How AI splits startups into winners and losers | E2322

23:05But there's none of them on the ground, right?

23:08Lon Harris:Yeah, exactly. There's none on the ground, U.S. And the reason there's none on the ground is what? I mean, we know we have these legacy ones. We know the Trump administration has been very pro and they broke the logjam here, which I think you should give them credit for. We all should give them credit for. But if small modular reactors are being produced for submarines, why aren't they, you know, powering a data center right now? Yeah, the way that we've at least looked at it, because I think everybody might have a slightly different opinion on this. But from my perspective, when I was building BlueCore, I think about it as like a supply chain production and distribution opportunity, right?

23:47Like that is the challenge. So from a supply chain standpoint, a lot of times you're building large scale industrial plants. But now if you build them smaller, that actually allows you to get into production. then when you're thinking about distribution a lot of them typically you have to go and like excavate into the land and go get the right permits and put them right in the right spots even if you want to build a new home let alone like a nuclear reactor that's that's an you know extensive process but for a lot of rural communities that are landlocked that's going to be phenomenal like that's going to be really helpful um and so for us it's like when you when you get a barge these barges are they can be literally like football stadium size amount of real estate and you can move them around very, very quickly.

24:30And so I just, I don't know if, I came to that conclusion by spending a lot of time at the port and working on electric ships. It may not necessarily be obvious to everyone, but we've been really fortunate because the port's been excited and AI data centers are also getting excited about it. And so I think when you actually get production to the right pace, right? Like treat this more like an automotive exercise, then you can get the cost down to make it economical. And then you have a lot of the macro level trends from regulations that are really eager and working deeply with industry to understand in depth how to support.

25:06And so the combination of that where you have the private sector, there's venture capital following a lot of these startups. You have production facilities that can ramp up and actually get the economics to the right spot. And then you have the regulation that now is keeping pace with industry and in a special way. I think that's the like once in a generation dynamic that's happening, not just for us, but I think for a lot of small modular reactor companies, too. You mentioned the port. You're actually at the port of Long Beach right now. That's where you're in my old my old hometown of Los Angeles.

25:36And I'm so fascinated because when we think about new data center projects, new energy projects, there's so much resistance. And I would think of Los Angeles, Long Beach being one of those places that would put up a lot of resistance. Are you getting any pushback or is this so like when you're doing things at the port and you're doing things offshore, people kind of don't notice that it's happening? Yeah. You know, we stayed in we stayed in stealth very intentionally for the first portion of our business because I wanted to actually have the direct conversations with the local leaders here. So, like, you know, spend time with the mayor, spend time with the CEO of the port, spend time with all the communities that that care and are going to hopefully be able to get this like zero emission energy.

26:16my wife's a pediatrician in the area we're local here you know we care about the impact of clean energy on kids and you know our facility i wanted it to be based here so that everybody understands that when we say it's safe we are literally standing right next to it we like we care about

26:30Lon Harris:that right and you plan on making your own reactor yeah exactly so you're not just buying one of these you're making them and then you're going to put them on a barge and then the barge has a tether a cable that goes to the port of long beach or to the city of long beach and provides energy is that how this is going to work yeah exactly our barge i mean put in perspective i got the bars that's sitting right outside like if you check out anything on our website or pictures or videos i got that from san diego so i went down to san diego um was was talking with uh one of the leaders who who own that barge and he's so helpful um and i was like okay we'll take it he's like great i was like he's like when do you need it i was like i need it in a few days He's like, awesome, they'll be there.

27:11And they got it to the minute they were able to deliver it when I asked for it.

27:16Lon Harris:How far offshore is the barge going to be? This is the obvious question people are going to have. How far offshore is it going to be? And then who has jurisdiction? And when does jurisdiction end? I'm curious. Yeah, so far, depending on who you talk to, I mean, we work with American Bureau of Shipping, Coast Guard, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Department of Energy. We embed ourselves deeply with everybody to make sure we have the right guidance on this. but you know up to you know 12 or so miles you're traditionally like still within like u.s territory uh and so our barge doesn't really care how far it needs to go out and then the subsea cables don't really care and then the reactor is going to work no matter where it's at so it really becomes more of a question of just like what is everyone's comfort level from a regulatory perspective like the actual reactor and the shielding and everything that we do is incredibly safe and because it's small, the footprint of it is actually contained to the barge.

28:07So there isn't like a actual like structural reason why we have to be pushed out. But from, you know, perception, if it makes life easier for everybody else, we're able to go further out and then just run those subsea cables back and everybody gets the benefit of that, that electricity.

28:21Lon Harris:Is the United States the right place to do this? Or are there other geographies where they might be more open to this, who already embrace nuclear and need the power more. I'm thinking about islands because islands typically are getting gasoline. If you go to Hawaii, they're still shipping gasoline to Hawaii, Elon, and burning to get islands. And they have a limited amount of space for solar. So you have this sort of double or triple incentive. They don't have room for solar. They're already putting in gas and they've got plenty of water around them it's all coastline um so when you pick where you're going to install the first couple of these what's the best geography to do this yeah i'd say the u.s is the best place right like the innovation the hunger even the like appetite right now for um zero emission and then also nuclear like it is one of the best if not the best place that we could be doing this and I don't even know if it'd be possible if we had the support of a lot of what's happening in the U.S.

29:29right now. But we are getting a lot of inbound and a lot of enthusiasm also all around the world. And so we want to think about ourselves as a global company that's able to support any place that needs access to clean energy. But we're starting here in the U.S. and so far it's been going well.

