If you’re not working 9-9-6, are you working hard enough? | E2198

26:45It worked six days a week. It was only Ford and the Model T and the concept of getting Americans the ability to take a weekend road trip that created the five-day workweek, the 40-hour workweek, in order to sell more cars. You can look all that stuff up. So it's not super controversial to bring this back. And if you're being compensated wildly, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, you know, stock options that could be worth millions to tens of millions of dollars, it's not unreasonable for this to happen. And it's, in fact, not illegal if you're a salaried employee and making beyond the minimum wage and what minimum wage plus overtime would pay.

27:27My understanding is this is legal in the United States. People can make that decision in tradeoff. The legality point's very interesting, though, Jason, because after, well, basically going back in time, 2019, Michael Moritz, formerly of Sequoia, now kind of a venture emeritus for the world, wrote an article for the Financial Times discussing how much Chinese tech companies were working and also how frugal they were. And it was a bit of a shake the cage moment for American startups at that time. Yes, I remember that. That was the Financial Times, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then some things happened.

27:58So over in China, I'm going to ruin this, everybody. I'm sorry. But Pen Duoduo had an employee die on her way home from work. Another one jumped off a bridge and another set themselves on fire. And that led to a conversation inside of China in which there was a mini revolt amongst tech workers was kind of complaining about the insane pace of work that was required of them. And that led to China in 2021 saying that 996 was actually illegal. Now, they haven't stamped it out. Coverage since then has made it clear that it's still in effect. But even inside of China, where this model kind of came from, there was pushback against it.

28:31I just wonder if people are doing good work or how much of this is performative versus actually being effective. Jason, can you tell me more about that? I mean, there are moments in time where you can burn out and it works against you. Uh, but putting in a 10-hour day, 12-hour day, you can still be productive. Um, and it's, uh, it's a personal choice if you want to do it. It's not a big deal. And then a lot of times, law of big numbers, if you've got 100 million people in China who are working 996, let's say, because they want to become rich and they want to take their family out of, you know, poverty to the middle class or middle class to upper middle class.

29:12And they make that decision, you know, a certain number of people tragically commit suicide. It's one in a hundred thousand or one in 250 ,000, depending on the society, the age group, et cetera. So would that person have committed suicide anyways? What you have to ask now, this comes across as incredibly cold and callous, but in business and in life, they call this the law of big numbers. So at Burning Man, there's a hundred thousand, 75 ,000 people there. And so if one person were to commit suicide at Burning Man by, you know, every 10 years by running into the Burning Man fire, doesn't it mean Burning Man, you know, killed this person?

29:52It means this person was going to kill themselves in all likelihood anyway. So I think, I think I'm pretty much on board with your take on it's fine. If you're compensated fairly for it. I'm a big enough deal now that I can afford to hire my own admin team. Look at me. They handle all the details of running my company. But if you're a startup, you need to spend your time obsessing about your product, not filling out paperwork and doing all these books. That's why I want to tell you about Every. They've worked with over 1 ,000 startups from first-time founders to VC-funded teams and more. And they've got the experience to help your company navigate whatever's coming around the bend.

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31:16And I think that equity upside is the critical thing there, because if you own what you're working on, you're less of a salaried worker, more of a owner in the company. So what's the minimum equity expectation you think is reasonable for an employee to have to sign on for, let's say, a decade of 996 at a company? Yeah, I mean, again, it would be up to the person. If the person is, you know, from an immigrant family and they grew up with five people in a one bedroom and$150 ,000 or$100 ,000 to them, you know, pays down this debt, you know, buys a house, whatever. Okay, that's the personal choice.

31:53For some people, if they're already a millionaire, they might be like, I'm not doing this unless I'm getting 10 million in stock options. So there's no one answer. There is just the reality that you're in a competitive space. If you're in the NBA, LeBron James is, or Steph Curry, or Michael Jordan is prime, or Kobe Bryant, certainly. We're definitely doing more than 72 hours of basketball per week. They were working more than 72 hours a week. Navy Seals, Olympians, They're all doing, they'd be like 72 hours of work in a week to be an Olympian or Kobe Bryant. They'd be like, oh, that's like a vacation week for me.

