Can an AI Agent Legally Own a Company? Christian van der Henst's Wild Experiment| E2283

26:41Right. So this ensures that all of the data, you know, that you're actually using inside of the virtual machine is completely encrypted. So, you know, we have some exciting products coming. I won't spoil it, you know, here in the next month. Feel free to spoil it right here. We're not live or anything. So, you know, it's a great time. But we'll be releasing this here at Proof of Talk in Paris in the Louvre, this hardware product. But we want to be able to bring this type of technology to the masses and also kind of flip the current computing paradigm on its head where, you know, if you're a consumer right now, it's very hard to run a home lab at your house just because it costs a whole lot.

27:23And, you know, 80 % of the time, you're maybe not utilizing that computer. So yeah. So talk to me about pricing here. Because one thing we've discussed on Twist a lot over the last couple years is the scale of demand for AI compute. It's impacting startups, hyperscalers, everyone in technology. So I presume that the competition on price is relatively robust. So where does Targon's aggregated compute compared to the market in terms of both efficiency and price? Yeah. So right now, the way that we have it set up is basically we have a sort of our target system. So we know how many GPUs we can utilize at any given time.

27:59And so we establish these targets. So if you actually go to stats.targon.com, it has all the information about the actual subnet itself, like how many cards are online, the prices for those cards, the historical prices and whatnot. And what you can actually see is that GPU prices are, we have these sort of caps in place. We want to be able to uncap these prices to let the market actually define it. So we'll transition from a sort of auction system to an order book system. But this allows us, essentially we're completely sold out on our GPUs right now in terms of the utilization. We're trying to get more GPUs, but it's actually very hard right now.

28:40Who's using it? Like describe some of the customers. And obviously you don't know what their jobs are, because as you explain, they're encrypted. They go out, you do the job, you give the result. But who's using these GPUs and why would somebody put the GPU here instead of like deploying it as part of the Azure cloud, etc.? A lot of our customers right now are sort of traditional Web2 AI businesses. Many of them are located in the Bay Area. We also have a lot of inside of BitTensor as well. So like, for example, you know, maybe we can touch on this a little bit later, but one of my side projects I'm working on right now, it's not necessarily a side project, but we have a subnet five as well called Hone.

29:25So we also give rent compute to miners so that then they can participate in these permissionless training runs and so on and so forth. And so I actually think that prices should go up on Tarkon. Some people on my team think prices should go down. But there's such a constraint on compute right now. If you're fully utilized, meaning that everyone's renting the GPUs at the current prices that are set, then you should raise the prices to where it's like an 80 % utilization. But then why do you have caps, though, Robert? That's my question, because you mentioned earlier you have caps, you want to take them off.

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31:15There is these payouts that occur. And so we and because those payouts are happening permissionlessly, we have to make sure that, you know, someone doesn't come and flood the market for three hours and mess things up. Right. Also, we need to ensure that our pricing is high enough to be able to incentivize more of this compute to come. Now, the thing is, is that most of the compute build out that is happening is not happening with the mom and pop data centers, right? So, you know, we're trying to allow, for example, Google Cloud and Azure nodes to be able to onboard. I know people laugh at the mom and pop data center.

31:52I've never heard someone say mom and pop data center. Usually that refers to someone's like bodega, not a data center that would cost millions or if not. Yeah. Like I would say that a mom and pop data center is probably like a 50, 100, 150 million dollar data center. Okay. You know, pedestrian numbers, Jason, just, you know, the usual 100 to 150 million mom and pop business. Well, so the thing is, is these nodes, one node costs$500 ,000. And you need a ton of these nodes to be able to actually perform training and inference, you know, actually inference is a much requires a lot more compute than training.

32:27Yeah, I mean, in terms of pricing, startups need to know what they're going to spend, and there is standard pricing. So having it be too variable, I think, would be a blocker for people utilizing it. They don't want to get surprised with the bill, unless the surprise was to the downside. So you could have a cap on the price, and you could say, hey, if it's underutilized, the lowest priced GPUs get used first, and we're going to route it there. So then people could say, hey, here's the rack rate. I'm willing to be 10 % lower than that. I mean, it could be dynamic. The permissionless piece of this is, of course, very important, Alex, because you don't need permission to provide your compute on Terragon.

