Created By Humans | Sila’s Battery Evolution | E2075

25:19There's also the zero with law if you want to get super technical about it. But here you're essentially saying that when AIs take from humans, there should be a symbiotic positive benefit to both sides. Which is interesting because how does the human stuff benefit the robots, which are non-living? Is that more like a quality of output point or is that we're going to give them value too? Yeah, so the way we came up with this was we first wanted to solve this problem. We started talking to folks in the content industry and in the AI industry. And there's this big debate about whether training is fair use or not.

26:00And folks in the content industry were all saying, well, no, of course, it's not fair use. This is copyright infringement. And then folks in the industry were saying that because a human can read unlimited books, learn from those books, robots should also be able to read and learn from unlimited books. So just kind of like two fundamentally different views on this matter, which was leading to all the lawsuits. So we wanted to try to kind of come up with a new philosophy to bridge these two perspectives. We're trying to bring everyone together here. So the way we bridge these two sides is we looked at what Asimov had said, which is that there should be certain rules that describe human-robot relations, that we need special rules as it relates to how robots learn from humans and train on their data.

26:44That's a perspective that basically everyone in the content world and the AI world basically can agree on. And then from there, we're able to kind of build the company around this philosophy. me okay that helps a lot i'm gonna pull this back up and i'm gonna translate this to my understanding of it now so i i would say and i'm just riffing here i'm not trying to be critical of your you know corporate verbiage but um when ai robots user learn from human behavior or human creative output humans get to say yes or no and the human is compensated for helping the robot is another way of saying that yeah it's another another way of saying it okay cool i just make sure that i fully got that because if we're doing science fiction references i have to go all the way to the bone to understand what we're talking about um there's another thing you guys are working on that i thought was super cool which is a almost like a favicon or like an icon and you want to show people give people a way to demonstrate that something that they've built is done by humans versus ai and you had this little icon a bit like the copyright symbol uh what was the reason behind this we imagine that being the new copyright symbol um so you know we think what might be even more powerful than copyright in the future is this idea that something is created by humans versus then by AI.

27:57So the idea is this symbol is, you know, you could put this on your book or whatever human creation you have to indicate that it was created by humans and not by robots. And, you know, we as a company believe that, you know, human creativity is invaluable, and we want to make sure it is protected in the AI era. But at the same time, we don't want it, you know, siloed off from the world of AI. And that's why we're trying to, you know, get this working relationship going between human creativity and AI. And that's really the broader mission. Well, then I think we probably need three then. We need one that's pure human, one that's augmented.

28:29Like, I don't know. If I use Grammarly to edit something to help me find a missing comma, I don't think I'm writing with AI, but AI is helping me write. And then we probably need a third one that's just like a robot wrote this, just so you know. Because it feels weird to only mark off one section of writing as a thing and then not categorize the other other areas of work or am i being overly pedantic here no i think i think you're right yeah i think it's we probably should create multiple badges um yeah it's good yeah maybe we will we'll work with that i mean like i said we're just getting started so that was our first our first approach but we'll we'll build on that so just before i let you go a final question about synthetic data because you and i are talking about really the most handcrafted artisanal words that you can think of books, which are a big labor of love by both authors and editors and publishers and so forth.

29:19But I've also heard about synthetic data becoming increasingly important in LLM training. Does that represent a risk to the underlying thesis of the company? Or do you think that even in a synthetic data positive era, we're still going to absolutely need to pull from the great human library? Yeah, so this is the question that I ask everyone in the AI community, like where they think this is going between synthetic data and AI and human data. Just because it is like a core question to this, for how this company is going to work. When I talk to portfolio founders about what's slowing them down, they always vent to me about project management.

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31:11Again, that's atlassane.com slash startups slash twist. I haven't heard anyone say that human data is going to go away entirely. I mean, there's some people who are more enthusiastic about synthetic data, some or less. But the general consensus is going to be, it's going to be a mix of synthetic data and human data. And human data is going to be really important. regardless of everyone's opinions. I mean, our company, we are built around this idea that human data is invaluable and it always will be. And I mean, that'll be true for a million years. There's still something fundamentally unique about humans.

31:46And that's what we need to protect and preserve in the AI era. Yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how it plays out between today and human data. I mean, we'll be keeping a close eye on that. So if I ever come back on the show in the future, I might have some new thoughts to share on that. Well, I'm glad you said if I come back on the show because i was just thinking about what your next major newsy event might be that will bring you on are you guys going to announce commercial deals with like for example i'm just picking a random name out of a hat open ai or are those agreements going to be quieter and not something that you'll make noise about as a as a company when they happen i think it's to be determined uh and more likely i mean we're pretty open transparent companies i think we would like to share these things.

