340. Rethinks: Why the Conversations You Avoid Cost You the Most

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1:22The conversations we most want to avoid are often the ones we most need to have. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. When I first spoke with Jen Nguyen, I learned so much about what makes difficult conversations challenging and how we can approach them more effectively. Her advice on managing our emotions and finding common ground is worth revisiting. So we're bringing it back for all of you. And this time, we're sharing the extended version of our conversation.

1:56Enjoy. Often the things we really want are on the other side of a difficult conversation. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm really looking forward to speaking with Jennifer Wynn. Jen is a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, where she's taught a class on difficult conversations for nearly 10 years. Previously, she was the director of education at the Obama Foundation. Additionally, Jen hosts the High Note podcast and runs a consultancy focused on organizational transformation, change leadership, and repair.

2:36Welcome, Jen. I'm really excited for our conversation. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, Matt. I'm excited to be here with you and the listeners, which include my executive MBA students. Yes, absolutely. Well, shall we get started? Yes. So you teach a course on difficult conversations, and I'm curious, what makes conversations so difficult? Is it the topic, the emotions, the circumstances? Where's the difficulty come from? I want to say all of the above, but at the core, it's the emotions. It's the emotional reactivity. So a quick way to think about this in my first class of the difficult conversations course that I teach, I ask folks to call out topics that are difficult for them to discuss.

3:15And while they're calling it out, I'm typing the list into the slide deck. And we very quickly not only fill the page with topics, but then you come to see that what's really difficult for one person is not that difficult for someone else. And in fact, some people enjoy it. So a topic like negotiations will terrify someone. I don't want to negotiate my salary or getting a promotion or negotiating fees with a client and someone else will say, oh, I love a good negotiation. Let me take your negotiation on for you or saying no when a team member or direct report wants extra resources or a loved one asks you for help and you've got to say no.

3:56And it's so interesting because not only are people really unique, even idiosyncratic, it shows you that what makes a conversation difficult is much less the topic and much more the inner experience that each person is having. And so effective communicators, effective leaders know that they've got to be self-aware of that inner experience that they're having in the moment. When I say inner experience, I mean what you're thinking and feeling, but not saying out loud. And what that makes you realize is if I can be aware in the moment that I'm triggered, then I can pause. I can recenter. I can regulate my nervous system and that way I'll be able to choose a better response.

4:39And I say to my students, your nervous system goes with you into every single difficult conversation. So if you can pause and regulate your nervous system, then you're going to be a better version of yourself at the time when you most need to be the best version of yourself. So the implication of all of that is self-awareness and emotional intelligence are essential for leading difficult conversations to productive outcomes. So we really have to reflect on our own experience before we can actually be present and engage in the conversation. And I think the point you made about difficult conversations aren't the same for everyone.

5:18And in fact, we need to appreciate that. So it's really appreciating your own experience and the emotions you're feeling and finding a way to get yourself grounded and be centered and prepared before you go in. Yes, and open to hearing and understanding the other person's inner experience. Because if I happen to be the one who loves negotiations, but I'm sitting across from the person who's terrified by negotiations, I need to have the emotional intelligence to be aware of their inner state and help them manage that. And at the end of the day, the goal is for all members of the dialogue to move away from emotional reactivity towards choice.

5:57I want to choose the better, more strategically path, not the reaction that came out of an emotional trigger. It's more choicefulness. So it sounds to me like one of the key elements or a couple of the key elements of managing difficult conversations first starts with self-awareness, being other aware and accepting doesn't mean agreeing, but accepting. And it sounds almost like there's an invitation involved where you're inviting the other person to share their inner experience so that you can meet them and then ultimately make choices in a choiceful way. Are there particular strategies or tactics people can use to help bring out that information in someone?

6:40Yes. So we'll start with that self awareness piece since it is the foundation. I tell my students, if you only remember one framework from this entire course, please remember self-awareness, pause, reframe. Okay. Self-awareness, pause, reframe. So what does that mean? In the moment, am I aware of my physical cues, my cognitive and emotional cues that let me know I'm triggered? I'm heated up in this moment, right? So for me, I get a lump in my throat or like a tightness in my chest. Some people get butterflies in their stomach. I'm curious, what is it for you, Matt? So I resonate totally with the tight chest.