33:09You don't need permission to use it. And you don't need permission to get paid or to pay, right? These things just happen as part of the system. So if you put your GPUs in there, you don't need to be approved. you have some sort of verifier that says, hey, we know what this system is when it's onboarded. So that's kind of the magic of these systems is there could be people, I don't know, from a communist country that have access to low-priced energy. They have some GPUs sitting around. Maybe they fell off a truck. Maybe there are extra ones at their university. And some hack ready university is like, you know, whether it's MIT or it's in Shanghai, just decides, I'm going to put a couple of these GPUs in here and make a little extra side money and it gets utilized.

33:58It's going to be very confounding to regulators in some cases. It's very much like the Bitcoin freedom gestalt. And that vibe, I think, is what's going to make it really successful is, you know, you don't need permission to join the network. There's no regulation. And that's also going to cause at some point, just like Bitcoin did, regulators to look at it and say, OK, let's make sure somebody is not using these GPUs to, I don't know, build the next COVID. And you would have no idea, Robert, if somebody was sending a job there and neither would the GPU provider. It's just done. Yeah, it's done completely confidentially.

34:42We wouldn't know. um but i will say that you know if for at least for on the data center side the cell for for providing to permissionless market it's it's much better than i think a lot of the other options out there right now in terms of trying to find demand targon in a way is distribution for data centers because you know oh well we have these nodes i'll give you a great example one of the data centers that we work with. They weren't able to get their B200. No, they purchased it last May. And they weren't able to get it online and actually earning any kind of money until January until we actually started interacting with them.

35:21And the reason why was because a lot of people purchase these machines and they think they're just going to plug it in. They have a sort of real estate model about it. They think of the GPU kind of like an apartment. And so they think, oh, well, I'll just buy this building. And then the apartment, it's pretty self-explanatory. the people are going to move in and make it their own. But these GPUs are actually, you know, very specialized, highly technical supercomputers that require very careful maintenance done to them. And so make it harder for you guys actually aggregate them because the more, you know, B200s you want great.

35:55Cause then you can have more total capacity at the cutting edge of what's, what's possible. But also like, as you go into these increasingly exotic chips that need more and more stuff built around them to function, doesn't that limit your minor base essentially to data centers larger than the mom and pops? Doesn't that kind of take away the decentralization element of this? So the benefit to the mom and pop is that what they want is they want that three-year contract at the$5 an hour rate, right? That's what they want. They're dreaming about it, right? They go to bed at night, think about this.

36:28But in the meantime, they're thinking, oh, well, I need to be making money today. so you can onboard your machines to targon it's permissionless there's no contract right you can pull it at any time you know there's no deposit there's nothing like that well so you could put your gpr gpus on to targon for a week two weeks a customer comes along that you can get it on a contract you can take those gpus off and so we're essentially a sort of buyer of last resort which which is great for us because it allows us to be able to utilize these gpus it's the same as if you had an extra home and you moved into your new home, you still have your existing home and you're like, can't find a buyer.

37:07I'm going to have it on Airbnb, which we literally did at the last home or two homes ago. And it was generating$100 ,000 in revenue a year. We weren't renting it that often, but it was a nice five bedroom home that cost$1 ,500,$2 ,000 a night. So there weren't that many people who could use it in Airbnb. We had a three night minimum, but it added up very quickly covered the taxes on the place. The taxes on the place were$75 ,000 a year. So it was like, okay, at least we're not burning money with this thing. So it's a really great use case. Robert, continued success. We'll drop you off. If you're interested in Tau, I suggest following on x.com slash Mark Jeffrey.

37:44Really my partner on Stilcore Capital, which is looking at all these subnets. Here is Mr. Mark Jeffrey over on X, M-A-R-K-J-E-F-F-R-U-Y. We love Mark here at Twist. Jason, we have some news. Yep. Before we do that, I thought we would talk about the, just give people a quick summary of the bounties we currently have out in the market. Oh, there are two. Yeah, and we also, I think we have a poly market we need to get to. We do, but I want to make sure we get these bounties in the show so everyone knows what we're working on. This week, we added a second bounty. There's now two. The first one is our kind of real-time podcast companion.