32:31And we think it's better if we're given the level of conflict and we're trying to improve things. We think that being more open about this is going to lead to better outcomes. So I think we'll be pretty open as a company, but we'll see. We'll see how it plays out. All right. Well, we'll have you back on in maybe six months to see how the marketplace is growing. And I'm very curious to see where prices net out because I don't think really anyone knows right now what the stuff is worth. And it'll also be very interesting to see down the road, maybe in two years time, what fraction of author revenue generated by your platform is for model training versus rag versus transformation because each one of those to me could become the leading driver of demand, but I have no idea which one it's going to be, you know, given enough time for this to kind of mature.

33:14So thank you so much for coming on, man. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. This was great and hope to come back sometime. Before you go, where can people find both the company and yourself on the great wide internet? uh well the company is just created by humans.ai so that's our our url and as for me you can find me there you can find me on on probably twitter which is probably good so and you mean you mean the platform formerly known as twitter now x.com x x.com yeah i uh gotta get used still getting used to that but yeah x uh my twitter handle is trip adler you can find me there or follow uh uh created by humans too um so hope to see you there all right thank you trip all right next we're going to go into our twist 500 bag and talk to the CEO and co-founder of SELA.

34:00If you don't know battery technology and why they matter to the modern world and are improving at a slow but perhaps accelerating rate, this is for you. Let's have some fun. Did you know that the Nobel Prize in Chemistry back in 2019 was awarded to three people? John B. Goodenough, M. Stanley Wittenham, and Akira Yoshino for their contributions to the lithium ion battery. It was actually just back in 1991 that the first lithium-ion battery was used in kind of an everyday consumer electronics. We're very accustomed to lithium-ion batteries today, and you could actually argue that they have made the modern electronic world possible in a great many ways, especially in mobile, but they're actually still relatively new, and they have been getting better over time.

34:42But as the entire world begins to think more about lower carbon energy, renewable energy, and energy storage, we're going to need to take our current battery technology and make it quite a lot better. So there's still work to do. And that's why companies like Sela, I think are particularly interesting because they are trying to take the humble batteries that we know and love today and squeeze more out of them so we can go further, faster, and in more comfort. So please welcome to the show. It's Gene Berdyshevsky. He's the co-founder and CEO over at Sela. Gene, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me, Alex.

35:14So I'm prepping for today's show. I am not a chemist, nor a physicist, nor an electrical engineer. I am a big old fan of technology that's going to make my life better. And I think that's you. But I do want to start with some basics. So prepping pretty clear that Titan silicon anodes inside of batteries is what Sela is working on today. Those are a number of words that I think most folks listening don't understand. So could you start with just explaining to folks out there what you guys have built and how it's making batteries have more energy density today? Yeah, let's break it down. Maybe let's just start at your cell phone or your electric car.

35:50And inside of one of those, you've got a battery cell. Now, everybody sort of thinks about that and says, okay, that stores energy, but very, very few people ever take one apart. If you take one apart, there are two really important components in there. One is the anode. That stores lithium when the battery is charged. The other is the cathode. That stores lithium when the battery is discharged. Those two components take up probably 80, 90 % of the space inside the battery. At SELA, we make one of those components. We make the anode. And the anode we make, Titan Silicon, is about half the size and about five times lighter than the anode that's in your battery today.

36:26And it doesn't matter if it's in your car or your phone, ours is dramatically better. And so as we integrate our anode material into these batteries, they shrink or they can store more energy. So that's what we do. The actual material, the actual anode is a black powder. We sometimes talk about it as black magic dust. I mean, it's really fine powder and it goes into the front end of a gigafactory where your battery cell is assembled. And this is a nanoparticle, I think, technically by the size of the actual materials that are used, correct? So our materials are actually micron-sized, but they have nanoscale features in order to make the technology work.

37:11It's one of the sort of critical things. It's why this technology that we're bringing to market, scientists have been working on silicon anodes for 20-plus years, and no one's ever cracked the code. And we actually went through about 100 ,000 iterations synthesizing different materials with different compositions and different features. uh and once we got that right you know it was through a critical set of kind of nano properties that that made it work that we're able to commercialize this actually i i read that number as 80 000 when i was prepping i was going to bring it up i'm glad to know that's actually now into the uh the hundred thousand realm but it reminds me a little bit of what edison did with light bulb filaments trying to figure out what would work i mean admittedly i don't think he ran a hundred thousand tests like you guys did but you know there's a history in electrification of just straight up experimenting until we find the right material.

