How generative AI is enabling hologram assistants with Looking Glass CEO Shawn Frayne | E1753

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1:03Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. Today I'm joined by Sean Frayn, the CEO and co-founder of looking glass he was previously on episode 902 back in february of 2019 we wanted to have my back on because they are cooking something very interesting at looking glass sean welcome back what are you about thanks thanks jason good to be back yeah yeah so tell me what are you working on uh we're combining the realism of holograms with the realism of conversational ai so pretty pretty hot stuff okay well i mean the best thing to do here is to show don't tell so maybe you could do a quick demo if you're not watching the video you can go to youtube.com slash this weekend or if you're on spotify you can click the video player and if you're on apple podcast you have to search for this weekend startups video there's two feeds video and audio but we'll sportscast it and we'll we'll talk about what we're seeing on the screen while we do this.

2:02Always fun with holograms to SportsCast. Yeah, so the name of this platform is called LightForms, and it combines holograms with ChatGPT. I'll pull up one of the many light forms here. Okay, so what we're looking at here is a camera pointed at a frame. It looks like a picture frame with some light around the edges, almost like a neon light around the edges. That is our looking glass portrait display. And I'm going to bring a little Shiba Inu into the looking glass. Okay. Everybody's favorite dog after Bulldogs. So there's your puppy. And we're seeing like a cartoon character that is, has a lot of depth.

2:51Looks like a actual avatar in the real world. Hey, can you hear me? Hey, girl, what's up? Ready to kick some metaphorical butt today? Hey, uh, little Inu, do you know who Jason Calacanis is? Hey, hun. Of course I know who Jason Calacanis is. Do you want me to give you a lowdown, or are you just trying to flex your startup knowledge? Tell me something funny about Jason. Oh, Jason Calacanis? Love his monotone voice. it's like asmr but instead of calming me down it puts me to sleep but hey at least he's got tech smarts am i right one more question what was jason's best investment as a vc omg let me check my crystal ball real quick kidding girl everyone knows that jason's best investment was uber obvi all right so uh you had this conversation with this picture frame with this animated avatar character of a dog uh and every time uh she was thinking you asked her a question a couple little um thinking like a thinking bubble kind of showed you um three bars and the three bars like you might have on your cell phone to show you reception were moving i guess to indicate that she was doing a search on the internet and then we also heard that instead of just reading it in a monotone in a boring way like chad chippy t would she had a little bit of style a little bit of hipness um so a bit of personality so you've trained her to have personality while she did those queries she's a bit sassy bit sassy yeah that's what uh that's what she does um and combines with a holographic output of the character um and so really what we're focused on with this light forms platform that works in looking glass holographic displays is pulling those um conversations with ai into the real world this is such a great idea i feel like we had this discussion already we did i took your idea well i mean it's a pretty obvious idea that i think you had already so it's very generous of you to give me credit but last time you were on a couple of hundred episodes ago.

5:13Here's what I said. Oh my God, I just figured out your entire company. I love talking to smart people. It's so inspiring. If this was Alexa and you have all these deep fakes, deep fakes, they call them? I think so. Real fakes, deep fakes. You have all this deep fake technology. This looks like my Amazon show, which has a little screen on it. Yeah. If Bezos, if he got his hands on this and alexa was looking at you talking when you said alexa call me an uber right imagine that have you thought about that taking one of taking siri or alexa and then bringing them to life that's pretty funny um that was a long time ago that was about 30 i was about 30 pounds heavier there so shocking people to see me uh that was fat jay cal as opposed to shvelte jay cal now uh but aside from that shocking moment uh how fat i was um what what what are you um were you actually was that the path you were thinking about already i'm assuming you were there was a there's a short list of four or five killer apps that we were all we've been working on for the last eight years of our company's um life um and so uh conversational holographic ai character was one of them um the problem with alexa and we tried this with ibm watson all the stuff for four or five years has always been um didn't feel real enough you know the holograms felt real but the conversations didn't feel real um but now with chat gpt and you know some uh additions of personality combined with the holographic output um it feels as real as a a real character you know there in front of you in the real world or a real person or what have you and so what is the business model today because obviously you have this looking glass you created the hardware and the i guess the software platform to create these 3d you know holograms um and i don't think they're that expensive so what is a the hardware cost and then what do you think the business model will be are you going to be a service provider in a platform or are you going to try to actually make an alexa competitor or do licensing deals with marvel or disney what's your the business model and how much did you get those um the looking glass blocks down to i guess you call them blocks instead of frames it's cool name yeah um and the newer these newer systems um that we use they're actually they're hollow so they're very light and the screen element itself is very thin versus the ones that um i brought to your studio a few years ago they had big old blocks on them so we're kind of beyond that um point and so um the business model is to sell hardware like the looking glass displays and to sell time so time that you're chatting with these conversational ai holograms and we're focused obviously giving folks a taste in their home so people can buy a looking glass portrait for 400 bucks right on our website looking glass factory.com um they can uh give light forms the platform a try and there's some sample characters in there that people can have conversations with and see what it's like to uh chat with different characters with different personalities different holograms with different personalities um and then for enterprises uh we charge for time and so the more you chat with uh the light forms um the um you know, the more you pay.

