The state of modern answer engines, AI demos, and more! | E1924

0:00taylor swift overrated or icon undeniably talented but the best her music's market domination dramatic lacks diversity in themes shake it off a friedberg i mean it kind of attempted a joke right this is hot off the presses it was new and fresh wow um it did it in maybe five like couple of minutes not bad i mean it's pretty great when you think about it because it did the video the audio and the script is what you're saying yes so this is like the whole complete and it didn't do a full episode, but if it can do nine seconds, it'll be able to do 90 seconds next year and nine minutes the year after and then 90 minutes a year after that.

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1:37Go to equinixstartups.com to apply today. All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups. It's AI Tuesdays. We record on Monday. We ship it on Tuesday. thisweekinstartups.com slash AI or go to YouTube and just type in thisweekinstartups. Do me a favor, subscribe, put the subscription bell on so you see all of our great shows, a couple episodes a week. And the episodes that people are going crazy for right now are when I interview a founder, we go deep on that, or when AI demos are done by my pal, Sandeep Sanimadra, who is the GM of grok cloud you can go to console.grok.com console.groq.com that's the fastest and cheapest inference in the world according to everybody things are going well how many total devs you got there now sonny i think as of this morning 70 000 20 000 apps 20 000 apps with grok on it crazy it's a really really special we're very excited yes is it when you're doing inference does it cost people on average to do a returned query i know it depends is the answer that everybody gives but just generally speaking when people send a query up and they get a response back it's costing a penny four pennies fraction of a penny for an average input average output fraction so basically let me let me kind of give you the numbers top down we charge so our most popular model is Mixtro, which is a eight by seven, eight mixture of experts.

3:19We charge 27 cents input, 28 cents output. And on average, we get about 10 ,000 tokens of input. And we get, you know, small amount of output, one 10th of that. And so what are people doing is they take huge things and say, hey, summarize this for me. And it's like I said, it's 27 cents for a million in input token. So it's fractions of that. So like I'd say, if you take a million, divide it by 10 ,000, that's kind of what you're looking at, right? Or sorry, 10 ,000 divided by a million. That's what you're looking at in terms of costs. So fractions, fractions of a penny. So when we talk about the disruption that Google might face, and the increasing cost, are you part of the camp that we saw last year?

4:05I think Bill Gurley was saying, and brad gerson were saying a bunch of this like you cannot make google search work at scale yet because it would bankrupt the company they would be me they would be spending more per search than they were making yeah that's still true in 2025 um well it's it's moving down quickly so let me kind of give you a rough sense of where costs are at the best open source model right now is Mixtral. The cost to run that's about 27 cents per million tokens. Then if you look at GPT-4, it's$10 per million token input and$30 per million token output. So it's on the order of, you know, I'd say 50 times more expensive on the output and then 150 times more expensive, sorry, 50 on the input and 150 times more expensive on the output.

4:59So we've already seen the prices come down that much with open source. And I think that'll be the key. Smaller, more efficient models will be cost effective to do search. And, you know, we're going to see that today. We have a lot of search examples coming up. And it's a really good insight that you're kind of queuing up for us here. Yeah, you know, if you look at Google, um there was somebody who did a really nice analysis semi-analysis let me pull this up here really quick because it's important for our discussion i think to be honest about this and to track it so let me share my screen real quick here and i'll show you this and this is from february of 2023 this is well over a year old right now so if we look at this revenue per query currently google makes a penny and a half 0.0161 revenue from a query they took all the queries that they estimate that google does and they just divided their total revenue by it i guess and they say the cost per query is 0.0106 so they're making about 0.055 query queries per second 320 annual revenue 162 billion annual cost 107 billion operating income 55 billion and And then if you were to do this for ChatGPT, they say it would cost per query 50 % more.

6:22So even at the same amount of money, it would basically eat up massively Google's, crush Google's efficiency. So this is a year old. What are your thoughts? Yeah. So from that time already, you know, chat. So when that was launched, we didn't even have ChatGPT4 or GPT4. And so we've already seen GPT-3.5 come down 100x in price. I sort of am in the camp of, one, we should get Dylan to rerun that analysis with the latest open source pricing. I think that'd be a fun exercise. And I fundamentally believe that people are already taking advantage of that cost reduction that's happening. And, you know, if you look at something like perplexity, who we're going to talk about today, you know, they have 50 million active users already.