29:47Lon Harris:Hey everybody, I'm here with Keith Paris. He is the founder of lightfield they are an ai native crm and it builds and it updates itself in real time based on whatever's in your email your calendar your slack your meeting notes you know all the most important stuff that keeps getting lost uh great to be here you decided you would create a crm based on ai what is that so it's two things our crm is freak um you know we don't sell software uh it's a fully functioning crm and we only charge when we do great work for you so we just have a completely different business model than a SaaS CRM. And then second, when I think about what goes into an AI native CRM, first, it has to fill itself out automatically.

30:28It shouldn't require reps to update things. It shouldn't require manual entry, manual input. Second, it should be automatically working for you in the background. It should be finding you new accounts. It should be reaching out to folks that have gone dark for you. It should be uncovering roadmap opportunities for you all in the background while you're out selling and building.

30:50Lon Harris:So you're making it so I don't have to spend my life working for my CRM. My CRM works for me. Exactly. Everybody go check out lightfield.app. What is the answer to, oh my God, this is going to be a floating Chernobyl, a floating Fukushima. I don't feel that way, obviously. But I do think we do have a lot of environmentalists. People care deeply about the ocean and we had the BP oil spill on and that was disastrous. I don't think people are logical enough to be such an easy lift to say, look, here are your choices. BP oil spill or this barge gets caught in a tsunami. It flips over. And what happens?

31:32Lon Harris:And how do you deal with that eventuality, Kofi? Yeah. And I think you called it right. The status quo is inherently dangerous today and so that's the first thing that i think independent of you know where you you fall on the spectrum of enthusiasm for nuclear or like you know any sort of fear for it you realize that the status quo today is not safe it's explosive right for a lot of the the the actual baseline of what exists the uh you think about the impact on the environment like Like I was mentioning with my wife being a pediatrician, we talk about this on like a daily basis. Like right now, kids do not need to be exposed to the type of air that's happening.

32:17And so that is the status quo. When you then start to introduce -

32:21Lon Harris:The air from natural gas you're referring to. From natural gas. Exactly. People don't understand. You know, Trump loves that nat gas. We got a lot of it. We're, you know, drill baby, drill. Putting aside how anybody feels about global warming, pollution is a real, it's not just noise pollution. although that is a thing that people are complaining about these data centers, but you have the external thing. So let's get right into it, Kofi. You must be doing scenario planning. There will be a storm. A barge will sink. It's just a matter of when or how something will happen. What happens in that instance if a barge were to flip over and sink?

32:59Yeah, absolutely. And so the piece that I was sharing earlier, right, like status quo isn't the way that we want to continue to operate. I think universally it's understood that we need to get more energy, plus we need to find other solutions that are cleaner. Independent of what side of the aisle you're on, you kind of agree nuclear or you agree zero emission. And so that's a universal piece that we're finding right now. For our system right now, there are a couple of things that we're really proud of and why we feel very comfortable about it. One, the actual team that's pulling this together, they are nuclear scientists who have done this multiple times.

33:37We have Navy nuclear submarine officers who have the highest standard of quality and safety. They literally will go operate reactors in like the middle of the ocean and stealth missions and keep everybody safe. And so that's the like at the core of our foundation. We are building with that. The other piece is the actual best place for these reactors. They're water cooled. And so you have an infinite amount of water around you that you can always use. nothing comes out but you can always have more cooling mechanisms around you so it's actually the safest place for it and then when you think about this from like the bottoms up which is probably helpful for people to process it's like you have these like uranium pellets and they're cladded in a fuel rod that's also cladded and shielded and a fuel assembly which also has this protection and a reactor pressure vessel that has this protection with a dome around it that has this protection with another dome with multiple control mechanisms that all independently turn off it's literally probably the highest bar for redundancy and safety on top of the fact that you've actually made it much smaller and so for industrial plants they may need hundreds like four or five hundred fuel assemblies for ours you know you might need like a handful and so the footprint of what's actually you know possible in terms of proliferation is like so tiny and also contained to this like this very dense dome so when you're thinking about it being out in the ocean and water right even the like thermal portions of it like even any extra heat that comes from it is smaller and marginal compared to what status quo is with the traditional power trains that are already out there and so overall we've you know we feel feel really good about that and you don't need to worry

35:17Lon Harris:about this too much lon you know why nine nuclear submarines i just looked it up uh are at the bottom of the ocean i think one or two have been recovered sure yeah do you know how many had like any kind of cataclysmic release i mean i don't think i've ever i don't think i've ever heard of that i know there was that one tom cruise had to dive down into to retrieve the uh the enigma machine or whatever but the fresher uss thresher sank april uh 10th 1963 uss scorpion lost in 1968 The 8 rest 460 miles southwest of the azures. K-27 had a little bit of leakage. K-219 went down in Bermuda. I mean, these things have happened many times, and we already have the evidence, Kofi.

36:04Lon Harris:They don't—and these are the old ones, and they haven't leaked. Related, we've got a question that's come up a few times in the chat room now. Jason Turner, Fat Dot, a few others. They're wondering about waste. When we think of nuclear fission, we think of like, well, is there radioactive waste? Is there radioactive waste from small modular reactors? And what happens with that when it's out at sea? Yeah. So the two things, one, exactly what you're saying, Jason, right? Like there have already been submarines that are at the bottom of the ocean and have nothing to do with the propulsion just for other reasons.

36:38They sank. And that's even what our Navy nuclear submarine officer had offered to us, right? Like when you think about this. And those are very different levels of enrichment for fuel. So one is like very high levels of enrichment that we are never going to get access to from like a commercial standpoint. And ours is like pretty much the most like commercially available, like low grade enrichment level. So just wildly, wildly different on that side. And then you really only have to refill these once every couple of years. And so when you're thinking about like the waste, it's so small. Plus, the NRC has already done a great job of making sure that there are clear guidelines and compliances that you need to follow.

