Savvy is HQ Trivia + Wordle (feat. Scott Rogowsky) | E2245

24:02You have to provide value. If you're not providing value, you see the unsubscribes. If you are providing value, you see the subscribes. And then you can see people subscribe to a higher tier. So it does create a purity that just going for like some large audience and not really being tight doesn't allow for. So I think it's awesome. I wish you continued success. Everybody go try Sabi. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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25:17I only get six or seven hours. So it's time to elevate your skincare routine with Caldera. Head to calderalab.com slash twist and use the code TWIST at checkout for 20 % off your first order. That's C-A-L-D-E-R-A-L-A-B.com slash TWIST. CalderaLab.com slash TWIST. I'm sitting down with a company called Starfish Space. And if you are a regular TWIST listener, you may recall we had them on in early 2025. This is a company building what I call Tugs in Space. They'll help you move your satellites around. They are the most blue-collar space startup I've ever seen in my life. and I absolutely adore them.

25:56I have them back on the show today, not just because I want to talk to the company again, but also because they've been doing a lot of very interesting things, including getting close to other friends in space. So please join me in welcoming Trevor Bennett to the show, co-founder of Starfish. How are you doing, Trevor? Great. Yeah. Thanks for having me on and happy to talk about Starfish today, which is great. So for folks who don't know, tell me about Otter and tell me what it's for. Yeah, absolutely. So Starfish Space, we're designing and building what we call the otter spacecraft otter is a spacecraft capable flying around and docking with other spacecraft in orbit which is not something historically done on a commercial scale in the space industry and it's also not done where you can have hundreds of otters flying in in space so we've seen some incredible missions over time where we've serviced satellites in orbit we've taken the space shuttle up and provided new mirrors and new cameras for Hubble.

26:46We've consistently flown things to and from space station. We have actually gone and done demonstration missions where two satellites can dock in orbit. And you have Gemini missions where people were able to dock it. The problem has been over time that it has been one-off or high value or high dollar missions only that get that kind of attention and capability. And what we're trying to do and rightly put, maybe the blue collar nature in us here is let's make docking just It's an everyday part of the job and something that is no longer a unique or challenging capability. It just is ubiquitous. It's just an everyday life for space assets.

27:20And that's what Otter is designed to do. Designed to go and fly up to other satellites, dock with them, provide maneuvering, allowing it to fly into new orbits, provide station keeping, which is where it keeps it in the same place and fights against all these different forces that tug on spacecraft as they go. And in some cases, and kind of where we're going next is the ability to do satellite servicing and recycling and manufacturing in orbit. And if you can have a satellite, they can go dock with other satellites. That's definitely the first step along the way. You guys also do deorbiting, which is essentially the opposite of providing lift.

27:48It's pushing things back. Oh, wait, no, it's slowing them down so they fall out of orbit. Memory, sir. Kind of sometimes a retroactive way of thinking there where we actually slow it down to come down and speed up to go up. And that's definitely how the orbits work for us. Deorbiting and disposing is actually part of an end of a life cycle for satellites. Historically, this has been where we just leave satellites in orbit or individual operators can go and deorbit it. Now, hundreds of thousands of satellites are in orbit and going to continue to drive in that way. And so this now is a resource and a shared real estate where everybody is trying to maintain not only the capability that they have with their specific satellites, but making sure that that stays a place that everybody can continue to fly.

28:30And so that's what Disposal does. It helps kind of keep those areas clean at the end of life. And in some places actually lets satellites continue to operate much past their original design life, which we'll talk about here in a bit. So how many satellites do you think need to be deorbited each year? I'm trying to get my head around how many missions the otters of the future might need to run to ensure that we're doing our proper space trash work. Yes, I think it definitely scales with the number of satellites that go up there. The major users are the big constellations. And each one of those constellations are flying anywhere between a couple hundred to 20 ,000, 40 ,000 satellites.

29:04And so there's a potential that hopefully not every single one of them needs to be deorbited by us, this little tow truck that comes and provides that extra service. But a fair number of them might, right? And that's where we can go and scale the business here. So what that number looks like in the next couple of years, that looks like 10, 20 otters that go to space in the kind of midterm over the next kind of 10 years. Maybe that's hundreds of otters that are up there flying and providing these missions. And just for folks who aren't really up to speed on satellite size, how big is an Otter and how does that compare to, let's just say, the average Starlink center?

