Text-to-UI demo with Galileo AI Co-founder Arnaud Benard + How to design loved products | E1749

0:00And now it's what's really cool is that I think everyone is aware of the language model so it makes the conversation way easier. I think if I was trying to do language model research as a startup three years ago, it would be really hard. But today, because people can see the benefits of using those type of algorithm, I think it's a super exciting opportunity. And I really see that things keep getting better and better and better. So that's even more exciting. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Crowdbotics. Great ideas can change the world. And Crowdbotics is the fastest way to turn those ideas into code.

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1:18There is no funding requirement and it only takes minutes to join. Sign up today at aka.ms slash This Week in Startups. All right, everybody, welcome back to the program. we have another edition of our innovators and builders in AI. Today, I'm really excited about our guest because I love building product. I love UI, user interface, as we say, in the industry. And our guest today is building Galileo AI. His name is Renaud Bernard. Welcome to the program, Arnel. Yeah, I'm super happy to be here today. thanks for inviting me on the show and your uh french i can hear uh are you in france uh are you here in our uh the bay area i'm in san francisco i've been living in the bay area for more than five years now and yeah i'm from geneva in switzerland which is kind of a mix between france and switzerland this yes they yeah they do um and where is there more chaos right now on the streets uh paris or san francisco i kid i kid um let's not get political here it's too early for that but i mentioned you on um the all-in episode uh 115 when we were talking about your product i don't know if you uh if anybody mentioned it to you the the mention of course and i'd like to thank you again for the shout outs it was really a a huge catalyzer for our launch so really appreciate it i was actually just listening to it while doing an errand and i was like oh well that's us so it was pretty funny to hear uh the name of our company while doing something else and it was a nice surprise thank you again uh that's fine just leave a little room on the cap table for your best dj cow um so i always ask my team my producers here at this week in startups uh to show don't tell i was wondering if you could demo your product now because some people are listening we want to sportscast it a bit so if you could describe what's happening on the screen and i'll help you do that a bit if you don't do it perfectly so no worries there but if you are not watching right now good time to go to youtube.com slash this weekend and watch this episode there or if you're using spotify you can just click the video button or turn it sideways it'll play the video and you can always search for this weekend startups our video feed on iTunes.

3:50So we have a separate feed. Podcasting feeds are not perfect. But Arno, take us through. I see we have here a prompt box that says describe your design and then the word generate. So walk us through how your product works. Yeah, so our product is very simple. So we allow people to type the design they want to generate. And basically, I'm going to narrate what's on the screen. It says, design me a chat interface where Ed Sheeran and Batmine having a conversation about quantum physics, as they usually do. And it will say that it's a back and forth conversation. And basically what we do is that we use that prompt for our AI, and the AI will generate a layout for you that is relevant to the prompt you wrote.

4:44and it takes a bit of time to generate but then you will get the layout that makes sense. So you can see here Batman and Ed Sheeran having a conversation about quantum physics and it's all generated right now in the browser. So you can see there's the content, the images, and everything. And it looks like iMessage, right? Like an iMessage thread. Yeah, I mean, the most messaging interface, I would say have a similar design, but yeah. Yeah, or maybe WhatsApp or whatever. Okay. Exactly. And then another one is design me a page to create an event, asking users about event title, description, and I think it's time afterwards.

5:31And I think this example is interesting because you can be very prescriptive about what you want to generate. So before we're a bit on the high level side, where I say just give me some messaging, But what if you're a PM that is working on Facebook events and you really need those fields to be on the UI? Well, the AI is able to understand that and make sure that those elements are going to be on your screen so that you can have a bit more control when you generate the layout. So you can see here you will get the title, the description, date on time, and also a way to invite attendees and create the events.

6:06and now just to be clear um what are we actually making here are we making code are we making a jpeg uh what what exactly is being built here that's a great question when we first launched a lot of people thought we're generating an image and they're like okay i have this image now maybe i can you know paste in a slide or in notion doc or share it with my team but what's actually what regenerating here is actual structured data, actual code. So the way we see it is that it can interface with design tools that are already part of the designer workflow, but it can also generate code. So you can imagine that if you want to use this design part of your developer workflow, you can also do that.

6:51So it's not a JPEG, it's actual code that gets generated. it got it so another example here is the home page for e-commerce app selling cool stuff for techies um like camping gear uh so back to the san francisco theme we were able to generate an e-commerce app that can sell a camping gear and i could take these and i guess uh click a button to export it and i don't want to go ahead of the demo here but into a figma or maybe i could just publish an HTML page and you could host it for me just as like a little mock-up page? Yeah, so for now, we are doing an iteration. We are integrating with Figma.