38:03Now, when it comes to this Titan silicon, which is how you've branded it, you've said that you're looking at today at about a 20 % energy density boost. And you're hoping for, I think, up to 40 % in the future. So first of all, how impactful is 20 %? And how far from doubling that is SELA today? So 20 % is a massive amount at the chemistry level. The chemistry that's in your phone today started plateauing, probably finished plateauing right around 2008, 2010, hasn't really improved. And every little percentage point that's been squeezed out, any kind of phone runtime improvements or laptop runtime improvements, those you can really attribute to the improvements in microchips, not the battery, certainly not the battery chemistry.

38:48Today, chemistry improves maybe 1 % per year. So think of this as like two decades, two to four decades worth of breakthroughs. I mean, this is as significant a chemistry change as when we went from nickel metal hydride to lithium ion in the first place. It's as big a deal. And so it's a really big deal in the business. As far as getting from 20 to 40%, we think kind of end of the decade is a reasonable timeframe frame for that. So once you kind of unlock this new chemistry, you can pretty quickly advance it as long as you have the investment in R &D to kind of continue to push it forward. So we feel pretty good about that.

39:26Okay. You did a Reddit AMA recently, which was actually very, very interesting. And one question I was going to ask you was, why just 20 %? Because I'm so spoiled to processors getting much faster, very, very rapidly. I mean, Moore's Law has been fantastic for a very long time. And just thinking about the software side of AI models today, I mean, it really feels like it was such quick progress. But you explained to people on Reddit why this is hard. And you said, batteries are a mix of every engineering and scientific discipline all going on at once, materials, chemistry, physics, mechanics, and quantum.

39:59And then you have to scale it up. But you also said something that's really interesting, which is, you know, often in batteries, you can improve one thing and make other things worse at the same time. So it sounds like you found a way to increase density, but just going on your own argument, has there been any downsides to moving to the Titan silicon anodes that might make it less exciting than it sounds on paper? So that's what we spent a decade in order to be able to say no. So there are no downsides. As a matter of fact, there's one other upside, which is you can recharge batteries with Titan silicon in about half the time of conventional batteries.

40:35So you can get much faster boost. the periodic table of elements is actually just quite small. And when you're talking about storing more energy, you're really talking about driving the voltage further apart. And there's only so much more you can do there and going to smaller and smaller atoms, smaller and smaller elements. And we're already at lithium, which is one of the smallest. So really from here, in terms of batteries, there's maybe a 2x improvement from today's state of the art on a volume basis. And that's kind of it. That's as far as we can see today. So it's unlike AI or unlike microchips, we're not dealing in information, we're dealing in energy and we're bound by the laws of thermodynamics and what the universe gave us.

41:17So if we're at a 20 % boost today, 40 % by the end of the decade, how long would it take us to reach that theoretical doubling that you mentioned? I think it depends on the investment in R &D. I think you could probably do it sometime in the 2030s. You need to improve the cathode as well, separator, a couple other things, but it's doable. And that's at the chemistry level. People are also optimizing the packaging and things like that. So maybe there's a two and a half X from where we are today, but that two and a half X would transform life as we know it. I mean, every single vehicle would be electric.

41:50On a weight basis, you might be able to get three or four X. Airplanes would become electric for regional flight so uh you would transform the face of uh the planet as far as energy is concerned with those kind of improvements that's why i wanted to start with pointing out that lithium-ion batteries are relatively new and they made you know the discmans that i used as a child and then my first cell phone and then my first iphone and then like all this stuff was made possible by this relatively humble battery chemistry that we've not been using for 35 years give or take but it sounds like we're not on the cusp of a similar revolution per se we're just going to be improving the lithium ion batteries i feel like you're about to jump in so go for it yeah yeah so so uh there's a little nuance so so the energy the energy is carried by the lithium ion itself but what it's doing the key thing is is how are you storing those lithium ions how densely can you store them and and so when you say like traditional lithium ion what you're really saying is You have an anode made of graphite, which has been the dominant anode for 33 years now.