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9:34Chocolate dipped macadamia nuts are my favorite. But I also, sometimes I get that coconut craving. You ever get that? They got a chocolate coconut macadamia bar that is amazing. and it hits the spot it's not going to spike your glucose it's something healthy but it's a treat it's a treat and they just launched an amazing cold press macadamia oil with a buttery flavor and a high smoking point perfect for drizzling over meals or cooking use the code twist 20 get 20 off and for a limited time they're giving a free bottle of premium cold press extra virgin macadamia oil with any purchase go to house of macadamias.com slash twist and use the code twist 20 house of macadamias.com slash twist and use that code twist 20 so they know jay cal sent you well and it's really interesting you got into this if i remember correctly like this is yeah you've been at this for eight years you said earlier um you did a kickstarter once or twice raised a couple hundred thousand dollars from that and then you did seed rounds and series a and you've been just grinding and grinding as this product which is a hardware product to have the hologram looking glass that takes time but then uh suddenly you have ai catch up during that time period which makes it super interesting because you must have seen there is a tiktok influencer charging a dollar a minute to talk with her right yeah and so it doesn't take a genius to figure out that hey you could have a marvel character an influencer and you could start a virtual relationship with one of them or now people are starting to speculate well you could take grandma or grandpa and you know have whatever if you did 10 interviews with them and you had 10 hours of conversations about their life you could create an ai where you could at times instead of looking at just a picture of grandma you could ask grandma you know hey what was it like in the roaring 20s and she might give you an answer absolutely and you know our piece of it is making sure those characters have real personality so it doesn't feel like the chat bot set no one likes when you're waiting for you know um airport customer service um feels more like a person a conversation with a person and the embodiments holographically and you know people have imagined this future where conversational AI is embodied, but a lot of those imaginings have historically in sci-fi been in robots.

12:10The problem with robots is they're made of metal and plastic, and you can't change them. They're sort of stamped at the factory, and then that's what they are, kind of like a Blackberry keyboard. But for this moment of the embodiment of conversational AI, holograms provide a much more flexible iphone-esque type of platform and are people third parties using the platform yet what's the most interesting thing you know folks have used the product for so this is at the very early days so we just started teasing this out and are really just announcing the platform um now when this um podcast comes out um we do have folks even from the early teasing that we put out there um with one of the early light form characters contacted us they want to make their mascot into a living breathing well almost breathing but a living a hologram uh in retail environments in location-based entertainment um for events and stadiums all these types of things folks are reaching out and saying wow we have a mascot or we have a person that we want to turn into a hologram you can chat with can we do something with looking glass so that would be fascinating if some sports team had a mascot you could have the mascot greeting people yeah at the store at the stadium you know if you go to disneyland or some amusement park you could have all the avengers and you can walk through the hall of avengers and you can actually talk to them and ask them questions they might know who you are through some qr code or your phone app and you could actually have a conversation with iron man tony stark the possibilities here endless and those frames now um they get quite large right so the 500 one is what we would consider like a desktop photo of your family like i don't know it's out of 10 by it's around like an ipad size yeah got it um but you can do bigger ones now i remember you had talked in our previous conversation about doing larger ones of these right yeah so we have a 32 inch and a 65 inch looking glass display they're yeah they're that's like tv size yeah yeah so and that's a perfect size for some of these advertising retail installation type of environments um and that's why we made it this would be amazing i mean if you went to yankee stadium or you know uh you know madison square garden you could have all the past hall of fame uh players if the players were would allow this and let them have you know a very narrow set of conversations but hey tell me about this game tell me what it was like to play here and you could have you know pretty dynamic conversations of course you got to make sure the conversations don't go off the rails and then say things are not supposed to or you know get involved in discussions and you know zones that would not be appropriate for the venue or the context, but that's something that software can do pretty quickly.

