Session 100: Kerry Washington

29:05So she's the responsible for that whole scene in the beauty salon where I'm like, let me reintroduce myself. That whole Jay-Z moment. Which also is so, that's why we have a show called Reasonable Doubt, because she's a small Jay-Z fan. um so i i loved every moment of the crossover because you know in this business we talk a lot about kind of how women are often put in silos or pitted against each other or made to feel like competition and we shared we graciously shared tgits we celebrated it together we did promos together all three of us but that moment to really be like sisters and create those episodes together was so, so special.

29:49And to get to do it with Miss Cicely Tyson, who neither Viola or I would have the careers we have today if it wasn't for Cicely Tyson and her walking that path ahead of us and really leading the way. So it was really special to be able to work together and to kind of help each other shine. Right. You know? Did you take any, like, lessons from the show? Like, would you ever think in your real life, okay what would Olivia Pope do? Yes I still think at times what would Olivia Pope do and I so Olivia Pope was inspired by a real woman Judy Smith and I do still have a relationship with Judy Smith and I call Judy at times and I'm often asked to refer people to Judy.

30:35Judy's still working? Yes. Okay I was about to have a lot of questions about Judy. So Judy's amazing and I yeah so ask me your question about Judy and then I'll ask you another. No, no, no. Please, you first. Please, you first. Because I'll forget. What are your questions about Judy? She's amazing. Like, is her life, is she like, yeah, like, it's pretty crazy like this? So she's always quick to tell people that the character is inspired by her, but not based on her, because she's like, I never slept with the president. Right. So Judy has a very, like, her personal life is not messy. that's the biggest difference between Judy and Olivia is that her personal life is lovely and sane and you know Olivia Pope is a little bit of a mess which is one of the things we love about her um so but Judy is yeah I mean she has told me such insane stories about situations that she's been in with CEOs with politicians with people in the fashion business in the music business yeah And is it like, does it ever like, is it ever hard?

31:35Because often we see like, you know, Olivia toe the line like with her morals. And like, I feel like that's like a common motif in Scandal is like, she's going to be able to fix it. But at like what cost? Does Judy ever feel that way as well? I will say she taught me a lot about learning to be open minded about perspective. and to really challenge myself to come from a place of less judgment and more curiosity, which is something I'm still always trying to do in my life and at work, but to really not assume that you know what's best and who's best, but to be open to each person's humanity and that a person isn't, a person is not defined by their worst choice on their worst day, right?

32:24And I think that's also a big lesson that we're trying to learn when we talk about criminal justice reform is that like people make mistakes and people should be allowed second chances to the extent that we feel like they can rehabilitate and grow. And so Judy really taught me a lot about that, about like having the courage to lean into gray areas and not feel like you have to sit from your safe perch of like, I know what's good and I know what's right. that life is often more complicated than we give it permission to be. That's beautiful. It can be. I think also sometimes like shit is just fucked up and you need to call it.

33:02Right. Sometimes like you just need to be like, no, that's wrong. Like certain things are wrong and bad. And I think for me, it was hard when I felt like I didn't agree at times with Olivia. But I feel like for the most part, she really did always try to make choices, even though they were complicated ones that were for the betterment of humanity and for democracy. You know what I've been thinking about that is so, well, it's not funny, but it's crazy. I'm like, I would rather have the Fitzgerald Grant government. Oh my God. Than the one we have now. Without question. And there was B613. There was like, it was like a dynasty.

33:42Somehow Mellie was president. I'm like, it was like incredibly corrupt. but I would literally like choose it any day over today. And what was that like when, because Scandal was still airing when Trump became elected. What was, how did you guys deal with that in your story of Scandal? I mean, I feel like that's more of a question for the writer's room, but as I was listening to you, I was thinking there's a little part of me that just hopes that, I mean, first of all, thank you, because I feel like you have single-handedly brought Scandal back into the zeitgeist. Like you have been our biggest champion, our biggest gladiator, and I'm so grateful that so many people are enjoying the show because of your encouragement and your enthusiasm and your devotion and your love, and I'm so, so grateful.

34:36And I feel like one of my dreams, one of my wishes, is that people who are watching the show fall in love, not just with Olivia Pope and with Olitz or Olake, whichever way you go, but that they become a little bit seduced with the idea that we could have a government where your voice matters. That they become a little bit interested in the idea that these people make decisions that really do impact your life. That the people that we put in office matter because they do have an extraordinary amount of power and say. And I guess, you know, for me, I feel like in the I tell this story a lot. But in after the election in 2016, Olivia Pope was trending because people that next morning were like, Olivia Pope has to fix this.

35:31Oh, no, Olivia, save us. Right. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. And then I was like, I don't know that this is OK, because she is an imaginary character on television. and the reality is every single one of those people who was tweeting that they have so much more power than Olivia Pope because they're real, right? Like you're real. You can vote. You can register to vote. You can volunteer for a politician that you believe in. You can donate to a cause that matters to you. You can encourage your cousin or your sister or your mother or your father to vote or to understand an issue more deeply, to be more open-minded and more inclusive, you have more power than these imaginary characters on television.

36:16And I want people to not just fall in love with Olivia Pope, but in the way you have, like I want people to embrace their inner Olivia Pope. Like I want people to understand that you, you, each of us has the power to be the Olivia Pope in the story of our lives, in our communities, in our families. And to answer your question before, like if anything, I do sometimes ask what would Olivia Pope do? but more often I'm grateful because she taught me that. Like playing Olivia Pope taught me that I could have more agency and more voice in my own life, that I could not be afraid to step into power and to understand the places and the spaces where I had influence and to not be afraid to use it and to be that, to wear the white hat in my own life, you know?

37:02Wearing the white hat. Well, you are so active in getting people out to vote. When did you get involved with that? Was it during Scandal? Was it after? So I'll tell you a really funny story. There's this great organization called the Creative Coalition that has, for many, many years, fought for increased funding for the arts and humanities, or just protecting funding for the arts and humanities. And way before Scandal, Tony Goldwyn was a co-president of that organization. And I met Tony doing that work. We used to walk up and down the halls of Congress talking to representatives and senators about the importance of museums and the importance of after school programs for the arts and the importance of literature and really like arts and humanities.

37:46So we would be like in these meetings with politicians years before Scandal, walking around D.C. together. So Shonda thought of Tony for the role of the president on the show because Tony Goldwyn actually directed one of the very early episodes of Grey's Anatomy. He directs? Yeah. He directed a Scandal, several episodes. What? Yes. Now you'll have to go back and see that. I feel like a bad gladiator. So, no, that's, I'm so happy I can actually tell you something. I feel like you've just been teaching me about my show. I know, I know, I know. So he, I'll tell you something else about that. But so when Shonda was thinking, like, what actors have, like, a level of gravitas, a level of, like, executive power?