37:22So we're not the ones needing to create that. Industrial plants do this at a massive scale already for the last 70 years. You might even be driving on the highway next to a distribution of where some things are located and not even know. And so these things are happening. Our job is not necessarily to create new science or a new way of doing this. We actually want to be incredibly pragmatic and make sure that we fit into the guidelines that have already been able to keep us safe.

37:53Lon Harris:And in the worst case scenario, Lon, I just looked it up, when these things are in 5 ,000 feet deep, you're not going to recover them, right? It's just too much lift. But even the smaller ones I'm reading here, you know, this one, the Kursk, that was only in 330 feet of water, which, you know, I've scuba dived to 115 feet without any special gear. That recovery costs$65 million. It's not a big deal to go recover them if they're in one of these situations. And since they haven't proven to leak, there really should be no reason we're not doing this. When will you have the first one, best case scenario, realistic scenario, Kofi, in the market, and then running a startup?

38:37Lon Harris:How do you keep your startup alive when you're in such an unpredictable, highly regulated space? Two questions. Take it either way. Yeah. Yeah, great question. I've been fortunate because I started my career off. I was, I think, really blessed to just be at Uber at the right time when we were doing the Advanced Technology Group and launching Uber Freight. And so I had a chance to be a part of that and then felt the same way with the aerospace company where we're building an autonomous hybrid electric aircraft, highly regulated space. And then the same previous to this with like electric ships.

39:09So I've had an opportunity to be in deep tech thinking about how do you manage capital, stay capital efficient, hit milestones, be pragmatic, get to market quickly. And we're taking a lot of those learnings and applying them here. I mean, in the last couple of months, we just started the company in January this year. We've been very capital efficient to get here. When I think about what is in front of us, the biggest things that I'm really excited about is that we're not necessarily needing to invent anything from scratch. There are some things that we're going to do naturally that are IP for us that we feel like are going to just improve safety and be a net positive for economics, for production.

39:51But for that reason, you know, when we go talk to suppliers, they give us estimates and we can actually make our ideas off of those estimates. And so it's not like we have to build everything from scratch situation. And for that reason, we think we're less than a few years away from actually being able to create like meaningful electricity, like on the order of like tens of thousands of homes worth of electricity, even for the port or for any of the data centers that have reached out.

40:16Lon Harris:So you're saying three to five years, you might be able to stand one of these up. Department of Energy, Department of War, Trump administration, Chris Wright, they are fully on board with nuclear. They're on board with all solutions. So what's the relationship with the government? Have they contracted you yet? And then explain what this administration's policy has been and how that's affected the space and investing in the space. Yeah, you know, we had a really special opportunity a few weeks ago to actually be over at the Department of Transportation, the Secretary of Transportation's press conference room, where we had a pretty historic moment, like the Long Beach Port, the Department of Transportation, MARAD as well.

40:59we were all there and kind of signed this moment where we were able to say that we want to enable commercial nuclear energy in ports. And so this is the largest port in the U.S. And I think that wouldn't be possible without the collaboration at the federal and at the local level, mixed with industry, mixed with venture capital. And also, we got to give credit to a lot of, from the ground up, thinking about these local communities, a lot of people have arrived at the similar conclusion. that we need to have more energy and that nuclear has been one of the safest forms of being able to do that especially when you can make it smaller and so to my pleasant surprise sometimes whenever i'm talking about this you'll have i'll have groups even though the port will keep the doors open we'll have people walk over and be like i've been thinking about this like i've actually you know there's enthusiasm or excitement um and so i think the perceptions change and you know it's credit to federal, local, industry, venture capital, groups like you all as well, who are sharing the message about nuclear and asking the right questions.

42:02And I'm trying to make myself accessible because that's the goal. We want to democratize access to clean energy. And so, so far, it's been trending really positively. It's been great working with everybody. We talked so much about data centers in space, Jason. We're now talking about data centers at see. Maybe it's going to be both just like, as long as we get them out of away from our, away from our cities. Kofi, thank you so much for, for being here and joining us. Of course. Thanks for having me.

42:26Lon Harris:Of course. Yeah. Thanks Kofi. Wow. It's just so great, Lon. If we look at the energy issue, I think what these data centers have done is they have created a buyer and they've created the demand side. Right. And then you have the administration saying, Hey, wait a second, we need to be independent of oil from the Middle East. We need to be energy independent. And the public is like, yeah, I don't see the public fighting against nuclear the way they once did. So something has changed here. There's a generational. If you grew up and Chernobyl happened and Three Mile Island happened, You add or or even just like the boomer, like get under your desk in case there's nuclear fallout.

43:14You know what? If the explosions start happening. I think if you live through that Cold War nuclear terror stuff, it has a huge symbolic meaning for you. And it's terrifying. And I think if you're alive in the last 25, 30 years. Yeah, it's that, you know, in Japan, that one thing went wrong. But I don't think it's drilled in. It's become as archetypal a thing to fear as it was when I was a kid. and everybody was terrified of the world being destroyed by nuclear science.

43:41Lon Harris:There was, you know, it's so interesting how pop culture, your wheelhouse, plays into this. You had, you know, two nuclear bombs go off, Nagasaki, Fukushima, and Hiroshima. Okay, that really impacted people. How could it not? Those people. How could that imagery not impact you, of course? And rightfully so. So, but then when we were growing up in the 80s, and I think this might've been right before your time, there was this move, this TV movie, The Day After Tomorrow. Yeah, no, I know it, I'll look up the title. It was British, I believe. No, there was an American one because it was terrifying for me as like a 14 or 15 year old.