7:34But as you can imagine, we are iterating with our users to see what they want to do. I think in general, in that field, everything is kind of open because Genetive AI is only one year old. So the way we see it right now is that we focus on two things, speed and quality. So we want to make sure that our designs are high quality and also that it doesn't take too much time to generate and that way the person making the designs can supercharge their workflow so you can see here on on the screen that it's able to generate a new commerce app and i used to work at fair the marketplace startup and i can tell you that collection is something that e-commerce website will have and popular items as well so it's because we are sitting on you know shoulders of giants and large language models, we're able to generate very interesting features.

8:25You're saying some of the features here that are put into the design were not explicitly asked for in the prompt. It's inferring that you might want a feature collection or popular items. Exactly, because that's something that is very popular in e-commerce. And I think that's the value that AI can provide, is that it can kind of expand the creativity of the person using it and get new ideas for features so you see here i put the same prompt a second time but this time the features are very different it asks about it shows for example the top deals so maybe if your brand is more about discounting and selling stuff in bulk you might do better you might do deals but if on the left you're more of a fancy brand and you want to do collections maybe you know a handbag brand something like that there'll be more the feature on the left so i think that's an interesting part of ai it's It's able to really show new ways of designing your product without you prompting about it.

9:25Amazing. It truly is impressive. Probably the most common challenge I hear from founders is related to building. Either they aren't technical and are searching for a technical co-founder, or they can code, but they're just spread too thin. This is one of the first major obstacles you're going to face, and I know how discouraging it can be. But there is a solution. Do you have a great idea, but you don't have a technical co-founder? Well, Crowdbotics can be your CTO as a service. Boom! Just like that. This means you can focus on building an awesome product and delighting your customers, rather than wasting your time on infrastructure planning, architecture compliance, and all that boring stuff.

10:03Crowdbotics also offers professional scoping to help you flesh out your project at the MVP stage and beyond. So cut off the hassle and get back to building that perfect product for your delighted customers. When you think Crowdbotics, I want you to think getting your time back to focus on product. Product drives everything in a startup. So let the folks at Crowdbotics show you how it works. Schedule a free scoping session and get your detailed build plan at crowdbotics.com slash twist. That's crowdbotics.com slash twist. How long have you been working on this? So we started the company in September 2022.

10:42it was me and my co-founder Helen and we've been working on this well since September 2022 and run more than 100 experiments but at the same time I've been working in AI for most of my career I was working on language model and language model research at Google and my co-founder was working at Facebook on consumer products but also led a team at Cruise in design so I think I think it's been brewing for a while, the idea of AI and design for both of us. But then the technology happened, LLM happened, diffusion model happened. And I think it created the perfect combo for creating that type of product.

11:25Yeah, it's pretty amazing how quickly this is moving. And so do you have users yet? Are you still in the laboratory building, essentially, this MVP? Are customers on the product yet? And then how do you make money? yeah so at the at the current point we we launched in february the we did the soft launch and we got a lot of people on the wait list and right now we're slowly letting people in so we're taking our time to make sure that we get the right feedback from people because if we let too many people at the same time you know we might get people that say i want e-commerce app other people that say i want food delivery and then we don't know how to focus prioritize the product so for now we're slowly letting people in and in terms of pricing what i've noticed with generative ai products is they tend to do a lot of they call it consumption based pricing which is you pay per generation which is kind of grouped as a subscription fee so we see doing something very similar where you would pay per generation and maybe per month you you get a certain amount of generations for free.

12:32Yeah. I mean, certain generations included in the price. How do you look at the sort of AI models? I'm assuming you're working with the chat GPT or OpenAI stack right now in Azure or something like that? Yeah. So the way I look at it is that we kind of change with the time a lot because every two months is basically a model that keeps getting better and better. So when we started the project in the product in September. We're working on a specific type of model. Then that someone releases a new model and we need to kind of bring our data to the new model. I think kind of every two to three months, we need to change the way we do things because the field is moving so fast.

13:16I think what's interesting is when I was working in NLP research at Google, there was maybe in 2018, a cool paper every three months that people would talk about. And now it's every week. So we need to make sure that we keep the pace and we're able to adapt to all the new models. And so the training data is whatever they trained it on, or are you making your own training data? Because there are specific websites, Dribbble, Behance, that have incredible collections. And I guess the question that will come up here is, hey, if you're coming up with a feature set and it's learning from the open web what other people's products are, how do those designers and UX folks get compensated?