32:30So it is what it is, folks. You don't need to be precious about it. It's not causing people to die. It's light work when compared to what humanity was doing, you know, a thousand years ago or a hundred years ago, where people literally worked in fields seven days a week, and maybe they took Sunday off for like the Lord's Day. But, dude, much worse than that. I mean, go look at the history of mining. Yes. Thank you. But here's the thing, though. People are going to say, but guys, aren't we trying to get away from that? Isn't technology supposed to free us up? And I'll just say, because right now we are at a hinge point in technology, there's a new paradigm that everyone wants to apply, and there's the geopolitical element.

33:10This is going to be the way it goes when the markets are competitive. So last thing, Jason, before we scoot on here, I went and I did some searching around the web and I found some companies that have job postings that explicitly note higher hourly requirements. So Corgi says that new hires and people pursuing the account executive route are required to be in the office six days a week. Mercore, who we've had on the show, six days a week with Monday through Friday in person. So one remote day. Latch Bio says six days a week, Monday through SAT, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So you can see companies being upfront.

33:41And I think upfront expectations, reasonable equity splits, go for it. If you don't have those things, you're kind of being a jerk. Yeah. And Europe is, you know, even Europe is having this discussion. And in China, I think there was a podcast, 996. I think either Sequoia or Google Ventures had like literally named their podcast 996. so and Chinese developers name their protest site 996.icu because working 996 sends developers to the intensive care unit if you think you can compete in a company working 40 hours a week and hiring you know whatever it is you know twice as many if you think you can compete with 72 hour a week work weeks where people are getting massive compensation by working 35 hours a week go do it spend twice as much money have twice as many people and see if you compete you might actually be able to.

34:32Maybe you'll attract more people. Maybe better people will come work for you. We might be sitting here in 10 years and have a standard in the United States for a lot of different workers, let's say lawyers and accountants, of four days a week, or teachers, or nurses. We may go down to a four-day, 35-hour-a-week, nine-hour-a-day, 10-hour-a-day work week. And in fact, there were some companies that were pitching this during the peak woke era of Silicon Valley. And this stuff ebbs and flows. Like during that peak woke DEI, you know, kind of life work balance nonsense. Um, there were literally companies that were saying, come work for us.

35:16You can have unlimited vacation and work four days a week. And that was their sales pitch. And those companies, I can't even remember their names because they lost to the companies working 996. And speaking of getting fit, look how svelte I am. I was on the scale the last week, 169 to 172. I'm really in my perfect zone. I'm trying to get down to 166 for ski season and increase the muscle mass on my body. How did I do it? spent the last four years testing different GLP-1s. You know what I'm talking about. Ozempic, Wagovi, Maggiorni, and changed my life. I don't want to get emotional, but I lost 40 pounds.

35:56I feel great. I don't look at myself in the mirror and go, why can't I lose this weight? I had whatever, my genetics working against me, my lifestyle working against me, the food supply working against me. I'm not going to beat myself up about it. I used a tool, GLP-1s, having a better diet, exercising, rocking, fasting. I tried everything and it worked for me. It might work for you. And if you want to try, I suggest ro.co, R-O.co. I'm an official spokesperson, me, Charles Barkley, and Serena Williams. Three incredible, notable athletes in their field, or I should say two notable people and me.

36:35Those are the three spokespersons for ro.co. two incredibly famous people and me. So go to road.co and hopefully it works for you. I got the food noise out of my head. I believe the phrase is podcaster waistlines matter too. You know, absolutely. Let's keep going. All right. Next up in the docket. Let's talk about presh. Presh is a former launcher. We all love presh. Fantastic guy. We lost him because he went off to go build his own company. I was back in some unbelievable presh. How dare you? But he made a very interesting video clip, Jason, that he shared on Twitter back in September that you asked him about in which he was doing some storyboarding, if you will, for a promo clip for his company, Tempo.

37:20And you asked him to do a demo for us. And we also have the final version of that. So I thought I would show the 19 second clip that got you interested and then show you the final version and we talk about it. Okay, great. Yeah, Precious is building a company called Tempo to extend your health span. and he made a great promo video and he shared it. So here we're seeing it. Great voiceover. And an old man sitting on a bench. Writing in his journal. Getting sunlight.

37:57So here's the simple workflow. So yeah, I asked Presh to do a how-to because people are making these incredible videos and some people are spending 50 or 150 or$250 ,000 doing them. Other people are doing them with AI. And I think Presh is in that group. So let's hear from Presh how he did it. All right. Here is our dear friend explaining the nuts and bolts of how to do this yourself if you want to. It's a simple workflow. Started with the concept. We narrowed down to this, a letter to my younger self concept, which is basically 100-year-old grandpa writes a letter to his younger self As his pen touches the notebook, there's a bunch of shots of me doing a number of healthy activities.