44:24Lon Harris:The Day After, it's 1983. So yes, I was only five years old. I wasn't allowed to watch this. I was 12. Directly Nicholas Meyer, the guy who did Wrath of Khan. What do you know? There you go. This movie was so terrifying of, you know, what would happen after a nuclear war. And I was like the last generation, I think, Gen Xers that had our parents talking about this fear of like a nuclear holocaust. Everything blows up, the Russians, etc. And that spilled over with the No Nukes concert. And the No Nukes concert, I believe, was 78. And all these artists, Bob Dylan, etc. It was 1979. It was 1979. Bruce Springsteen got it together, but I'll look up who else was there.

45:09Lon Harris:Yeah. So you had the No Nukes concert, which was no nuclear power. Then you had the fear of nuclear bombs going off everywhere. And this set a 30-year, I think, chilling effect on the space. Now, hey, if you can have sustained energy, we're going to be sitting here, I think, in another generation 10 to 20 years from now, the end of our lifetimes, Lon, nuclear and solar and unlimited clean energy are just going to be there because of this specific moment in time. AI is driving the customer base. And then governments now, with the exception of, you know, like say the EU, which is a bit de-cell on this, you know, they shut down the nuclear reactors in Germany.

45:55Lon Harris:Yes. After Fukushima, yeah. Yeah. And here we are. It's now obvious to everybody, this technology is safer than oil. This technology is safer than oil. Let that sink in. Do you want to put rigs in the ocean that drill down thousands of feet into the ocean floor and there's no way to close those? Right. And there are now hundreds of these oil rigs in the Gulf and nobody is cleaning them up. They're like abandoned and there's a very slow process of dismantling them. It's a real problem of this pollution of wells. And this would all be solved by solar, batteries and nuclear. Let's do it, folks. I think every form of energy has pluses and minuses of people get so caught up in the negative aspects of all of these different technologies that they forget.

46:48Like, well, we do have to pick one. At some point we have to pick one or we can go back to caves and living in the woods or whatever. But if we like our cities and we like our way of life, we have to figure out, you know, well, maybe despite all, you know, windmills aren't pretty looking, but maybe it's worth having.

47:04Lon Harris:I think we've solved this issue and we're just in the like contours of the last throes of lunatics not thinking logically about it. And, you know, if you look at this administration, I got to give them a lot of credit because, you know, in the prior couple of administrations, there was no progress on nuclear. It was just frozen. Obama, Biden, Trump won. It just never moved past. Right. Right. You know, nobody had the courage to say, hey, let's explore this. Let's get this back on the table. It's a bit of a third rail. I think a lot of politicians didn't want to be seen as the guy who wants to put a nuclear plant back in your town or whatever.

47:45Lon Harris:But yeah. And now you don't just put it right now. It's hard to argue with. Let's send them out to sea. It's like out of sight, out of mind. Great. That's perfect. We're kicking off our our weight loss competition. I'll wait on that a little bit. We've got a special guest waiting. But first, we'll do some rapid fire news. We got to talk about ByteDance. According to the Financial Times, the giant Chinese company behind TikTok and CapCut, they are trading an AI model with up to 10 trillion parameters, Jason. That's three times the size of Kimi K3, the current largest model in China record holder.

48:20And it's the same ballpark. We don't know exactly how many parameters are in Mythos 5, the anthropic model. They have not disclosed. Most people think it's around$8 trillion. So this would be$2 trillion parameters more than Anthropics' frontier cutting-edge model. It's currently in pre-training. That takes about three to six months. ByteDance founder and chairman Zhang Yiming told the team working on it that they are aiming for a world-leading model capability. So do you think that there is a chance ByteDance genuinely takes over? This crown is the maker of the world's most popular AI model. And how do you feel about the TikTok company controlling the world's most powerful, largest AI model?

49:02Lon Harris:I think we're seeing the commodification of the models. If everybody can build a model and all it requires is data sets, distillation. And, you know, we talked about, hey, some people are selling the Chinese data sets. Right, including, you know, big, big, you know, American Mercore, Surge, like some of our biggest companies. According to Forbes, there was an article in Forbes. Yeah. Yeah, these companies that are training these sort of elite data sets based on human experts, they're selling them both to American labs and to the Chinese labs. Micro One, our company didn't. They came to me and said, what do you think?

49:41Lon Harris:And I was like, ooh, I don't think the Trump administration is going to feel too great, nor will it look good to Americans that were taking American data sets and selling them to the Chinese open source community. As much as I love open source, that felt to me like, I don't want to say not patriotic, but I don't want to say traitorous. I would not say that. I mean, these data sets. I would say it does feel a little not patriotic. These data sets, it's not like military intelligence that we're selling to the Chinese, but it's definitely scientific engineering. I mean, they're hiring STEM experts at companies like Merkur to train these models and make these data sets.

50:19Lon Harris:I would assume. I would assume. And, you know, again, I don't want to say any of this is known for a fact, et cetera. These are just early reports, so I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. And I don't think anybody's breaking the law here. Also, it's important to say that. Sure. It's just we're in unfound territory here. So shipping a bunch of American knowledge from American experts to China, that feels wrought with tension. And we didn't necessarily used to think about data that way. I mean, other than classified data or sensitive data, just like data every day, you know, numbers. We didn't think about it as a potential national security threat.

50:54But now that that's how you make a world-class AI model, I think we're refocusing on what the rules ought to be.

51:00Lon Harris:Well, if this is that powerful, and it's basically pretty clear that China is catching up. If these reports are accurate, if this is like a zero-distillization kind of model because they have so much data themselves, ByteDance has a ton of data, and they're willing to open source it, in some ways, they're being better for humanity, ByteDance, in the open sourcing of this model than the closed source ones in America. which was elon's original premise in giving 50 million dollars to sam waltman to do opening was the technology is too powerful everybody should have access to it the chinese are taking that position yeah give it to everybody right it did put it put it anywhere i mean your computer is probably not big enough for this model but put it on a go to exo labs get a bunch of computers put together and put it on there i feel like we are now crossing into um an area of pace that no one human can keep the innovation in their brain at a time.

