Codeium’s Vision for AI-Driven Development with Varun Mohan | E2064

26:07I know. So this is stuff that I sent in that I then had to debug. So I didn't clear this because the first couple of tests I sent didn't appear, went back to Cascade, said, hey, they're not showing up. It fixed it. And this is the same thing that I built over - Alex, did you ever get trained in being a developer? Have you ever taken a development course? And so when? C++ high school, self-taught, lots of those huge books you used to buy at Borders. and uh i've done little bits of things here and there like this playing with stuff trying to test and learn um but i wrote no freaking code i literally straight up amazing spoke to cascade and it works so like uh you know test jason give alex a raise and see it there and it's safe and you can log out i was going to have it create um multiple accounts multiple multiplayer chat but then I ran out of crates and I had to prep for the show.

26:59I mean, this is the future. It's, I mean, what you're seeing here, folks, is the promise of no code. We had a moment in time and we had a lot of people saying, hey, listen, WYSIWYG will allow individuals like Alex, who maybe have dipped their toe into coding, or myself who did it in high school when it was Pascal and basic and didn't even get to C++. That's how old I am. And so they're going to start to be able to use natural language, English, as opposed to WYSIWYG and dragging stuff around and writing scripting. That is the future, Arun, in your mind? I totally agree with that. If I can share one anecdote about the product before we launched it on what was very, very exciting.

27:40Our company is over 100 people, right? We have a lot of people on our go-to-market team, largely because we actually sell the enterprise. Everyone at the company builds an application, literally everyone. And I'll tell you a couple of things happen because of that. Some people on the go-to-market team are actually building apps all the time now. Some of them are personal apps, but some of them are actually apps that are useful for the company. Like you can imagine there are lots of these go-to-market tools, right? An example is a quoting tool. Why do you need to build a quoting tool if you could very, very quickly iterate entirely with a tool like Cascade with a human in the loop to kind of get the final output?

28:13And it's tuned perfectly for your business use case, right? And that is like the crazy thing, right? Because some of these quoting tools are literally six figures. And on the other hand, we are potentially building a better version for ourselves for dollars, right? That is a crazy, crazy sort of outcome that we are seeing internally. Tell me about agents. How are they going to, and I don't know if we have a demo here of an agent, but maybe define for people who are curious about how these are going to work and might want to start using English to work with an IDE and start making their own code.

28:44They're inspired, or somebody's like a hardware developer. What is the agent going to do for each of those people? That's exactly right. So an agent is effectively when an LLM is able to do almost work on itself, right? You can imagine there are two ways to almost use an LLM. One is immediate prompting. You construct a clever prompt and you just look at the outcome of the prompt. But what happens if you could make the LLM do something and iteratively use the output of what it just did to go out and do the next thing, right? That's almost doing what humans do when they do reasoning, right? They say, if this, then that, and if that, then this other thing.

29:16And they keep going down and down until they finally get the best quality answer. So I think here's the way that agentic workflows kind of work in a product like Windsurf in Cascade, right? We were able to do agentic retrieval, right? Almost going through your entire code base to find, hey, given this question, where should we actually be looking to make the change? And the AI itself can then go make the high level change in those locations as well. So this is where it's like very, very helpful for real developers that had been developers for many, many years, right? Because they're operating on code bases that are millions of lines of code.

29:48It's very different than building a zero to one app that Alex just did. But for them, it is not sufficient to just rewrite the entire app, right? You actually need to modify it. So with tools like Cascade, it is actually able to do deep retrieval, because we've actually invested a lot internally in actually deeply understanding the code base, right? That is actually systems that we've built with our own models that are really, really good at that. And that is actually where the agent is very useful. On the other hand, for the zero to one use case super quickly, the agent can go out and very, very quickly execute code, which is what you saw Alex just did, right?

30:18It installed all of the requirements for him. That's just busy work, right? Looking up manuals and installing things is not something that actually requires a ton of brain cells. It just requires some amount of knowledge, right? And all of those kinds of operations, we would just like to move entirely to the agent to actually end up doing that. So ultimately, what I think is this is going to be a bar raiser for everyone. People that are non-developers can now build apps and people that work at large companies can actually modify them very quickly. So I have a request, a feature request. Sorry to put my own needs here at the forefront of the room, but what I would have loved is if there was like a$10 or$20 a month option to have you guys spin up a little server for me and allow me to use one of my URLs that I already own and actually take my little thing off of my local machine and put it out into the wild.

