your motivation comes from inside versus some of these things where we're missing information and have to go get it. I like that. And it's holding that state, right? Even if it is information, what is a black hole? It's holding this, how long can you wonder about that without seeking the answer? How long can you ask a question and then allow the state to sit in your body of uncertainty and feel the openness to the answer? And that is actually the cultivated state of curiosity that allows us to be more secure. So often though, we feel the impatience of the information we need and we think we're curious and then we seek to find the answer.

7:30But what we're really doing is to try to quell our intolerance of the unknown and the anxiety. And that happens, like you were mentioning, even relationally. When's the last time you were really curious about your partner? Well, here's, I think, the even more challenging thing. When was the last time you were actually curious about your story about your partner? Yeah. It's kind of like an intellectual humility. Let's look at humility. Like, I hold a story about you, Anne, that I think that if I'm certain about, that I'm not, you know what I mean? It closes it down. And even curiosity about my own story that I hold about myself, about the kind of person that I am and being curious about that.

8:14But I think it's, I think the more challenging thing is being curious about the story, about your story, about your other person. Yeah. That's a great way to, that's a great example of, can you sit in that wonder of that? Yeah. Can you even move into a state of wonder about that? Because those are those things that we kind of think we know. Like I know who you are, you know? And we think we know, right? We start in a relationship, even if we get a little bit primal to that, we start in a relationship where we are curious. Where were you born? What were you like in high school? And you can feel the state.

8:47Curiosity, if we really activate that part, opens up our sense of exploration and a sense of oneness, like openness to the world, right? And then we start to tell, like you're mentioning, a story and we start to fill it in. And then we lose, we think we know it all, and then we lose interest in that story, if you will. We think we know our partner or we think we know ourselves. And so then we start to predict. And I think about how often we think we're even curious in a moment. So you got a little esoteric on us. I love it, though. How much do we question our story? If we get into just even how often do we question our in the moment?

9:29Like if I imagine that you're upset. If you look like you're in a mood, like there's something on your face and your face says to me, something's off. How often do I actually let myself feel curious and open about that? Because if I see your face and it looks off, it likely creates, well, I know it does, discomfort for me. So I feel that discomfort and everything is uncertain. And so I want the answer to that uncertainty. So when I say, what's going on? You look like something's off. Am I actually curious? Likely not, because what I'm wanting is the answer. I'm wanting you to tell me because the uncertainty of not knowing what you're feeling makes me uncomfortable.

10:13So now I'm like, what are you feeling? And so when I'm asking you, it sounds like a curious question. I'm saying, what's going on? What's the matter? Which is really like, are you mad at me? Did I do something wrong? And then when I say, when I say, no, I'm just thinking about this interaction I just had with this neighbor, then you're like, oh, okay, good. And then you move on. So relieved. And then I'm on to the next thing, right? If that's all it is, nevermind. I was actually in the middle of something. If it's not about me, then it was not about me. Let me move on. Oh, I think it's a really sweet point, actually.

10:46Really great point. Like, like in that sense of like, okay, the idea of generating curiosity is what we're talking about here. It is so easy to talk about get to a state of curiosity. It is so much harder to help ourselves and those of you out there actually realize how to know what it is and to actually cultivate it. And that's what this episode's about. First, in order to cultivate curiosity, I have to slow down and I have to recognize my discomfort in the unknown. And that I think is one of the harder steps is to go, before I say what's going on, you look off. I'm going to probably have to notice that I feel, I notice that your expression is, I notice your discomfort.

11:28And back to your original point, I probably have a story about it. Like, I don't know, I'm trying to think about our episode went out late today, you know, or something. I'm like, something's happened and I'm making up a story. And it's probably your fault. It is my fault. And so you're going to, And now you're going to make up a defense. I'm already in my explanation. Yeah. And so you're walking in and I see your expression. And it literally, because one of the things that's hard about curiosity is twofold. We make things so much about us. We can be very self-referential as human beings. So of course, if you're upset, it has to do with me, right?

12:07It couldn't be anything else you're contemplating in the world or the news you just read. But of course, I'm going to be in a different state. Sometimes I literally am in a more open state and I can allow myself to access curiosity. And sometimes in a more activated state, I don't. But either way, if I could slow down and go, she seems off, how is that for me? The first point of that curiosity is about me, not you, because I have to help myself generate an open state. So I have to recognize I'm feeling uncomfortable. Okay, wait, wait. That was really good. Say that again. I have to first check in with myself about what place I'm in.

12:48So you need to point your curiosity inward first. I need to be curious about myself. I've noticed that your face is off. I've noticed that it's creating some, is it creating distress, fear, care, concern? I mean, what is it activating in me? And depending on my day, it could be any of those. It's not one thing. It could be very easy for me, honestly, to think it isn't anything to do with me, or it could be really hard in that day to imagine that it's not me because I'm feeling insecure and just generally day late and a dollar short and everything I'm doing, right? So checking in with ourselves first is one of the first stage of actually generating curiosity.

13:29And that is like, where am I? And so we need that pause and to like wonder and wonder about ourselves. What am I? What's going on for me? Thanks for listening to this preview of bonus content. If you would like to continue with the episode or to support free worldwide access to important material like this, you can join our online community for as little as$5 a month at therapistuncensored.com slash join. Thanks.