42:54And you have a cathode made typically of a metal oxide, lithium cobalt oxide, nickel oxide. You kind of hear NCM, LFP, LCO, those kind of terms. Those materials are the host materials. And what we're doing is replacing graphite with silicon. And then over time, we'll replace the cathode with something else as well. And again, we're not really just improving lithium ion per se. Those are complete chemistry revolutions. You might as well call today's lithium ion, you know, graphite, nickel graphite batteries. And what we're doing is going to nickel, nickel silicon batteries. These are really big changes that are not, you're not, you're not squeezing the chemistry, you're having to kind of unlock a whole nother dimension of science.

43:36That makes so much more sense to me because I was, I was going through a lot of just, you know, background material on the industry. And it felt like you guys were making at least like lithium silicon batteries. I wasn't quite sure what to call them per se. But I think people best understand lithium ion is kind of a starting point today for battery tech now on the point about um the titan silicon anodes one reason why i'm excited about selah is that it seems that you can take this technology you guys have built and put it into a host of batteries today and essentially unlock this performance improvement that we discussed uh across form factors sizes implementations is that a fair understanding of what you've built 100 so you got it so what so So the reason this revolution feels like evolution sometimes is I call it a revolution in parts, meaning we drop in this new component, but we put it into the existing gigafactories.

44:27And that's by design. It's actually much harder to create a new technology that's fully compatible with everything downstream, right? You don't have the privilege. You don't have the advantage of saying, well, if I just make the battery a little differently, then I can use this new chemistry. Right. So we're making all the components that we want to revolutionize. We want them to be compatible with existing gigafactories. And what that means is it can go into any form factor, any application, any factory anywhere in the world today. And the same materials that we're now shipping in consumer devices, we're in several million products around the world today.

45:03Those same materials are the ones that we're scaling up to put into your electric vehicles. and there's very little we have to do differently and there's very little the customer has to do differently. So I want to put this into very, very easy to understand consumer terms. I recently went out and finally replaced my iPhone 11. I got a 16. It's fine. But how long until I see, you know, CeeLess battery technology in a device that I can go purchase at the mall? And I know you've had money from Mercedes-Benz. I think you worked with BMW. I think Panasonic was in there at some point. But when can I go out and kind of like experience this?

45:36So you can experience it today. The one product that we're in that I can publicly say is the Whoop Fitness Tracker. So if you use a Whoop product, you use one of the most advanced batteries in the world today. And I say one of because we're also in another device that I unfortunately can't publicly say. But, you know, like I said, millions of people are using our product today. As far as a cell phone, probably one to two years from now. So we're in the process of building our first gigafactory, if you will, really a single digit gigawatt hours facility in Washington state. And that'll be enough for kind of tens of thousands of cars.

46:16So we'll get into a few vehicles that you'll be able to buy at the high end, but it's also enough for hundreds of millions of cell phones or as many as a billion wearable devices. So we'll be sort of all over consumer electronics in the next couple of years. How hard is it to like set up this first single digit gigawatt hour factory? And then how much of that's replicable across the facility? Are you doing all the hard learning now to manufacture at scale and it'll be easier to continue that process as you go through? It's insanely hard. So it's several hundred million dollar investment. It's first of a kind.

46:53Everything is new. Everything is different. There's no one you can turn to and say, well, how did you do it last time? So, you know, in many ways, the organization is learning how to build these large projects. And so, you know, as we expand, it'll be more like billion dollar scale investments. We'll be ready for that. I think where we are in our journey, you know, we're shipping commercially today from Alameda. So that's kind of how we got into the millions of devices. This is kind of like our Model S, if you will. It's kind of our second go around. It's, you know, a lot better, but it's dramatically harder.

47:23You know, the road store was kind of hand built. The Model S was like a whole, you know, modern car. And then as we kind of go to the full scale, what I call world scale reactor sizes in the next cycle, a few years down the line, you know, that's kind of like the Model 3 equivalent. So we're kind of in the middle of our scaling journey. I think it'll take us, you know, another four years before I can say we're a world class, you know, materials and chemistry company on the likes of a BASF or a Yumicor or Corning. I was going to ask about applications, because when I think of lithium ion batteries, two things come to mind, consumer electronics and electric vehicles, right?

48:00But we also talk a lot about just like grid load capacity size batteries. And I know that there's different chemistries you can use for those because they don't need to cycle as often and they don't have weight problems and they can be huge because who cares? But I'm curious what C-Less technology could do to increasing our ability as a species to store energy so that we can move faster towards a renewable future. So ultimately, we will address that market. It has a lot higher cost pressure than even the auto market, and the auto market is notoriously cost sensitive. So you kind of think about it as you bring new technology into the world, you really want to start at the high end.