31:03I presume that for Alex's personal web app, the cost to host that would be de minimis And I would pay you 99.9 % gross margins if you kind of made that super simple. I know you're thinking about the enterprise and not dweebs like myself, but I would have loved that. No, actually. So interestingly, Alex, we're not only thinking about the enterprise. And the reason is actually because we are a developer product. We're a little bit different than products like a database where only a handful of people inside the company interact with it. When we're used inside a company, everyone in the company needs to use it.

31:33So I would actually say Windsor was built so that every developer in the world and people that want to build use the product. So that's a great piece of feedback. Like we'll take it. We'll actually take it and see if we can run with it. All right, sports fans, let's talk about prize picks. It's the best way to get real money action while watching your favorite game. I love it. Here's how it works. You just pick more or less on at least two players. So like I love the Knicks. We've got these great players. We've got Carl Anthony Towns. We traded for it. do I want to say he's going to have more or less than 20 rebounds, 10 rebounds, or sometimes they'll put together two or three stats like rebounds and assists.

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33:15Run your game. Satya Nadella was on the BG2 pod last week, and he had this clip where he talked about the future of SaaS, essentially saying, there is no future in SaaS. Let's play the clip here. We will talk to you in one minute and 50 seconds. I think the notion that business applications exist, that's probably where they'll all collapse in the agent era. Because if you think about it, they are essentially CRUD databases with a bunch of business logic. The business logic is all going to these agents. and these agents are going to be multi-repo CRUD, right? So they're not going to discriminate between what the backend is.

34:05They're going to update multiple databases and all the logic will be in the AI tier, so to speak. And once the AI tier becomes the place where all the logic is, then people will start replacing the backends, right? We have people, you know, that's what, you know, In fact, it's interesting. As we speak, I think we are seeing pretty high rates of wins on Dynamics, backends, and the agent use. And we are going to go pretty aggressively and try and collapse it all. Do you believe with the central premise that the SaaS layer is going away and it's going to be replaced by agents just hitting a database in the back end?

34:47I think a lot of these simplistic applications that are basically, as Satya said, a database access and some logic on top of it, it's going to be extremely easy for companies to build themselves and an agent to actually work on it. And maybe the right way to sort of look at it is in the past, the reason why they didn't is just because the company, on the other hand, is able to maintain it, maintain it very easily. And then beyond that, they have enough R &D to go out and actually continue to improve it with time. But a lot of that R &D is probably going to improve a bunch of use cases that are not your own, right?

35:21Like you have a particular use case, like let's say a company has a kitchen sink of features. You might only need five of those features, right? So actually your maintenance cost is not nearly as high, but you just don't want to take on the engineering effort of doing that. But now with some of these agents and some of these tools, I just think these simplistic apps are going to get replaced. I agree with that. I think it's a completely correct statement. I think some of these more complex apps, I think they will take a little bit more time. like apps like Salesforce, I genuinely believe that it is more than just a tool for an agent to go out and do things.

35:50It's actually complex workflow software that fundamentally affects the way the business runs. And that will take much more time. But for some of these more simplistic apps, I think Satya is completely right. So one of our live audience members sort of points out, Campbell is their name. Kids of the future are screwed, hey? They won't have to learn to do anything. Agents will just do all the manual labor. It builds character to install packages and set up your own environment. What is your thought on the future of being a developer? Because now, if developing isn't limited to the top 2 % of humans who have a propensity towards it, a desire, a motivation, and it opens up to, say, let's not even say 100.

36:32Let's say it just opens and goes 10x to 20 % of people who maybe understand basic logic, math, or whatever, and they can get in there with these tools. It'll get them good enough to make these. do you see this being incredibly deflationary and the let's just keep it a buck here the salary of a developer has been artificially high because of the demand and the supply you 10x supply with these tools demand um is going to get uh in some ways um well the demand should stay the same even if it increases it's not going to increase 10 20 fold it's going to increase to a 3x, maybe, in which case, we will have a lot of supply.

37:10And parents right now, or people who are thinking about going into development are saying, oh, is there$150 ,000, $250 ,000 salary for me at a big Uber, Airbnb, Google, et cetera? Or am I going to be making just but$100 ,000 competing against people in India, Mumbai, Ukraine, and Sao Paulo for this work, which they're already doing, they are competing with them already, but now it's going to be even more pressure. How do you look at that? Yeah. I think that maybe empirically speaking, every time software development has been easier, we've just gotten more people doing it and salaries have gone up, right?