29:37Yes, a great question. Where Otter is, Otter is the size of like an oven that you have in your house. And it's a few hundred kilograms, like 300 kilograms, which is double that, 600 pounds, right? So that's kind of where we sit, which is rather small for spacecraft that are so capable. You think of maybe some sense of some data points here. some of our customers, which are up in geo for life extension with Otter, are the size of a school bus, you know, huge solar panels. Geo is geosynchronous orbit, which is higher than much higher up there, right? Yep. Something like a Starlink satellite, right?

30:10That's on, you know, on par with where we are. Maybe they're a little bit bigger than us at times too. And so that's, you know, a small car is probably some of how these cars work. So that's kind of the range that the large customer base might be. It could also go down as small as a microwave oven to still be useful for us. And so that's kind of the range that we go in service with the otter. And the otter has a device that lets it to attach to satellites out there. I presume that's relatively small, so you could actually attach it to a satellite of effectively any size? Yes, yes. What's really driving the size is just how much we can manipulate it and control it.

30:45The actual manipulator itself, which we like to call Nautilus, because we like to keep a lot of nautical themes going on here at Starfish, Nautilus actually can capture any type of spacecraft geometry. And that's actually unique in the industry right now because it doesn't require any change to the satellite. So size is not the only challenge that satellite servicing has faced. It's also faced that these satellites were built sometimes five or 20 years ago and servicing was not a thing. And so if you have these satellites that are up there and have never thought like, oh gosh, how am I going to get a service in the near future?

31:18Then that's where Starfish has built this kind of custom piece of hardware to go and interface with it so we can meet them where they are today and actually go have it adopted today rather than waiting another 20 years before we can provide value.

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32:13So we can zero in on the best overall applications right away. Nearly 60 % of companies find a quality candidate within their first week. So hire right the first time and get$100 off your first job posting by going to linkedin.com slash twist. Terms and conditions apply. So on the Otterfront business model side, I'm curious because when we think about these major constellations, Starlink, and I know there's Project Kuiper or Leo now from Amazon and Tearaway from Blue Origin and the EU is building one and China is building one. Everyone wants to have their own constellation. Correct. Are you guys going to sell them Otters or are you going to run the fleet yourself in orbit and provide essentially services?

32:53I could argue this either way. I'm kind of curious what the plan is. And the industry has argued it either way. Where Starfish has really landed is on the service side. And so otters are going to be owned and operated by Starfish as much as we can. And the real reason for doing that is really twofold. One is on the customer side, what they really care about is the service that they're getting. They want a disposal. They want a life extension. They want a repair. That's not buying an otter. that's buying, you know, what the actual interface that we do with them and provide the disposal. And so that's just beneficial for both parties now, because we're transacting on the thing that actually provides value to both.

33:30The second thing that's useful for us at Starfish is by us operating and maintaining this whole fleet of otters, we actually get to continue to improve the entire stack the entire time. And so one of the things that we'll potentially get to here is that Starfish has really leaned in on the software side and the autonomy side. And so these spacecraft fly themselves. And if we continue to practice across an entire fleet and continue to maintain that, that just gets easier and easier and easier for everybody. And so that scale that we're trying to get to as an industry, we can go faster by making sure that that is a service model rather than individual owners having to learn how to fly their respective satellites and having a bunch of, you know, archaic systems that are just designed for them.

34:10We can take that on and it's actually beneficial for us too. Okay. So if you need 10 or 20 honors in the next couple of years to do all the deorbiting, just picking one category of work and you need a couple of hundred down the road when the space economy is even bigger. How many can you fit in say, I don't know, one SpaceX Falcon launch? Yeah, many. And that's part of the goal. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so there's, there's really kind of two full models here. One of the challenges that the industry has also faced is servicing vehicles have been really large. And so they call it, they get a dedicated launch.