38:38The reason I chose my grandpa was I just recently hired him. Welcome to the team. Welcome to the team. Congratulations. So he became the first chief centenarian officer. I wanted to find a fun way to include him in this waitlist video. Then I wanted to script it out in storyboard. This is where I use ChatGPT. I basically prompted it with this and got a whole structure out of it. So now we have the concept. We have the script. Now we want to create a storyboard. The storyboard now comes after creating the script. So we basically have this script and structure. So we're going to pop that into GPT, ask it to start creating stills.

39:13You can refine this further, but that ends up looking like is something like this. While I make the storyboard - Okay, let's pause there. ...and stills, sketches. And so what he's showing is the prompt he wrote. So he comes up with the concept, a hundred year old writing a letter to himself, says, let's make this into a script, gets basically a scene by scene of what should be in this ad, this promo video. And then it generated sketches in storyboards for him. Then he took the storyboards and then he made them reality. And this is just wild when you think about it. Keep going. Drawn by hand for the scene.

39:52For example, a sketch of a grandpa sitting outside on a bench. And again, I'm just doing like a rough draft here just because I want to see how the story lays out before we make the actual thing. You could use VO Sora if you wanted like actual videos. And now I have about 20 stills that create the whole story. So we got the concept, we got the script and storyboard. So for the voiceover, we use 11 labs. We're going to go to text to speech and put the script that I want created. And for voice, I'm either going to search their library or create a voice. If you go to the voices section and create our clone of voice.

40:25And so I use a combination of different voices to create this old man speak. Anyways, you get the idea. I'll go here and I'll just download that into an MP3. VoiceOver is done. Now we want to go to music. What I did was I basically took that into chat and said, give me a prompt. That being his description of the advertisement. And I went over to this other tool called Sora. Using chat, I outputted this prompt as well. He means Suna. To give to Sora to then create. Make sure it's an instrumental track and it'll create different versions in Sora. So I can go through, pick a track that makes sense that I like.

40:59Now we have the concept, we have the script, we have the storyboard, we have the music, we have the voiceover, and now we just need to edit it together. And simple editing tool, I'm going to bring in cap cut. And so I took all the stills and just placed them out here. So we have almost just over 20 stills here. I'm going to drop the audio track from 11 labs. I'm going to drop the audio track from Suno. And then it turns out to sound and look like this. To the younger man I once was. So the idea here, again, we're not even going to ship this really. It's just for our own like creative process, seeing if we like the concept enough to make it real.

41:36And that's it. That's the process of how to make a quick concept video. I thought it was fantastic. I love the fact that he went through every single tool in order, showed them how to do it. Because I could do that now, Jason, in a couple hours. I love it. Yeah. I mean, eventually you'll be able to do this in one LLM or in a browser with agents that'll do the entire process for you. Right now, you have to use the best of breed tools to make each piece and then stitch them together. And the interesting thing is he could have just released it as the sketches, and I think it would be really effective.

42:11I think they went and took this concept, and you refine the concept, you refine the concept. The other person who did this quite famously, I believe, and our executive director, Lon, our director, Lon, will correct me if I'm wrong, but perhaps my favorite director of all time, Ridley Scott, definitely in my top two, three. Ridley Scott was known for doing storyboards constantly. And I think he learned to do them himself. And he would storyboard all these ideas and sets and everything, whether it was aliens or gladiator. and he could just do them himself. What that does is it lets you kind of get a feel for the story before you do something expensive like hire actors.

42:56And you can kind of see if the tone works and if everything works. So this is genius. We have a company, Saga, which does this, that we incubated in our accelerator and we'll pull up Saga in a moment. Yeah, and here's the picture. Thank you, producer Alon, of Ridley Scott doing the Alien. Pull this up. This is incredible. Check this out. It's in the twist taping room. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Here is the image, Jason, which shows a number of different screens. Would these be individual scenes that I'm looking at here? Yeah, so I guess what we're looking at, and let me pull it up on mine. Yeah, these are each individual scene.

43:39And then I guess there's a title and then notes underneath it. But he would draw these himself. And if you look on the top right, you're seeing the side view of a human with the face hugger on it, the iconic face hugger. And what's great about that, and then you can see the engineer, and the second one on the right is, I think, the engineer and its ship, or, you know, somebody going ready to be in a cryovac, et cetera. Acid dripping, you know, as when you kill these aliens, there are acid drips on the left, and it's just some blood drops. All of this is to say he doesn't have to tell people what he wants.