37:49Like you look at going from assembly to C, right? Maybe that's what the package installation question almost sounds like, which is like, hey, when you went from assembly to C, programming became much, much easier. By the way, C is considered hard now because you went from C to Java and then from Java to Python. And Python is considered much, much easier than Java, C and assembly. And we just had more developers. Now, maybe this is like a little bit of the technological optimist in me. I just think if technology becomes easier to create, what companies are going to do is they will get more return on investment from investing a larger percent of their revenue into technology creation.

38:27Unless a company believes that they cannot become better. There's a limit to how much technology makes a company better. That may be the case for some companies, but I would say for a large chunk of companies, that is just, I think, an unwillingness to dream in a lot of cases. So here's what I do think happens. I do agree with you. The number of developers does increase in the future. On the other hand, I think knowing more and having more taste does make you more valuable. Does this mean that there are a class of people that have less taste? And by taste, I just mean, hey, when you do any sort of creative pursuit or you do anything that has design decisions.

39:01There are people that just have better trade-offs, understanding the business and understanding the technology that will make better higher level trade-offs. Like when you talk to an AI, an AI is not going to know about this conversation that you and I are having here that is affecting the way in which, not yet, not yet, maybe in the future. I mean, we both know that Zoom is recording this and that if this was a staff meeting, it could very easily be fit into your prana. It could very easily. You're totally right. But you kind of see what I'm saying here, right? I do agree with you, though, that there will be a long tail.

39:30I don't think salaries are going to be equally distributed. But I believe in this deeply that there are 10x people compared to other people. And for people that get deep in the weeds, there will always be great opportunity for them in this space. That is what I believe. And I was very politically correct. You have a future in being a politician, perhaps there. But Alex, I'm going to call BS on it. I think that we're going to see deflation in developer salaries. I just don't see how that doesn't happen. Because we saw it happen with remote work. Now, it used to be very rare that a team like Matt Mullenweg, shout out to Matt, you know, was one of the first people to have like a really distributed team.

40:08And he in way before COVID, a decade, he had worked from home. Everybody in the industry thought it was crazy. They thought it would be have been$100 billion company instead of a 10 or$20 billion company. Had he been in an office and, you know, pursued it harder in their minds, but he benefited from having a global workforce and little tiny remote offices where people could hang. and they still have that philosophy where they just, they're all nomadic. He paid less, he was able to pay less salaries by having people in Uruguay and Paraguay and everywhere in between or everywhere outside of there, they're actually next to each other.

40:40There's nothing in between them. So I just think we're going to see the developer, elite developers will always be elite developers. I don't disagree with that. But I think for the average developer, we're going to see salaries stay the same, if not go down from the peak. We may have seen peak developer salaries over the past couple of years or the next couple of years and then it starts going down after that. What do you think, Alex? Pick median developer salaries. I think that this stuff just dissolves crummy developers. Like if you've been always a C plus or B minus developer, I think you're going to get just steamrolled by the market.

41:11The A plus crew are probably going to be able to extract even more value, Jason, because if you can be someone who is absolutely at the top of the pyramid and you have more tools, you're amazing and you're more impactful. Shouldn't that give you - I'll go with that. Yeah, I'll go with that. For sure, yes. I think that is like the elite becoming leader. We saw that in Hollywood. The people who actually could draw people into a movie theater with Avatar, way of the water, like he just, he's able to get budget. Robert Downey Jr. is still going to get a huge salary, but then the average person, maybe they're just a commodity now and they're doing TV.

41:45Anyway, Varun, this is all incredible stuff. We'll have you back on the program soon. And I know you're hiring a ton because you raised a ton of money. But I'm curious, your internal team, do you need to hire a ton of people? Or do you just think, is it better to go slower on hiring at this point, as opposed to doing what Google, Facebook, and everybody did for the past couple of decades, which is just hire, hire, hire, figure it out later? Feels to me like something's changed where people are very selective in hiring, maybe don't expand their team size, and just work on professional development and make people who do work for you 10 % better, 5 % better every month.

42:26That's what I'm pursuing. I'm curious what you think of that. No, I think it's exactly right. I think the expectations on what can be done in a given day have gone up within the company as well. We're building these tools ourselves. I will say the ambition of the company is to fundamentally change the speed at which we can build technology. So I I think we could use more people. Now, granted, we have a large rule at the company. The only reason why we hire another person at the company is everyone at the company is underwater, right? That's the only reason why we hire another person. If we think people are not underwater, we're not going to go and hire people.