48:40And so, you know, that's us enabling you to have your phone run 20 % longer or 30 % longer. I mean, that's worth a lot, right? And there's like 10 cents of graphite anode in the battery in your phone that we would replace. And so you tell me, is it worth five bucks or 10 bucks to have 30 % longer runtime? And, you know, actually, I'm curious about that because if the graphite costs 10 cents, it's essentially free, even for an iPhone bill of sales, right? That's right. what does a similar battery equipped with Titan Silicon cost? What's the, what's the differential there from the relatively cheap graphite?

49:16Couple bucks difference, right? Like, like almost free from, from a consumer standpoint, right? But, but we have to. The percentage difference is quite high, but it only scales up to a big Mac. So it's just not that big of a deal. Correct. Not even a big Mac, right? It's like. All right. Inflation of a big Mac today. Half a big Mac. That's right. And, and by the way, you know, faster recharge. And the reason, by the way, when you got your iPhone 16 and you start playing with, you're like, yeah, this is a lot like the 13 I just had. I just went through this upgrade. One of the reasons is that the processor speed is throttled in order to get you the battery lifetime you want.

49:48So what you're going to experience it like is it's going to be a way snappier phone when you can unthrottle some of the processor speed. And that's something all of us techies love, right? We love snappy, snappy, snappy. So I think there's, I'm optimistic, as well as AI features, those are very power hungry. So if you want AI at the edge, you're going to want these kinds of batteries. And we're seeing that we're seeing customers excited for this. You know, they're, they're, they're not worried about, you know, a couple of bucks on a device like that. I'm disappointed though, that we were already kind of running up against the limits of chemistry because those feel very, uh, just immovable.

50:27Like, okay. Hear me out. I'm an idiot, but like lithium is the lightest solid. It's one of the lightest stuff. Yeah. I think that's right. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Cause it just, that doesn't give you a lot more space. There's not like three things that are lighter than we could try that are also solids. Do you think that we need something a bit more radical in how we think about storing electricity and that maybe that the current method we've been running with for so long is just insufficient to meet our future storage needs? Not really. I think we underappreciate just how insanely cheap energy is and how much, when you, when you think about the grid, I mean, our whole society is based on this.

51:02And if you make the foundation of an entire Salesforce tower level skyscraper, which is, you can think of all of our technology stack is sitting on the foundation of energy. If you improve that foundation 20, 30 percent and you can build 20, 30 percent higher or whatnot, you think about the technology levels you can reach. I mean, lithium ion itself, in 2003, when GM crushed the EV1, they basically said, look, the batteries are just not good enough. And literally that year or 2001, they crushed it. And literally the next year, Tesla was incorporated because lithium-ion batteries had gotten good enough.

51:39And that was only, at that point, maybe a 50 % improvement in batteries, right? And then it kept going. First, we're going to focus on mobile consumer devices. We're going to enable new kinds of AI devices that you've never seen before. I have some really cool customers that I can't even tell you what they're working on, but we're helping the customers at the leading edge of AI sort of push devices that are going to be coming to market in the next couple of years. We're also going to support drones, some of these aerial vehicles, some of these EV tool type vehicles, right? So you can change society with a 2x better battery.

52:11When you talk about the grid, it's so cost sensitive. We'll get there. We will lower the cost of energy storage as well. And the reason we do that is the more energy you can store in a single cell, the fewer cells you can use to make a pack. So if you use half as many sells, you're mining half as much material, you're processing half as much material, you know, it costs you half as much to put on the grid. But a lot of that is, you know, there's regulatory reasons why it costs as much as it does. The fundamentals of energy are incredibly cheap, which is also what makes it really hard to compete.

52:45It's why you have to, you know, invest a billion dollars in R &D to get something that's better than what's out there in the world because our whole society is built on it. And it's really hard to ring even 1 % out of these things. Well, I'm really glad that you're going to get 20 % that I've never been so excited about 20 % in my life. I feel like it's going to unlock so much. But when I think about the placement of SELA in the market today, what we need as a society and what we're kind of focusing on, which is like hard tech and getting back to building things. To me, it seems like where your company is money should just be like raining down in huge bricks from the sky to land on your hq in alameda you guys have raised i think 1.4 billion that's publicly known it's very hard to do what you're doing but one way companies used to raise money was going public they would go public and raise money and uh that's gone out of fashion as more private capitalists become available but i'm curious about you guys and if an ipo might be a fundraising mechanism for you versus a future eventual corporate capstone moment?