38:24Like, who do you believe could be in charge? She thought of Tony because she mostly knew Tony as a director and running those spaces. And so she knew he was a great actor, but she thought of, she thinks of him as somebody who's in charge. so she offered the role to him based on their relationship from him directing at Grey's which is amazing and I knew him from our DC advocacy days so kind of getting in a room and doing all this political talk together was not new for us so you guys have been friends forever for a really long time and did you know like Shonda before as well or I didn't I never I had not met Shonda I was a huge fan of Shonda's and when I read the script I told you I read it and I was like oh my god I feel like this was written for me the tricky thing was that there were like 40 other actresses who felt the same way they were like I need this role it was written for me and so it was a highly coveted role in Hollywood everybody I knew was reading for I mean from like age 16 to 60 there were so many people who wanted this role who were fighting for this role and um of course I was going to audition but in Hollywood there's this whole thing about like if you audition it means you have less power so a meeting is fancier than an audition so how it was set up was I was going to meet her first and then if the meeting went well I agreed I would read I mean I didn't care about any of this I was like I'll run craft service this is the most amazing show ever but I but I was like I'll do what my team says to do so I went and met with her and I remember getting off the elevator and the wall said Shonda land and I was like oh I don't know if this is gonna to go well like this I don't know if I want to like move into somebody's land like it just felt so extra to me um and then um I walked in and I met her and I think within two minutes I was like I'm obsessed with this woman her brain her charm she was so intense but so I felt like I like this person and I had so much immediate respect for her and then I then I was in trouble because like I I was like, no, I really want this role.

40:26And then I read for it. And it came down to like four of us tested for the network, which is like you make your deal and you go in and you read for the network and the casting director, Linda Lowy, who is Jeff Perry's wife. That was our casting director. No way. Yes. Yes. And then, yeah, I remember I was sitting at a restaurant in Manhattan Beach with my then boyfriend, now husband. And I got the call. That restaurant no longer exists, but it was a Mexican restaurant called Mucho. And I got the call that it was mine. And I couldn't believe it. I was beyond myself. Do you remember that final audition you did and what you read?

41:03Yeah, of course. We did two scenes. We did the scene where I helped Steven pick out the ring that Huck brings the rings. And then we did the bench scene. Be normal. Yeah, be normal. Oh, my God, I never would have remembered that. And then the bench scene where I say to the intern, like, get a new car. I get like all the things where I read her right before it's handled. Right. That scene. Yeah. Speaking of Steven, I remember he he wasn't he didn't come back for season two. Yeah. Where do you I know you you're not Shonda, you're not in the writer's room, but like in your dream world, like where do you think he would have gone in scandal world if he had stayed?

41:43Oh, wow. Well, I love where he wound up, to be honest with you. I mean, I never expected that. I forget it every time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to spoil your third time watching. No, I already saw it. I'm on season six. But when he appeared in that episode and saved Olivia's life, I just thought, well, this is the way that you heal this moment. It was perfect. And give him closure, give us closure. Like, I just, I loved every moment of that. And it really did allow he and I to reconnect and have some peace about it. It just, it was really, really so special. I love that the writers did that for the show, for him, for us, for the fans.

42:23It was really such a great surprise. I remember it was just, that was besides Happy Birthday, Mr. President. I remember just being like, and that for some reason like really killed me inside because it makes you think, I think it was season four. And it makes you think like, and imagine if he was in that office this whole time. Yeah, because he's such a great guy and such an extraordinary actor. And it is fun to think. I would love to see some fan fiction on that. Yes. I'll write it. I'll have to say another episode. Okay, great. Standing by. Speaking of departures, another episode that kills me that I can never rewatch is The Harrison Funeral.

43:06Oh, I mean, that was just. That was just. And, like, no one shows up. It's devastating. It's devastating. I mean, because that's when OPA just falls. You go to the Bahamas. because Harrison's dies. And it's, how do we even get back there? And Quinn, God bless her. God bless her. Gets everyone back. And she was the last person added to OPA. I know, who is Quinn Perkins? Yes, yes. Besides Marcus, who's a great addition to OPA. Yeah, we love Marcus. Because he had like the most morals out of anyone. It's so true. And I love that he comes out of that like activism, that lawn chair episode was so extraordinary also.

43:43And you know, it was interesting for me, I always think about that lawn chair episode and that's where we met Marcus and I love that he joined our show. That episode was so important because I think for the first few seasons, it was so powerful that there hadn't been a black woman as the lead of a network drama in almost 40 years. And so in many ways, we stayed away from race. We would sort of dip our toe into talking about race, but we sort of, just the fact that Olivia Pope existed and sort of walked with her blackness in the worlds that she was in was enough of a statement. But as the show went on, I think the writers felt more and more emboldened and encouraged to explore some of Olivia's position on race and politics and injustice.

44:24And so I think the lawn chair is also a really, really special episode. I remember I remember that episode also as like one of the moments where because up until then, Olivia would kind of do whatever the job required. That's right. And I remember in that episode, you something it switched. Yeah. Switched. And I choose morality over professionalism. Yes. Just it's a real moment. Do you remember the reaction to that episode? I remember people being really moved and and shocked and and very moved. You know, we were in a moment as a country where those conversations were bubbling. And so I think people were people were always really delighted whenever we stepped into territory that was in any way taboo.

45:09And I do remember those moments. I remember those moments as our gladiators, our audience, feeling permission to be more honest, more bold, more able to communicate in truth. You know, it's like I had one of the, I think, the first on-camera abortion on television, on network television. Wait, that was one of the first? I think it was the first. I think characters have had abortions, but to actually watch a character in that moment had never happened before. And I remember we had our table read on a Thursday that day and Shonda had been going back and forth with the powers that be at ABC about whether or not they were going to allow that scene in the episode.

45:51And she was like, I'm not going to allow the episode to be aired without that scene. So we were all like, I don't know if scandal's coming on tonight. We were all kind of freaked out. But she was so steadfast about when she didn't want to shy away from things that were uncomfortable for people or controversial because she felt like that's who this character is. That's who this woman is. You guys, tonight's episode of Therapist is sponsored by the one and only Popsicle. For the past, like, I want to say maybe year or two years, I've been doing Popsicle reveals with my best friends and I infamously only like the cherry flavor and I oftentimes don't get it.

46:34So Popsicle gave me an all cherry Jake Shane Popsicle box. It was quite literally one of the greatest things that has ever happened to me. And we did a giveaway where 500 people won the all cherry box. Unfortunately, now the giveaway has closed, but it was so exciting. You guys loved it. I loved it. My friends loved it. Everyone loved it. It was so fun. So I'm so excited that we are partnering with Popsicle for therapists because it is just infiltrating every part of my life as it should. Popsicle Ice Pops are so nostalgic for me. I think that's why I loved doing the Popsicle Reveal so much because I was like reminded that I had free will as an adult and I could just order Popsicles and have them whenever I wanted.

47:14You know, I used to have to ask when I was a kid. So we are going to do a fun little game today on Therapist. We are going to do Smash or Pass Popsicle Edition with some of your favorite nostalgic childhood items. I'm going to hold up an orange if it's a pass and obviously a cherry if it's a smash, which I will pull with 100 % success rate from my Jake Shane All Cherry Box. Keep in mind, I'm being dramatic. I don't hate the other flavors, but I obviously just love cherry the best. Okay, you guys, I'm obviously going hands-free for this game because I'm double fisting popsicles. So Louise is going to read some of the childhood nostalgic items, and I'm going to smash or pass.