44:16He can show what he wants. And then here, if you pull up the Napoleon ones, so here you see Napoleon. And I think those are the scene numbers on the left, 53, 61. And he was just great at drawing these in real time. Just think about how much time this saves when you're trying to explain something to somebody. And this is really indicative of how AI is going to make everybody Ridley Scott level. Presh is not Ridley Scott. He has not made 10 films, but he's doing what Ridley Scott did. So the gap between the auteur and the amateur is closing. Yeah. You know, so from amateur to autor, I think the distance between those things was a lifetime.

45:02It was decades. Now the distance is gonna be, you know, instead of 10 ,000 or 20 ,000 hours, I think it goes down to 100 or 1 ,000 hours. If pressure were to do that process every day, a different storyboard, a different 30-second scene, and he did it for 100 days, so he put in 110-hour days or 12-hour days, speaking of 996, So imagine if you did 100 12-hour days. You know, now you're 1 ,200 hours into your career. What would the 100th day look like versus his first day of doing that? This should be inspiring to young people who can't get jobs. All these young people who can't get jobs, we've talked about static team size, we talk about AI, displacing jobs.

45:45Here's the opposite of it. You could become Ridley Scott level, I believe, in 100 days. You could do things that Ridley Scott does. You might not do them with as much panache. You might not have the instincts he has, but you would get damn close. Lon, if somebody did this 100 days in a row with these tools, how good would they be at making visual scenes in your mind? I think an amazing thing is, yeah, like filmmakers, a lot of them really do just spend obsessive amounts of time thinking about how things would look, how they would block them out. I once, not to toot my own horn, but I once chatted with John Woo.

46:23I interviewed him for Mission Impossible 2, and he could still, years later, tell you every setup for the killer. Well, we put the camera here. We were behind this corner. We had to move it around here. He just committed all that to memory. The whole scene was in his head so that on the day when he was directing people, he'd be like, you, you need to be right here. The light needs to be here. He just had the movie already playing out in his head before he ever set foot on the set. Incredible. So everybody go follow Preshy Poo, my Preshy Poo. He came to work for me, quit school, came to work for me at 18.

46:55We backed his startup. He's doing great. And what's his Twitter? X.com slash Presh D. Kumar. And if you want to check out Tempo, the company he's working on, join Tempo.app. We love this guy. Thank you, Presh, for making us that video. And we'll put the links in the docket. If you want to read the docket, you go to thisweekinstartups.com slash docket. And then we'll put it in the show notes as well. We'll put the links to all this great stuff. So if you listen to This Week in Startups and we give you some tips here and tactical stuff from the founders in our portfolio, we're going to link to it all the time.

47:28You can go to thisweekinstartups.com slash docket and see previous episodes' dockets. Get in there and get all those links. So if you watch This Week in Startups three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, sometimes we throw in a Tuesday show because we're sold out of ads and they talk me into adding a show, you're going to just become a better founder. And that's why we do this show. We're passionate about founders and technology and inspiring people to start companies. And here you are. You're listening to the show and you are going to get better and better at starting companies and learning these tactical techniques if you're hanging out with us.

48:02The big news this week on the Anthropic front, Jason, is that the company has tapped Google for an enormous compute purchase. They're going to get up to 1 million of Google's TPUs in a deal worth up to tens of billions of dollars and it's going to bring on more than a gigawatt of capacity to the company in 2026. Now reading this news I know a lot of folks out there might not know what a TPU is so I went ahead and did a little prep work and asked producer Claude what is that? Well it's an ASIC or an application specific integrated circuit that is essentially designed just for these machine working sorry machine learning workloads.

48:41Basically they're designed to do a lot of mathematical operations very, very quickly. And that's what powers the neural nets that we all love and know. And just for a little background here, they've been working on the TPU since I think 2013, something around there. So they've been in the game for a long time. If you want to use Claude like we do, you can go to Claude.ai slash twist. It gets started. We have a 50 % discount for three months, but Jason, essentially Google TPUs are better. They're more efficient. They have lower costs and they're tailored for this kind of work, but more to the point, I'm shocked that Anthropic is kind of putting aside.