34:36It was just the servicing vehicle that gets, gets the ride to space. We want to challenge that paradigm and actually recognize like if you're launching a constellation one of the slots rather than being the actual uh vehicle that's going to go provide the service you could just put an otter in there and now otter is going up with the constellation and can provide value for the rest of that part of the constellation that's that's kind of a rideshare model but you could also imagine if we want to go launch hundreds we could just buy every slot on the on the falcon 9 and launch tens of otters at a time and oh tens at a time that's incredible okay i mean credit to like like Falcon 9 and other launch vehicles for actually having enough capacity.

35:11But I think also really a credit to kind of the Arc system architecture that we've driven towards, which is 300 kilograms-ish is actually a rather small vehicle for how capable this is. And you can put a number of 300 kilogram vehicles on the same launch vehicle. That's fantastic. All right, now let's turn to current news, because in December you guys announced the successful completion of the Remora mission with our friends over at Impulse Space. And I'm going to read you the verbiage, everyone, and then we're going to let the guy actually explain it. But this was a fully autonomous rendezvous with a single lightweight camera system and closed loop guidance, navigation and control software running on a peripheral flight computer.

35:48So I think that means your satellite executed the mission on its own using just one camera, albeit the processing work was done offsite. Actually, the processing was done on board, which is pretty wild as well. Oh, peripheral flight computer means it's actually on the... Oh, okay. Yes, and we can dive into what that actually means. Yeah, please. Essentially what it is, is imagine having what we call a main flight computer, which is the fail safe. If anything goes wrong, that has just the critical functions on it. Outside of that, we want extra processing to do things like cloud computing or extra camera and imagery processing or extra comms payloads.

36:25All of those things become peripheral computers. And essentially you just got to plug it in like you would plug a normal computer, an extra keyboard or something into this main computer, and then you get extra capability. And those are the peripherals. And so for us, what we were doing was actually separating out two parts of it. One, which is just the ability to make sure that the vehicle just stayed healthy and safe. And then our software, which then did all the guidance planning and the image processing and made sure that we could both use what our camera was, becomes the eyes, takes an image in, figures out where the two satellites are based off of that image, and then passes that off to another part of our software that then plans a maneuver, which says, okay, we want to get another 100 meters closer, fire the thruster at this time in this direction, and we'll start marching ourselves in.

37:11And then we could just do that over and over and over again and march ourselves all the way in from pretty far out. I feel like I buried the lead here. The important thing here is that this was a rendezvous operation, which means you're bringing one bit of space machinery closer to the other. And given how fast they're moving and the fact that we're in orbit, this is a difficult task. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sense of scale here and how difficult this is. in the time it takes you to blink your eye, we've traveled a mile. That's how fast these satellites are moving. And when we actually go and do this maneuver, it's almost like traveling that mile after blinking your eye and trying to high five your friend on the highway at the same time out the window.

37:48The relative velocity though, of the two objects would get closer over time, I presume. So doesn't that make it easier, the closer you can match speed because then you have almost two static objects. Yeah. Your intuition is right on. And that's the goal of what we call rendezvous. Rendezvous is actually to try to match those speeds. And as we get closer and closer, we get more information as to how to correct that. What the problem is, is in general, if you don't know the difference in your speeds, then you can't make that correction. That's really what our software does is it tries to appreciate the difference in speed.

38:22And then the maneuvering is that that thruster firing is actually to get closer and closer to matching the speed. And so that's exactly what a roundabout is. Your navigation software is called cephalopod going back to the, um, not nautical theme. The nautical theme is rich with us here. Yeah. So we have cephalopod and cetacean. Um, cephalopod does the guidance planning, which is the path planning. So you like kind of your Google maps, if you will, it plots the course. And then cetacean is our relative navigation suite, which is the camera part. And to, you know, help provide a little bit of context, why we called those cephalopod is the smart creature brain and cetacean from echolocation of these creatures, right?

38:58It's kind of that range finding, if you will. And so those are kind of easy ways to remember how those map to some of the core tech that we have. Yes. That's not going to fall out of my head the moment we finish this call because I spend so much time thinking about marine biology. No, no. Nerds welcome, man. I mean, that's the whole point of technology stuff. Why do this if it wasn't fun, right? Preach. Preach. We could all just go work for IBM. Yeah. Okay. So the thing that stood out to me is use a single lightweight camera. So you're not using a lot of fancy tech to pull off this rendezvous on the Remora mission.