47:51Okay, school field day. It depends what age. I would say ages under 12, smash. Ages over 12, pass. I don't care. Unless it's overnight. If it's overnight, pass. Or smash. The used book fair. The used book fair, smash. That is the first time I ever stole something. I stole an entire thing of books, CDs, and video games for my computer from the Scholastic used book sale. After school sports. After school sports, pass. Pass, unless it's volleyball. Smash. Trading cards at recess. Trading cards at recess. Pass. Sorry, I don't care. Classroom pizza parties. Classroom pizza parties. Pass. I hate pizza.

48:33Glow in the dark stars on your ceiling. Glow in the dark stars on your ceiling. Smash. I think those are fun. Smash. It's because I've been quite negative. Instant messaging. Instant messaging. Smash. I love AIM and iChat. Do you want to give like a story about it? No. Okay. Awesome. Collecting stuffed animals or keychains? Okay, collecting stuffed animals, I still do that, so smash. Summer sleepovers. Summer sleepovers, smash. Okay, the last one is going to be... I'm on the edge of my seat and my popsicle. The last one's going to be first flip phone. First flip phone, smash, unless everybody else had a touchscreen phone.

49:19Pass. Okay, I gave you my hot or cold takes. What throwbacks would you add to the list? And is it a cherry or an orange for you? Thank you again, Popsicle, for sponsoring tonight's episode. I can't express what you mean to me. Do you mind if we play like a little scandal game really quickly? Of course not. Okay, so I wanted to play Kiss, Marry, Kill with scandal motifs. Oh my God. Okay. There's three. Kiss, Marry, Kill. Jam in Vermont. Okay. Wearing the white hat. Oh, God. Okay. You can't take command. Oh. Oh. Kiss, Mary, Kel. I think the white hat is kiss, the jam is Mary, and you can't. You're so cute.

50:12And you can't take command would be Kel. God, I mean, Mr. Pope. Mr. Pope. So do you know the story? Okay, so Joe Morton is one of my acting heroes. He did an independent film by John Sayles when I was a kid, really young, called Brother from Another Planet. It was an independent movie. Nobody saw it, but my parents were like art people, art house movie kind of people, and that movie was on in my house. And I loved Joe Morton. And we knew him from other stuff, from theater. So he's literally the first guest star that I called home about. Was like, mom and dad you're never gonna believe who's on the show but I did not know who Joe Morton was playing on the show I did not know he knew because he had an offer at the time to also do a play on Broadway and Shonda was like I need you to come play this character and he was like I don't see who this character is or where they're going and she said you're gonna be Olivia's dad but no one can know not even Carrie so Joe Morton shows up at our table read I'm freaking out I call home I'm like you guys joe morton's on the show this is so cool and i never get any scenes with him all his scenes are these cryptic scenes with cyrus bean on a bench or jake on a bench like having these weird rendezvous conversations and i'm like i hope we get a scene together one day he's like so literally it's not till i read that episode where i get at the table read with my cast where i get in the car and he's sitting there and i look up and say dad question mark that was the moment that I found out that Joe Morton was playing my father.

51:46Was everyone like gasping? Everyone was freaking out. Oh my God. And we did a show, we did a live table read at the Paley Center before the episode aired or maybe the night that the episode aired where we read that episode out loud. And I remember because, oh my God, there were so many amazing, amazing people in the audience. But one of them was Debbie Allen who directed episodes of Scandal and who actually choreographed the dance sequence in the episode that I directed. But everybody, when we got to that line at the Paley Center, went crazy. Like people were jumping out of their seats, like throwing stuff.

52:22And we also didn't know, like even though at that point I knew he was my dad, we went to Shonda and we were like, well, what's our relationship like? And she was like, we kind of haven't figured it out. So when we shot the end of that episode, I said, dad, 150 different ways. We have me being like, dad, dad, dad. yeah like every version of dad because we were like we don't know where it's going so that was really exciting and then I was like oh I think I'm gonna have some scenes with him and then I got to just spend the next few seasons working opposite one of my acting heroes and learning from him every single day what do you remember what you learned from him I mean one of the greatest things I learned from Joe was to not be afraid of your anger um and there's also a real elegance to the way that he works.

53:16It taught me a lot about where Olivia Pope comes from, but it really taught me about just what elegance looks like, what it sounds like. Because no matter what emotion he had, he never left his elegance behind. Right. So beautiful. He had some of the greatest monologues in that show's history. Greatest. What'd he say? come hell or high water. And to be clear, I am the hell and the high water. Well done. Yeah, I mean, he said that thing that black families have been saying to black kids forever of you have to be twice as good to get half as much. And people were freaking out on the internet because that's like people, something that like only black people said to each other.

54:01And he just like put out on blast into the culture, which was so incredible. Yeah, he had so many amazing, he taught her everything about wine. You know, he's, it was really fun to get all that backstory and that relationship. And, you know, I wrote in my own memoir, Thicker Than Water, that I've always had a really complicated relationship with my dad. And I think it was really powerful for me. I didn't even know at the time. I have all these notes in the margins of my scripts being like, boy, what am I working through? Because I really believe characters come into your life to teach you things.

54:33And so in the scenes with Joe, I was always like, what is the dad stuff that I'm working through? I can't really put my finger on it. so it's so interesting to me that after the show ended the kind of world of me discovering more about my relationship with my dad not being my biological father and all of that that that like unfolded after the show ended that all unfolded after yeah right after we wrapped yeah do you mind if I ask you no please do yeah okay um can you imagine I wrote a whole book about it I'm like I'm not taking questions no I mean there's you know what like sometimes people want to just put stuff out there and leave it.

55:07That's true. That's true. I appreciate you asking. No, no, no, you can. I feel like you can ask me anything. Well, my God, I love you. You found out about that through a show, right? Yes. Another show. I was friends with Skip Gates, who is a professor at Harvard who has this show, Finding Your Roots, on PBS, where they research people's ancestry. And I'd always wanted to be on the show, but I never had time because we were always shooting we were always filming and when I wasn't filming Scandal I was either making a movie or getting married or having a baby like that's what all my off seasons were and when Scandal he read in I don't know he read online somewhere that it was going to be Scandal's final season and he called me and was like you can finally be on the show will you come do it I said absolutely I was so excited because I just knew that my parents were going to be thrilled to find out more about who they were and who I am and and so I told my parents that I was going to be doing finding your roots and my mom was like oh that's good and I was like that didn't sound authentic and my dad basically started having panic attacks um and I was like what's happening and so I actually I was like you know what dad maybe you should talk to Skip Gates because you guys are kind of of a similar generation and you know kind of older black man like maybe he can help you navigate whatever fears or concerns you're having and so my parents actually told Skip before they told me.