7:17That's scale now and they can run that. And I think that's pretty impressive from their standpoint. And I think fundamentally aligns to what we've seen with cost reductions happening in the inference space. so it's uh basically happening already thanks to the inference cost thanks to open source models and chat gpt of course has themselves reducing their costs or what they charge 90 right seems like they do that every year they cut out 90 of the cost yeah i think someone was saying there probably needs to be like a new moore's law because it's moving it's like you know moore's law was like doubling every 18 months this is like coming down 10x every 12 months you know it's really crazy yeah yeah uh it's just compression it's the the discount for using this hardware just is unbelievable and that means people will be able to do crazier and crazier offerings for free so if you remember the youtube moment before youtube or dropbox storing stuff on the web especially video large files was just an impossibility and big data was an achilles heel for most companies if they started storing a bunch of data they just had to start deleting their log files remember those discussions hey we gotta delete these log files because where we got to compress them put them in off-site storage we're never going to use them what are we going to do here with all this data and then of course cloud computing followed its own type of Moore's Law, although slower.

8:48And we saw the cost of storage go way down. So these things are happening in parallel. So somebody will be able to offer things for free that people were previously paying a lot of money for. I completely agree. And like, look, we've seen a lot of this throughout our eras. And like, sometimes you have to just remind yourself like how cheap storage got, right? And you know, you can buy like a 10 terabyte drive for like 100 bucks now. right it is truly you know um insane if you look at the cost of like hard drive storage it is nuts um it has just come down and down in cost it is nuts uh how much it costs average cost per gigabyte since 2017 let me share this this is backblaze which is like a backup service that is popular with some folks yeah here is storage backblaze average cost per gigabyte since 2017 and now they buy a lot of drives there and what you can see is the cost per gigabyte started in 2017 this is 2017 right i'm not going back to 1997 or anything here yeah it was at 32 cents and it's now in it hit 15 cents just in 2022 or so so it went down more than half in the last five years which is truly astonishing if you think about it yeah wow yeah i would love to get a longer yeah you can't even pray the arc is too big i mean i'm just on amazon looking at a 10 terabyte hard drive it's 200 bucks yeah it's nuts um just getting like some really uh that's 10 000 gigabytes jacal that's unbelievable 10 terabytes 195 that's just wild that's 10 000 gigabytes it's nuts i mean you have to divide this number by 10 000 to get the price per gigabyte what would be interesting to see over time also is like what's the hosted cost with electricity and everything just fully baked like a terabyte in the cloud what does it cost 10 terabytes in the cloud what does it cost the hard drive is now it seems one of the cheapest parts of this the physical hard drive now is so affordable my understanding is in a lot of these storage facilities when one of these drives goes bad they remotely turn it off but it's not worth the cost of going into the rack and taking it out so they just power it down and they just leave the dead thing they do they leave the carcass in there and they just do a sweep at some point right they probably and they're going to take the whole rack out and upgrade it from four terabyte drives to 10 terabyte drives, that's when they decommission it and they just don't even worry about it.

11:38That's what somebody who's in the rack space told me. Listen, a strong sales team can make all the difference for a B2B startup. But if you're going to hire sharks, you need to let them hunt and you can't slow them down with compliance hurdles like SOC 2. What is SOC 2? Well, any company that stores customer data in the cloud needs to be SOC 2 compliant. If you don't have your SOC 2 tight, your sales team can't close major deals. It's that simple. But thankfully, Vanta makes it really easy to get and renew your SOC 2 compliance. On average, Vanta customers are compliant in just two to four weeks.

12:10Without Vanta, it takes three to five months. Vanta can save you hundreds of hours of work and up to 85 % on compliance costs. And Vanta does more than just SOC 2. They also automate up to 90 % compliance for GDPR, HIPAA, and more. So here's your call to action stop slowing your sales team down and use vanta get a thousand dollars off at vanta.com slash twist that's vanta.com slash twist for one thousand dollars off your sock too so let's get started let's do some demos all right okay so what we're going to start with actually is just a little level set on where things are at because we had a we had a shift in moment last week And so this LMSYS chatbot arena leaderboard is generally considered the gold standard for chatbot experiences.