13:59if the AI is now coming up with the answer? So have you given that thought? Yeah, that's a good question. I think the way we see it is in terms of the data, we don't use the raw data from Dribbble and trade a model on it. We created our own process to create that data set. I used to build data sets for Google Translate for languages that are kind of unknown or really rare languages. And we had to be really creative on how we create that data. so the the way we we generate that data for us it's it's all in-house we all do it ourselves and so we're not very concerned about i wouldn't say concerned but we don't fall into the maybe other problematic usage of ai where it uses directly the the other people's work as input because that's not what we do getty images is not your source material you could build up models of what apps look like based on your own knowledge of design etc so you can start making these definitions etc but you could also do a commercial relationship with dribble or behance or the artist on there and say would you like to contribute your designs and then link back to them and they could get traffic back so if i was using if i was a designer who had made beautiful i don't know e-commerce websites i might very much want you to feature some of my work in here yeah no that makes our sense and when you think about it that's that's how you know webs that's how templates work today in a way right where people sell a template on another platform and they take a cut out of it i think with generative ai the the interesting part is that i like to think that it generates completely novel things so i think the the hard part to solve is to say how much of the data was used to generate this versus is it something completely novel it's interpolated from you know just previous knowledge yeah this seems to be like a sort of interesting part of all this which is hey can we come up with new ideas and then where do these new ideas and then how does attribution happen um it and then there there are going to be ip questions i mean if it pulls you know who is who nobody owns the standard of a shopping cart a shopping cart is a generic device on the web but the execution of shopping carts there might be some copyright involved in there so you're going to have to be very thoughtful about that and then your your video went viral yeah and so you had over two million people watch that congratulations thank you and uh that's got a oh and i see you went to an accelerator previously yeah yes i went to south park commons i've never heard of that tell me about that accelerator how did you find out about it and what do they do there yeah so this accelerator basically is uh based in soma it was created by the former cto of dropbox and they have a big focus on ai and so that's a it's a great community where you will find people that are looking for the next step in their career towards entrepreneurship and you get to connect with people in the field of AI and they have a program called Founder Fellowship where they fund just a few startups.

17:15It's a very small cohort. I think my cohort had less than 10 people. And so a very focused program where they help companies find what they want to work on and what they want to build. Amazing. When you're the founder of a high-growth startup, things are chaotic pretty often, let's be honest. You face a ton of questions, you got problems that you don't always know the answer to, especially if it's your first startup. But you don't have to do this alone. That's where Hampton comes in. Hampton is a highly vetted private community exclusively for founders and CEOs. What's their mission? Founders mission is to create the most valuable and engaged community for high growth founders.

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18:49Joinhampton.com slash twist today. You must be drowning in venture capitalists chasing you since everybody's in AI right now. Tell me about what it's like to run a promising AI startup right now in Silicon Valley. It's super interesting. It's interesting because when I used to do language model in 2018, no one cared about it. I worked on Gboard, the Google keyboard on Android. And when I was explaining things to people, I think they were excited because of the product itself. But then when I went into the technologies, they're like, what do you mean language model? Okay. And now it's, what's really cool is that I think everyone is aware of a language model.

19:32So it makes the conversation way easier. I think if I was trying to do language model research as a startup three years ago, it would be really hard. But today, because people can see the benefits of using those type of algorithm, I think it's a super exciting opportunity. And I really see that things keep getting better and better and better. So that's even more exciting. It does seem like, uh, yeah, the world understands this now and it's gotten just a lot better, you know, guessing the next word in Gmail or a Google keyboard was, you know, delightful, but it didn't have a huge impact on people's lives, but certainly, you know, composing an entire email does have a big impact, uh, or, you know, filling out a whole box of code or making a ux it does seem like you're also on a collision course with a couple of groups of people uh somebody like figma or canva and adobe they're all going to be looking at this and saying hey how do we incorporate these features into our platforms whether canva for people doing more casual designs uh or figma for doing more you know rigorous designs uh and the same with adobe's suite of products so how do you look at being an ai first company i think where people just want to go to is they just want to publish these pages to the web and then eventually build a functional website so you got people who are building code you're building front end eventually this is all going to come together in one product is it not yeah that's that's that's what we have been thinking about a lot i think when it comes to in general competition i think was just at the very early stage of that new generative ai revolution the way i see it i think that software is going to dramatically change i think the what we see currently in in the products that people use every day it's going to change right I use ChatGPT every day for coding I wasn't before.