56:29My mom was like, hey, let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that Carrie, we used a sperm donor to have Carrie. Is that something that would show up on the show? And Skip was like, 150 % and you should tell her. And they were like, we can't, we can't tell her. But he helped convince them to tell me. And how did you initially like take that news? um i would say i was talking about it with my younger daughter recently i was telling her i think i've had all the feelings about it like any feeling you could possibly have on like a chart of feelings that they have at school like i have had those feelings about this um initially i think i was shocked and then really weirdly i was like relieved because i always knew that there was something it's like that the princess and the pea thing you know at the danger of referring to myself as a princess like I always like knew that there was something off in the relationship in our family but I couldn't put my finger on it so to get that news was like oh okay right now maybe we can start being like real in this family and did you notice like a change in your relationship with your dad like a like a lighter weight was a weight was lifted off I would say with my mom things changed immediately because my mom and I had always had this secret between us that was really in many ways protecting my dad and so we like immediately fell into a new kind of intimacy and lightness and um it was as if I sort of talk about it in the book as if like a veil got lifted between us.

58:14For my dad, it was a little more complicated because he really didn't want to talk about it or deal with it. He kind of didn't want it to be true and didn't want to acknowledge it publicly and just wanted to ignore it completely, which I was like, we're not doing that. Right. So it had its challenges for sure moving forward. And what was it like writing the book? yeah writing the book was really helpful because I really feel like I wrote the book for myself to make sense of all this to kind of go back through my life with this new framework and understand myself and my family more clearly like somebody gave me a key to unlock my family and now I wanted to go back in and sort it through so the book was really helpful and really healing and I I mean, in many ways, and so many people have said this to me, my dad is the hero of my book.

59:09You know, he's, he is the guy who like, despite what biology says, he's my dad. He's always been my dad and he loves me so hard. He's never wanted to entertain any thought other than that. And I'm so lucky that I had people in my life who loved me so much that they like, not just prayed and hoped for me, but like did something. I mean, when I was born, it wasn't like today. We both have so many friends who use sperm donors. Like go and look through a binder and like pick out what color eyes the donor has and where they went to college. And like this was the Wild West. Like this was my mom doesn't know anything about the donor.

59:43She was like, I just want him to be black and healthy. And really, she says they wanted him to be black just so that nobody knew that my dad wasn't my dad, wasn't my biological father. But it was the Wild West. You know, she just like went to an office when they said there was sperm there. And that was it. She didn't know where it came from. She didn't know anything. so it was um it was it was really great for us as a family for me to write the book and then for us as a family to kind of get to live in that truth and my dad is in such a different place about it now wow yeah congratulations I feel like you've also helped so many people in so many families oh thanks it's true like you know sharing your story like that like definitely makes it so much less taboo but I think it's funny it's like I had spent so much of my life dedicating myself to being these other characters and I think one of the reasons why acting was something that I gravitated toward is because I was looking for myself I was looking for the answer to that question of who am I and it would be like am I this person am I Chenille from Save the Last Dance well a little bit but not fully am I Olivia Pope well a little bit but not fully and it was almost like this character and this show was so groundbreaking and just changed and shifted history and culture so much that it was finally like when this was over I had the courage to really get the information of who I was right it was wild it was like okay you've now like stop looking for your for yourself in these other people I think also because I had been her for so long that it was when that show ended I really was ready to re-examine and ask myself who am I now so there was like this space in my life for taking on a new character.

1:01:24And that new character was me. It was like, now I think I'm ready to be number one on the call sheet of my life. Because she had taught, really, Olivia Pope taught me what it, she taught me that I was capable of being the lead, of having my name on that door, of being the center of the story. And so now I was ready to be the center of the story of my real life. Right. And what was it like saying goodbye to Olivia Pope? Thank you. You know, I was ready. I feel like that's often not what people want me to say, but I was really ready. Remember Shonda came to me and she was starting to feel ready.

1:02:03And she was like, you know, I either have like one more longer season or like two more shorter seasons. and we talked about it and it felt like the two more shorter seasons would be better for fans better for us better for everybody to be able to say goodbye um and it felt like it was time it felt like we had told all the story we could tell with her and I wanted to go out before people before other people were done with her um so I was ready but I definitely missed her and I felt like I always will feel so grateful to her. Like she gave me so much. I mean, she gave me my career. She gave me my production company.

1:02:50In my scandal years is when I learned so much about what it means to be part of a family. And I mean that in both ways. Like I had never been part of a project that went on for eight years, right? Like so to be in a creative family in that way, but also in those years and the stability of that show is when I got married and started having children And so I really, I just learned so much in that time. I became a producer in that time. I made some of the best friends in my life in that time. I learned how to hire people, how to fire people. I learned how to, you know, there was just so, there was so much that I, that I learned and that she gave me that I'll just forever be so grateful.

1:03:29I mean, it is literally my comfort show. I've seen it three times. I watched it during COVID. I watched it while it was live on television. And then I was with my friend and we were going through Netflix the other day and we were like, oh, and Scandal, obviously. And he was like, oh, I've never seen Scandal. And I was like, okay, well, if we're going to do this, we are doing it. I get jealous. Sometimes when people haven't seen shows that I love, I get jealous because I'm like, oh, my God, like you get to live through that for the first time. Like when people tell me they haven't seen Game of Thrones or even just more recently, like I love the Penguin.

1:04:06When people tell me they haven't seen Penguin. I haven't seen it. Oh, my God. I know. It's so good. She just won for it. Yes. And she so deserved. So incredible. So, so good. Yeah. Like I, I get really like excited for people when they haven't seen shows that I love because I'm like, oh, you are about to get on a ride. Oh, do you. What are you what are you watching right now? What am I watching right now? I was late to the pit but just finished and am obsessed okay I can't wait I got two episodes in and then I started my scandal rewatch no no no there's room for both you must you must come back to the pit but I'm like an employee right now like I can seriously like I'm like do you promise me you'll go back to the pit I promise you I will go back to it but like right now like I am like hourly I'm paid hourly at OPI I'm obsessed I am clocked in every single night from 9 to 12 like I can't And unfortunately, like I have a job.

1:05:01So like I'll go back to it. Okay, well when that's done, when that gig is done, please. It's really, like the pit is fantastic. It's so, so, so, so good. Yeah, that's a show I love. I love the studio. I thought that was great. Still need to see that. So fun, so fun. So I feel bad. I feel like I'm getting you behind on the things that you must watch. You're getting me? Like I need, okay, I need to watch this and I need to watch this. Okay, it's lined up. You'll get to it. Yes, yes. Okay, good. Yes. Before we finish Our scandal talk Because I feel like I have to ask you About your new projects as well Yes Thank you You're so sweet Do you Who do you believe Was better to Olivia Pope Oh Jake Or Fitz Because re-watching this As a 25 year old Tell me Tell me Tell me what you think Re-watching this as a 25 year old Obviously when I re-watched it When I was 20 I was like Fitz Like You know like literally So he's magic And then I'm like Wait why are you like actually a horrible gaslighter?

1:05:58Like, I'm like, you're horrible. He's literally like horrible. Like, I'm like, wait, you are the biggest gaslighter I've ever seen in my entire life. So all Jake wants to do is just be like, I will give up everything right now for you. So interesting. Right. But also Jake has this like violent temper thing that people often call out. And then also you see the way he treats other people in his life. Yeah. And it's weird. It's very, very broken. When he's married to Vanessa and he just ruins Vanessa. Ruins. So you're like, ooh, okay, if you're going to treat them that way, what stops you from treating?