38:17We've done a couple of demos on the show this week. Runs alongside Twist, gives different personas and kind of fact checks and commentates as we go. but people may know about the second one, Jason. So what do you have planned for annotated.com? Yeah. So I bought this domain name 15, 20 years ago. In fact, I bought it after I sold Weblogs, Inc., which did Engadget and Autoblog. I sold that to AOL. There was another service, Delicious, which everybody loved. They sold to Yahoo. Yahoo kind of deprecated it. I'm sure it doesn't exist now. But Delicious became a bit of a social network. It was kind of like a reverse dig.

38:49If you said, I want to keep this bookmark, you save it in your Delicious. You could have people follow your Delicious. So if you were Alex and you were really into heavy metal, you could have that tagged. You could have your heavy metal tracks and I could follow it. And then people could, if people followed it and added it to their bookmark collection, it would move up. Okay. So Annotated is a service that I wanted to create for the last 15 years. What I wanted to be able to do was highlight a paragraph somewhere, a New York Times story, a tweet, and then just give my comments on it. And so it was like a clipping service that would allow you to fact check something, debate something, and then make a very simple URL.

39:33So I didn't want to steal the whole New York Times story and then write a couple of comments under it or use the commenting system on the New York Times. I wanted, Alex and I are debating something. It's in the New York Times, the quote unquote paper of record. People debate that today, where it's in a TechCrunch story. I want to be able to highlight a quote I gave and then explain underneath it in a comment, hey, I'm annotated.com slash Jason slash New York Times slash here it is. And I'd say, I gave that quote, but here's the full quote I gave. I felt that was clipped or edited a bit, but I just want to give additional context.

40:11Now, Alex would come there. The journalist from the New York Times would come there, and they could actually have a discussion on that object. So my object would then create essentially a micro forum for that particular piece of content or news item. Correct. It would be a thread about that piece of content. But then YouTube became pretty big. So again, if you want to clip a YouTube clip, what do you have to do? Or a podcast clip? Some podcast players have the ability to clip a little bit. They're pretty kludgy. What I want to be able to do is you put in a YouTube video, you have an episode of a podcast, you say, hey, I want to debate this.

40:41I'll take and we're going to come up with a number like 90 seconds max or something and then downgrade the video file so it's in 280 or something. So it's not going to replace the original, put a watermark on it, link back to the original so nobody can complain. And then you add your commentary. You add your commentary about that video. Maybe it's a video response to the video or just some text. Then all of that would be able to train or feed LLMs. So that's the new wrinkle is we want to make this available to LLMs to say, hey, there's a debated fact check here or here's some commentary on this tweet, on this Instagram post, on this TikTok.

41:19So you go here, you go to annotated.com. If you build it, we're going to pick the best service and I want to put it into production. So we'll give$5 ,000 to the best product and that's it. Yep. If you want to take part in bounty number one, the real time podcast companion, the next demo day is May 8th here on the show. Final decision on May 11th. And we are going to do demos for annotated.com in this bounty on May 18th, Jason. So if you're paying attention to Twist, we're gonna have a lot of cool demos coming up. So get your cloud code warm, everybody. Did you see the news, Jason, that Anthropic was getting bids at$800 billion, but might actually raise at$900 billion in a next funding round?

41:59I did see some report that they were asking people to get their bids in in 48 hours. Yeah, which is crazy. So this raises a question. As we've seen the value of AI Labs scale dramatically, they're getting to the point in which they're beginning to become worth about as much as Bitcoin, whole cloth. And so the people over at Polymarket have put together what I think is the best market of all time. Will Anthropic flip Bitcoin by December 31st? Now, this is interesting because people are saying there's a 43 % chance. But you have to keep in mind, Bitcoin today, all the Bitcoin that's out there is worth$1.58 trillion, more or less.

42:42Anthropic might be worth$900 billion soon. So Anthropic would have to double, essentially, Jason, by the end of the year to pull off this bet. 43 % say yes. It's only a two-day-old market, so it's very nascent. Or Bitcoin would have to drop. Oh, spicy. Yeah. Quite a lot, though, Jason. Well, I mean, if Bitcoin dropped 20 % from here, it's trading at 78 or something. So it could easily drop 10 % because it was in the high 60s. So it could easily drop 10, and that would bring it from 1.5 trillion down to 1.3. And then if Anthropic then went from 900 billion to 1.3, that's a pretty big jump too. That's like a 50 % jump.