15:13Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the, the time is ending for folks being satisfied, going to a movie and having a Marvel character, you know, a flat Marvel character, physically flat, um, having a one way sort of conversation, just talking at the audience in five years. I think everybody for every film, they're going to demand having a two way conversation with a hologram of those characters And same thing goes for any of these other environments, like someone at a stadium that you want to have a conversation with. in you when you see talk about movies and filmed entertainment a passive experience which is kind of what we want we want to sit back and just be taken away and then just kind of lose ourselves in a film at least i do um i don't want to talk to the film i want to have the experience of what the director intended but afterwards i might want to talk to the characters or that could be fun for my kids i think so how do you see that playing out somebody goes and sees you know whatever the popular movie is minions so if kids are going to see the minions movies you could have these things in the lobby and you could talk to the minions and kids might have as much fun doing that as they did seeing the movie yeah um so not replacing movies um that type of experience in my view is something that is very special and that shouldn't be made interactive in the theater itself but then when you're in the lobby of the theater, of the cinema, or when you go home, being able to continue the relationship, the conversation with those characters is going to be big.

16:50And they're going to be able to do things in your life. It won't only be about necessarily what that movie was about, although certainly that'll be part of the conversation. They might be able to remind you in a way that is in character, what you have coming up tomorrow. Hey, like Billy, don't forget to study for that test you have coming up tomorrow and that could be a hologram of a minion in the you know home of the very near future yeah there there's something uh that disney did with fighting nemo around this i don't know if that was that your technology or that somebody else where you could interact with them so if if i'm uh well of the turtle yeah turtle talk yeah yeah Yeah, that's an amazing installation.

17:36As far as I know, there was someone actually puppeteering that in the background. So that wasn't, to my knowledge, that wasn't AI driven. That makes total sense. So they are doing CGI live and there's a puppeteer who then is interacting with the audience. In your case here now with technology, this is going to be much easier to do. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. um so i guess the idea now is how does your business when you have a deep tech business like this and you got to spend tens of millions of dollars five six seven eight years how does the investment community view your startup um it's got hardware a lot of vcs don't want to do hardware it's got deep tech it's going to take a while to perfect you got a limited audience because people haven't figured out the killer app yet explain your journey what you've learned as a founder because i get this over and over again founders telling me you know we have to build this like really hardcore technology it's going to take years and i can't get venture funding how did you do it and then how do you you know kind of get this over the finish line because they're looking for scaled revenue how do you get to 100 million in revenue yeah based on it and it seems like you're still in the i want to say experimental phase but you're still in the looking for i think you would agree the killer app well we think this is the killer app um but um we have been searching for a while so that that part um i 100 agree with um and you know we're not at hundreds of millions of revenue yet but we um are doing good business with um different uh different enterprise customers and individuals who are looking to get an early taste um the the journey has really been um one of uh following a few north stars that we haven't diverged from so we think people like to do things in groups um so we make group viewable holographic displays we want to make technology easier and easier and easier for folks to use so you don't have to be a super nerd um speaking as a super nerd you don't have to be a super nerd as a super nerd to use to use this stuff yeah um and um then making them more and more useful in people's lives and so we've stayed true to that and it's shaped the techno technology path um and we've been very lucky to be able to um get investment from investors like boundary group brad felt is on our board folks at luxe capital jeff clavier uncork i mean you know all these guys um and they saw the same future and see the same future that we see that feels so inevitable because we've been seeing it in movies our whole lives yes in fact the blade runner that just came out had 3d billboards absolutely and this character who was projected from like some sort of projector that the main character had fallen in love with it was kind of like a romantic avatar and he had this relationship with.