49:12It's a long-term deal with Amazon. on its preferred partner for both training and inference to go rack up with Google. I was curious what you thought about why they made this choice. I think any compute advantage these large language models can get, they're going to take. What's fascinating about this one is that Gemini, Google, the Gemini large language Model Anthropic and Claude, they're direct competitors. So this is perplexing, interesting, confounding, strange bedfellows. Yeah. If you're Anthropic and you're giving money and doing this partnership with Google and you're both competing for customers, users, businesses, developers, and APIs, it's kind of interesting.

50:11And as we say in our industry, no conflict, no interest. What this signals to me is the Anthropic team and the Google team are collaborating. They're in like with each other. They might not be in love, but they're in like with each other. Who else is in like with each other? Satya Nadell and OpenAI were in love with each other. I think they've dropped down to in like with each other. And I noticed Satya, Nadella and Elon are in like with each other. So, and NVIDIA is in love with everybody. Jensen loves everybody equally. But this is the place we are. The other thing I think is super interesting is amongst the LLM companies, some have money printing machines.

50:59So if you were to look at the foundation models, You've got Grok, OpenAI, Anthropic, Mistral. Yeah, Mistral. Mistral. I guess I'm including them. And then you have Gemini. And you have Llama, what Zuck is working on. I think that's probably your big six. Am I missing anybody there? I mean, we could bring up the Amazon and Microsoft models, but given that you and I always forget the names of those families of models. Yeah, I don't see them coming up yet. So if we just take those six, look at those six. Of those six, which ones have money printing machines? Which ones have money printing machines?

51:42Profitable machines, earnings machines? Well, Gemini. Google, correct. And Meta. Okay. This puts them at a significant long-term advantage. meta and Google can build infrastructure at a pace that the other four have to go raise money for. So let's pause on this for a second. Now, one would argue Gemini is probably in third or fourth place typically. And I think Lama is typically in sixth place or fifth or sixth place. So the companies at the top are obviously open AI. Um, and then I would say Claude and Grock, that's probably your one, two, and three. And then your four or five and six, Mishra might, uh, probably Lama's six, Mishra's five.

52:31And yeah. So you can start to look at this and I wonder if Google and Meta have a huge advantage in that they could start deploying hardware out of scale that the others cannot. Now, the others are the bells of the ball right now because they have the best product and people want to be on their cap table. And then this makes me wonder, why is Apple with their war chest and Microsoft with their war chest not participating in this lunacy of building out huge data centers, huge infrastructure? I guess Google is. I wonder if Microsoft too, but it's less speculative for them, Jason, because they talked about it in earnings and they've said, we just have the inference demand and we're just building against kind of like proven bookings so with them i'm not that concerned but i think that the the economy between the money printers and the money needers is very important because when you think about xai and open ai they are spending tens of billions of dollars on infra anthropic isn't they're raising money from the major cloud companies amazon i think eight billion google about three billion and they're getting access to compute so i kind of wonder and i you know i don't want to sound too nice to anyone here but like is anthropic kind of nailing this because they're not taking on the infra side quest yeah partnerships i think are a way to win here if you want to go far you go together if you want to go fast you go alone so going alone i think will give you a massive speed advantage in the short term and i think building up partnerships could make you go further Of course, you might be inspiring the value to be accreting to your partner, not you.

54:17And this is the OpenAI-Microsoft relationship personified. Who's getting the value? OpenAI has the branch at GPT that has the largest number of users, but their percentage of market share has been going down consistently. Now, they're still growing because the pie is getting bigger. But if you look at, they were 98 % of the market three years ago. I don't know where they are now, but I think they're probably 80 % of the market now. In terms of consumers and developers using this stuff, they're going to keep going down on a percentage basis. Just like Amazon Web Services had the game to themselves before Azure and...

54:54Yeah, literally. And before Azure and Google Cloud and Oracle came on strong. So now you have four people competing for that. Three major and Oracle coming on strong. Oracle's really not going to take this lying down. They see cloud computing as a big accelerant of their business, obviously. So really interesting. I do think these kind of partnerships mean more stability. And, you know, like you're saying, if inference is taken off the table for them and it's solved by somebody else, that's sort of like when Dropbox, this is a history lesson for folks. Dropbox launched at the conference I created with TechCrunch, TechCrunch 40, TechCrunch 50.