7:19When I'm ready for battle or feel like battle's coming, My whole chest gets tight. Yes. So each one of us think in advance, what's my tell sign, right? And once I know that, the moment I see it, I know I've got to pause. And then here's the best thing. If I know my pause techniques, if I know what helps me metabolize my hormones, get that adrenaline out of my system, really regulate my nervous system, then I can be back to my center self. So a go-to pause technique for me is to imagine myself with my best friend, Carla. Then I'm at ease, I'm centered. And that is our goal, that we lead these conversations to a productive outcome, both for the content, the matter at hand, and for the relationship.

8:01So that last step, reframe, is where I actually shift away from viewing this conversation as a threat to something I care about, and instead perceiving it as a learning opportunity. What good information can I get out of this? So self-awareness, pause, reframe is a framework I always ask my students to remember. I really like the taking the time to check in with yourself, both how am I feeling emotionally but physically, and use the physical as a trigger to help you. Pausing is wonderful. I love that you rely on a friend. I have a place I go to in my mind. There is a particular tree in Sydney, Australia, that faces the opera house and the Harbor Bridge.

8:41And when I get worked up, if I just envision that and what I felt like when I saw it, it's my place of zen. That really helps calm me down. And then this notion of reframing from one of threat to one of learning, one of collaboration, one of imitation. One of my colleagues, Michelle Gelfin, likes to say, mind your metaphors. And the metaphor you bring to the interaction helps determine how it's going to be. So if I see it as a learning opportunity, this difficult conversation is going to go very differently than if I see it as a battle. So I really appreciate that. Share with us some of the other tips you have, especially if there are particular barriers that get in the way to doing this.

9:15Some of the most common barriers I see are not having the conversation at all. I'd say a second one, not having a goal. And a third, I'd say not listening enough. Often when we don't have the conversation, it's because we assume it will go poorly. So we give up before we've even started. But here's the thing. Most things that we want in life are on the other side of a difficult conversation. Sometimes it's a difficult conversation with myself. Sometimes it's a

9:45boss. But a lot of those things that we really want and we've been longing for and haven't gotten yet are going to require us to get to the other side of a difficult conversation. So are you just going to give up on your biggest dreams in life because you weren't willing to take the time to step out of your comfort zone and practice a skill? Because that's the thing, you know this, Matt, communication is a set of skills, learnable, growable skills. And difficult communication is a set of hard but worth it skills. The authors of Crucial Conversations say often we view difficult conversations in a bit of a fool's choice, a false binary.

10:25We think either I'm gonna go have this conversation, I'm gonna say the truth and it's gonna wind up ruining the relationship or I better just bite my tongue and not say what I'm really thinking even though it's really important to me and that way I'll save the relationship. but choosing between telling the truth and having an important relationship, that's a false choice. Really, there's a middle way where I'm honest without the emotional reactivity, without that charge, because I've taken the time to center myself. And because I've had this conversation from such a centered place, and I've done it so respectfully and curiously about what you're feeling and experiencing as well, I actually wind up strengthening the relationship and the understanding between us such that the next time around, we're able to have more truth, more honesty in our difficult conversations.

11:19And we're able to solve some of the hardest challenges in ways that we're really proud of. We invite that collaboration and future success. It is important to remember that these difficult conversations are one of many conversations that we will likely have with these people or in this environment. So we're not only trying to come to a mutually agreed to resolution in the short term for this situation, but we're setting ourselves up for the future and the next one. You mentioned listening, and that's a skill that my wife is still encouraging me to work on. I'm curious, how do you help your students to be better listeners in these difficult conversations?

11:58Yes. So sometimes the issue is not listening enough, And sometimes it's not showing that we are listening. So those are two distinct skill sets. At the end of the day, I think about dialogue as the free flow of meaning. And so if I've done it well, effective dialogue grows the shared pool of understanding between us. I understand how you made meaning of a situation and you understand how I made meaning of a situation. So that means that I've got to inquire. I've got to ask enough questions to understand how you experienced that. that client meeting, that argument my husband and I may have had.

