Drawing the Future with AI featuring tldraw’s Steve Ruiz | E1863

0:00First off, to see how well this worked and how much it cut out, and to watch people who'd never programmed before or never really thought of themselves as folks who can have a creative experience. with digital stuff, you know, just try the skids, like for the first time, it was incredible. And yeah, it went really, really viral. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Miro helps take ideas from in your head to out there in the world with its ability to democratize collaboration and input. Sign up for free at Miro.com slash startups. The Equinix startup program provides hybrid infrastructure solutions for startups, including up to$100 ,000 in credits and personalized consultations and guidance from the Equinix team.

0:45Go to equinixstartups.com to apply today. And NetSuite. Once your business gets to a certain size, the cracks start to emerge. Things you used to do in a day take a week. You deserve a customized solution and that's NetSuite. Learn more when you download NetSuite's popular KPI checklist absolutely free at netsuite.com slash twist. All right, last week, Sunny Madren, I demoed a really interesting product called Make Real. It's by a startup called TL Draw. And Sunny was able to recreate the classic game of Pong in just a few minutes by drawing. We were completely blown away. AI and building of products from sketches generally falls under two pieces of the AI puzzle.

1:35You have multimodal mode where you can take images, text, video, you know, all code, data, and then create output. And then there's, of course, writing code. And those are copilots like the GitHub copilot. And Riplet has one and many other people have them. And so we have just been amazed at how many different facets of AI are coming together. And our guest today is the founder of TL Draw. His name is Steve Ruiz. And welcome to the show, Steve. Hello, hello. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you saw us playing with your tool and we were blown away. And so tell us a little bit about your company, how big it is, how long you've been working on stuff and what is TL Draw.

2:22and then what is MakeReal? Yeah, for sure. TL Draw is a company that kind of grew out of my own open source. I had started building a kind of a hackable whiteboard-like engine for myself. Basically, I created a bunch of different infinite canvas type of apps where you could zoom in and zoom out, move around kind of like Figma or Miro. And I wanted to have something that I could basically just reuse myself. They're quite complex and they're not worth building from scratch every time. So I was like, all right, I'll just kind of build all that undifferentiated parts of all those apps, kind of the middle of the Venn diagram between a Miro, a Figma and everything.

2:59And it turned out that that was a pretty popular idea, that a lot of other people had ideas about building these types of apps or building features that felt like Miro or Figma into other types of products. And it got popular enough, enough sponsorship, et cetera, that that sort of became the company. And so we have essentially spent the last two years, not quite in obscurity, but kind of in relative obscurity, building this component, this SDK for building whiteboards and whiteboard-like things called Tealdra. And we've done a bunch of different demos of how you can plug this into various technologies or how you might use it as a whiteboard or use it as an annotation layer or use it as a way of working with data or something on the canvas.

3:44When the GPT-4 Vision came out, we also picked up a project originally started by a Figma developer where they were using Teal Dry as the kind of the multimodal input to chat GPT-4 with Vision and saying, hey, here's a drawing of a website. Give me back the real website. Now, this thing came out like five hours after the API was around. So it was like almost instantaneous, but it was built on top of the canvas, which we had labored over for two years. And so you were able to express yourself very well, drop in screenshots, do whatever you wanted. And we took that and ran with it. The first thing we did, of course, was because our canvas itself is a normal website, like it's a React application all the way down.

4:23And that's how we were able to put these websites that you created back onto the canvas and even allow you to like draw on top of them as a kind of a markup strategy to create a new prompt based on the prompt that you got back last time. And it was just, I mean, I've worked in design tools. I've worked kind of in this sort of like pseudo programming languages that you might build into a kind of a no code platform. and to see the like first off to see how well this worked and how much it cut out and to watch people who'd never programmed before or never really thought of themselves as folks who can can have a creative experience with digital stuff um you know just try this kids like for the first time it was incredible and yeah it went really really viral so this tldraw isn't just to be clear an open source project.

5:10It's very popular. I see it's got, you know, looks like 28 ,000 stars on GitHub. And stars is basically how people subscribe to stuff. Yeah. GitHub, and 1600 forks. So which means people took the code base and then forked it, which means created their own flavor version of it. Yeah. So this is is getting popular in the developer community. Let's do some demos here of you know, what you're discovering. Sure. Now, as a business, you have the open source piece, but what is the business of your company? How do you make money? What's the goal here? Or is it a venture-backed business or is it a project?

5:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should say we're a venture-backed business. We've raised 4.7 so far. Funny enough, we had just closed an extension round right before this thing went viral. So in a little twist of fate. And yeah, we're early. So a bunch of VCs called you right after you closed your last round and offered you a massive uptick in your valuation and you banged your head against the wall. Oh my God, I just need to go viral and get more of these VCs on the line. We have a hard stop at seven for a good reason. Yeah. The business plan is to have this canvas become the sort of the map box of this type of experience.

6:14Just reach Ubiquity, get everywhere. And in the short term, we're licensing it. So it is open source. But at the 2.0, we're switching licenses. If you want to use this in a commercial product, you know, have a conversation with me. I'll set you up. But yeah, long story. It's a longer conversation. I mean, WordPress does the same thing, right? There's the WordPress opensourceproject.org. and then there's the wordpress.com, the commercial project. Yeah. Whatever, 40%, 50 % of the web runs on WordPress. Some of them work on wordpress.com. Other ones pop up their own servers and use the open source project.

6:46Totally get it. I think you're seeing, yeah, open core is like a big, I guess it's a big topic these days in software. And I think for us, I don't know, front end components, this is code you're giving to your users. People tend to like to read it before they hand it off. Explain open core model or costs. For sure. Yeah. So without I'm not a not exactly an open source expert, nor am I sort of open source zealot. But the general idea with open core is that you have part of your product, which is available to anyone with certain restrictions. and those could be like you cannot use this you have to use this in an open source project you can't use this in a commercial product etc etc and then you commercialize the use for which there's a the business case for it so i think map box is a well map box is a complicated example because they've sort of changed their license a few times but yeah you have libraries my sql is another one right uh that that does it this way cassandra the open source database a lot of folks have the core and cassandra is that open source database we were investors in the company data stacks um which sells you know the more enterprisey version of it so let's go to demos man demos are so good i'll talk about open source all day but i uh yeah i mean it's important for the founders for the founders who are listening it's uh there's a lot of pros and cons to doing it and the pro is very simply more people are engaged and the con is maybe you give up a little bit of control in order to get more people engaged and more richness so choose your own adventure yeah all right so let's describe what we're seeing here you're in a tldraw which just looks like a standard figma or any other drawing balsamic envision any wireframey kind of drawing software where you get arrows and you move stuff around layers and you're drawing uh what looks like um an app yeah so i have a couple of different examples here we could take one just to to get the shortest point between the uh here and where we're going basically we have a drawing here a little drawing made up of rectangles and things like that and it is a i guess it's a color picker right click to copy to copy this hex code you have a a slider between orange and pink um and a circle in the middle i'm not sure what exactly that's going to do well you click on the make real button and uh you get back a little spinner and uh speaking of monetization we have considered running ads while you wait for this thing okay so now it is a 30 second thing or not 30 second but yeah yeah just for people listening you've drawn a color wheel we've all seen a color wheel where you pick the color you want whether in microsoft word or google docs or photoshop so you've drawn what that looks like and now ai is looking at that drawing as some language model and when you said make it real it's saying how would this become code am i correct uh you know what the prompt is really really interesting the prompt is you are a web developer you specialize in making working prototypes using the low fidelity wireframes that your develop or your designers give to you you love your designers and you want them to be happy uh so when they ask you to um to make a a prototype send back a single html file use tailwind styles pull in any dependencies you need from package, use any extra code you want, you know, you need JavaScript inside of there, but just make it real, try and fill in the blanks, use what you know about applications and user interfaces in order to sort of infer the designer's intent and then send back your best guess.

10:23And we send that. We also send a picture, a screenshot essentially of whatever the user has selected. So in this case, I drew a little color picker and I selected that. We kind of took the screenshot the same one that you would screenshot if i did like you know copy as png and paste it over here basically send you this image um and we also send um well it depends what you can do and i guess what i'll do here uh as the example like they did give us back a a working little color picture here what i can do is i can double click into the iframe because again it's a single page html we can put that inside of a desktop yeah yeah and because our canvas which is very unusual and very much unlike something like miro or figma or anything our canvas is a normal website we can put that iframe back onto the canvas you know and you can you know rotate it and resize it and move it around and draw on top of it and everything um it's just like a normal thing on the canvas but it is a working interactive website so i can double click in and i can move this slider and yeah sure enough it changes that color from uh from pink to orange and it gives us the hex code and i'm pretty sure i can copy this yeah uh and you know let's see if it yeah it gave me it on the clipboard as well which is so this would normally be you know you have one person who's wireframing a product manager a ceo a founder whatever um and then you have somebody who might do a quick html prototype so you've compressed those two things and you've eliminated you know somebody doing repetitive simple work all right founders always ask me for pitch deck punch-ups.