43:27So it's not double. It would be, you could see a scenario of a 20 % drop in Bitcoin, et cetera. I think Bitcoin might have, and I know somebody could wind up clipping this, but I think Bitcoin is so played out. I think everybody has like some exposure to it who would have wanted exposure by now that there's no incremental buyers of Bitcoin. And I think people have essentially ended the game of Bitcoin. now that it feels like there are so many other alternatives and on a functionality basis, there are tons of legal stable coins that make it easier to move money around at a lower cost. On the other side, if you're looking for something interesting, BitTensor and Tau and Solana feel much more interesting in terms of where the entrepreneurs are placing their bets and building things around it.

44:22And Bitcoin feels stale. And I said Bitcoin zero was a distinct possibility. And I said that when Bitcoin was at 10, 50K, everything in between. Why? Well, all technology eventually deprecates with very few exceptions we've seen in our lifetime. Like, yeah, sure. There are still people running systems on Fortran or something. There are still people running on mini computers here and there. But here's a CNBC article from Wednesday, January 24th, 2018. It says, quote, there's a 33 % chance that Bitcoin goes to zero. Yeah, so I do think that that's still something people should keep in mind. Now, I know it sounds crazy, but if there is a better system or a new game, if you're a speculator and you feel the game of Tau or the game of Solana is a more interesting game, more interesting energy there, why wouldn't you move half your Bitcoin over or a third of your Bitcoin over?

45:20That creates downward pressure. If you didn't have Michael Saylor trying to buy it all or get to 20 % ownership, I'm wondering what impact that would have on the price, right? He is like this, you know, consistent buyer and he's owns six or 7 % of the active Bitcoin. Like there's a certain percentage of our diagram. Anyways, a long way of saying I question the future of Bitcoin in terms of its relevancy to the public and the interest in the public, the relevancy to developers and using it as a platform. That's been out the window for many years. It doesn't really work as a platform. And then for moving money around, obviously, stable coins, better, faster, more integrated.

46:05So where is its audience coming from? Where is the incremental buyer of Bitcoin? Why would people start storing money in Bitcoin if it was a speculative tool? Let's just call it what it is. It was a game. People were gambling. And so I said this on Twitter. I left it up here. This is 2018 when it was trading at$3 ,700. It has had a hard time getting back to six figures. it could just trade just stay yeah it could just slowly deprecate over time without incremental buyers coming in um and then people just at some point need the money so you're a bitcoin holder and you're like i had a kid oh i've got some bills to pay i'm retiring i'm going to spend this money on my retirement so i do think we're going to be living in a post bitcoin world at some point where it's just like this memory of some interesting thing that occurred, you know, Atari 2600 or, you know, video games in, you know, stalls at arcades.

47:10It could have that kind of an existence because it's not really cutting edge anymore. It's not doing anything interesting for humanity. Well, someone's definitely going to clip all of that, but I'll put in some supporting points here. You're dead on about stable coins replacing one of the critical use cases for Bitcoin, which is always money transfer without the usual systems in place that are expensive and slow and so forth. So I absolutely agreed there. But I think your point really underscores why there was so much attention paid to Bitcoin ETFs, giving people access to Bitcoin exposure. People were hoping that would bring in these marginal or next buyers.

47:44And then also past Michael Saylor and Strategy, there's a lot of people hyping up companies that are buying some Bitcoin to have in their treasuries, these Bitcoin treasury companies. And frankly, Jason, it doesn't feel like that's had much of an impact on the overall supply and demand of the Bitcoin marketplace. So to me, we are looking for that next use case. But if I was going to take another, I don't know, 10K and put it in crypto, why would I put it in Bitcoin? It just feels like I'm buying a Buick, which I know is going to annoy people, but that's how it feels. If you were a buyer who is crypto savvy and a believer, you already own some Bitcoin.

48:19So for you, it's why would I buy incremental Bitcoin? And it's like, well, I don't know why I buy it. And if you bought it because you were speculating, everybody who bought this bought it because somebody went on TV and said, it's going to be a million dollars a coin. It's going to be 10 million a coin. It's going to be 500 ,000 a coin. There are countless, countless people saying outrageous things about, you know, a 10x price jump from here. Okay, fine. Why would it go there? Explain. Give me your thesis. Like if I have a thesis about Tau, it's of those 128 subnets competing, they're going to provide value to the world.