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21:48And you own all the IP. You own all the source code. Let the folks at Crowdbotics supercharge your product velocity today. No more waiting. Get a free build plan at crowdbotics.com slash twist. That's a$4.99 value just for the Twist listeners. you get that for free that's c-r-o-w-d-b-o-t-i-c-s.com slash twist for a free build plan and so yeah that's out there you mentioned enterprise clients in there enterprise clients uh they don't scale exactly but they're a great way especially with an experimental technology to get in hundreds of thousands low millions of dollars to do projects it's a little bit of service work it's a lot of custom stuff but it proves out the case have the enterprise customers started coming in yet oh yeah for sure public examples of that yet or not yet ready to be announced uh there's a there's a few examples i can talk about so um bulgari is using our technology um uh in that case to visualize products uh watches um pixar just showed um a couple of the characters from their new movie, Elemental, into 32-inch looking glasses in the Steve Jobs auditorium at Pixar headquarters as part of their press event, because they wanted to pull those characters from the two-dimensional world into the real world for press to see.

23:09And so there's a lot of examples like that, that are kind of the early examples of top-tier brands recognizing the value in the technology. And so the course that we're charting is the course that anyone who builds these new computer interfaces has charted in the past go to um the deeper pocketed enterprise customers that really want to be first in the world um and then uh that will help to fuel the cost reduction so that everybody will be able to use this technology um not too far down the road yeah here's somebody tweeted out actually the pixar stuff from elemental and i guess this is we'll pull it up on the screen here now this is hard to um because this is a hologram and there's some reflections cameras don't do a good job of showing the fidelity because you get the you can see the office space and the reflection but you wouldn't be seeing that if you were in real life i guess um but you do get to see even even with that you know an iphone camera i assume you really do get to see how the depth of that character looks totally different than a flat screen tv totally it's uh transformatively uh qualitatively different and that the person that shared that was peter um who's actually the director of the film um and so uh it's been nice to work with folks that share you know this vision of the future yeah and now you start to think about generative ai tools and this could become part of you know the um the hardware stack for a pixar artist or a game developer we recently had a game developer on the show who was using generative ai to make the items in a game yeah and so you could say i don't know if you saw that episode but you could say oh make me a zombie character now you already have a palette of what the design theme of it is you know let's say it was anime or a certain type of anime you say uh and the company's called scenario by the way um and so with scenario's tool you could say oh give me um i did one more give me a teenage zombie in a football jersey like a football player zombie and it came up with like five options and they said okay let's take this one and make this is the one we like let's make 10 options of that and you can imagine doing that on the looking glass and being able to see it in 3d and really get a feel for it so has that concept uh come to pass yet where artists are saying you know i want to see this um people who make commercial artists doing video games doing whatever comic books etc looking at them and saying hey this is a place for me to kind of experience my characters before i let them loose in and and actually be doing like dolly and mid-journey live yeah absolutely a lot of folks are making mid-journey holograms pulling those into their looking glass um and um you know the future of this is that you'll be able to have holographic media that you generate off of a prompt that you type in or maybe that you speak to a light form and they generate it but also you could manifest any character you could imagine that you're working on as well in a looking glass so making it easier and easier and easier to make 3d content then immediately feeds additional content into the looking glass ecosystem yeah so if i'm understanding correctly we've got this looking glass it's on a desk or it's in my home or it's you know in an art gallery or something and i talk to it or i talk to an app that's connected to it perhaps i give it a prompt and i get to see it actually come up in real time yeah it's kind of trippy when you think about it it's crazy it's like um summoning something from your imagination just by speaking it out and it's uh it's magic it's magical be really interesting too for movie theaters you think about just the humble movie poster and how there was an art form of movie posters or concert halls would have you know this grateful dad or bob dylan you can go buy the beautiful uh posters that people were making and there'd be one of one you know like make it for each tour each stop along the tour they would make a different piece of artwork you could actually start to do stuff like this movie posters in a lobby so you're going to go see blade runner but you see the characters or the next as i said marvel film or whatever indiana jones and you get to see indiana jones in this sort of 3d thing this would be a great draw to put outside a movie theater yeah interactive movie posters wow uh yeah fantastic and so people can buy these now and who's buying these looking glass uh things now is it just uh dorks and and nerds uh you know who's who's buying all these things yeah i mean uh as always definitely some amazing dorks and nerds like yours truly um uh but um any surprising people that you saw like while this order came in and like wow this is interesting like i mean i have to say who the person is but you could say the sort of genre of person i mean every every company that you could imagine that is interested in new ways to communicate new ways to entertain um new ways to bring um characters that they've invested a lot of money into into a new environment where they can re-monetize um in a different platform so a bunch of folks have our looking glass um displays the small ones the big ones full kit and caboodle um and now with the release of the light forms holographic ai platform folks are starting to use the um beta and um we'll see some installations come out in public environments that i think folks will find pretty interesting so ai is going to help people make the characters which then makes the looking glass that much more valuable so the software level you're building these toolkits will make it easier for people to actually get stuff onto the looking glass absolutely so all of the the whole kin caboodle of visual generative ai and the conversational ai that platforms like chat gpt have brought out there all of those feed in unbelievable amounts of additional content into um our holographic hardware yeah wild and how many people are the company now about 40 yeah seems like the right size team while you're figuring it out and if you can get these commercial projects that'll pay for are any amusement parks using this yet have you have you cracked that nut yet because that does seem to be you know like could be a wild or like these uh what do they call them like museum these these instagrammable experiences like museum of ice cream there seems to be like location-based entertainment i think is the category or that's what we used to call it our location-based entertainment and amusement parks and experiential stuff has that started to drop yet are there any examples uh that you can share or are they still under wraps and being worked on yeah there's a few examples under wraps um but a lot more of that's going to come out now that there's both this content that people can use but also something you can speak to and that has really been the missing element um for um a much wider adoption sort of ubiquitous adoption yeah yeah just having them it's kind of like an enhanced painting yeah it's an enhanced graphic but it's not an experience exactly until you can talk to them and talking to them man that's going to just be crazy i mean imagine if you had some comedian totally will farrell or dave chappelle or something you mean you literally could take ricky gervais to take something like that and you could have them roasting people you know you could you know in a comedy club you could have them interacting being i mean people would not if you had will farrell you know goofing on the person and it had the ability to with a camera assess the person they're short they're tall they're ugly looking whatever it is they got a shirt they could make fun of their shirt they could make fun of their hair you could get roasted you could make jokes i mean it could be pretty compelling uh you can start to sort of yeah see where this is going listen you know i'm a bulldog guy i've had bulldogs my whole life.