55:37You remember back in the day, I created this conference with an old friend of mine. We're no longer friends, but an old friend of mine begged me to do this conference with him, and I did it with him. And Dropbox launched there. And I remember meeting the guys. Dropbox didn't work. They were running it out of Sequoia's offices, and they were just having a heck of a time getting the software to work. I remember their pitch, which I think was at the first TechCrunch 40. We can look up TechCrunch40 pitch for this. And I think actually I own the TechCrunch40 YouTube site. I got to go find it. But they did a great job.

56:09They also went back and forth. Do they have their own infrastructure? Is that cheaper? Do they use AWS when that was the only game in town? Would they be giving it all over? And this going back and forth as to, is it an advantage to have your own infrastructure or is it a disadvantage? Was just personified by 37 signals. And one of our crack researchers will pull up this video that was just shared on Twitter, now x.com, of David Handmeyer Hansen, DHH, which is his Twitter handle as well, x.com slash DHH. Really smart cat, friend of the pod. We've got to have him back on soon. DHH just did an analysis, and he open sourced it and told everybody of how much money they're saving by getting off of other clouds.

56:55I don't know if they're Azure or AWS, but play this video and show the chart when we have it. This is extraordinary. I think this is like main character energy. Some of my producers, I think we missed this main character energy, but DHH. I think I had the right clip right here, Jason. Let me get this set up for us. By the way, a great six-hour conversation between Lex Friedman and David back in the day. Oh, the clip that I have is him standing up talking. do you know that's the one i'm talking about i was just also giving a promo to my friend lex friedman all right here is dhh talking about aws spend we were paying aws 3.4 million dollars we've taken that money invested it into our own gear and we own it ourselves and we're not down today it was not a major crisis when aws was uh was down and now we can nuke it so let's do it ready let's push They literally are deleting their AWS instance.

57:56That is such good TV. He shared the table of how much he spent year after year on cloud computing. And he estimated that they are probably saving, like I said, a million or two million a year. Who knows? Let's just say if they're saving a million dollars a year over 10 years, 10 million dollars to the bottom line. It does add complexity. So, um, there is a back and forth that all founders go through. Should we stand up infrastructure? Should we use other people's infrastructure? You can go faster when you use other people's infrastructure because you don't have to take on that responsibility and build out the team.

58:30When you do have unlimited resources, and the great example of this would be Elon with XAI, and Elon knows more about factories and physical production of items than anybody on the planet with the possible exception or, you know, co-leader of Flexport maybe, right? Or not Flexport. Is it, yeah, Flexport produces - Ryan Peterson? No, no, that's Flexport. Flextronics, are they the ones who the iPhone goes, they subcontract to? Anyway, there's China - Singaporean American multinational manufacturing company that does end-to-end advanced manufacturing, Flextronics? Yes, Flextronics. So Flextronics are the people who build the iPhones.

59:11They're based in Singapore, like some companies like TikTok are based in Singapore, but they're Chinese companies, you know, but if you look at this chart, um, they have their AWS and Google bill and the total, and, you know, at their peak, they're spending 3.4 million in 2019. The total they spent, uh, between AWS and Google from 2017 to 2025,$21 million. And so there you have it folks. You could potentially save a lot of money doing this, but you will be slowed down. So you've got to be thoughtful about it. That extra million dollars they spent a year, let's say, probably well worth it if you're building, I think they probably have 30, 40, 50 million dollars in revenue, 37 signals.

59:56So if they got 50 million in revenue, you don't sweat the million dollars in expense if you're trying to go fast and you got competitors. However, at some point, you may want to look at it and optimize. This is why Oracle is being so aggressive. Oracle's going to people saying, give us your cloud bill. Whatever your cloud bill is, we're going to cut it in half. And so I just, I know some of the people at Oracle and they are aggressively, like Google Cloud and Azure, were very aggressive last couple of years, trying to increase their growth rate compared to AWS. All of them are growing. They're all incredible businesses.

1:00:29Well, that's because the cloud is just doing insanely awesome things. I mean, dear God, can you imagine? I mean, what happened when AWS region went down? The entire world ground to a halt. That's how much we depend on these guys. And that's when you can be multi-cloud. You know, you can just go multi-cloud at some point and distribute a cloud, and you can move from one to the other. You can use your own internal infrastructure for some things that are cheaper. And you can have hybrid cloud, right? So there's a lot of options here. Very important for founders, I think, to not take this on early.

1:00:58I don't think it's an advantage in the first three or four years at all. I think it's a huge advantage to use cloud providers, obviously. Another amazing episode of This Week in Startups is in the can. We'll see you all on Monday. Bye-bye.