12:59So, you know, for your individual use cases, different models are merging. But why I wanted to highlight this was last week, Claude 3 Opus by Anthropic passed over ChatGPT for 11.06 preview and 0.125 preview. This is a big moment. And so we've seen it pass and we've seen it kind of come in up top with the score of 12.55. And so if you go to Hugging Face, which is a hosting company for different open source models, they host these leaderboards. These leaderboards will test LLMs, large language models, against certain tests. and this is the chatbot arena and this is where they test human preferences to rank llms and they use the yellow ranking system if you've heard of that before that's the one that's used for chess basically you're taking competitors and if you can beat somebody with a higher score than you your score goes up if you lose to somebody who's better than you their score goes up dramatically or if you lose to somebody who you're better than their score goes up dramatically yours goes up minor you know like it's all those kind of concepts you can look up ell ratings or rankings and so they test these things and yeah so parity is here that's for sure the thing that's interesting here is the first like 10 are proprietary models proprietary models are still winning the day and then if you scroll down you start to see some open source ones from alibaba yeah cohere's model yeah if you scroll down even more then all of a sudden you start to see a ton of them uh mistral etc llama and other this is a fine tune of llama too so you're starting to see like different ones but you know it's really interesting what we're starting to see happen here yeah so what do you take from the fact that the top rankings you know the 1100s or more are still primarily proprietary models what does that tell you well i kind of see two or three different things in here um from from my perspective one what this is showing us is these folks are training with data sets that are above and beyond what's available in in the public domain and that's what's making them better now that could be um things that they've licensed it could be um synthetically created data we don't know two what it also means is they may have more humans involved in the loop to improve the experience with humans so more reinforcement learning with human feedback right and so people who know claude is uh anthropics model So the company Anthropic, you keep reading about that Amazon just did their second investment launch, their second tranche of an investment that is the makers of Claude.

16:07And you can share it at Claude.ai. What this is saying, to be clear, is people like Claude for as a chat bot and it scores head to head with other services higher based on this ELO ranking. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And so, you know, what it also means is that, and the last thing I'd say is no one has a defense, no one has a lead that's insurmountable. Yes. That's the most important takeaway, perhaps here. Okay, so let's keep going. Let's do some demos. All right. Let's do some demos. Okay. So what we're going to do today is we are going to actually dive into it. J. Cole, you have like a really, I don't know if like, because I don't think you even read some of these notes coming in.

16:55So I'm really blown away by how you have the, you have this like knack to pull this off. But what we're going to do today is the segues. Well, it's not even the segues because we were talking about this as we were leading into this. So what we're going to do, what we're going to talk about today is we're going to do kind of three examples of let's call it modern answer engines. And so the first is you.com. Are you familiar with this? Yes. You.com is, you know, making a chat GPT Google like competitor. Yes. And so the query that I've been using with these folks is, what is the chance the Warriors making the playoffs?

17:35Right. And what's interesting is, you know, one, we can see here, obviously, it comes up with an answer and it pulls some different data sets. And I think these folks are doing a really interesting job. Clean UI. They come up with an answer. They provide the references and where they got these things from. right so they do citations the first citation comes from the mercury news or the local paper in the bag area local paper and it says warriors uh gives the warriors a 48.6 chance of reaching the playoffs most likely through the play-in tournament um yeah and the ringer gives the warriors a 92 chance of making the play in tournament and a 26 chance of making the playoffs in other words not having to do the play-in tournament being succeeded or above So the question is, are these accurate or where did these come from?

18:24These could be before the season even started, let alone with 10 games left in the season when we're taping this. Yeah. And so, you know, they allow you to kind of click out and you can go see where this came from. And this article you can see here is from a couple months ago now, right? So maybe not the best shot, right? Right. And so, look, I really like what these folks are doing, but I have an overall theme here. You know, the next is we'll go to perplexity. And one thing I want you to really notice here is that, like, they're kind of which I'm going to call this out on purpose because I think it's interesting.

18:59What these answer engines are doing is they're having to use someone's search behind the scenes because, you know, they haven't gone and built their own search index. They're not doing the crawl of the web. So they're either doing a Google search. Maybe they're using Brave has a search API out right now. That's really good. Exactly. Open crawl is no good. That's all that's just done every month or so. So that's not a live search engine. Yahoo no longer has search monkey. Bing, I think has a search API. So I think the only two search API choices now are Brave and Bing. I don't think Google has a search API.

19:37No, Google does. There's a bunch of companies that are doing it off the Google one as well. So that's what's kind of interesting here. And then sort of, you know, what I wanted to talk about here is, you know, I built this. Make sure we, you know, we blew it. So it is what are the chances of the Warriors making the playoffs. So this is something that I built. and what and what it does is you can kind of go here and you can look underneath the hood i use actually serp api and what mine did was it did a search it got this back from the drafting sports book right and basically it gave us that as the final answer here and so really what you know we want to talk about here a little bit jay count i want you to chime in because of your experience with Mahalo.