1:06:32Who's to say that you won't do that to Olivia? Yeah. I mean, I feel like she just needs a healthier option. Yeah. But I also love both those actors. And I thought both of those relationships were so dynamic and interesting and complicated and real. Like, I don't know. I think both men really love her. I just think everybody on Scandal needs a lot of therapy. A lot. Do you have? Or therapists. Well, everyone's welcome. Do you have a favorite needle drop from Scandal? Because I told you before mine was Sam Cooke. I hadn't remembered that. That's so good. What is the episode? Because you'll know, I think.

1:07:16Ain't no mountain high enough. Do you remember that? and it's like a it's early and there's like we're going in at we're in the apartment where i feel like i remember liking that one a lot will you you know what else i love which is when do they do everyday people that's a great one that is like that's also a great one season two okay i forget when but i remember being like i need to like look at my can you look at the scandal playlist and start reading me off some there's also like um oh my god there's this one it's not the original It's like a cover of this one song. Shonda was so hands on with the music.

1:07:51It was so powerful and important to the show. But I think also the light. I mean, I still get chills when I hear it sometimes. Like I'm going to walk down the aisle to the light. Oh, that's so sweet. It's seriously like it. When you hear that, you're just like you melt. Yeah, because that one minute. I mean, that was one of the really incredible things. When it said in the script, they sit there for one minute. And then I think in the actual script it said, not a TV one minute, an actual real time, real world one minute. And I was like, we're never going to do that on television. We're never going to actually sit there for one minute.

1:08:32And we did. We did. We sat there for one minute. It was so special. Can you imagine telling Olivia Pope in that moment, like, yeah, so this actually isn't going to work out right now. No, that would have been so bad. Yeah, because in that moment, you're like, oh, he chose her. Yeah. But that's the roller coaster we sign up for with these shows. Can I tell you the most random plot line? Tell me. In what? No. In what world? Yes. Of the many, which one? I want you to. OK, Tom and Cyrus.

1:09:08What? That was interesting. I'm like, wait. And also, Michael, respectfully, why are you mad that Cyrus is cheating on you? This is arranged. Oh, my God. I love it. You know what I mean? It was a lot. It was a lot. It just was a lot to track, too. But that was I feel like Shonda loved to just challenge us, challenge our notion of what's possible, what's not. Yeah. But I even remember. So we were I had been doing all these scenes with Cyrus Bean, Jeff Perry, who. OK, so here's the story of how Jeff Perry got on the show. So Shonda Lynn, Linda Lowy, who had been working with Shonda for many years, she cast Grey's Anatomy.

1:09:45She was moving offices. Shonda Lynn was moving offices. And Shonda was in Linda Lowy's office. And Jeff Perry was helping his wife move. And Shonda saw him carrying a box. And she was like, oh, my God, that's so sad. Linda was like, what's sad? She was like, that actor. He's like a Chicago actor. I love him. But now he's moving people. Like, that's what he's doing for money. Linda was like, no, he's my husband. And Shonda was like, he is? I love him. He's amazing. Put him on the show. There was no auditions for Cyrus. It was just Jeff Perry. That's it. Jeff Perry. No one else could have played Cyrus.

1:10:17No. But then we're shooting, I don't remember what episode number, but I'm shooting a scene with Jeff Perry and they hand out the scripts for maybe the third or fourth episode of the show. And we're shooting one episode, but we get the scripts for the new one. And I start like reading it when I can in between takes. And I get to the line where Cyrus's husband opens the door. and I'm like, you're gay. Yeah. So I'm sitting with him doing the scene. At that point, he didn't know he was gay. So we're sitting doing the scene and I looked at him and I was like, Jeff? And he said, yeah. I was like, I know something about you that you don't know.

1:10:49He was like, what? I was like, I can't tell you, but you have to read the episode immediately. It was so fun. It was so exciting. That was one of the most devastating love stories on Scandal. Because Cyrus never chose his morals. I know. But did he have them? Well, there's a good question. But that fight scene between the two of them, the naked fight scene. Oh, where he's stripping. Yeah, I love that scene. Because he can't even talk to his husband without being like, are you wearing a wire? Yes, no trust. No trust. Yeah. Zero. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Please tell me about the new Knives Out movie and the Prophecy season two.

1:11:25You're so sweet. Yeah, I'm so excited. So on the Simpsons Street side, so I started my production company during these scandal years. I did a film for HBO called Confirmation. And that was our first film. And now we have so much exciting stuff going on. We have Reasonable Doubt on Hulu. We have this amazing audio series called The Prophecy, season two. It's this very cool, like supernatural thriller where I play a woman. Basically, the idea that was first pitched to me, it was during COVID when we were all feeling like, what is happening in the world? And this brilliant writer, Randy, was like, okay, what if the stuff you read in the Bible isn't actually stories about the past?

1:12:01What if it's prophecy about what's to come or stuff we're living through right now? And so I play this character who cannot get pregnant, but suddenly finds myself pregnant. My name is Virginia for Virgin Mary, middle name Mary. And there's like this scientist in London who works with lions who said he's Daniel in the lion's den. And like a character named Jonah who gets swallowed whole by a whale, like all these weird happenings. So that was season one, which you should catch up on because it's David Oyelowo and Daniel Day Kim and Lawrence Fishburne. and like incredible cast. Season two, the adventure continues.

1:12:34I'm now on the run with this baby from this like crazy cult leader type character played by Giancarlo Esposito and Dulé Hills in it. It's really, really fun. And I love doing audio series because you get to just like close your eyes and drop into a world and you can listen while you're running or doing whatever. And what's it like creating that audio series as opposed to filming a show? I mean, I know it's visual versus audio. It's so great because you don't have to sit through hair and makeup. You can just like show up in your pajamas and for me there's something about that that actually leads to this very pure performance like I feel as though I've done some of my best acting in this series because you're not thinking about where is the camera and how do I look or any of that you're just like dropped into this alternate reality in a booth in this like cocoon of creativity so it's very pure, very raw.

1:13:26Right. Yeah. And then Knives Out. Knives Out. I've watched the first two. I love those movies. Me too. They're excellent. I feel so lucky to be in the Knives Out universe to be in this Wake Up Dead Man movie is so fun. The cast is extraordinary. Andrew Scott and Josh Brolin and Josh O 'Connor and Glenn Close and Mila Kunis. I mean, just like Jeremy Renner, his first movie back after his big accident. Like, it's just an incredible, and of course, Daniel Craig. Yeah, I was like, I feel like, wait. They're back. He's amazing. He's our fearless leader. I love the filmmaker, Rian Johnson. I love the cast.

1:13:59This, this iteration of the film is like a little bit darker. It's a little bit like gothic in a way. It's so cool. So like smart and funny and gripping and like there's no way in hell you will guess the ending. You never do. You never do, which I love. Where did you guys shoot it? We, what's weird is, okay, so the film takes place in upstate New York, but we shot it in London because it's just so much cheaper to shoot overseas right now, which is sad. We have to do something about that in the state of California. You need to bring back production to Los Angeles. We really do. I just shot two projects here, which I'm really proud of.