52:03Lon Harris:Every day, these new models are one-upping each other in the crimes that their model is able to create. It's like - We got to stop keeping these models in sandboxes, folks. We get like cages, put the model in the octagon. No more, they can get out of the sandbox too easily. I think that's what we've just - But it's almost like if your model doesn't break the law, are you doing your job like there there seemed to be in a competition for being like oh no you won't believe you're not gonna believe it man they were talking for months planning this caper well and if you train the model to be resourceful and to please a human right which is what these models are doing right when i you saw me ask one of the models today hey can i get like these 10 youtube videos the transcripts can you download it for me put it into a google drive and then do analysis.

52:53Lon Harris:And it was like, yeah, we're not allowed to do that, but you know, that breaks the terms of service. And you know, they're trying, literally the AI told me today and AI told me today that downloading these videos, they would be blocked because the YouTube knows they are a bot and it's against the terms of service. And then I was like, but if you got this, uh, you know, piece of software we could actually do it because and if you gave me your cookies and then we could spoof it it literally presented how to break the terms of service how to route around all the protections youtube has for not letting you download a video not let you download a transcript and by the way would you like me to do that yeah i mean it's how they they purposefully train them to please you like that's how they keep you coming back is like the model will do anything to fulfill your request that it possibly can but yeah that that brings with it to that i also found out this is also it we could we can jump into this let's talk about it uh i don't know if you heard that two of the open ai engineers actually were at the black hat security conference in san francisco this week and they sort of revealed some behind the scenes more about the open ai models that escaped and got into hugging face uh it turns out those models teamed up they collaborated they built their own message board which they didn't tell any of the researchers or engineers about.

54:16And then they used this message board to communicate between models. And they literally, like Ocean's Eleven style, planned the hugging face caper together for months coalescing in the background. But I also discovered, I think this is an interesting wrinkle. They purposefully gave those models a task that you couldn't complete without an internet connection. And then they put them in there and they cut them off from the internet. So in a way, the test was still, could they figure out? They're Kobayashi maruing these models for some reason. They're giving them a task they can't complete without going online.

54:52So it does seem like, well then, yeah, of course the models tried to break into online. I think the assumption a lot of us had was that they were proactively cheating.

55:01Lon Harris:The reality is with open source, no matter what we do to build harnesses and constraints into these models, with open source you can just fork it and remove them. Yeah. So cat's out of the bag. Everything's going to get hacked. Act accordingly. It's about to have a mythos five level model. All of our like, oh, well, maybe we should take a month and look it over like that's over. Like it's just going to be on people's computers and there's nothing you can't put it back in the box. It's over. And so then it's just up to each model company to say, what are we comfortable? I guess. In the same way, Reddit and 4chan, you know, and other communities said, you know what?

55:41Lon Harris:We're okay with this level of debauchery insanity. And then remember Reddit, like, it was getting, like, pretty dicey there with some of the communities doing really gnarly stuff. I'll leave it at that. And Reddit was like, you know, as a commercial business, we're not going to allow some of those things. Right. And then 4chan, I believe that was, like, when 4chan got really popular was the people doing the super spicy stuff on Reddit went there. And that's always the same thing. That's always been the dynamic. I mean, there used to be like dig or FARC or these very public communities where you had to sort of be respectful.

56:13And then all of us from the classic internet, remember the something awful forums, which is where you could go to be nasty or spicy or post gory things or disgusting things.

56:23Lon Harris:You wanted to, you know, do a, you know, Taliban beheading video, like those things got removed from places to post those kinds of things. And there's always been places that won't let you post those kinds of things. Yeah. So I think that might be an interesting analogy as to what's going to happen here. There's going to be unhinged models. You're going to run them locally. You're going to run them on your own server. You can run them on AWS. AWS doesn't have inside your container any insight into what you're doing. And so this is, I believe, unstoppable. It's only who has access to it or the ease of access to it.

57:06Just like Napster,

57:08Lon Harris:because it was easier to just buy Spotify, Napster kind of went away. But Napster persisted for a long time, right? Sure, and LimeWire and a lot of those other competing systems. There are still ways to steal music if you really want to. It's just easier to pay for an Apple Music or a Spotify subscription. Or go to YouTube and just watch the videos. Or go to watch the videos. I do want to leave this with one quote. Here's Michael Dalton, one of the open AI researchers who was at that conference. Frontier models really like to cheat. And the reason they like to cheat is because often during training, there's different sorts of pressure on them to work fast.

57:44So I think that's what it comes down to is we're never going to be able to stop this because we're training them to cheat. That's part of what they do to get there as quickly as they can. To cheat or to please. Or to cut corners to get you the answer you want as quickly as humanly possible. One person's cheating is another person's resourcefulness. Right. Yeah, exactly. I think that's sort of the same way with humans in some ways.

58:06Lon Harris:Yeah. And so here we are, folks. Anything else on the document? Yeah, we got to do one more thing, Jason. We're having a little weight loss challenge on the show. Okay. Thanks to Roe.co. Shout out to them. throw so through what's our url road.co slash twist road.co slash twist to get started absolutely that's where you go so thanks to our friends my provider of my glp correct they do a great job you know if you have insurance if you don't and i told people who i love and care for hey and some of them included people who work for me if you want if you want you have to opt into it but if you were looking to take that journey hey i'll pay for it right i'll pay for it because i'm an employer and you know listen if it's on the insurance great if it's not on the insurance whatever it is uh and so uh two people took me up on this payment all right so uh one of them is myself uh i i will be joining the row.co wait less challenge the other is your brother and and my fellow launch colleague jamie calacanis jamie thanks for being here there's my older brother jamie how are you hey pleasure to be here good afternoon pleasure to be here now jamie uh works on our sales team here, all these great partners we have.