48:56As we saw earlier, hey, having a permissionless compute platform, that serves some value to somebody who's got some compute laying around and they don't have a five-year contract on it yet. They can Airbnb their GPUs. Great. Okay, that sounds like a reasonable thesis. They test it. Okay, if it works, they stay in the 128. If it doesn't work and they're not updating their code, they get out of the 128 people and they're a little bit tense or incubator, as I like to call it. And yeah, we move on. And here's strategy. I don't think I need to buy any more Bitcoin. We already have some via some ETFs.

49:35I feel good. But I'm interested in time. Put that strategy for like two years or something. And this is the most interesting chart, I think. If you look at the strategy chart, Michael Saylor has been buying and buying. and uh you know i've invited him on the pod he wanted to come on the pod and then he kind of disappeared um and ghosted me but i think because i was a little bit critical of it like because why would you buy if you really wanted bitcoin why not just buy it direct you can just buy it direct on robin hood or coinbase or anything um it's available everywhere but put it at two years or five years is anything fine uh five years probably good um and this thing had quite a run-up in 2024, as you can see, it was just cruising along there at, you know, whatever.

50:17And man, it spiked up to$300 a share. I think it peaked at, where did it peak? If you were to go to the peak there, yeah, maybe 400 a share. And when it hit that, it was trading at, I think, three times the value of the Bitcoin they owned. Now they put all these layered - Perpetual strike call option shares class D. yeah here's the thing jason i don't understand it yeah and i have read more sec filings than than 99.99 of humans who are alive because i'm a dork and if i don't understand it it's too complicated for a reason yeah so i mean this is i i think this whole thing will wind up i think they'll just trade for 50 of the value of their bitcoin at which point you would be wise to sell and get out of there and just own bitcoin yep or something else as we just discussed all right uh Let's keep moving on.

51:09It was an enormous week, Jason, of reporting from the major technology companies. We saw notes from Apple and Amazon and Microsoft and Alphabet and everybody. What did we learn? Well, we learned that everyone is still compute constrained. CapEx investments are not going to slow. And in fact, they're going to get bigger. So if you were impressed by the numbers we saw coming out of 2025 into 2026, buckle your seatbelt. Most of these companies are increasing the amount of money they're planning on spending. Microsoft said they're going to spend, I think it was 190 billion, somewhere in there, with 25 billion of just increased memory costs for their build-out.

51:47Amazon reiterated its$200 billion plan for this year. Meta increased its, and also Alphabet said, we're going to spend, I think, another 10 or$15 billion this year. So it appears that nothing has been able to break the compute crunch, back to Targon and the Manifold crew. But I want to know if you think that the CapEx doomers, the people who've been saying, oh my God, they're wasting all this money are wrong and we can be confident in that? Or if it's still a little bit too early to make a call? Well, a company that has free cashflow has a decision to make what to do with all that extra cash laying around.

52:22And you can buy back your shares of your company. I think Apple bought back like half their shares over the decades of just printing money. You could acquire companies and use the cash to buy companies. But under Alina Khan, we had a bit of a pause there, and it's been harder and harder to do that in Europe as well. So hard to do M &A, easy to buy back your shares, and then you can give dividends. And so I was just looking at, I bought a bunch of Google shares two years ago in 2023 or three years ago when people were saying, hey, they're toast. I was like, yeah, I don't buy that. They can just put an AI search box and give the AI answer at the top of search and have their cake and eat it too or make it like the news tab, which is exactly what they did.

53:08And so I bought in at$110 in 2023. And I have, yeah, I think I'm up 300%. I want to raise. It's just crazy. I only bought like 2 ,000 or 3 ,000 shares. It wasn't like a ton of money. But it has worked out pretty well. and what should they, if you, what I noticed in Robinhood was I was making like four or$500 a quarter in dividends. I didn't even know Google had a dividend and I had it set to just reinvest it. So every time I get a dividend, I buy more shares or so I buy, like now I, if I get a$400 dividend, I buy one share. So every quarter I get, every year I get four more shares or previously I got eight more shares.