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13:13M-I-R-O dot com slash startups. That's Miro.com slash startups to sign up for free. This can then, I guess, be published. What would be the next step that you would do with this color wheel if you wanted to incorporate it? Like you need hosting, you need to publish it somewhere. So can I take this little, I'll call it a widget and be old school. Some people might call it an app, whatever. Can I take this and publish it to a URL? Yeah. So it kind of already is. So I can, I have a little, you know, drop down here and we have a couple of different things that we can do with this. And by the way, just, we could also keep going and I'll show you what I mean in a second.

13:51One thing I can do is I can copy the HTML to my clipboard and paste it into a file, you know, look at it, edit it, whatever. I can also copy a link. Okay. And that link basically is this website. Ah, so you could open that up in a URL or I could send it to friends. I could tweet it. Yeah, right on. So I have my URL right there. And I can also open it in CodeSandbox. So CodeSandbox is a web-based IDE where, let's see, I'll close this one. Yeah, here's our that. And then normally we would have code on the left. Let me give that a little refresh here. Otherwise, I'll show you the other demo. IDE for those people listening, integrated development environment.

14:36Integrated development environment here. Basically, a browser window where you can write and publish code. So this is incredible. But show me, you said you could iterate. So let's have a little iteration here, huh? Maybe. Cool. So again, the thing that we got back from ChatGPT, we put in an iframe. We put the iframe on the canvas. So you can think of it that, you know, it looks like a picture of a website, though we know that it's an interactive website. But we could treat it like a picture and we could draw on top of it. So let's say I wanted to say, I mean, maybe you can give me some ideas here as well.

15:10Let's make this full size. Full size window, maybe. Let's make our annotations red. I think there's something in the prompt about treating red as an annotation. Maybe I want this text that says click to copy. I want that to be like, what is it called? Start case? Sure. And so what you're doing here is you're annotating the mock-up of the color wheel. And you're just using an arrow and just writing notes as if you were writing notes in Figma or any other whiteboarding or design software. Yeah, this is amazing. And you could put in, show me a more playful font. oh yeah yeah sure so this is like a really weird what does it mean playful font you know yeah i think this is good enough to to the start so okay this time uh well yeah i'll do this like use a more playful uh fonts and uh i'm just putting that as a text uh above um sometimes what i was also like you would do on a whiteboard like you do on a whiteboard yeah what's wild about this and what is kind of like the running theme of all this multimodal stuff is that like yeah just pretend you're sending this to a person like what would you use to send to a person the uh the other things that that are funny is that uh if you encourage it or threaten it um either one kind of gives you a better result so like uh you know you can do it uh go for it isn't that the weirdest thing about yeah is if you keep giving them encouragement they keep trying so i don't know if we're what's that word uh andromorphizing when you kind of anthropomorphizing yeah anthropomorphize like are we anthropomorphizing where we're projecting into these language models that they you know feel good with positive reinforcement or is it just that when you give positive reinforcement it does a couple more iterations i don't know but you know when i tell it add more puppies or more rainbows or make it even more american when i was playing with dolly the other day it would just come back with something that was even more delicious i did like make me pasta spaghetti and i said make it even more delicious make it absurdly more delicious and when i did that it just kept adding you know more basil and steam and everything to my plate of pasta the image it was pretty nuts i think it's yeah i think they're kind of like meeting us halfway there in terms of the uh the the treating as human okay so we have this website we've drawn on top of it we said like okay make this button capitalize the first letters of all these sentences make the thing the full height of the window, et cetera, use a more playful font.

17:47And we've drawn that kind of as markup on top of the website. And then we selected all that markup, including the website itself. And we use that as the new prompt to make real. So we sent that back and we got a couple of things. It ignored a couple of things. It got a few things wrong and a few things, right? The pink thing still works. the font is certainly more playful you know it's rounded edges etc it lost our clicked copy button that's interesting and it ignored all my comments about start case and casing so we could draw that click to copy button back in there amazing and keep going but basically what you're doing here Like a lot of employees, they may not listen, is what you've proven.