20:32Yeah. What these folks are trying to do is use a search API. You already named what they are. And then they're trying to take into account, I guess, the temporal nature of the question and other aspects, you know, create an experience. And what we just started with, with the cost of what's happening with these LLMs, what advice would you give these folks that are building these things in terms of really creating the next generation experience? Because I feel like they're on the path, but there's now a bigger opportunity than where they're at. I would say that how you get to the answer is super important because anybody can copy the presentation layer.

21:13And so this presentation layer is not trademarkable or copyrightable. So if it turns out that the best way to give an answer is to write it in a chat format with bullet points and citations, and then put some photos or video links, which we used to call comprehensive search, not just 10 blue links, but you would include image search, video search, message board search, etc. All of those little innovations are probably not enough to get people to switch from Google. It's really hard to get people to switch off Google. So I think, yeah, the format matters, you know, the presentation layer. So how they're presenting it, I think, will appeal to some people more than a Google search result.

21:56Getting people to change their behavior is extremely hard. It has to be 10 times better in order for people to change their behavior. So what you have to ask yourself here is, is this interface that we've seen here, where it gives citations and it writes it in a narrative, is that actually 10 times better than Google search? If it's not 10 times better, I don't think people switch. And so these become, you know i don't want to say roadkill but essentially it's not enough for people to switch their usage now one percentage point of search used to be worth a billion dollars in market cap i don't know what it's worth now because you take google's market cap and then take out stuff like youtube it's you know one point of market cap might be 10 billion now right there might it might be a trillion dollar market so i'm going to pull up two things here this is my google that doesn't have access to the latest and like this it's the same exact question yeah this is terrible like google has fallen really far behind so where did you get that answer at the top from that looks like it was taken from somewhere well it's right here right about featured snippets what people need to understand about snippets is google will pull data and format it used to be called one box now it's called snippets from somebody's website this is very controversial thing um but nobody really stands up to google about it but as you can see they've intercepted you from going to that source so the question is you know will that source allow that to happen over time i don't know the answer to that question yeah yeah but what what i'm really struggling with jcal i'm just going back here is that like between the startups and between google google is really falling behind here because whether i'm here and i asked the question about what are the warriors chance of making the playoffs and i get a bunch of references and some maybe out of date or if i'm over at perplexity which does a better job of pulling in and you're showing me the dates from different um yeah here in the most recent one they understood that they should put the date which is a presentation level thing just whatever the article says the publication date was show it so that's a smart thing when they're doing references they said always include the date the date here says the first one is march 5th they have a 42 percent chance of making it on march 26 basketball reference said a 26 chance of making the playoffs now and then you also have the the definition if we talk about the playoffs or the play-in right so that's like a very odd unique thing the play-in tournament gets you the last two slots in the playoffs so yeah this is like one of those searches as a you you picked a really good search because getting the proper answer is hard so yeah you might argue that you know perplexity and you.com presenting it or chat jpt with bing support or bings doing it would be a better experience for this query um you know like and this is a really unique query because the data changes every day and you know there's not a live there's not a live data feed now if you said what's the stock price you know of tesla or what's the stock price of microsoft google is going to nail that i don't know if these services are going to actually do very well on that if you ask it you know hey what's the what's the price of tesla stock right now let's see yeah so i just declawed and i don't have the top version and it's not giving me anything it says of course i don't have access to live stock data so they haven't even put a live stock data feed into some of the stuff yet what does it do when you ask those two i'm actually i just asked perplexity so let's pull it up um and i think they've done a good job with these live resources so it says 173.81 and if i start putting a citation on it that means it's not taking it from a data feed it's taking it from no that that's accurate that's it's 173.76 so that's accurate yeah chat gpt4 i asked it what is the stock price of tesla and current stock price of tesla is 173.32 so interesting i guess some of them are now pulling in live data feeds yeah the issue is there's no live data feed of odds for sports books, essentially, I think.

26:21Well, this is where I wanted to kind of keep building on this. What these different services can do is use LLMs to parse that because these odds exist at any given time on different sites, whether it's DraftKings or Take Your Pick. And the power of these kind of modern answer engines is that they can look at that entire page and get your answer out of it. And I think that's what's really, really powerful. And what blew me away and why I wanted to do these series of demos is when you ask these very specific questions, it does feel like Google has fallen way behind. I'm not sure. What these services do is they summarize the pages that the first five pages that come up in Google.