21:36So I think there's going to be, in general, AI-first companies are going to have that advantage of being able to start from the ground up with AI. And in terms of what we can deliver, again, I think it's also, there's a lot of interesting opportunities, like you said. Like if we generate the front end, then the world is your oyster. You can do whatever you want. I think our focus for us is really quality and speed. And I think once we get really a threshold of quality that is really high and that people are super excited to use our product for that reason, then we can think about, like you said, other type of opportunities.

22:12But for now, we're really focused on design and generating beautiful UIs. And specifically web design, app design, because there's a lot of design out there. You got people who are making illustrations, images, movies. Yeah, interface design in general, that's our niche right now. Yeah, that seems, and the ability for it to write the code correctly is critical. And so getting that right is super important as well for you? Yeah. Yeah, I think writing code is a very interesting, you know, I think it's super interesting to think about. And I think the tricky part is like, how do you get it inside a developer's workflow?

22:51I'm a developer myself and I think developer is a crowd, in terms of customer, developer is a crowd that have high standards, so you want to make sure that you cater to those high standards. Yeah, for sure. Alright, listen, this is incredible how far you've come in a short period of time. We'll be watching. I'm sure you're hiring right now or looking for beta customers. If somebody wanted to try the product, how do they sign up? And if somebody wanted to join your team, what type of people are you looking for and how might they contact you and apply. Yeah, so for the website, you can go on usegalito.ai and for hiring, we're hiring full stack and front-end engineers right now.

23:30So if people want to join the adventures are excited about Largely Grid Models, they can reach out to me on Twitter with at Arno AI. That's my Twitter handle or just send me an email Arno at usegalito.ai. Fantastic. And did it have to be, are you an in-person guy? I know you're... Yeah, I think for us we like people to be in person for a few days a week because we have a tight collaboration between ai and design and it's super important for people to collaborate and able to iterate on our product i agree with you i think that the teams that who are who are brave enough to you know go back to an office and have a couple people sit around a table are going to do better now i know some people have gotten used to working from home and there's benefits to it but the people who work remote will have one set of benefits might be you know they can put more time and have less commute times but the people who are in person a couple of days a week they're gonna i think they're gonna iterate a little faster on their product no i think it's just because it's very visual in general right it's like sharing a design on zoom and then you want to quickly iterate between the design and the code and everything it just makes things a bit easier because of the visual aspect of the product you know i i saw you had tweeted as well um about auto gpt a lot of people playing with it and having a lot of fun with it um it is early days maybe you could explain to the audience what auto gpt is and your position on it yeah uh i know i know a lot about language model and i think auto gpt is like 10 days old so take that with a grain of salt but so i think the auto gpt is a way for a language model to to do tasks autonomously they can decide you can just send them a high level task saying and book me an appointment to the hairdresser for example it's going to be able to interact with an environment and perform actions basically so it's kind of like a personal assistant but as an ai I think it's interesting I know I wrote a tweet about it and I think my take was that what happens when it fails and of course we can think about very dramatic failures but just simple failures right well there's a time change and it books the wrong appointments or it just goes on the wrong website or it just does something wrong so my take was we should figure out a way to maybe that auto GPT to do something and then the person can just approve that it was the right thing maybe the same way that if you have to send an important email to someone you would just double check and then send it so maybe that makes sense how those models will go i i am playing with it myself i got the plugins i connected zapier on chat gbd4 and i sent a hello world email the other day and i had the same exact premonition as you and i'm i'm playing with kayak and it's like do you want to book this and yeah i was like hmm yeah this can go really in the wrong direction and it's sort of like the early days of autopilot so on my first my second tesla uh it had autopilot uh keep you in the lane adaptive cruise control and you could do a lane change but it confirmed it with you so it asked you to actually move the stick uh to make the change and to look in the mirror now on my model y i have the latest update of full self-driving and it's like how aggressive do you want us to be in changing lanes just in terms of what kind of riding style do you want and it is bulletproof as bulletproof could be it's a thousand percent better than any human could ever be and it actually shows you the side view camera it shows you you know uh the simulation and so this idea of just monitoring the ai i think is a very uh worthwhile guardrail to put in place and a thoughtful thing to put in place.