39:28So has, has someone done a similar rendezvous with a similar camera setup, or is this the first time we've tried to do with what sounds like an iPhone camera strapped onto an object moving at a mile? We believe that this is really the first time it's done this way. Yeah. And, and you're talking about the camera being simple. That was the goal. Our goal was to make it hardware simple and put the complexity in the software and put the complexity in other parts of it. And that's what allows scale, right? And if we're talking about trying to build many of these, what we were trying to prove out is the core thesis for ourselves, which was with a single camera and some clever software, you could do what was seemingly a complex mission that previously was required a lot of extra hardware and a lot of extra sensing.

40:11And so maybe again, like try to anchor that in some touch points here to do what the space shuttle did to go dock with another spacecraft. It was the size of an oven or a really large microwave in sensors to go do the docking. That's been true for even commercial companies today. They use really heavy, exquisite packages for this. And we could just go strap an iPhone camera on and go do this mission. And that really is what allows us to go and do this in a whole new way. It does feel like we're moving away from the artistic era of building spacecraft into the industrial era. Like think back to early Cray supercomputers.

40:44One of them had a fountain of coolant. We were like, we were showing off because we didn't know what we were doing. And these were not something you ordered out of Granger's catalog, right? But it does feel like you guys are dumbing down intelligently the hardware side to put more brains in the software side. And that's going to make things cheaper, faster and also updatable in more orbit. Exactly, you're spot on. Let's go make the personal computers for space. Let's make this proliferated where it's, where everybody can go and use this service and it becomes, yeah, the norm. All right. So the Remora mission, you got within 1 ,250 meters or in American, that's like a mile.

41:20Yeah, it's a little less than a mile. Yeah, like three quarters of a mile. There you go. A success. And then you guys also had the Otter Prop 2 mission, which is the second of your Otter test missions going on last year. How did that one go? Yeah. So Otter Prop 2 is still in space. It's still performing its core mission set here. And that mission is going to go further than Remora and actually go and attempt to dock with another craft. And when will that happen? That sometime this year is our expectation for that. Sometime, it's January, Trevor. I mean, can't you be slightly more, in the next 11 and a half months?

41:51Maybe as a quick sidebar here, the space industry is notorious for making promises and not delivering on them. And one of the things that we really want to make sure we do well at Starfish is actually talk about the successes that we have, but also manage expectations there and be clear that space is hard, right? And it's an easy thing to say, but what that really translates into is there's always unpredictable steps. There could be an issue on the spacecraft or issues on the ground or development timelines or competing priorities. And those things can shift the timeline. And I would rather tell people like, hey, we're actually going and flying through the core mission set and we'll share all of the technical detail and data as that unfolds, instead of saying, well, it's definitely going to happen in February and like keep the eyes out, right?

42:32Okay. The thing though that I'm curious about is learnings from both the Remora mission and the second Otter Pup mission. Have you found anything that's going to slow down the commercial launch of otter or are things looking good if anything it's accelerated the ability to do the commercial launch for otter yeah which is what you would hope for in a demo mission right so it's easy to say uh some of the cool things that have happened from from a war and otter pup one is taking a picture of another spacecraft is so valuable for the things that we do on the ground and a couple of ways that's really valuable one is there's not a lot of imagery in space of other spacecraft.

43:06And so we have to artificially create what it might look like so that we can build our algorithms. And that artificial creation is like, let's take a game dev engine and let's go pretend like we can see another spacecraft on our own computer. And then let's design our algorithm against that. When we get real spacecraft imagery, we get to slot that in and actually do a lot more like enriched development and actually change our models on the ground. So this is a little bit too deep in the weeds, but I'm just curious. So So every satellite that goes up or most of them that are not like, you know, defense or whatever, I presume we kind of know what they look like.

43:38We've also gotten really good at digital twinning. We've gotten really good at simulation, like asking the F1 team, why is it actually better to have a picture of a thing if we already knew what it looked like on the ground and could therefore model it effectively already? It's a great question. And you're right on many fronts that we've gotten a lot better at things like CAD models. We have an actual model there. There are effects that we have on the ground that we are in space that we don't have on the ground. For example, without a rich atmosphere, sunlight bounces off of objects differently in space than it does on the ground.