42:59This has always been the month throughout the company. So you believe hard work is what startups are about. You believe in intensity. You believe in long hours and sacrifice to build something great. We're all in person. We're all in person at the company. Oh, really? How is that? Has it always been that way? I mean, obviously you took a little break. It's always been that way. Yeah. Do you have people who just won't apply, I guess, because you demand people being in office? We may. We may. But I just think if you're building something that is going to be material to society, I think it's hard to do it if everyone is remote and distributed and people are doing their laundry while other people are doing work.

43:34Yeah. Tell me about young people coming into this environment. Are they stoked that you're in person? Are they reticent? Are they excited to be amongst other people? Because a lot of developers are like, I would rather be in my ski house in Tahoe. I understand, you know, like me saying all this sounds quite hypocritical. As I explained, I'm going to go ski for an hour in the middle of the day. But I'm curious how young people look at this effort that you're pursuing. I think great young people want to grow really quickly and they want to work with high caliber people and discuss how we could be better.

44:09And I think that's antithetical to not being in person in the very beginning of your career. That's the hardest time to onboard to a complex technology. So I think they're hungry for it. Actually, the new young generation had to go through college with COVID, where they couldn't actually even meet their friend. That was not fun for them. that was not fun for that's a very interesting observation barun i think you've got a lot of good observations outside of the business you're running i think there's a super interesting um insight alex the covid generation people who lost their high school graduation or you know their freshman sophomore college experience whatever we took from them this disease and also the lockdowns which were in hindsight you know too long in most places for young people who So, you know, we obviously found out that they weren't as impacted.

44:59The death rate for young people is so low, thankfully. Man, they gave up so much that now maybe they actually, Alex, crave it. And so this whole work from home thing might be predicated on people like you and I who have kids and, you know, who value it differently. But maybe young people were underestimating their desire, Alex. What do you think? I think that's pretty much dead on. I think people like getting together. And my favorite example of this is, no matter what happens in the world, people love going to see concerts live because there's something special and magical about humans together making music, and that's always going to be the case.

45:31No VR headset has taken even a 1 % share from the concert industry. I think for people that were stuck online, saw what it is like to work or learn entirely remotely, I bet they have probably the best resume to explain why some in-person work is the way forward. Though I will say, as now, you know, working on my geezerdom, Jason, as you know, I'm a little bit different. But if I was 22 right now, I would not be in my backyard in Providence. I would be where I was, which was in person in San Francisco. Absolutely. That's how you built your career. That's how you got the slot here on the number one podcast in the world for startups, This Week in Startups.

46:06And you earned that, Varun. You're amazing. Congratulations. We've added you to the Twist 500, which is a totally meaningless at this time designation. But I believe it will be super important next year. Basically, we're collecting the 500 best private companies in our estimation. In order to put one on, we've got to take one off starting next year. So right now, it's a little bit easier to get on. But you made it because we think what you're building is super, super important. and we're going to do an event for the twist 500 founders in austin do you like barbecue my friend uh yeah i could i could do i could do veggie barbecue oh you're vegetarian well do you like uh vegetarian food is my question actually i'm uh yeah i love vegetarian food you do love vegetarian food okay because in austin we've got this great vegetarian place great vegetarian place and we're going to have a big party and one of the parties is going to be at this vegetarian place we look forward to inviting you to austin to come to the twist 500 party or conference or something.

47:00We're going to have a get-together for the top 500 private CEOs in Austin. I hope you can make it. And welcome to the Twist 500. Go to twist500.com and we'll see Maroon soon. Hey, will you come on next year and give us an update on the business? Yeah, yeah, we'd love to. All right, perfect. We're going to put you on the schedule. One year from today, my team is going to send you a calendar invite because I thought you were a great guest. You should write some blog posts. You've got some good insights or just come on this podcast when you have a good insight. All right. Thanks for coming on the pod.

47:29Varun, everybody, go check out his awesome company. It's in the show notes. All right, everybody, another great segment. This is why you subscribe to This Week in Startups. And if you're a founder, this is for founders, by founders. Alex is a founder now. I'm a founder now. And we have great founders on the program who are educating you on what happens inside startups. We don't dumb this down. This isn't like, here's how to build your side hustle, Alex. This is how to build a large, sustainable startup that changes the world. Do we have any questions from the audience? Because it would be great to throw in an S.