12:35And then once I've listened, internalized the meaning you made, I've got to paraphrase it back as a check for my understanding. A real humble attempt to say, this is my summary of what I think you experienced, but is that right? Fix what I'm missing. Is it half right and I missed the other half? And once we can paraphrase, this is a skill that honestly, I think it's like punching above its weight, right? After I've taken all this time to really ask these open, thoughtful questions, get curious, understand your perspective, make sure you show the person that you are internalizing what they said.

13:13And like you said, it's not agreeing. It's just acknowledging. And when they finally say, yes, that's it, then you've grown the shared pool of understanding, at least from their perspective. And then you can go share yours. And that's where you move into advocacy. But at the end of the day, the balance you're looking for is inquiry, paraphrasing, and advocacy. And inquiry and paraphrasing are listening skills, both to understand what the other person experienced and confirm with them that my understanding was correct of their experience. And the advocacy skills, the talking one, right? That's essentially a two-thirds, one-third ratio.

13:47And I don't mean it as an exact science, but I did have a student say to me one time, oh, so that's why my parents said you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. A lot more listening and confirming that I understood you correctly from your perspective before I dive into sharing mine. I like your definition of listening as seeking shared understanding. And when you take that approach, it definitely puts you in a place of being present, of being humble, because you're checking maybe I didn't get it right in leveraging what I think is one of the most powerful communication skills, which is paraphrasing because it does so much for us.

14:29I really appreciate that approach. Hi, Matt here. One thing I've learned is that having a strong idea is only part of the work. You also have to help people understand why it matters to them. Before an important conversation, I ask myself, who am I talking to? What do they care about? And how can I make my message relevant to them. That kind of practical learning is what I appreciate about Masterclass. You can explore more than 200 classes or go deeper with a Masterclass certificate course focused on a specific professional skill. I recommend strategic communication, build trust, drive decisions, lead with influence.

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16:21Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Upwork.com. I want to give you a tricky communication situation that people ask me to help with. how do you give your boss or someone higher up in the hierarchy critical, constructive feedback? So they clearly have the power and status, but there's something that they're doing that bothers you. Maybe it's offensive. Maybe they're ignoring something. That's a tricky, difficult conversation. How would you advise, or if I were a student asking you this question, what would you say?

17:04Yeah. So power dynamics definitely can make difficult conversations more difficult. So hopefully we've prepared in a way that sets us up for success. So what do I mean by that? Hopefully we've actually decided in advance with our manager, boss, the higher up colleague, that we are going to have two-way feedback with each other for the purpose of achieving our team goals and growing as professionals. And since it's been contextualized as a gift that we're giving each other for our professional growth, hopefully we're ready to share and they're ready to receive. Even if we haven't had a chance to do that prep though, there's still the opportunity to extend that invitation, as you've said, and to connect this conversation to a shared goal.

17:49So great communicators know to tailor to their audiences, right? If it's my boss, what can I imagine safely that they care about? The success of our team and the accomplishment of our goals. So if I can tie this dialogue to those shared goals, it is more likely that they will accept my invitation. And particularly if I ask them if now is a good time or when would be a better time, right? So I've tailored it to my audience's motivations, what my boss cares about, and also to their schedule when they're in the right place to receive it. That's the emotional intelligence part. Once I've gotten the green light to go on ahead and share, then I want to go back to growing that shared pool of understanding.

18:30So on the advocacy side, on the part where I'm speaking for myself with clarity and confidence, I want to make it clear that there's an observable piece of what I'm sharing. I observed a certain behavior from them. I'm not speaking about their character. It's just an action that happened at one point in time. And I saw it, I heard it, and I'm sharing that. And then here's the invisible piece of information, the impact that it had on me, right? And so once I've shared the observable information and the impact that it had on me, I've now given you my perspective and maybe I add some more meaning that I've made from it, the conclusions that I draw about the impact it'll have or what led to that, the conditions that created that situation.