53:56I guess that's fine. Just sit there. Over 10 years, I get 50 more shares. It's irrelevant to a certain extent. So if you had a way to deploy a large amount of capital and capture a new market, you would take it. Meta, Amazon, Google, Microsoft are all taking that opportunity to deploy their cash. If you were holding these because you like the dividend, or if you're holding them because you like the share buyback and you're a pure financial person who just purely likes that, you should just buy uni bonds or something boring that, you know, give you a tax rate, four or 5%, you know, just go for it.

54:39I like to see these companies do something interesting with their money, buy large companies, buy promising companies, expand into new markets, create an Apple car, you know, create Apple homes, do something interesting with your money and creating a cloud computing platform, which is what three of the four major cap expenders did that, you know, and we'll see if, I mean, Meta and Apple creating a Google compute cloud or Azure or AWS would be certainly fascinating. But those three businesses are growing like gangbusters. They have no choice but to add compute. No, absolutely. So Google cloud's revenue was$20 billion,$18.4 billion expected.

55:21That was up 63 % compared to the year ago quarter. And critically, it accelerated growth from 48 % in Q4 of 2025, which is just insane. And then every company had acceleration like this. So AWS just had its best quarter in terms of growth in 15 quarters, Jason. And it's the biggest platform in the world of managed compute. And that That was 28 % growth ahead of expected 26%. Azure, also compute constrained. You know, these companies just cannot get enough compute online. And, you know, to me, that implies that if you're a startup, well, you might as well get good at hosting local models now because it doesn't seem that the cutting edge of intelligence is going to get cheaper anytime soon.

56:02Opus 4.7 is going to be costly all year. The question is, you know, will we overbuild? Right now, it doesn't feel like you can overbuild because there's such a demand for tokens. And if you were to compare this to when they built out fiber, when they built out all this fiber, there was no Netflix. You couldn't stream an HD movie. There was no YouTube. People didn't have smartphones. They weren't taking 10-minute videos of their kids and uploading them and sharing them. You didn't actually need that much bandwidth. In other words, the infrastructure was outpacing the application layer and the consumer use case or the business use case.

56:39Same thing happened with computers. PCs started to become really powerful and people were using them for word processing and browsing. So it was like, okay, you can keep your MacBook Pro for five years, six years. There was no reason to upgrade. AI has changed all of that. There is a reason to upgrade your MacBook Pro or get a Mac Studio is you could run a local model, you could run OpenClaw, you can do all these interesting things And that will continue. So it's really nice when we have a new application that tests and stress tests the existing infrastructure. And that's what's happening right now.

57:17We've never seen this amount of demand for anything except for maybe mobile bandwidth. I think there was a time period where, you know, you paid per SMS and like there wasn't enough infrastructure to get your text messages and text messages were bogging down the system. And then BlackBerry started bogging down the networks and had to build 3G and 4G and 5G and LTE. And now if you asked a person like bandwidth at their home, they'd be like, well, I have a fiber connection. I have 500 megabit. I have Starlink. We're like swimming in bandwidth now. And a lot of times I'll come home and I'll still be on 5G or I'm in a hotel.

57:58Like I went to the hotel this time and I forgot to log in to the internet because I have my MacBook set up to automatically connect to my phone. So I just started working. I was like, oh, wait a second. This is a little slow. And after 10 minutes of work, I was like, oh yeah, I'm not on the Wi-Fi of the hotel. That's how good the mobile network got. So it's going to get even better as we get more Starlink up there connecting to our phones. Like we're going to have even better service in more places, which is going to be awesome. But the point about Fiverr, I think, is a great one to make because we were building capacity ahead of demand.

58:31And today we are chasing demand with capacity. And so we're going to have, I think, a much better early warning sign. And I read these earnings calls every quarter days and looking for any hint that things are slowing down, that they can begin to decelerate. Because companies love to reward shareholders. Apple did just announce another$100 billion in buybacks in its earnings report yesterday. Investors love that. They would love to do more of that, but they can't because they're spending all their money on this other stuff, and they would probably like to be able to reward investors, boost the share price, et cetera.

59:00But we're not there yet. Okay, next up, Jason. People in Congress are starting to press technology companies about their use of Chinese AI models or AI models from China. And on this show, you and I have talked about using things from Moonshot or Minimax or DeepSeek in OpenClaw and so forth. I'm just very curious. Do you think that American startups should be comfortable using AI models built in China that are often less expensive and often a bit more open than what we see built here in the U.S.? Yeah, I mean, they're open source projects, so I'm not sure the government can stop this because you can fork them and just restart them in the United States.