27:27I think you're exactly correct. But the auto GPTs are going to be super powerful. Yeah. And I think sometimes also language is not the best way to express certain things. So imagine I'm going on an e-commerce website and I want to say, I want to buy a jacket between$85 and$90. It needs to be denim. I think, you know, typing that in natural language is not the best interface versus just clicking on buttons. I think the same way with AutoGPT, where if you only describe a task, maybe sometimes there's a limitation with language. Maybe you want to have different type of interfaces to talk with it.

28:04Yeah. All right, listen, this has been an amazing discussion. I wish you well. Any good French food recommendations in the San Francisco Bay Area? yes because i you know like a good steak frites mules frites uh escargot you got a you got a favorite place uh i think shea mamon is pretty nice in general they do good uh steak and fries uh so that's that's pretty nice mom on yeah shea mamon ah i gotta check that out yeah what's your favorite restaurant in san francisco um you know i have it's it's funny you mentioned this um i really love Japanese food. I just got back from Japan. I couldn't go for a couple years.

28:46They had it on lockdown. And there is a specific dish called katsu. You know, like it's a... Yeah, yeah. And so not everybody's into it. It's basically like a fried cutlet, right? And there is a place called Cafe Okinawa. Mmm. Okay. Like the island. And it is on Townsend Street. So it's near you if you're in Soma. and uh they make a sando a sando is short for sandwich and they use thick white bread so when i was in japan i got uh pork uh tonkatsu sandwich but then you know they put some you know nice uh cabbage with it or something like some shaved vegetables but you can dip it into curry sauce so when you have katsu and curry so they have this sandwich oh my god i'll take you for it at some point when i get on your cap table and i get a little slice of that put a little investment in there i slide a little 250k for my fund into galileo you and i can have a celebratory tonkatsu sandwich um but they have the katsu sandwich over there and it's mind-blowing and you know this is one of the great things about san francisco people can talk about the problems but the absolute creativity and the food scene is just in the even in the bay area you go to berkeley or you go to napa or you come down to san mateo area where we have a lot of great asian food and so every time i go to the city now i find myself going to cafe okinawa um and uh getting their chicken katsu they also there's another weird dish that they do in japan where they make fruit sandwiches oh again with this white bread so you know like wonder bread is like a really weird bread here in america yeah they have a better version of it in japan they make their like their own white bread and then this concept of a fruit sandwich i had when i was in japan for the first time they put like a whipped cream but not too sweet and then they put strawberries or i had one with mandarin oranges and so they have a strawberry one there so you literally imagine strawberries with a very like not too sweet whipped cream on white bread oh my lord you would think it's like a weird thing it tastes delicious uh so it's very good yeah and also San Francisco, I feel like lately had a lot of amazing AI events.

31:07I've noticed that there's been a lot of excitement around AI. And I think every week you meet a lot of interesting people in that space. So it's been kind of a, I think, kind of a rebirth of the city in that space as well. I hope so. I was there Monday and I had my accelerator. I had seven companies and we were at Fenwick and West's office. And then I went over to Wilson Sincini's office on the Embarcadero. And we had our founder university, which is like people just making MVPs that haven't even incorporated yet. and i had about a hundred founders there and people the energy level was really high but walking between the two places one in the fi die and one in the embarcadero i mean there was nobody there and i just remember pre-pandemic the amount of traffic in the city to get out of the city took 45 minutes just to get from like the fi die or embarcadero out of the city half an hour minimum and you just i drove got out of the city in six or seven minutes i mean i just zip it was like it was like it's the middle of the night so it's i think that sometimes that's the creative destruction that occurs where young people come into the city or like storefronts are cheap and somebody opens up like a little passion restaurant like cafe okinawa they also have a egg salad sandow that i'm going to try so i'm rooting for san francisco uh and i'm hoping some of the really great efforts like grow san francisco and uh stuff gary tan's doing and david sacks are doing uh some of it but listen i hope to meet you soon and uh hopefully at one of these AI events in San Francisco or the wider Bay area and maybe we'll go to Cafe Okinawa.

32:35Sounds good. Yeah, thanks for everything and thanks again for the shout out and inviting you to the podcast. Thank you. All right. Talk to you soon. Cheers. All right, everybody. Tom Davis is here. He's a senior director at Microsoft for startups. He's a former founder himself. Tom, Microsoft has a huge, huge cloud computing, supercomputer, Azure. Everybody knows about that. But you've started to run giant LLMs. Maybe talk a little bit about what it takes to run a giant LLM in the cloud. And this is a lot of iron, isn't it? Absolutely. And really, thanks to the partnership that we have with OpenAI, for the last few years, we've been spending a lot of time really building an AI-focused supercomputer.