48:02Jason here and bank it. Dubiella wants to talk about what VCs really look for when they're vetting a company for investment. And they asked, is it quality of product, user numbers, or revenue? Clearly, you want to have high quality, high user numbers, and high revenue, Jason. But if you're thinking about a seed stage company in the consumer space, why don't you share a couple of things that you think are indicative of the early seeds of success. Sure. So a startup at its core are three things. There's a team that's assembled to build a product that delights or services, entertains, or makes a market more efficient.

48:36Team, product, and a customer, right? This is just the basics of business. And so as a business becomes more a tour, you will have things like the number of customers, how much each customer spends, and the profitability of the overall business. So we can look at Netflix from when they were sending red envelopes to now, and you can see how many customers, how much they're paying, and there's wonks on Wall Street who are looking at it, and they're even doing tiny little things like currency translations. How does the money they make in India versus South America, Europe, and the US and tax treatment and money transfer and how do all these things affect earnings, impact earnings at the end of the day.

49:18That happens when you're at scale. But you asked about seed companies. At a seed company, what you're doing is you're looking for a certain type of team. And you're looking for a team that is three members, not one, not five. Okay. Three is the magic number. It could be two co-founders. It could be three. It could be four. One and five, too little, too many. You were looking for two, three, or four. Why? Because one always quits, one always gets fired, and then one winds up running the company. I'm telling it to you straight. That's why you're here on This Week in Startups is to get the straight dope.

49:50The truth is, that's why an investor at the early stage is looking for three. If you cannot get a co-founder, here's what VCs think. You're too hard to work with, in which case it could be a sign that you're going to be very successful because you're just so crazy that you just want to be a maniacal leader. But we would have seen that with your track record in the past. You would have done something before that showed that massive leadership. And it's one out of a hundred founders. More likely, what it is, is you're too weak to convince people to come join you on an unpaid sabbatical to go build the future.

50:24So in other words, you are not confidence inspiring enough. I'm in candid mode today. You're too weak. You're too worthless. You're too soft. You're not inspiring enough to get great people to join you on the adventure. That's what a VC thinks when they see you as a solo entrepreneur. I hate to tell it to you that way, but that's the truth. You can't get one person on planet Earth with skills to join you to go change the world. You're Larry. You can't find Sergey. Sergey can't find Larry. Zuckerberg had two or three partners. We only remember that Eduardo is not around. And who was the other guy?

50:59Chris, who bought a bunch of... There was a bunch of co-founders there. There's a movie about co-founders. Evan Spiegel had two co-founders. One of them dropped out. There's still another one. YouTube had three. Javid left early and then became an investor and went and finished college, I think. But you had two co-founders there. It started as three, went down to two, proving my point. So that's what you're looking for. You're looking for that founding team in the early stage. After the founding team, you might look at the product and the product roadmap, and you might talk to the pilot customers and see how acute it is.

51:27But it's team, team, and also team at the earliest stages. What about team, though? Okay. So you'd want to look at the team. And maybe give some thought after you look at the team, at the team. And if you're not inspiring enough to get a co-founder right now, maybe you're inspiring enough to be the co-founder. Maybe you're inspiring enough to join the team. So I said it to you in what a VC thinks. I'm not saying you're worthless and weak, like some military drill sergeant, but that is what a VC is thinking. You're worthless and weak to their goal of having a 3, 4, 5x fund. they need a lunatic who can get two other lunatics or at least two other samurai to go out on a crazy mission this is elite jedi stuff is everybody a jedi or do they search the galaxy looking for high mandalorian counts metalorian counts to find the best jedi it's an elite pursuit it is not for everybody everybody can try to be a jedi most people cannot go and fight a sith lord because you will get your arm cut off.

52:33And even the best Jedi, the most powerful ones, have lost limbs. Luke Skywalker, Anakin. There's a long list of lost limbs in Jedi land. It's a brutal pursuit, even if you are elite. Anakin's not Luke? I thought... God. You Star Trek people make me crazy. I'm not... Anakin is Darth Vader. Spoiler alert. Luke is his son, one of... Sorry, I haven't seen the Jar Jar Binks movie since high school. God, I have to catch you up. We have another question. all right oleg z says it was it was a great answer and i was only half getting my star wars question all right i like a little humor no keep it up i'm an asimov guy originally i was never star trek or star wars you know if i have to come up with my i'm gonna come up with an alex impersonation it sounds just like my friedberg impersonation i was gonna say like i think i've heard that one before directly a friedberg it's just my nerd impersonation i'm not even offended by that all right no no you're cool i mean honestly yes i don't i don't regret anything nerdy that i've done in my life no i mean all the books that i read all the things that i was being lame it worked out great um another question oleg z says how about hyper competition between the 4712 companies that will deliver ai agent services late in 2025 i think the question here jason is how do you stand out when people think they know where the future is and they're all kind of converging on the same point.