44:10Right. And so that's just one of those things where like if you look at it on the ground, you get this nice like blue sky in space. It's harsh black. Right. And so we have to pretend like we can see that. And we can't see that from the ground either. Right. And if you're using one simple camera. And one simple camera. And so let's now talk about that a little bit too, because there are properties of the camera that change in space. Like just the heat that's applied might change the lens shape or the way the light is bouncing off the lens might change the color and contrast. And so those are all the things that we have to learn about in space and actually test in the real environment.

44:46We could do some modeling on the ground. You talked about digital twinning. We've gotten clever about predicting what that thermal effect might look like or that sunlight reflection might look like. But there's some knobs that we still turn every time we go to space. And those are the knobs that we get to turn now and actually get to improve the way our software works. And sometimes that translates to more performance. We can be moving faster in orbit because we have more confidence in the way it works. Or we can take more mass out of the system because there's less uncertainty in our next iteration.

45:13And so those are the things that actually get to play. And that's really the value of doing demo missions and real flight experiences is we get to go and improve the ground-based models. Same reason why F1 does track days, right? They go put a bunch of sensors on it and then it's all about the racing for the season. I have not been putting off work by reading every single bit of scrap that I can from the Barcelona tests at all. Not at all, right. No, no. Who? Me? No, definitely not. And all those teams that are like, hey, I'll just go do modeling instead of actually doing some real track time, you know?

45:40I guess now I'm not talking to my question. You should have been like, F1 also uses both modeling and testing. Yeah, fair enough. Okay, so we talked about the major constellations that are doing essentially satellite internet. Very important. Lots of satellites. The majority, actually, now. But I'm curious about the pace of growth in what I call the space economy. Like things happening inside of orbit, your Vardas, your companies that are trying to do work in space, which I presume is going to be an important customer base for Starfish in time. So can you, from where you said, just tell everyone listening what's going on in the space economy viz startups?

46:18I think that's something that people don't really understand well. Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are several trends that are emerging and I'll try to touch on those quickly and we can dive in where interest lies. One trend is that and one thing that we're trying to push is that space can be its own economy and ecosystem. That no longer you just go to space to serve a ground based customer. You can go to space to serve a space based customer. And we're maybe like a direct correlation there. Like our business model is not serving a consumer watching the F1 race. We are servicing the satellites that broadcasts the F1 race.

46:51And so we are a space-to-space business. Another change that's happening is we're expanding the number of use cases for space, right? You look at the Vardas or the others that are thinking, okay, we'll do some manufacturing in these capsules and downmass it. Talk about LEO commercial destinations. Let's try to bring people and science up there a little bit more. We think about new cloud computing and structures and AI, right? Like there are more use cases there. Exactly, right? What has been a mainstay for a long time is communications. That's not going away. It's only increasing. As a species, we are hungry for data.

47:24And so finding ways to get more data is always going to be a win. But now we're seeing there's an expansion of other opportunities that could exist there, resources and other things that we'll see in the distant future, but are on the horizon. Those are the growing types of businesses that can exist. I think the third thing that's really happening and we can acknowledge is that it's shifting away the access to space and the utilization of space is shifting away from just a couple of large superpowers, maintaining persistence and moving towards commercial access. Many countries having a vested interest, seeing it as a strategic value to the nation and also a strategic resource.

48:06And so trying to claim some use there. And so these three trends, I think, are some of the more dominant ones. And they're really pulling the industry in a variety of interesting ways. You didn't touch on something that I thought you might there, which was falling launch costs. And, you know, I talked to the StarCloud guys and they're like, look, you know, our entire company is a bet that these are going to go down because we need to put so much mass up in orbit. And you know what? I love a binary bet. Bring it on. But like we don't have Starship yet. And, you know, Blue Origin is making progress with the New Glenn, but it's not, you know, going up every month right now.

48:37Correct. So do you think that the space economy can continue to evolve in the ways that you're describing without a reduction in cost per kilogram? Or are we still waiting and expecting that to happen to make all the magic we're seeing sustainable up there in Leo or Geo? It's a great question. And one that we should definitely acknowledge, like launch costs have come way down and folks like SpaceX and hopefully Blue and others will be major drivers in continuing that trend here. We have taken a major step function as an industry. I think over the last 10 years, because that major step function down in cost has happened, there's room to grow still, even without further reduction in cost.