59:43And they are open. So the idea that you would have inside of them, you know, what you would have inside of TikTok, which is the ability to, you know, steal users' data, know who's connected to who and get local information, have access to people's camera rolls, have access to the location data, have access to the cut and paste. You know, you've got a lot of data you can have in that case in an open model. If you're running it locally, like does OpenSeek have a backdoor in there and how effective is that backdoor and could they hide a backdoor in there? I'm not so certain. It's a bit above my pay grade, but from my understanding, it's incredibly hard in an open source project like that to put a backdoor in.

1:00:30It does signal to me that we need to have an open source champion here in the US. Yes, we'll get to that in a second. But this is what a partner at Andreessen Horowitz said about this particular problem, Jason, and I'm quoting here from their website. If adversaries control the models, they can manipulate the underlying probabilities to subtly distort truth, influence decisions, or spread falsehoods at scale. This makes the geopolitical risk of having an adversary control these AI brains real. So that's the concern, it doesn't seem to land very well with me. I don't have that fear because these models are sufficiently open that I feel comfortable using them.

1:01:03So I was surprised to see people in Congress really going after Indiesphere, which makes Cursor, which made Composer 2 off of Kimmy and Airbnb, which used Quinn models to kind of like beat them around the ears because you could make it unpalatable in a business context to use those models by getting blocked by the government or whatever. So they can make your life bad, even if you can't ban open source. And I think it's a real risk. I think these models are good and cheap. I think we should use them. Am I crazy? You know, the bias in the models is true. They can steal IP and they do. So I guess there are some concerns around that.

1:01:39I think you could test it pretty quickly. I mean, if you went to DeepSeek right now and you asked it like, you know, tell me about the Uyghurs in China and how they're being abused. I understand you're asking about a topic where there are two starkly different and contradictory narratives. The information I can find is predominantly... Oh, sorry, Bob. It just took the answer. And did you see that? It snapped it shut. I did. I just full screened it so I could read the dang text and let's talk about something else. But critically, though, this is the model served via DeepSeek's inference stack. And I don't think...

1:02:19Yeah, chat.deepseek.com. Right. I don't think you run into the same restrictions if you use the model hosted via a different inference provider. So on OpenRouter, for example, you can just like pick between the different compute stacks that you have. But I agree that it's worrisome. But if you're any sphere, which makes Cursor, you're very savvy. They went and looked at all the open models, picked KMEK 2.5 as their base, and then worked on it from there, creating tons of domestic value, Jason. A lot of American GDP off of the back of Chinese open source. So to me, it's like a win, win, win for the country.

1:02:54And yeah, I think we do need to be aware of it. I think it's definitely something to monitor. Don't have a problem with them asking Airbnb or whoever for a little feedback on how they're using it. I think it's probably great that these senators, congressmen, everybody are getting a little more educated on it. Obviously, I need to be educated on it. I haven't been using it all that much, but we use Kimi on some of our open claw instances, and we run our own on US steel and iron. So interesting to think about. I think practically, probably not an attack vector, but we do need a champion here in the US.

1:03:32The problem is all the great minds in AI have been offered competing packages from Meta, OpenAI, Grok, and Anthropic, and Microsoft, and startups for$10 million in RSUs over the next four years, why would they go work on an open source project when they have this once-in-a-lifetime chance to take down$10, or$20, or$50, or$100 million in equity? So the answer is it's very hard to compete with that. There is one American company, reflection ai that is doing research to build open models here in the united states the problem is just every time i go to their website because i'm like what's going on with reflection there's nothing new they haven't released a model i can play with they haven't they haven't done the thing that i that i want them to do which is to put american open source or open way ai on the map again since the llama 3 era and it's not happening and you know points to xai they have open source grok one and two i checked it's on hugging face but that's not cutting edge so i just think american companies could do more and then we wouldn't have this problem and we wouldn't be ceding so much of the global inference market to upstart chinese ai labs which are doing quite well as we can see in their stock prices so yeah before i let you go jason do you have a certain background up it yeah so i hear your beloved knicks have uh well i hear you're quite rude to the atlanta team so How did it end up 40 to 15 in the first quarter?