19:13But nonetheless, I recognize that it's my perspective and I say that. I say, but that's only one perspective. I'm really curious about yours. And that's when I ask a question about how they experienced that situation. What's similar? What's different? What am I missing? And now that I've grown the shared pool of understanding around both of our perspectives, now I can invite us to co-create some solutions that could address the gap in how this impacted us and where we really want to get ultimately, which is our goals. And at that point, you've shifted from you versus me to us versus the problem, right?

19:50Now we're partners in creating a solution that addresses the gap or the difference between where we are and where we want to be to hit our goals. Taking the time to really understand what's important and relevant to the manager or the person in power so that you can tailor your message to be connected to it, I think is so important. We often fixate so much on what we want. We don't think about the broader perspective. and I love how you incorporated the invitation idea in there as well. And questions I think are a powerful way to do this by asking questions rather than making declarations. One other thing I recommend and I'd love to get your take on this.

20:31In situations where I have to share something difficult, often I have found personally and those I coach have found value in this, reinforcing positive outcomes. So if let's say I have a manager who tends to interrupt people when they're speaking, rewarding a time when they didn't interrupt as a way of, one, encouraging them to continue that or opening the door. Hey, it was really helpful when Jen got through everything she was trying to say. She brought up some really important points there. I appreciate you allowing for that space as a way of saying, hey, stop interrupting without saying it.

21:08So I'm curious if that's an approach you've advised or taken. Yes. So progress and positive impact are some of the biggest motivators for anyone, especially us professionals, right? So if you can tell me the positive behaviors and the positive impact, it's absolutely going to motivate me. And I would use that after I've had a constructive feedback session. So when I see the person go implement some of the ideas we co-created, I immediately follow up and say, oh, wow, we had just spoken about that yesterday and you implemented that right away. And I saw that it really lifted the team's morale or whatever the positive impact is.

21:48Thank you so much. It had a tremendous impact. You know, something that reaffirms all of that effort and time that we put into understanding each other's perspectives and making the situation better has paid off. I will say there's something else you're making me think about, Matt. You are contrasting, right? You're contrasting the desired behavior from the undesirable behavior. And that reminds me that there's a contrasting technique that I'll often recommend to folks who have a hard time saying the hard things. And that is contrast what your intention is not versus what your intention is. Because intentions are invisible, right?

22:29So we've got to state it. So you might say to a boss, normally, I've got such praise and great things to say that I have to admit I'm a bit nervous to share this constructive feedback, But my intention is not to be disrespectful or forget all of the amazing things that you've already done for our team. Instead, my intention is out of such respect for who you are as a professional and the leader I know you to be, to share this one piece of information that I think might take us to the next level. Highlighting intention, I think, is incredibly important. We make assumptions and calling that out and sharing what this is not is as important as what this conversation is.

23:15Many people listening know that at one point I was a tour guide in college. And one of the things that was impressed upon us is it's important to tell your audience where you're going so their expectations are set, but also let them know where you're not going. And the same is true in a conversation. I'd like to turn our conversation to a different topic. I know you are likely getting similar questions to me with artificial intelligence, AI coming into things. How do you envision that AI could actually help us with some of these tricky communication situations? Yes, I have seen several of my students find some really great uses for AI.

23:49So I'll give some examples. Sometimes I have a student who wants to work on their tone. They've received feedback that their tone is getting in the way of their message being received. And so they'll type in what they want to say and say, make that tone more friendly or make that tone more respectful and get a sense for what some other language, some other word choice might be to help them still deliver an authentic message, but in a way that can be heard. So that's one interesting way. I think another is coming up with perspectives that I haven't considered, right? Here's the problem I'm dealing with.

24:25What other perspectives could there be? Or here's my take. And then recently I had a student really enjoy the role plays that we did in class, but not have someone back in her apartment to role play with. And she actually asked ChatGPT to role play with her, which I thought was such a cool idea. And I just think at the end of the day, we have to keep in mind that this is one perspective based on whatever data this particular LLM has been trained on and not take it as the final word, but just more options. practice for these situations can be so important as with any communication and using a tool to do that.