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33:36And now that's what all of this generative AI is doing. And the pace is outrageous. Fortunately, we're already done with all of the hardware development and all of the software development that we did on platforms like, you know, IBM Watson and Alexa in the past, combined with our holographic software, sort of lets us move very, very fast on the Lightform software platform so we're um we're keeping pace we're the first folks out there with this holographic embodiment of um ai and uh we intend to run as fast as the wave is that's coming at us yeah the interesting thing is like you look at watson and you look at alexa they were moving you know like at a quarterly pace maybe you would get some sort of updates you know maybe every six months you'd see some improvement you know just as a technologist for 30 years like this the only other time i can remember things moving this quickly were two moments one was uh the internet itself right like html moving very quickly to add features in every let's say every month monthly the html spec would add something you know fonts blinking tags backgrounds whatever and then when mobile came out you got this sense that you know every six months apple would release something every three to six months or android that just made your app a little bit better oh we have now we have an sdk for this so now we have gps enabled now we have messaging enabled now we have you know whatever feature it is uh some graphics update and you can just do a little bit more a little bit more but the pace of this is just to me mind-boggling and i think there's a big lesson for founders in your company specifically which is if your company doesn't die right which hardware companies die at an alarming rate the fact that you made it to year eight as a hardware company and had some number of users using it you can you can stay in the game yeah until some inflection point or enabling technology creates this amazing use case and i'm really happy for you because i know how hard you worked on this and you know we look back on siri alexa like these things seem dumb now and then we look at chad gpt and you're like and i don't know if you've been playing with bard have you been playing with bard and a little bit yeah yeah you're like whoa now now it's a two horse race and then i don't know if you've been on hugging face like looking at some of the other models and you're like well wait a second some of these models are you know super promising and verticalized and it feels like the race is on and And we're going to have, like the web, 20 different models.