1:14:34So my company, Simpsons Street, we have a new series that we just finished shooting for Apple called Imperfect Women with me and Lizzie Moss. Wow, congratulations. And Kate Mara. Very exciting. So that'll be out next year. And then I did a movie with Ben Affleck called Animals. So those two things shot in LA and I'm so grateful. But we just have to bring more work back here. I feel like especially after the fires as well there's just like this big push especially from like um the the the acting community the cast and crews to be like LA was once such a hub for production yeah and I feel as though maybe it got lost in like I I've recently learned this that like every location has an agent like you have to go through an agent to get a location is that true well the biggest thing that's sort of forced the shift is finances.

1:15:22It always comes down to money. And there's just so many more incentives in other states and countries to shoot. So we just have to work on getting more of those incentives here in LA so that people can work and be with their families. That's the big thing is that we have so much talent here in Los Angeles. And a lot of that talent is constantly being flown to other places or just out of work. And so we don't want to sort of squander our creative community here. We want to provide work for people to do what they do well and chase excellence while still being able to be home for dinner. Right. And also I feel like a lot of people don't know this and I recently learned it, but a lot of the time when you work on a set, the cast and crew comes from the surrounding area because it's work for that area.

1:16:01That's right. So if you're not shooting in LA, a lot of the people that work in costume and cast and crew are unemployed. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm really, I'm excited about all the stuff we I'm going on. I cannot wait for people to see Wake Up Dead Man. It's just like it's so fun to be part of a movie like that, being a thriller, a mystery murder thriller and to be part of an ensemble. Like, honestly, I've said this in other interviews. It gave me scandal vibes, you know, to be more to be back with a set of actors where like every if you show up to do a Knives Out movie, you're not looking to be the star you're like I want to be part of a team of badass talented people who want to create something special together and that was how we always worked at Scandal like we were never we didn't compete for attention we didn't compete for press we weren't we were so supportive of each other we used to get together on the weekends to rehearse scenes we used to get together at each other's houses to watch episodes because when an episode actually aired we were just tweeting not watching it all we were doing was looking at Twitter and responding to people so we would try to watch the episodes beforehand so that we knew what we were even tweeting about we were so close and it was really fun to be in another ensemble like that again right do you ever think down the line you guys would ever do some type of reunion it's funny i've thought about it i mean obviously it's up to shonda i don't know if we have it in us to do like a series of course revisit but i I think it could.

1:17:31I feel like there's a universe where maybe there could be a scandal movie, but I don't know. I don't know if it would have to happen, you know, before I'm like, it's handled sometime in the near future. So I don't know. I don't know. It's a good question, though.

1:17:49OK, I want to do the tell me what's wrongs. And so the tell me what's wrongs are the pussies right in and they tell us what's wrong. OK, I'm scared. I peaked in my 20s. Oh, no. I'm 34 and have a fairly normal but good life. However, I've been feeling very bored these days, and everything is very repetitive. My 20s were so much fun, even into postgrad, as I traveled all the time and had no idea what the future held. Is this just a funk, or am I not doing enough to feel fulfilled? Oh, my goodness. I think you always have room to peak again, but it just might mean shifting your perspective on what you're chasing.

1:18:27Right? Like for me, I feel like my priorities have shifted in life. So I don't think I've peaked in my career. I still feel like I have room to grow and magic to create and exciting things to be a part of. But I also see my peak differently now. Like now I'm chasing more than just a cover of a magazine because I've done a lot of those. And I don't think I was ever chasing that actually per se. but I feel like I'm more ambitious about all of my life. Like it's not just this one thing. Like I want to be as ambitious about my marriage as I am about acting, as ambitious about my kids as I am about social justice.

1:19:12Like I want to be able to be ambitious about all those things. So maybe the peak just looks and feels different at different times in your life. And you can peak in different ways. But it's like you don't want to get caught in that thing that people always talk about Michael Jackson and being so depressed because he could never get back to that initial first feeling of having that huge, huge album. And he was always chasing those numbers. It's like, don't try to repeat what it was in your 20s. Find a new peak. Find what the best of you looks like and feels like now. And I feel like it's hard with social media.

1:19:45Yeah. And I do it all the time. All I do is compare myself. First of all, that's insane because you are one of one. So you can't compare yourself with other people because you're like, you're the best you there ever is going to be, Jake. And like. Thank you. Right. But I hear you. It's hard. It's hard. It's just I've really, really been trying to get off social media lately. And it's become very, very addicting, especially for my generation. And I think I assume what this person is going through is like seeing all their friends. Other people do. Probably doing more stuff. I mean, whether that be on LinkedIn, whether that be on TikTok, whether that be on Instagram.

1:20:20and I think there's a certain piece and obviously it's not realistic to just shut it off. But to have moments where you can just like be present and I know that's rich coming from me because I'm the least present person in America. But I think that is the only way to find a new peak and to find it is to really get off that for a minute. What do you say to yourself when you find yourself in, I have a girlfriend who calls it compare and despair. Like when you're in compare and despair, what do you do to shift it for yourself? I really have been struggling with it. I don't have like a way yet. Oftentimes if I'm, I like to like repress.

1:21:03So I'll put on TV. So I like throw myself into scandal or whatever show I'm watching and just live in that world.

1:21:15Or I'll, I don't know what I do. What does your girlfriend do? That's a good question. She is a firm believer in turning off the socials, which you already said. But I think coming back to you, what you said about presence, I think sometimes connecting with people in real life can be an antidote to the compare and despair that happens online. Because when you get together with this friend who you're watching with or just people in your life who really know you and love you, it's important for me to remember that there are people who love me today, that I don't have to be somebody else to earn that love or to earn likes or follows or whatever.

1:22:04I have people who are down for me as who I am right now in this moment. No makeup, lashes off, just who I am. That's what I try to remind myself as well. And I also, I was thinking about this when I, when I really get in those things, I'm like, I do try to be like, oh my God. Okay. If I was who I am comparing myself to be, I wouldn't be anywhere near what I'm doing today. Yeah. I wouldn't be here with you. Your unique experience is yours and yours alone. I wouldn't. Yeah. I wouldn't be talking to you. I wouldn't be living with my best friends. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't know her. I wouldn't know him.

1:22:44Like I wouldn't. So in those moments, I'm like, I am only here because of how I've because of who I am. Like I like who you uniquely are. I wasn't trying to be anyone else. That's right. When it like when it happened for me. And that's actually what I always remind myself. I'm always like you wouldn't even have these opportunities that you want that you're not get it. Like let's say I don't get an opportunity and I'm upset about it. I wouldn't even have a chance to get that opportunity had I not been myself up until that very moment. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's beautiful. So that's what I try to remind myself.

1:23:22Yes. Thank you. Yes. I feel like that's what Olivia Pope would say. Like, what do you have? What are your gifts? Like, that's what you have to be focused on. Yeah. That's what I remind myself. Yeah. Well, on a less somber note, my roommate spoiled scandal for me before I started the last season. Oh, no. oh okay rude they didn't mean to but i need to know how to proceed so i don't murder her deep breaths i would say that there is so much that happens yeah there's so much nuance yeah tgit was a moment right so every thursday something crazy happened crazy so while something might have been spoiled not everything the journey is what's important in scandal look Look at you.