25:01And I really like this idea of having a tool help you see what other wording can affect tone in a way that you might not see. I like that a lot. As someone who used to run corporate education programs, I was a learning and development head for a long time. And I know you did something very similar. I'm curious to learn about your experiences running the learning organization for the Obama Foundation. What communication practices did you use in crafting and delivering the programs and messages that you did? Yeah, the Obamas are amazing, not only leaders, but storytellers. And they believe deeply in values-based leadership and values-based storytelling.

25:39So while I already knew as a communicator that connection was important, I hadn't understood prior to my time at the Obama Foundation how values and the origins of our values, the stories about where our values come from can really help us connect with others, especially across lines of difference. And so it's not to say that we have to have the same values, but instead, when I tell a story about the grandparent who role modeled responsibility, and when someone else tells a story about the parent who role modeled hard work, even though our particular lived experiences could be really different.

26:21And we were connecting with leaders not only all across the United States, all across the political aisle, but around the globe. So our lived experiences were really different in any given room. The human part of where our values came from and to whom we were trying to uphold the good things that they taught us and shown us enabled such tremendous connection and understanding despite the huge differences or the seeming differences in the room. So I learned a lot about not only storytelling, which we know the importance of, but values-based storytelling in enabling connection. And I think the other piece is the power of role modeling vulnerability.

27:10So as we designed these training programs, I reached a point where I said, you know, I've asked these community leaders to share so much about themselves. Who am I to ask you to share and not share myself? And so I started to go first. And once I did that and role modeled a deep commitment to bravely sharing and being vulnerable, it really enabled deeper vulnerability and ultimately deeper connection. So I've learned a lot from my time at the foundation. Really grateful for it. So values and vulnerability and the power of storytelling. Really, I think we all need to think about where our values come from and what our stories around those values are.

27:52And sharing those can certainly be connective. I want to step out and make an observation that by you being willing to go first and express your vulnerability, one, takes a lot of courage and I appreciate that. But I also think what you're doing in a message for many leaders is that you are in that role modeling, you are anchoring expectations and helping people see what's possible. And a lot of times leaders either don't want to be vulnerable or don't want to go first. And yet it can serve a really powerful purpose to do that. And I appreciate you sharing that. That type of anchoring can really invite and make it safer for others because they see it's possible.

28:31So thank you. Like me, you host a podcast, one that I enjoy very much. I'm curious to learn how you balance your inquiry to challenge your guests without turning your interviews into challenging conversations. In other words, how do you put your audience at ease enough to have the deep, meaningful conversations that you have? So on the High Note podcast, we're talking about how people healed from some really tough stuff. You know, childhood trauma, loss of loved ones, disease, goodness, toxic relationships, you name it. And so before I ask them to share about some of the toughest moments in their lives, I start by surprising them with three things that I love about them.

29:15And so this is not in the agenda that I send them ahead of time. But when we sit down to chat, I let them know three elements of who they are that I absolutely love. And it's amazing to see how not only pleasantly surprised they are, which is just a nice moment of pure joy and connection, but also to see how once they feel seen as a whole person and in a strengths-based and affirming way, they become more generous in what they share. And the conversations go deeper and I learned such amazing insights because they've really let down any walls or any pretense and just shared from the heart. And it's been a beautiful gift to see how powerful asset-based framing is.

30:05And I've brought that over into my classes. So for difficult conversations and for the other courses I teach, in the very beginning, in the first session, I'll ask folks to gather up in trios and do an exercise that I call at your best. And so they'll share in trios times they were at their best during a difficult conversation. And then the feedback that they give one another is strengths-based. So this action that you took had a tremendously positive impact. Do that again. Or wow, I'm really impressed how you shifted your mindset right there in the middle of being triggered. And now I'm going to go do that as well.

30:41And students say that they not only feel seen after that exercise, but that the classroom environment is more psychologically safe and enables them to be more brave in the rest of the course. I love that as an opening activity. I'm going to borrow it, if you don't mind, to have people think about in my course, a time where they were able to communicate strategically in a way that was successful and then to get that positive affirmation. I really like this idea of leading with connection. You sharing the three things that you really appreciate about the person is a way of connecting and saying, I see you, I know you and I respect you.