36:20And, you know, there were 20 different servers or server farms, etc. To do that. And it's like, just think about Siri. Like, what was it? They bought that company for$200 million in 2010. Apple bought the Siri. I think it was an Israeli company. And they're now 14 years, 13, 14 years into it. it's still terrible the most it can do is like play a song or call somebody on the phone it gets that wrong half the time maybe a third of the time and now here we go you're asking jason count is his best investment and it's like oh come on and it's putting sass in it where do you think this will be next year you know like you did that demo of like kind of talking to her about me okay let's say you get your dream character let's say we get i don't know if you had a dream character what's a what's a dream character for you what would be like a holy grail of a character to make interactive fictional or not fictional i mean yeah i mean i think a lot of the characters from that that's a great one let's go with that well no but what's your character jesus is mine but which are sorry i interrupted you i on the the other end of the spectrum i was gonna say like a lego character um you know to be able to like summon all of this amazing 3d stuff within a world that you know my kids know oh so roblox yeah or minecraft or lego being able to build in 3d pull up different pieces build a world oh my god that is such a compelling vision like roblox is getting super popular and if you could have an integration with them that would be next level totally i think my jesus one would be second only to roblox and minecraft but if you think about a religious person i know this sounds crazy and i don't want this to be insulting to folks but there are people who have you know big faith and it's a big part of their lives and you know there's probably a billion christians on the planet who if they could literally have the son of god in a 3d model and i'm not saying this to mock but we grew up praying and if you could say a prayer with jesus these like i don't know if you've looked at the top 100 podcasts recently but you know like we're like oh wow i wonder if all in will hit the top 10 and it's like you know if it wasn't for jesus and serial killers we'd be the number one podcast but there's nine podcasts ahead of us every week and it's like three or four of them are a dude reading the bible and the other six are people describing serial killers and once in a while bill simmons i think bill simmons basically can bill simmons is good enough during the nba season to beat jesus i'm not saying bill simmons is jesus i'm saying he competes with jesus but that would be amazing if the catholic church were saying you could literally talk to jesus are you catholic would you grow up christian no no no no so there's a thing like uh you do penance like you can go to confession and say i did these bad things and you got to say 10 hell marys you got to say five all fathers and you ask to be forgiven and you know a lot of people will have a crucifix in their living room they'll have a picture of jesus mother mary whatever um this would be like a really serious thing that people could do where you could actually talk to jesus or say a prayer with jesus that would be a best-selling thing you have to get one of these mega churches to partner with you yeah i think anytime folks want to feel a connection you know the realism is important the realism is important it can't feel like pre-baked script it can't um feel like you know you're um talking to your phone um it's got to feel real and in any of those situations i think the um uh the opportunity is uh pretty big and very multifold all right listen if you make a jesus looking less this is my idea i want i want 50 basis points as an advisor 50 bips okay when i come back when i come back in uh three or four years um with jesus i say hopefully i say we took this idea yeah no but i mean what can i get can i get my b club what do i get 25 bips a little quarter point half point i don't think it's too much i mean if it becomes a bestseller i don't want it if it doesn't become a bestseller i'll make i'll make a version of jason calcanus that speaks with the voice of jesus yes yes yeah i just i can guarantee if you made a jesus looking glass i think you sell a million i think you sell a million of them there are it would be the ultimate christmas present and the ultimate easter present to be able to talk with jesus or just because uh people want to pray every day so to just do a prayer class it could be with a famous priest it could be a famous rabbi a famous you know any religious leader wow man it's really inspiring when you think about actually manifesting these characters in the real world they do what we'll say just don't promise me you're not going to like open up some portal to like an evil place and start manifesting like ghostbusters some evil characters we'll try we'll try not to all right i will see you in another two or three years uh when hologram jesus and uh leg hose i mean if roblox is and minecraft are listening like one of you's got to get in here and get the exclusive on this for the next five years like do an exclusive deal with looking glass and and rocket if people want to learn more if they want to buy a looking glass if they want to start programming where do they go uh they don't even need to program they can use this stuff with no programming experience but they go to lookingglassfactory.com.

42:14Lookingglassfactory.com. We just type Lookingglass Factory into the Google or chat to JBT. Continued success, my friend, and congratulations on staying alive and finding this inflection point is a very important lesson for startup founders. You got to stay in the game and then good things happen. Prices get lower. I'm assuming the prices got lower and the margins went up on the hardware. See, that's it, man. You got to just keep grinding. Don't give up. And we'll see you all next time on This Week in Startups. Bye-bye.