49:15So there's still capacity in the Falcon 9 era, essentially. I think so, at that price point, right? If it continues to come down, like, all the better. Like, let's keep utilizing it and going, yeah, more stuff to space, indeed. What has also changed is just availability. And I would highlight that even more so than cost. for us and the missions that we launched with remora with otter pop with with otters we can actually look forward and say oh a transporter mission is coming every three months and so we'll pick the one that's like we'll catch that bus and we'll plan for that that time and i think that's a good shift in the industry as well because now it becomes not these discrete moments that just the launch field just slips until the vehicle like the spacecraft is ready it's you're on the bus or you're not on the bus like make sure that you're ready and hitting that cadence and that's a good thing.

50:03And hopefully, you know, additional launch providers will just continue to add to the availability and driving that change. We need 10 times as many rockets going up per day and even then, I think it wouldn't be enough because I would like to go to space without having to sell one of my children. That's right. That's a good child if you can sell it for that much. I mean, I'm a little biased, but I think my kids are fantastic. I think they're worth every penny to send me to space. Okay, Trevor, before I let you go, you guys just announced a big contract with the Space Development Agency, $52.5 million to provide disposal services.

50:35Very, very cool. You guys also had the contract a couple of years back with Space Force for$37 million, and you've raised some venture capital. So my feeling is that there's plenty of money for you guys, but also it's been interesting to see how you raise outside, or you attract capital outside of the venture world. Is that because it's convenient and non-dilutive, or is that because the venture capital world is less enthusiastic about backing space companies? I would say it's neither of those. Really, what our goal is, is let's go build a business. Let's go build something of value. And to build something of value, that means having real contracts with real customers.

51:13Venture capital is super helpful in that process because they help bridge gaps, right? They make sure we get to continue to take the bets and try to build that scale and double down or triple down on the philosophy that we have. But that's only matched, as we've seen, with actual customer traction or customer engagement there. Because that's what venture is really betting on. They're betting on that this is a business in the future. And so what these contracts represent is that there is a real business here. There is real value to be had. And so this exciting announcement for us with SDA, and as you look back to some of the other ones where we've engaged with Space Force and commercial customers and been able to share that involvement, What it's signaling is that customers are willing to pay for this model and that we should go do that.

51:58And that's exactly what we want to do as a business. And we'll bring on venture to help us do what venture does best, which is go take more bets or scale. And we'll bring on the contracts to say this is what the contracts do best, which is the business. You know, venture capitalists love the pattern match. And that's what I was doing. So you and I read about something from the government involving money to a company in space. It's usually a grant, but I should have actually flipped that around and said, no, this is a commercial contract for just work. You just announced a sale, essentially. And that's exactly right.

52:22And I think that that's such a key element of what this contract is and why we are so excited to share the news is because this contract is structured in a way that it's about a service. And this is something that we have tried to profess in the industry and wanted to turn the ship of the industry. The industry was all about sell you an otter and we're selling a service. And SDA agreed. SDA said, that's exactly right. We need to buy this as a service. let's set up a contracting vehicle that not only can we use for this first otter, but for many otters later, like SDA could just continue to follow this model indefinitely.

52:55Other customers of the government or even commercial could follow this model indefinitely. You've set a precedent. We've set it. Yeah, exactly right. And so, you know, credit to SDA for having kind of the rapid maturation of their constellation and the excitement about not just what the initial service is, but the sustainability and maintainability of that constellation going forward. other constellation operators are reaching that similar point where they're thinking about that longevity of their service, not just the initial bring into use. And so that's where Starfish really gets to shine. And that's where we get to share that we've turned a corner as an industry here.

53:27Right company at the right time. Dr. Trevor Bennett, thank you so much for coming on, man. Appreciate you. And I'm sure we'll have you back on in a year and we'll learn about the latest things that have happened because I want to keep doing this every January. Excellent. I really appreciate the time with you here and appreciate the great questions and looking forward to the future as well.