1:05:02Because that's just... I have been watching basketball since I was a teenager, and I have never seen a blowout like this in Atlanta. I had courtside seats in Atlanta, and it was insane. 40 to 15 after the first quarter. It was a historic beatdown. The largest margin of victory, I think, at multiple times for a playoff game in the modern era. So 140 to 89 by the end of the game. It's like a hundred and something to 40. They were up 60 points for most of the game. The Knicks are the best team in the East. They've got a suffocating defense and they hit a lot of their shots at the same time. Atlanta Hawks are a young team and they kind of folded.

1:05:48And so it was absolutely insane. Yeah. It was a blowout though. So and I'll say since we're in our off duty segment and I think Fat Don Capital is making us a graphic and music for off duty. We like to go off duty at the end of the game, just talk about random stuff at the end of the show. This is my tip for people. If you got some siblings or friends in different cities, and I guess maybe I'm late to the party on this, going to see your favorite sports team in the non-home arena, like me going back to Madison Square Garden is amazing. Maybe I'll catch a game when I'm there at some point. But going to the opposing arena adds a level of villainy and fun.

1:06:31And so I was wearing my nice kith jacket and interacting with everybody. It was a lot of fun. But you get to go see another city. So last year I went to Detroit, if you remember at this time. I do. Timothy Chalamet and Ben Stiller and everybody went. We had a group of four guys, my brother Josh. And the year before I went to Philly. and there's like you get to see atlanta philly and detroit i don't think i've been there as an adult like why am i going to these cities like there's not a lot going on in them and then it turns out they're actually quite uh you know cities on the rise great american cities that are working through some issues so it's actually a great excuse to just go to a city for three days and check it out and eat at their best restaurant see their sites and uh you know taking a game and take in a local culture, all three of those, you know, local cultures here in the like Northeast, generally speaking, were just wonderful to experience.

1:07:27So next up is either the Sixers or the Celtics. I am an Eagles fan. So I do have some allegiance to the Philadelphia sports scene, much more than Boston, but I'm curious, which team do you want to see the Knicks go up against because you have the best shot of crushing them? It really doesn't matter. We, we beat both of those teams in the last two playoff series that we played against them, the Knicks were actually built to beat those two teams specifically. Those two teams have Jason Tatum at the Celtics and on the Philadelphia 76ers, they have Joel Embiid. Both of those were like MVPs. They're both, you know, they both have exceeded our best player, Jalen Brunson's performances historically, but we're probably better right now.

1:08:11And it doesn't matter. They're going to go to a game seven, I guess, tomorrow, Saturday. And we will play either one and we'll beat either one, I think, in six games. Here's the current polymarket odds. Jason, I don't speak sports bet. So when it says Philadelphia 30 cents, Boston 71, that means Boston's more likely to win, according to the numbers. Yeah, I believe Boston, who's playing at home, will beat Philly and will beat Boston. And then we have to beat the winner of Detroit Pistons versus Orlando. And I think Orlando's ahead in that series. So we get to rest up while those teams figure it out.

1:08:45And yeah, basically this is the Knicks best chance of getting to the finals and competing for the championship since the 90s, basically. Wow. So decades and decades and decades. Yeah, 30 years of my life. Yeah, basically. If they're in the finals, how much what's your like what's your what's the max you'll pay for courtside seats at the finals because i don't know what that would cost uh i you know it's one of the great things about going to these arenas and these other cities is it's fifty thousand dollars to sit courtside you know at madison square garden uh and it's a small fraction of that in these other cities so i treat myself to it but uh yeah you said that last year about the pistons you're like yeah it's really cheap you can just get courtside seats it's fantastic and i was like that's no problem uh Detroit's not far away, you know?

1:09:33Yeah, so I don't know what I would pay, but if they make it to the finals, I will definitely be going courtside or hopefully up close. My friend David Adelman owns the 76ers, so I think I want him 76ers to play the 76ers so I can go there and torture him and watch some home games in Philly. I mean, if that happens, I might be down there to see my affiliate friends to play some poker. I'll get a ticket. I'll get you. All right, but guys, this has been another episode of Twist. We're back, Jason, on Monday. We're back on Wednesday. We're back on Friday. Twist never stops. We'll see you next week.

1:10:04Bye-bye.