31:19And that opens up the door to perhaps more challenging or deeper conversations. Thank you for that. Well, as you know, as someone who listens to the podcast, I end every episode with three questions. One, I make up just for you and two, I ask everybody, are you ready for that? I think so. Yes, you're going to do great. I'm going to ask you the unfair question that I always get asked because I'll be curious about your answer. So people will often ask me, what's the one thing I can do to improve my communication? As if there is one magic key. But I'm asking you this question because I hope it gives you an opportunity to talk about something that we haven't talked about, because we've talked about a lot of really deep, meaningful communication bits of advice.

31:58Know your audience, know yourself, paraphrase. Is there something that we haven't covered that you think is important? Practice. At the end of the day, the goal is not perfection. It doesn't exist. The goal is continual improvement. I want to keep getting better and better. And so the way to do that, of course, like any muscle building activity is practice. And so I really do not only create a lot of practice opportunities for my students in class, but I give them ideas of how they might continue practicing after the class is over. and my suggestion is to make it a little more challenging each time.

32:37So start with the low stakes day-to-day stuff. When you're chatting with your roommate, ask a few more questions than you might have otherwise asked so that you build that inquiry muscle. But then when you have a disagreement with a colleague, if you think this might actually make a difference if I shared this one perspective, try out stating your intention, sharing your perspective, and then asking for a greater understanding on their perspective. And as we continue to have more and more repetition, right, as we build in the reps, we're not only going to build the muscle, which feels good, but then it's going to be ready for us to flex when the moment counts.

33:13When we're in the most consequential conversation, we will have already built up those great question asking muscles, those great paraphrasing muscles, those great intention stating muscles, and so on and so forth. So practice, practice, practice, and make it a little more challenging each time along the way. And I think that's absolutely dead on. We have to practice. I'll be curious to hear your answer. Who's a communicator you admire and why? Michelle Obama. Her authenticity is palpable. When she is sharing, it's not only real and true for her and others in the room, it's the heart of the matter.

33:49She's not being authentic about things on the fringe. she's getting to that piece that lands in the pit of my stomach that I may not have had the courage to share and she's has so many great quotes one of which is courage is contagious and I feel that in her presence or when I'm watching a speech of hers and then of course her ability to connect she's fantastic at connection through relatable storytelling and humor and I've seen that in her most casual and impromptu moments and in her prepared speeches It's just a part of who she is. Courage is contagious. Really profound, actually. And connection and the ability to connect.

34:30Storytelling is a key tool for that. All right. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? Audience, intent or goal, and listening. We've already spoken about the importance of knowing where the other person is at and how to meet them where they are at. right? Emotionally during that time of day or in their schedule, what matters most to them, understanding how to create a shared goal, right? Which goes into the second piece. And then the last piece, you might've thought it'd be something around know what your message is or be clear on what your message is.

35:10But the reason I think it's listening is because if I'm really growing the shared pool of understanding, if I'm really hearing your perspective and understanding it to a level that I didn't understand before, I may actually have a new idea, right? I've heard the quote, dialogue is the birthplace of synergy. Your information and the way you made meaning of that information might create not just a new perspective within me, but a new meaning making, a new understanding of what matters most and therefore what I most want to drive home. So audience, intent or goal and listening. So audience and intent and listening.

35:52Jen, this has been a fantastic conversation. You have equipped me and hopefully our listeners with many tools they can use and you have certainly increased our shared understanding and meaning. Thank you for joining us and thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. This was fun. Thank you for joining us for this extended Rethinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Among the many ideas Jen shared, the one that stands out to me is that difficult conversations often become difficult because of what's happening inside us, not just what's needing to be said. By recognizing when we're emotionally triggered and taking a moment to pause, we can respond more thoughtfully rather than simply react.

36:32Sometimes that pause can make all the difference. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. Please share our show with your friends, family, and co-workers. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show.

37:10If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.