33:16We went back and looked at everything, the GPU configurations, the networking, to really get it right, to be able to run these large language models and make them available for startups through the Azure service that we now have that you can get through Founders Hub. And so, yeah, it takes a lot of compute power, but we've managed to optimize that. We've spent a lot of time working with startups to help them optimize things as well over time. And as more and more innovations come into this, we will make them available to startups, not just OpenAI, but anyone just starting up a startup. We offer$150 ,000 worth of credits so startups can leverage that and really get going on their journey.

33:57The Founders Hub that Microsoft provides offers$150 ,000 in Azure Cloud credits, all the development tools like GitHub and Teams, Office, all that great stuff. You get all that for free. Five minutes to sign up, six figures in benefits, aka.ms slash This Week in Startups. Thanks so much, Tom. Hey there, my name is Scott and I'm a partner at a branding studio, Lunar. and today we're going to talk about how to design love products. Let's dive into it. So first, are you ready for a scary truth? And this is that 88 % of online consumers are less likely to return to a site after just one bad experience.

34:38So what does that mean for us looking at the positive side of design? Is that the ultimate goal of us to design well is to solve someone's problem in an enjoyable way. So just creating good, beautiful designs by themselves is just art. However, it should solve a business problem. And so let's dive back into why that matters a little more. First is that 73 % of mobile app users churn after just 90 days on average. And this is typically because it doesn't solve their problem for the long term. It was nice at first, but then it died off. Next is that first impressions are 94 % design related. So when someone comes to your site, you have about seven seconds for them to see if what they're looking for is right.

35:24And if it looks like it can be trusted. And then if they don't find what they're looking for, they'll bounce. And finally, 38 % of users will stop engaging if the website's content or layout is unattractive. Again, spoiler alert with this is that people do judge a book by its cover. So looking at how do we design products, you probably have seen this quote before from Reid Hoffman, which is, if you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product that you've launched too late. And that means that if you are building this beautiful design and you never launch, then that's probably not as important as just getting out the door and get real feedback from users.

36:02So with the goal that we've seen that design matters a ton, but also launching matters more, how do we do both? The way that we do that is what everybody's familiar with, which is starting with the MVP. So here, step one, we design a smaller focused piece. And this is something we can test and make sure that it's solving a real problem in an enjoyable way. And then from there, as we grow, then we can scale and improve as we go on. And that's where we can build out, hire more people, and then make the design like we actually want it to be. So I'm going to cover a three part framework for what I use for designing great user experiences and beautiful designs.

36:45And I've done this at large banks and I've done this at startups and the same process works for both. So step one is I always start with text-based requirements. And this is simply just what you see in the little thumbnail. If you can see that, which is just text saying, when I go to log in, here's what I expect should happen. When I go to upload a photo, here's what I expect should happen. And I usually stick to something like Notion or Google Docs for that. Next is that I go into rough wireframes. And this could be a mix of a couple of different layouts. This is something like sticky notes, whiteboards, or honestly just using a napkin sketch does the job.

37:27And then finally, we go into making polished designs. My favorite is Figma, but you can use a bunch of other tools to essentially create the pixel perfect designs that will be handed off to your development team. So let's dive into each. The first one, text based requirements. And again, this is how I start every single product. And I always do this with clients as well. So when we talk about that they want to release a new feature, I'll start with just text. And the the test that I use for this too, which I'll cover a little later is, can you explain this over the phone to someone? So if you say, hey, at this screen, it needs to do this.

38:05And again, it's more focused on the function side. So how I do that is I start with a summary statement, which is specific group of people have x problem, and it would be and they would be willing to pay y dollars to solve it by and then whatever your solution is. Again, this is a business problem that we're solving through design. Second part is I'd focus on the problem, I really want to make sure that I'm focused on solving a real problem, not creating a solution in search of a problem. And then finally, with this is I would focus on the personas. So who are these people that we're solving their problems for?

38:42And then next I'd move on to what is the home run for them? So they, they have a problem, but what would it actually be for them to have a solution that they want to tell somebody about? And then I go into the requirements. And this is what I mentioned earlier is that I go specifically down step by step up here's what I expected each stage. And with this, I'd speak to the function verse, this is how it should look. So if I say, hey, they should log in and then continue to the next step, I didn't specify that the buttons should be look like this, or the color should be this, none of that really matters at this stage, it's simply focused on function.