18:43They may not listen. As a manager, you may ask your employees, do something. They may be tired. They could have gotten in a fight with their spouse. They have a sick kid, and they forget to put the button back in. And you got to be kind to the. Things happen, you know? Yeah, AI overlord. Maybe they didn't have a cup of coffee yet. Maybe tell them, hey, get a cup of coffee, come back. Yeah, that's true. And let's keep going here. Be kind to your AI slave. The fun part about this is that, like, and I guess I won't go too far with this one, because it seems to really insist on, oh wait, it is copying.

19:13It's just an invisible button. Very strange. Ah, very strange. Oh, what the heck is that? Look, it's there. Yeah, it is there. Oh, maybe the font thing threw it off. Maybe it's my font stuff. Is it there on this too? See, I didn't give. It is there. It is there. Look, it's, wow. This is kind of weird, yeah. So this is where, you know, we're still in early days. I don't want to say hallucinate, but, you know, the understanding and reasoning that we project into language models is, you know, So I've heard some people call it a parlor trip, and then I've heard other people say it's reasoning. And so somewhere between those two is the reality.

19:46And I think everything that's been done in web design has been incorporated into these models. The entire corpus of open source has been put into these models. And so in every blog post, medium post, YouTube video, they're all getting incorporated into this. So I guess in a way it is a parlor trick that it, I digested all this stuff. And when you're making a color wheel, it knows, you know, to, to restate what color wheel information it has, but it is kind of reasoning and it, and it wants to try to figure out what is playful, right. Or what is more delicious mean for spaghetti? What would make spaghetti more delicious?

20:24And it's like meatballs, more sauce, you know, and because it might've found a document that said if you want to make this even more delicious add more sauce parlor trick or actual knowledge i mean i don't know how you think about this let's get philosophical for a second about what's going on inside of models do you believe we're recreating consciousness and how the human brain works or that we're simulating that on silicon um what does your gut tell you for for me yeah curious this this feels much more like having worked with creative tools for for years and years like you come to know those creative tools not not as you know intelligences but as like patterns as um as as behaviors that you kind of accommodate what that tool can do well and what that tool can do poorly and you kind of steer towards those things that can do well this is part of why you know good tools are really important because they kind of expand not necessarily those things that you can do but those things that you can do with the least amount of friction.

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21:59No. Equinix provides on-demand infrastructure in over 25 major cities. And here's the best part. They have an amazing startup program for you. The Equinix startup program offers personalized consultations and guidance from the Equinix team. And of course, you'll get up to$100 ,000 in startup credits. So here's what I want you to do. Head to equinixstartups.com to apply. And when you apply, James from Equinix is going to reach out to you directly. That's equinixstartups.com to apply. E-Q-U-I-N-I-X startups.com. ChatGPT, all this type of stuff actually feels very, very familiar to me just having worked with creative tools.

22:39And maybe it's not just creative tools, but those might just be the ones that I've worked the most with. in this case we have input and output and it's it seems to be misinterpreting the the input as different output fun fact on this i did a check to see what image are we pulling out of this thing um and funny enough the uh the colors um maybe it was was pulling out of this one the uh yeah the colors on um oh look at that fun one of these buttons was yeah exactly like the the fonts weren't loading correctly and the colors weren't loading correctly so there was like no information for it to to work from so in that case it was a failure not necessarily of of the model working from correct input and producing correct incorrect output it was working from in a way like in incorrect input it just yeah we didn't know it and that feels very familiar like yeah for having worked with creative tools like well and i think you're you're you're correcting your interpretation of it we we may be just we may have over indexed on the magic of our brains and not realize that like a lot of what we do is pattern recognition and we finish each other's sentences and when we make jokes we have an archive of what's funny from a lifetime of hearing jokes or watching comedic comedians etc and so a lot of what we do is you know memetic you know repetitive patterns and we may believe that we're more creative when in fact we're more pattern seeking and pattern identifying and regurgitating machines we just prefer to call it creativity right yeah let's do one more demo here you have some more down here so here we have uh let's see which one do you want to do i'm gonna try and pick one that's a little bit harder maybe the um so one I guess it's really up to you, Jason.