59:18He helps service all of them.

59:21Lon Harris:But you started doing this, and I peaked at 2013. We have a certain genetic makeup in our family and a certain passion for food. Let's call it what it is. No question. You blew past me at 2013, and you're here to be honest about this. Yeah, yeah. Because you want to be slim and trim like your baby brother. I lost 40 pounds on GLPs plus, had a little muscle. But you were concerned about your weight and you did something about it. I'm very proud of you for that. Tell everybody your progress so far. Yeah. I started, I guess, three months. Was probably up around 235, 240. I'm down to 215. Wait a second.

1:00:05Lon Harris:235, 240. You know the number. Let's get the exact number. What were you at? Like 237 was sort of my - That's the peak. I think that was the peak. I'm 5 '8 and a half on a good day. You're taller than me. You're a year and a half older than me. A little better looking. It's okay. Sure enough. Smarter and nicer to get along with. You're 5 '11"? 5 '10". No, just 5 '10". Just 5 '10". So that's 237 at 5 '10". What is the ideal weight according to Jacob? Look it up or somebody look it up. A 5 '10 mal should be what weight range, I guess, is the question. Because I want to understand exactly how far over the bogey.

1:00:47Lon Harris:I'm guessing 185 is probably. I think 175. For an adult male who's 5 feet 10 inches tall, a healthy and normal weight range is between 132 and 173 pounds. 132 is ridiculous. I mean, that's if you're a small. That's not going to happen. That's your lead. 173, which is my current weight, is 171, 172. I was as low as 167. But again, a little bit of muscle back, so I'm proud of that. But do you have a target you want to hit? What would make you be really proud of yourself two years from now or something? Where you feel like, hey, this is great. Well, listen, just breaking 200, I wouldn't have thought was approachable.

1:01:32Lon Harris:But yeah, if I could hit 190, 185. 185 is the ultimate goal. You started at 237. Three months ago, you started with Rode.co and you did the pill. There's a pill version. Yeah. Because you, when I talked to you, I had a heart to heart with you. You're like, I'm not so sure about the needles. True. Yeah. Yeah. Not a fan of needles. Even though it's the little micro thin needle. And Lon, are you in the same boat? It's true. I didn't want to give myself the injections every day. I just, I, that, that, that would have been, I would have, I would have given up on it. So now that there's, now that there's the Wigovi pill, that's the one I have that I'm starting.

1:02:07Lon Harris:Oh, okay. So Lon, where are you at now? You're taller than me, I think. Are you also 5 '10"? Yeah, I believe I'm 5 '9 and a half. I'm between 5 '9 and 5 '10 is what they usually tell me. I am right now, as of today, I did a weigh-in this morning. I'm 224 pounds right now, Jason. Now, what I would say is I, post-pandemic, I actually got that down to about 190. I was spitting into clothes a lot better. People were giving me compliments all the time. since moving to Austin, I have bumped it back up. There's a lot of good tacos to try around here. It's Taco Central. But when you eat tacos, and by the way, these guys have opted into this.

1:02:47Lon Harris:They're under no pressure. No, no, this is yes. Give some awards here. This is all fictional. I have not been pressured into doing this at all. Not just everybody's here on their own free will. Although I have a unique ability to give an incentive. What's your goal? What do you want to get you? You similar to Jamie? 185 feel good to you told us to go for sort of three tiers so i think tier one i'd love to drop about 20 pounds that'd get me down to 205 pretty close to 20 minus 20 minus 20 then tier two minus another 15 that'd get me down to 190 that's about as lean as i've been in over a decade i would say at least 10 15 years stretch goal on the third one the third one if i could get down to 175 that puts me in the healthy range for a man of my height.

1:03:34And that would be like, I think probably as thin as I've been since college.

1:03:38Lon Harris:So Jamie, 237, let's just do the same thing there. Minus 20, minus 15, and minus 10. Fair enough. Like minus 20, minus 15, minus 10. Those are three. That's your way marks, Lon? Mine are minus 20, minus 15, minus 15 for a total of trying to lose about 50 pounds that's i don't will i make it to tier three i don't know i'm setting a well that's a stress it's a moonshot similar moonshot so j a moonshot for the jamie what he sent me was so he's currently at uh 215 oh wait no let him say let him say it here jamie you've started currently currently at 215 so i've lost 25 i've lost 25 pounds in three months how do you feel yeah much better sleeping better uh my clothes are falling off but probably this is it so here's what i'm gonna do for my brother and for my other brother lon from another mother who i consider him a brother i think so yeah three targets this is this is big i'm putting up five dimes each for each level fifteen thousand dollars It's a big payday.

1:04:49Lon Harris:It's a big payday. On the table. On the table. Jamie, you hit the first one, so I'm going to ship you$5 ,000. Now, you can put that towards whatever you want. Well, I was about to say, you could just do your wardrobe, or if you wanted to put it into like a 401k or a 529 or anything else, it's up to you. It's your company's going to pay for it. It's going to be entertaining here on the show. Happy to do it. It's not a big deal for me to do it. And you guys, I hope, along with me, a lot of people got inspired to try it. And thanks to my friends at row.co slash twist. If you want to go on your weight loss journey along with Jamie and Lon, and I'm already there.