1:24:07I know. Like, Carrie, you brought it out of me. I love it. I love that. Yeah. He's right. Yes. And also, it's my third time watching Scandal. And you're still loving it. And I'm still working at OPA. Like, I'm still here. You love that so much. Yes. I'm still here. My friends were so toxic that I had to move colleges. Now I'm a sophomore and have no friends at this new school. my last group of friends were so manipulative and repeatedly would make the guys i liked or dated leave me oh my god i'm a little not friends yeah those were absolutely not friends i'm a little scared to make new friends so what's a good start in terms of getting out of that shell oh maybe focus on an interest right like i think figure out something that you're passionate about whether it's like an intramural team or a hobby or a choir or a fitness class, whatever it is, like, but try to lean into your interests.

1:25:07Like where are the places that help bring out the best parts of you, places where you go and you feel good because you feel interested and that'll make you maybe feel more confident about getting to know the other people who share that common interest. I agree too. I think at that point it's like focus. I remember I met the greatest people in my entire life once I like locked into a career path or something that I was passionate about because you had something in common and a shared sort of that's how I met her and like that's how I met everyone that I am with every single day is by like locking into this thing I was really passionate about which was music and I like met everybody that is still in my life today and it's all because like it's like you know it's like choosing yourself like not to sound cheesy but That's right.

1:25:55But you know what I mean? That's right. You start with choosing you and figuring out like, what are the things I like about me? Who do I want to be? What do I, what are the spaces I want to be in? And then you'll find yourself with like-minded people. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. My ex texted me on the death anniversary of my grandfather. We have not spoken in over a year. And he said, thinking of you today, you know who that's given? Fitz.

1:26:21How the fuck do I respond to that? The issue is I've been missing him lately. And you know who that sounds like? Olivia.

1:26:31I mean, I guess I would ask, why did you break up? Right. Sometimes we don't have context. Right? Because I don't know. Maybe you guys should be giving it another go. I don't know. It's hard to say. I feel like it's, you know, you don't want to make blanket statements of like, if you have an ex, they have to stay an ex. That may or may not be true. You know, my favorite scene in Scandal ever. Actually, every time I rewatch it, I have full body chills every time. You are back from standing in the sun with Jake. Yeah. And you are going, you're handling something. And you are, like, you're back as Olivia for the day.

1:27:09Okay, just for the day. And you're in a building and Fitz is leaving a room. And you guys make eye contact and your hands pass each other. It's like in a big rotunda with, like, marble floors, right? He's nearly touched. And I just remember it was with my best friend, Peyton. And we, because she, by the way, I would be remiss to not speak about my friends who also are obsessed with this show. Shout outs to the friends, the gladiators. Peyton used to wake up every morning before work to watch because she, when Olivia got kidnapped, she couldn't go to bed until Olivia wasn't kidnapped anymore. Oh my God.

1:27:45So she stayed up until 6am and then went into work. Oh my God. Yes. I do. I remember that scene. My favorite thing about that scene is the look on my face and on Tony Goldwyn's face after we pass each other. It's like not quite a smile, but a little bit of like a warmth and like a. Yeah, you can it's what's exciting is not even that the fingers touch, but like the space between the fingers. It's very well shot. Tangible. Very well directed. What is your favorite? Oh, let's see. I think Vermont is for lovers is an incredible Olet's episode that's when he comes to Vermont in the helicopter oh and Melly's like Charlotte where is my husband I think that's it yeah I think that is the episode that Ava DuVernay directed um and I remember when so she and I after that did the commercial for Apple there was like a huge Apple music commercial that we did during the Emmys with me and Mary J.

1:28:41Blige and Taraji P. Henson. And when we shot the commercial, Ava was like, now when we worked on Scandal, I remember you had like a side, like you had like a good side and a bad side. And I was like, oh no girl, like that's not me. And she was like, no, no, I remember. I remember specifically having all these conversations that there was a specific way I had to shoot you. And I was like, Ava, I don't know what you're talking about. And then she came back to me later that night and she was like, oh, I remember what it was. And I was like, what? She was like, you were pregnant and we couldn't show it.

1:29:04So we're like trying to shoot these love scenes of me and Tony Goldwyn making out, but we're shooting them like from here up, like bust up because we couldn't show my belly. It was insane. But yeah, that was the side we couldn't show was my belly. Were people like, what was it like working while pregnant? But and in the sense of like everyone was watching and like no one knew you were pregnant. I mean, you did after a moment because I was like hiding behind boxes and briefcases and chairs and lamps. It was really wild because I begged Shonda to make Olivia Pope pregnant. I was like, I'm going to be growing wider and wider.

1:29:41And I'm going to be like not doing an Olivia Pope walk strut down the hallway. I'm going to be like waddling down hallways. It's going to be so weird. And she was like, you have to figure it out. Like Olivia Pope cannot be pregnant. She was like, I love that. Like she was so supportive of my pregnancy, literally jumped up and down in my trailer when I told her she was so happy for me, threw me the best baby shower ever. Like she was just an incredible boss around that issue. Um, but she was like, Olivia Pope can't be pregnant. I'm so sorry for both my pregnancies. And, um, and I didn't really understand it at the time, but when I became a mom, I got it because Olivia Pope is like a superhero.

1:30:18She's always the most powerful, most confident, like despite the rooms where she's occasionally made vulnerable by fits, she is a superhero. And there is an inherent vulnerability. in becoming a mom where suddenly your heart is walking outside your body and especially for being the mother of a black child where your heart is outside your body and vulnerable to all these systems that your child is up against and I got it I was like that's why Olivia Pope can't be a mom because she can't be that vulnerable for anybody in any circumstance other than Fitz right yeah wow it was really an intense realization for me and was it ever like hard to do like night shoots while like you were like i mean i i often were we often worked 16 hour days at scandal i mean it was really we worked really long days so we tried to toward the end of my pregnancies keep it to like 13 hour days 12 13 hour days um but yeah i worked all the way through and i refused to be out of my heels i was like i can't walk in flats i'm so i remember my doctor was like take off the heels i was like no yeah no do you know who i am Yeah, exactly.

1:31:27It's my name on that door. So I can't. Yeah, I really I I were I did. I worked through my pregnancies and I really it taught me a lot. It taught me how to take cat naps, you know, like because you're so tired. And but it was great. It was really I had a working mom growing up and I really respect working moms. I respect staying at home moms, too. But I I really I enjoyed I think I enjoyed my pregnancies more because I was working and getting to spend my time with the people that I love. love the most right yeah I totally forgot to ask you we both grew up in New York yes you grew up what where in the Bronx did you grow up so I grew up Central East Bronx like near Castle Hill Park Chester not far from where Jennifer Lopez grew up actually we went to the same boys and girls club wasn't she a substitute dance teacher for you she was what was that like so we both had this beloved dance teacher named Larry Maldonado that we loved loved loved and Jennifer is just a little bit older than me so she was in like the big girls group and when larry got sick and went to the hospital um she used to teach so she was like 16 17 and i was like 9 or 10 and she was teaching these classes and i so i you would think i was a better dancer since i learned to dance from j-lo but she was an incredible teacher wow and when you were talking about the choreographed dance scandal were you talking about when olivia gets kidnapped when you're looking at jake and you're like dance with me no that one we just freestyled but the episode that i directed was um katie had just quinn had just had the baby and there's a scene where she and papa pope i think are like dancing in a living room i vaguely remember this i don't remember season seven but i know that yeah yeah so there's like a dance in a living room right it's like an electric slide vibe i remember that yeah i remember that was debbie allen and you went to spence i did wow and so what train did you take to school?