24:36I like this one. This is a stopwatch, right? Is that a stopwatch app? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do the stopwatch app because everybody knows this. The fun part about this, in this case, I have on the screen a really simple image of a stopwatch. And then I also have a state chart, essentially like a state machine that I've drawn talking about how this thing should work. Got it. And there's even a note there saying, like, use this to determine how the state UI should work. but this is just the state chart in other words don't render this so come up with your own yeah and I could even make it just to go back to what you were saying I'm just going to send a prompt where I just do a box and I write the words kitchen timer here as the prompt so I'm going to put this one over here and then I'm going to send only the user interface of the thing that I drew.

25:32And this user interface looks exactly like your timer on your iPhone where it has add minutes, add seconds, start, stop, reset. Just a standard egg timer, let's say. And then I'm going to send the UI and the state machine together and then just for fun I'm also going to send just the state machine without the UI. This is very interesting. So you drew the UI, the state machine basically says, hey, click this button and it runs it stops and it's you know it's kind of think of it like a a flow chart of what's supposed to happen if you're not familiar yeah precisely and so here we go what you're showing us is hey you can give a prompt the ui and the state chart the flow chart or you can give just a flow chart or you can give just the state chart or you can give just the the image and we're going to see all three outputs wow this is exciting yeah yeah so it's got exactly it's got like either or plus a little bit of extra instruction.

26:28Okay, let's make it real. Yeah. And what's fun is that these prompts, by the way, don't have the words kitchen timer anywhere. That has to be inferred from here. Whereas this one, all we've given it is kitchen timer and nothing else. Wow. And what's fun is that - This is incredible. And what you'll see sometimes like people doing demos where they draw a calculator and then they click, you know, they write calculator on it and click whatever make real and it shows a calculator. And that's pretty cool. but also sometimes you could just send the calculator or just send the word calculator because as you said it knows what those things look like so in this case we have a kitchen timer i can reset it i can start it i sent this one was made this only the prompt kitchen timer here created literally the code an app widget whatever you want to call it html basically which start stop reset and it's functional hey yeah pretty great it works wonderful now we now we have the one where we only sent it the uh the user interface so we didn't give it any information about what it was we didn't say this is a kitchen timer we didn't say like these are what the buttons should do um and it did recreate that pretty well the question is like does this do anything yeah and so in this one we had plus minutes plus seconds so you could set a one minute and 40 second timer and you could stop and start it and reset it if you hit the reset button does it reset?

27:47It does. It does. Okay, so in both cases it did what it was supposed to do. The only thing it's gotten wrong is that it adds 10 seconds rather than 1 second. So it's kind of... I mean, I wonder how it made that decision. It probably is there are other timers that do it in 10 second increments that are found on the web and it's part of the language model corpus. And then here's the one where we've sent it the state chart and the user interface together. Okay. And in this case, the user interface looks kind of like a website kind of looks like a hybrid of these two. Wow, the first two, you're right.

28:21It has blue tiles and it decided that reset should be red and start should be green and that is what we do in the US. Green means go, red means stop. Got it. Sadly, it does not work. And it doesn't work. Okay, great. It doesn't work. I forget which one we did together. That one must be just the state chart. Just the state chart, exactly. And let's see if this works. This works correctly as well. wow this is unbelievable what's fun is it even tells you what the state is whether it's running whether it's stopped um you know whether it's whatever so i think the fun part about this is not not only just the the wow of um making things you know websites working websites and it is very addictive especially when you get into these long iteration chains because you are able to to push it into making things that are quite complex if you go to our twitter at twitter x whatever at tldraw or twitter um x.com slash tldraw there you go there you go uh dozens of these things where people are like yeah we've made this game with my kid or i made this thing with my uh you know with my project manager yeah you're able to get like push it into really really complex stuff and and um tweak it and modify your your thing or whatever uh but it's also just this amazing playground to explore multimodal prompting um and to to have a way of doing what we just did which was run four prompts simultaneously, you know, using slightly tweaked things.

29:47So I think the canvas, like TealDraw just in general is just going to become, well, my hope for it is that it is a great environment for exploring some of these models. So many ways to go with this business. What do you think you're going to do? Just make it 25 bucks a month and call it a day and just so you can get a thousand people or a million people to pay that? What's your plan? Yeah. What are you thinking about in a business model? So TealDraw.com is... was our little uh demo essentially for for tealdra uh it was like a free and it still is a free white whiteboard um there's no login there is collaboration and the collaboration is really really good and we have like 8 000 people a day using it incredible like uniques which is wonderful i don't really want to be in the business of doing like a sas product and whiteboarding i think the incumbents they're pretty pretty happy with where they're at and i don't know i don't think the world needs another Miro, but the world might need like 10 ,000 more Miro's or little Miro's.