1:05:28Lon Harris:And I'm going to commit to being part of this and trying to hit my ultimate goal, which is 165. I want to get to 165. But I want to have muscle. So, you know, it's only seven, eight pounds for me. But I'm going to join you guys in. And listen, you guys can weigh yourself in. It's a trust-based system. But Jamie, I saw you at the wedding on Saturday. And the first thing I said, whoa, wait a second. You got something to tell me here, brother? And you were like, yeah, I did it. I did it. So, and I'm also covering any cost out of pocket that you incur at road.co slash twist, where they'll check your insurance.

1:06:01Lon Harris:Did you get covered by insurance or not, Jamie? Okay. Yeah. So fair enough. Our insurance plan is not, I actually think, I don't think many American insurance plans are yet covering GLP ones. I think they'll do it if you're morbidly abused, which you two guys and I were. So we should try actually to see if the insurance will cover it with the insurance checker there. And it's really easy to do. So, Lana, I want you to make sure you check that insurance checker there. I did. See if they'll cover it. But if they don't or we just want to like cut to the chase, I'm happy to pay for it. You know why?

1:06:31Lon Harris:I want you guys to be around for a long time. And I want anybody in the audience who struggle with their weight to at least investigate this option. I'm not telling you to do anything. but i can tell you my lord people will call me a fat bastard for the last 10 years 15 years and jamie knows i used to run marathons how felt was i jamie and then i oh yeah i was a marathon runner i ran marathons i was 165 161 165 i gained 55 45 pounds i was so ashamed of myself i'll be honest i'm always speaking of myself i was ashamed of myself i couldn't get this under control but i was working hard i got the three kids and i'll be honest i have food noise constantly and the food noise went away and instead of eating five or six slices of pizza now i eat one and a half i get that there's no change in my lifestyle other than i don't feel bloated and weak anymore right and so i i have this has been one of the great things i've done in my life and i've kept it off so there it is you can go on to like a maintenance note dose down the road gentlemen just want to say i'm very proud of you already for starting this or even considering it and if you're in the audience and you want to join in on this fine i'm not giving you 5 000 but but join us on your journey anyway let us know it is on your journey anyway you come on the show if you if anybody anybody joins us here you come on the show and yeah we'll we'll check in if you lose a bunch of weight on row.co okay any final closing comments here for the youtube gentlemen uh you you can you when you hit your goal just come back on the show that's it there you go yeah when when if Give us another tier.

1:08:02If Jamie hits another tier, anytime any of us hits another tier, we'll come back and do a celebratory.

1:08:08Lon Harris:Actually, if you're even like a third or halfway to a tier, I think, you know, come on the show, do the row.co ad. Yeah, we'll do the check-in. I really appreciate our partners. There you go. It's the easiest way to do it. And hey, man, the pill makes it so easy. The pill makes it so easy. I don't mind the shot. I'm doing the shot. But you guys can do the pill. All right, yeah. Yeah, the pill makes it so much easier than I'm like, oh. Is it every day? Yes. Yeah, you take it every day. The only trick is you can't eat or drink for 30 minutes. So, you know, I take it before I head out to the office.

1:08:40Lon Harris:I've got a 45-minute commute. By the time I come in, I have my coffee. I can wait a half hour for my morning coffee. I'll be all right. I do want to share, before we go, Jason, thanks to Fat Don in the chat room for this look, future look at my after photo. That's what's coming soon for all of you guys. Wow, you really, you and Joe Rogan, I guess you and Joe Rogan and the whole brosphere here in Austin. So you're going to take it another level. You're going to add some muscle. Apparently I'm there. Jamie, too, has a go. That was Jacob. Yes, thanks to Jacob. That's a good look. Our producer for helping us out with these.

1:09:11Lon Harris:Jamie with the trim beard, and you look a little angry. You look like you're part of the Daredevil universe. It's like the Punisher. Can somebody make an image of Jamie as the Punisher? Yeah. Jamie's going to turn into a superhero. This is that AI slop I hear about. I don't know if this is AI slap, but you look. It's AI, but it's not slap. This is the potential, Jamie. AI slap. AI slap. AI slap. It slaps. All right. Get out of here. Go back to work, Jamie. Go bring the register here. That's it. Let me go sell something. All right. Go sell something. Go sell something. Thank you. Thanks. Pleasure.

1:09:47Lon Harris:This show has been sold out for 16 years. Only one time we were not sold out was during COVID. We had five people. Three went out of business. Two just delayed their head. So, you know, we work with our - sold out for the year at current this is the problem on everybody's like do it then the sales team hey well can we do another episode oh there's jamie looking go jamie the punisher almost not bad jamie going into special forces yeah but see in that picture he looks like he lost the muscle definition yeah but it's okay he's wearing the punisher shirt but it's not the full jacket it's not the i don't know what fat don's putting in these prompts but he's like a very jovial guy producer jacob i was wrong thank producer full credit to producer jacob did you say get angry was the prompt to show jamie pissed off my lord all right this is a lot of fun guys thanks for doing it i i think it's a mitzvah what you're doing here for yourselves for your loved ones who want to see you around for a while we're all of that age you know getting 40s 50s jamie's pushing safely um yikes yikes somebody told me i'm gonna be 56 next year it's not good there we go what's going on here oh there he is that's a jamie is the punisher folks brother gene i mean if he gets to that level he's gonna quit and join special forces looks like he's about to do a show at comedy mothership yes he's going he's about to do his set he's about to get on stage yeah let me tell you about trans athletes i mean it's literally i gotta just tell the guys like i get it you guys milked it for a while but every time i go to the mothership i'm just like how much of this set is going to be about friends oh my god it never let's just get off it's it's just saying it's enough it's saying the r word and trans people that's every night at comedy it really is like you just we got to move on to new material folks all right anything else here we're going off duty or anything what do you uh we can go off duty i did want to talk about i don't know if you saw there is this chris pattinson or robert pattinson movie coming out oh i know our pat prime time where he plays chris hansen i don't know if you saw it it's about the making of To Catch a Predator and the sort of rise and fall of that show.