53:45It's fair. I mean, I think whenever we go public, the proceeds would be used to expand production capacity because that's how our business runs. The question is sort of how much production capacity, how much revenue, what kind of economics do we need in order for the street to kind of believe in us and bet on us for the next thing? And I think we're not quite there, but certainly, you know, hopefully in the next few years, we'll get to a point where that makes sense. I think access to public markets is really important for industrial companies like ours because it brings down the cost of capital.

54:17It allows us to get debt, bank debt, just a much bigger pool of capital gets to rush in. So obviously, we're going to need others that have very strong economics to lead the way. And I'm surprised a lot of those aren't yet in the market. But, you know, hopefully that creates some tailwinds for folks like us to be able to raise additional capital and grow our business. But you made it very, very clear that doing what you're doing is difficult versus today. It feels like making software is the easiest it's ever been to get on that train and start making something. So could you just as a closing riff here, pitch founders to go out and build physical things that are hard versus software things that are easier?

55:02Look, I think most founders don't want to do things that are easy. That's not how we're wired. For me, going into battery chemistry, I was at Tesla. I was working on the battery systems. We made amazing progress, unlocked this whole wave of electrification. My question was, as I decided to do my own thing, was what's even harder than that? And I found chemistry and physics and sort of what we're doing now. And it's incredibly satisfying to solve insanely hard problems. And look, startups are supposed to be risky. Odds are it's not going to work. So you want to be working on something that you're going to be satisfied with, even if the outcome isn't exactly what you envision.

55:42You're going to want to be satisfied that you were in the arena, in the proverbial arena, fighting a fight you really care to fight. And to me, there's not a lot of things more important than changing the foundation of society and energy and having the opportunity to kind of rebuild the US industrial base. I mean, to me, those two things are incredibly motivating every morning. well if you don't have a reason to get out of bed you can just stay in bed and drink wine so i'm glad that you're working on this and i'm really excited to eventually learn what that second device is that's currently using your technology and also getting it into my iphone so if you don't mind call up cupertino and tell them to get off their backsides and make a better phone i'd appreciate it all right uh gene for folks who want to take another look at the company what is the website uh www.sila s-i-l-a nano and anno.com all right thank you very much my friend we'll talk to you in maybe a year and see how things are going.

56:32When that factory opens up, take a video and send it to us. We'd love to show it on the show. Sounds good. Thanks for having me, Alex. Thank you. All right. And then to close out today, Netflix. Netflix is of course the consumer streaming giant. It dropped earnings because we are now just getting into the Q4 calendar earnings cycle. So expect to hear a lot more in the next couple of weeks from both major technology companies all the way down to your smaller public firms. But Netflix had an absolutely Boko insane quarter and Wall Street is cheery. So why is Netflix up 11 % today? Well, it's because they added 18.9 million subscribers in the last quarter, bringing them to over 300 million, about 302 million subscribers on a global basis.

57:15That was better than Wall Street expected. And the company dropped a$15 billion stock buyback while also boosting its outlook. So I'm not gonna lie. This has been a pretty smashing quarter for Netflix, a company that saw its value dramatically curtail, come down really, a couple of years back. Its rebound has been honestly pretty legendary. And if you read the company's official IR documents, they talk about how they have a number of hit shows coming out this year, or sorry, sequential seasons from hit shows. So they're pretty optimistic about 2025 calendar for the business. A lot of people thought that after COVID came and really helped a lot of companies grow, they pulled forward so much growth early that they were going to have just kind of pathetic growth rates for the foreseeable future.

58:02Just hasn't really turned out to be the case in Netflix. So if you sold back when Netflix was what,$250 a share, and now you're sad that it's about$1 ,000 a share, well, sometimes patience really is a virtue. Get ready for a lot more earnings reports. We're going to cover just the absolute biggest ones here on Twist, the ones that matter the most. For example, if Microsoft talks about OpenAI a lot in its earnings cults coming up. Well, we will bring that to you, but we're not going to break down every single, I don't know, line item from Cloud Fidler's own earnings reports. But that is Twist for today, my friends.

58:33Jason will be healed up hopefully and back with us on Friday. More interviews to come. And don't forget to check out thisweekandstartups.com slash docket if you want to see the information we put together for each show. We're making sure that goes out about an hour or two before we record so you can chime in, frankly. You can drop a comment if you want. And also, twist500.com. That's where we're building the list of the 500 most interesting and potentially lucrative private market companies. My name is Alex. We'll see you soon. Bye.