53:57In this case, AI agents. Yeah. So if you're in the AI agent business, congratulations. And it's kind of like a crowded beach. Everybody's going to surf on those waves and it's going to be attrition. Sometimes if you survive, you thrive. So that is one strategy. If you can stay alive and other people give up because the water's too cold or somebody got taken out by a tiger shark or the waves are too rough, whatever, there's rocks, people get dragged out those 4 000 people that you referenced surfing that beach will quickly become a thousand as people run out of money and give up so what you're trying to do is find a customer base that loves you that you can delight and you can just focus on and that's where this ideal customer profile and your beachhead really matter finding those customers those first couple customers for spacex they got um nasa as a customer right pretty great for tesla they had rich geeks who wanted $150 ,000 toy slash sexy car.

54:57And they were going to buy a sexy car anyway. So why not buy the technology driven electric one, which was super cool to have at the moment and be like the bell of the ball every time you pull up to a restaurant versus buying yet another Ferrari, yet another, you know, McLaren, yet another Lamborghini. So you find that core audience, you delight them. In this case with agents, we have tax GPT. They're going after a certain CPA and a certain size firm. And you can hear those founders talk about it, of who they're going after. Same thing with Grammarly. Grammarly went after students. Who has an acute need to have their grammar reviewed?

55:41Authors, journalists? Well, they have infrastructure for that already. Who else? And if you're a very self-selected, you're a graduate with an English degree or a journalism degree in all likelihood, so you probably have been through this torture. Oh yeah, how did you get tortured? At school. So who did they go after? They went after schools. That's why Grammarly has 40 million customers, because there's all these people at schools who are writing papers. 100 % of people have to write a paper every semester. They probably have to write multiple ones. And what do they get graded on? Grammar is part of it.

56:08They're circling red lines, and you will lose points for bad grammar. In other words, you will gain points by having good grammar. Thus, they found an ideal customer profile. Students, bad customer profile in terms of being able to pay, but students do not stay students forever. They eventually go into the workforce and they bring the tools with them to the workforce. And so that's how to think about it. Really focus on the ideal customer profile, keep your expenses low, keep your burn low, and really have a great elite team that delights and studies a customer base. Can you actually add a little bit more on how to go about selecting verticals if you're going to take the niche approach that you just outlined, the go after that particular customer subset.

56:47Because Grammarly could have said, do you know who needs to write? People who do business memos. And they could have picked that as another pain point or ICP. How do you find the people who have to write business memos? How do you find them? That's the question, right? Well, going to New York, throw a rock? I guess. I mean, business memos. I mean, I would say the way you'd find people who do a lot of writing might be management consultants. So in business management consultants, what is their output? So I guess I would start to look at output. Well, everybody's got email as an output and everybody wants to have good emails.

57:19Okay. Maybe they're good candidates for it. But I would say I would go McKinsey. They're writing a report. Their output is a lot of words and people are paying for the word. So I would look for people where the output is words in a document that are paid for magazine book newspaper a report a memo seems like pretty throwaway if people see an error in a business memo do they rip it up and get freaked out no they see an error in a book newspaper or a management report they paid a million dollars for yeah they get freaked out like why is there i'm paying you a million dollars to write this report mckenzie and you can't use commas yeah and you don't know how to use commas properly and this is like it just kind of the the what is it the bloom falls off the rose or something you're just like god this is yeah something like that there's some analogy here so i i do think for anybody operating in a crowded space understanding the customer and surviving are two really good strategies all right oleg z there you go that is jason on how to stand out in the 2025 agentic startup boom and that's all the questions we have awesome how fun was that if you want to put your own questions to Jason.

58:31Make sure to swing by our news live streams. We do them usually on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and we make time for audience Q &A whenever absolutely possible. My request, bring your hard questions. We've had a couple of more generic questions lately. I really want to get to the nitty-gritty, so bring your business problems to the show. All right, I'm Alex. This is Twist. We're back on Monday. Lots more to come this year, and of course, next year's going to be big. See you soon.