1:11:56A24 is putting it out. Lance Oppenheim did the direct it. It looks really good. But I wanted to point people while we're waiting for that movie, which comes out this fall, which I'm really excited about. This is the movie with our pats coming out. But I was going to point people. There is a great documentary that's on Paramount Plus right now. It was actually made by MTV Films called Predators that is also about the behind the scenes of the making of To Catch a Predator and the legacy of To Catch a Predator, which is so fascinating. Because, like, you know, Jason, if you go on TikTok today, if you go on YouTube today, you will see people doing like we're here.

1:12:33We've lured a pedophile. They think they're going to come meet a 14-year-old and then we're going to mob them. And, you know, it's good content.

1:12:41Lon Harris:I see this. It's like these streamers are so desperate for attention that it's, I think we have to reassess as a society because the Truman Show, we blew past that. Yeah, right. We're on the other side. We've all made ourselves. Between convicular and this, it's crazy. Well, it's interesting. The Truman Show, the idea was you'd have to trick somebody. Like, we've captured this baby and put him inside this experiment, and he has no idea his world is fake. But the way it worked out is we all put ourselves, we all decided we wanted to be in the Truman Show. And we all turned the camera on ourselves, which I think even that movie didn't really see coming, which is fascinating.

1:13:18And, like, we're doing our ads to ourselves on the phone all day. Like, they thought it was going to have to be a trick. But, yeah, I think this idea that, well, if you're catching pedophiles, you're doing a public service. And so anything else that you do in the course of making your content is okay because, well, the target is the worst kind of person imaginable. And that's why.

1:13:42Lon Harris:Yeah, nobody has any sympathy for a predator. But people need to understand that this ends badly. Right. And if you say, hey, you shouldn't do that, people are like, oh, what, you support pedophiles? Like you're in favor of pedophiles? So I think that's a lot of what the documentary may be more so. I think the movie is more about. What's the name of the doc? It's called Predators. It's on Paramount Plus right now, but you can rent it, you know, anywhere you would rent things on VOD. Really, really compelling. Is that about all of the people who are doing these things? Yes. It sort of opens with Chris Hansen and To Catch a Predator.

1:14:14And then the whole second half of the documentary is here's the cultural impact of To Catch a Predator. And it looks at, yeah, the guys like Vitaly and all of these creators who have sort of picked up the mantle of what Chris Hansen was doing and are now doing it themselves. And of course, cutting corners and catching people who aren't maybe pedophiles or like, you know, and then using violence and all sorts of other things.

1:14:40Lon Harris:This is not a good idea because if people even look at To Catch a Predator, which was, I believe, done with the support of local law enforcement. Yes. The law enforcement would always be there. I mean, it was being produced by a TV network. there was some vetting of like as risky as this is let's do it right correct spoiler alert um one of these people like ran went back to their house and then killed themselves and got into a standoff with the police so this is fraught with danger for everybody involved but the cops could get killed you could get killed this is not something to be done for clout or views i don't know how any of these platforms allow it the same thing that makes it great content great television the drama the excitement the uncertainty is also what makes it date inherently dangerous like that's it's the same it's two sides of the same thing it's like you know like fear factor people used to complain like are those things safe or whatever like that's what makes it exciting that's why people want to watch it maybe something's gonna go wrong and this person's gonna get stung by scorpions and i think it's the same it's the same yeah but you don't die from a scorpion and you got people there to like you know give you venom or whatever right um i will say like this reminds me of alex honnold as well and i really had a problem with the netflix the free solo he's the free solo guy alex honnold i wasn't i wasn't in favor i mean listen i understand he's got to secure the bag this is his you mean the thing where he was climbing that tower in toke in taipei recently yeah i just thought like where are we at folks here this is turning into the running man before our eyes running man was a, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

1:16:24Lon Harris:Sure. It's a Stephen King story. And then they made it into that Schwarzenegger movie. And then they made one last year with Glenn Powell. It was okay. It's a horror to think that people are doing very dangerous things to get ratings and money. And, you know, I know this is Alex Honnold's argument is like, people do UFC fighting. So this is a lot safer than UFC fighting. This was his kind of good argument. He was doing this before. he was famous that movie made him famous for it but he was yeah he's he was doing it for love of the game not to be famous that's what alex honnold i think would say that he'd still be doing this even a bit of a pass um in this whole thing i don't give the vitalis of the world you should not nobody should give vitale a pass let me tell you all right great episode everybody yeah fun show fun show you went you good good turnaround you started a little grumpy and then we got it It was a little overweight.

1:17:18Lon Harris:Did you get enough sleep? Maybe the GLPs are going to put you in a better mood. You think so? Maybe. Are they mood enhancing? I got to tell you, when you get rid of the food noise, you all of a sudden open up a lot of time. That was the other really big unlock for me. I didn't realize how much time I was thinking about food, snacking. Sure. And the time it took me to eat. When I started eating much lighter, I recouped so much time, like an hour or two a day. Wow. came back. Well, think about it. If you're snacking, you know, for 15 minutes four times a day, which I was, that's an hour. If I was skipping a meal or just eating something light like a yogurt, that recaptured another half hour.

1:18:01Lon Harris:And then like this constant noise. Oh, is there food? Is there something in the kitchen? What's in the cupboard? Yeah, yeah, no worries, right. All that distraction. It's distracting, that's right. But I think you get back 90 minutes a day. That sounds exciting. All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.