1:33:20I took the number six. Okay. On the six, like Jennifer Lopez, all the way to Gwyneth Paltrow world at Spence. And do you, do you keep in touch with anyone? I do. I mean, I, I have to say both of those women, cause I knew them obviously in very different contexts, but both Gwyneth Paltrow and Jennifer Lopez have been extraordinarily supportive throughout my career. Um, and just like real guides and just like friendly and kind. I mean, just recently, because Gwyneth is like the queen of wellness and all the things, and I was like, you need to introduce me to this doctor. This was like two weeks ago.

1:33:53So she put me on a text with this doctor and was literally like, this is my friend Carrie. I've known her since she was in the seventh grade. When she was a senior in high school, I was in the middle school. I was in the seventh grade. And so we did one play together because the year that she was a senior, she played Queen Titania in Midsummer Night's Dream, and the middle schoolers were allowed to audition to be the fairies in Midsummer. So I was a fairy the year that she was doing an senior. And also we had an acapella group. I think we still have an acapella group at Spence called Triple Trio.

1:34:22And so I was going into high school. To audition for Triple Trio, the exiting seniors were at the audition. So I auditioned for her to get into Triple Trio. We never sang together on Triple Trio, but I had to audition for her. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I feel like, do you remember like any of the spots around Spence that you would go to that are still there? I don't know how many of them are still there. I feel like Jackson Hole closed that, I'm not sure, is Jackson Hole still there on 91st? There's a few locations, but I don't know if that one is still there. But Jackson Hole was our main hangout. And then, I mean, we used to walk around, I used to go to the Met all the time when I was really depressed, because I love museums.

1:35:07but also we just like used to walk around the corner to Nightingale if we were smoking because we wanted if people if we were smoking we wanted people to think we were Nightingale girls not Spence girls so we would get in trouble. Cigarettes, weed, both. Yes. Yes. Wow okay so I was in high school during like the vaping era. Oh wow. So no one knew what so we could do it in school and I would go to the bottom floor. At Calhoun. At Calhoun. The big tv school. The big yes. no walls we had no walls so i did a summer i did a summer study course at calhoun and it was like columbia university had a summer studies program in american studies but we did it at calhoun and i was like this is such an interesting place and so were you like such a good school it's great but were you like how how do you focus how did you focus so you actually don't i i remember they were like this is going to teach you how to drown out um white noise obviously it didn't but like i have some of the i actually recently just went to my high school advisory reunion last week oh my gosh that's so sweet my my english teacher was my advisor i pray that my kids have the kind of like warm feelings about the places that they go to school that i have about spence i just remember there was something about kind of growing up in New York.

1:36:26I don't know if it was to New York, but there was almost like this respect thing with teachers and students that was like, I'm going to see you as like capable of making adult, mature decisions. Yes. And like, I'm going to respect you based on that. Yes. An inherent respect. Like we weren't treated like infants. We were treated like young people, but people, you know, people who were learning. And I feel like the kinds of educations that we got are so special because I wasn't just taught facts. We were taught how to learn. We were taught how to be curious, how to be inquisitive, how to absorb information and process it.

1:37:01So there's just a different way of engaging, even with something like Scandal. I hear the way you talk about it, the way you see it, the way you take in the big picture. I love your mind. I love your mind. Well, Carrie, what did we learn today? We learned that I am obsessed with you and adore you. And I'm very grateful for you and how much you love our show. And I just love everything you do. I just think you are incredible. Thank you. And we learned that Dubelé is real. Dubelé is real. I'm Googling like 94 Dubelé. They're like, so actually, Shonda Rhimes made that up. Obsessed. But Dubelé, the actual wine is real.

1:37:40That's so cool. I have, would you, okay. You can say no. Okay, thanks. Would you? Because you're making me nervous. Read something as Olivia Pope. I can try. You don't have to. It's been a while. It's been a while, but I can try. Okay, cool. I would say no to most people, but for you, I feel like I have to. Is it from the script? No. Oh. It is the lyrics to Man Child by Sabrina Carpenter. Well, that's better. I love Sabrina Carpenter. Just, you know, maybe like verse one into the end of the chorus. Literally in the car this morning, there was another artist on the radio, and I was like, oh, she has Sabrina Carpenter vibes.

1:38:18And my daughter was like, oh, I hear that. My son was like, no way. We had this whole argument about who knows Sabrina Carpenter more. And I was like, I saw her live, babe. And my son was like, yeah, but you only went because Gracie wanted to go. And I was like, no, I want to go first. And then anyway, so we had a whole Sabrina Carpenter morning. So this is perfect.

1:38:35Into right there. No, like if you, no, you have to read it. Okay, go, go, go, go, go, go. Give me some context. So I would say you are talking to Fitz. Okay, I'm talking to Fitz. That's helpful. And he has fucked up. Okay. and we're done and he's fucked up in a sense that it hasn't hurt you okay like directly okay but you're like this is not the person I fell in love with okay good if we do a scandal movie can I submit you to direct because that was fierce direct acting score I would love to be an OPA intern amazing okay here we go

1:39:16I'm gonna try you said your phone was broken just forgot to charge it whole outfit you're wearing god I hope it's ironic did you say you're finished didn't know we started it's all just so familiar baby what do you call it

1:39:41I wish I had a hat A white hat to wear. I almost got one and then I forgot. I was just too excited. But also it wouldn't fit over the pony. So it's okay. And I would just like to say. Yes. This might go down as my all time favorite therapist episode. The 100th episode. Living legend. Kerry Washington. You're so sweet. Can I. Before you close. Will you read the second verse as Olivia? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Because I feel like you're so much closer to her right now. It'll help me. Yeah. You're Fitz responding. I'm Fitz. Yeah, you're responding now. Why so sexy?

1:40:19Wait, hold on, hold on. Take a moment. Take your time. Take your time. It's not easy. Why so sexy if so dumb? And how survive the earth so long? Yeah. If I'm not there, it won't get done. I choose to blame your mom, Maya Pope. Man child. Man child. Why are you always coming running to me? Yes. Fuck my life. Won't you let an innocent woman be, or in this case, the president? Never heard of self-care. Half your brain just isn't there. He would never say that to Olivia. Yeah. Man child, why are you always coming running? Taking all my loving from me. Good. Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, Harry Washington.

1:41:16Thank you so much. So just give a bye pussies. Bye pussies. It's handled.

1:41:31Ugh, I hate Mondays. King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Swirl Bite? Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm. Mmm. Hey, let's get back to work, please. But Taylor Hanson's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. Taylor Hanson? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

1:41:54King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.