30:43Miro's amazing. We love Miro, a sponsor of our show. And we've used it a ton. Great, great, great product. But, you know, people want to make things that Miro is not going to make, right? So Miro could be your, you know, standard platform, but you know, you may want to do other things. And I was going to say there was a time where like every, you know, if you saw a Kanban board, people were using Trello, right? Kanban boards are everywhere. It's just like a really good paradigm for a certain way of working. I think the canvas is the same way. There's never really been a good way to get started unless the canvas was like your only thing.

31:19Yeah. And Teal Draw sort of is filling that. Okay. Your business gets to a certain size and we know the cracks start to emerge. Things that you used to do in a day are now taking a week or a month. you have too many manual processes. You know that. And you don't have one single source of truth. If this is you, you should know these three numbers. 37 ,000, 25, 1. 37 ,000? That's the number of businesses which have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle. You know NetSuite. It's the number one cloud financial system. Streamlining accounting, financial management, inventory, HR and more. 25. NetSuite turns 25 this year.

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32:39netsuite.com slash twist. I hope people take this and run with it. The business plan, or at least what to do with this is much closer to empowering those dozens, hundreds, thousands of folks who see this and say like wow this is great but instead of using uh drawing and text and screenshots and whatever in order to make websites let's do uh full stack apps let's do python configurations or something like that like let's do back-end stuff or let's do uh literally any design output any technical output that you can imagine that has some way of rendering it visually as the input or just take screenshots of text who cares back to the business model what do you think Is it like a freemium, like maybe get a certain amount of features or cycles and then, hey, please upgrade.

33:28Or maybe the collaboration mode is the mode where you start paying and you can do bottom up, like three people can collaborate on something. But when you get past that, somebody's got to have a paid account. What are you thinking business model-wise here? Yeah. I mean, those are essentially all those features that you described kind of fit into the TealDraw as an end user product category. and we're still thinking about this as a essentially a developer tool uh infrastructure product okay um so i would i mean we might need at some point to be like well we're using an api key uh we want to make this available to everyone without having to figure out what an api key right is right now you have to enter your own which is sure that so we're gonna we're gonna you know make it part of like a premium premium offering of some sort where do we wind up with all these different models on Hugging Face.

34:17And then you saw Google's new offering from DeepMind, which was super impressive. ChatGPT4, maybe ChatGP5 comes out early. There's like 20 different models that you could probably use to accomplish what you're accomplishing. I'm assuming you're using OpenAI's model to start. Yeah, well, it's really the only set of eyes that you could get, at least at the moment. I know that the team at Google have been poking around this repo. So my hope is that we see something with Gemini fairly soon. My real hope is that TealDraw becomes kind of like the battleground on which these different models can really compete.

34:57It's like, you know, how does this prompt do when it's up against something else? You can be independent of the model. you build your software when you say make this you could say make it with you know google microsoft open ai rock whatever it is or you could say make it with all four and then just see how they all do if you have keys for all four and then you know if you want to abstract it i could just give you 100 bucks a month and you give me a you know a thousand renders and i pay 10 cents a render and who cares uh and i just you abstract that and you show me all five and then you could have another language model say which of these five did the best job in your estimation have you tried that yet because we had those four timers have you ever had a language model say which one of these do you think would be the best timer to give to consumers uh no and my god is there's so much more that we could do here yeah well that's what i'm always thinking about is like i'm always asking well what's the next step yeah and the next step here is can somebody vet this and make sure it works Well, why don't you have a language model, make sure it works, and then tell the model that got it wrong, hey, this doesn't work.

36:05So that second tier prompt, the third tier prompt, is kind of interesting, right? And this is where you get into agents, right? And so I'm so impressed by what you're doing. Everybody go check out TLDraw, x.com slash TLDraw, type TLDraw into what you're doing. How many people you got at the company now? This is an early stage startup, you raised your Series A? Six, going on seven, going on eight, yeah. All right, all right. Well, maybe you got to keep a slicey poo for your bestie, J. Cal, to make a little investment here. I may need to slide a little slicing here. I'm so impressed. There's going to be another round, for sure.