27:03Google can add that. I think it's going to become a copyright issue. I think that's probably why Google hasn't done it at scale. I think summarizing the articles, the way this is being done without permission, is a jump ball as to whether people feel good about it or not. But doesn't this go back to our conversation from last week where you said as long as they put a snippet and then link out and send you back there? Yeah. So I think I wouldn't have a problem as a content creator with one sentence being in there or two sentences and then clicking it. If it's the entire article, I think that's where we're going to have questions.

27:36so here you know if you summarize the entire new york times story i think the new york times would feel bad about it if you summarize and make it two sentences or three sentences would they reasonably be upset about it would that be fair use it'd be a negotiation and so you know the the question is will these actually drive people to those sources and when you press that source when you press that number does it take you directly to the source yeah it opens another of wind orientation there. So they'll make some minimal amount of advertising here. But I think what we'll see is these folks will ask for maybe some compensation if you use their data over time.

28:13Interesting. So where do you rank these with respect to Google? Because for me, they're doing a much better job than what Google is doing right now. It's going to depend on the query. If I'm doing a flight query or the price of something, a stock price, or I'm just trying to get to a specific news story that I know, like there's a new story that I want to read, I probably would not experience much of a difference between ChatGPT and Google. If I wanted a summary of, hey, what are the best restaurants in Austin? Or what's the best barbecue? I do wonder if the Yelp search result, the Google search result, or one of these new ones would be a better experience for me.

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30:27Oh, yeah. No, I did that for a while. I did that last year. I made my default screen, but I will make my default search. Which one should I make my default search for a week? I think maybe like perplexity. To me, I think, look, they're very similar. So I would give them the same grade between you.com and perplexity right now. Yeah, I give them a B. I give them both a B. I think it's like it could be better. Where's the room for upside for them? Because I'm a bit higher. What can they do on upside? I think it has to be correct data. And so I think, you know, I don't trust it. I think it was very misleading, the first one you showed, because it didn't have the dates of the stories.

31:09So I think their summarizing there was quite wrong. Because they presented, you know, four different sources with four different pieces of information. But they didn't say, as of this date, this is the chances as of this date. So perplexity seemed to actually get that nuance. So I give perplexity a B plus. I give the other one a C plus. I'll give you a C plus for this query. So you didn't like that they didn't put what these were and what you like. Well, I just don't think it's the correct answer. I think they're kind of leading you down the wrong road. They're actually confusing this. They're potentially confusing the situation.

31:40And again, you picked a really wonderful query because it's a confusing query. It's kind of like the query of like, how much does it cost for a flight between these two locations? It's like, it depends. It depends on what time you want to go. It depends on if you're in business class or first class. It depends on if you want to travel, you know, at Monday morning at 6 a.m. or you want to go in the middle of the day. Like, all of these factors come into play. And I think that this is where, you know, these language models could ultimately have a massive advantage is that they might actually think about the second and third search and kind of pull that in.

32:11And so, if you say, hey, what does it cost to do a flight? This is a good one to try. um how much is a business class flight between san francisco and dubai you know and this is like really getting the right price on this that's one that takes a little bit of work right because you have all those sub questions which airline what days where i was going to go with this with you let's see what result you get But Jason, what is your, like, if you were trying to look at Warriors odds to get the playoffs, because we want them to get in, you know, we want to see our boy Draymond just, you know, have another shot at it.

32:51We know once they're in there, everything changes. Yeah. What is your process? Because, again, I keep coming back to Mahalo. Like, you've thought about this before. So what, and obviously it's changed, but what is your J. Cal algorithm for figuring out what the best odds are right now? What would you do? yeah i would just take odds of making the nba playoffs i wouldn't put the warriors in there and then i would try to find a website that had the the playoff you know and the odds there so if you just type odds of making the nba playoffs into google it'll take you to playoffstatus.com and sports betting time so those two is the one who they did the one box off by the way yeah so playoff status seems to be the the best uh result and yeah that's what i would do i would try to find a website that had those you think it's the best result or they paid for that we don't know hmm uh no you don't pay to be in one box one box you can't pay to be in so that's like you have to earn that editorially i think because this is a single page with a nicely formatted table that's why this one wins this is why that one wins the google seo reach you know having a domain name that answers the question like their domain name uh playoffstatus.com answers the question you know it's like they took the time to get that domain name therefore and it's a single purpose when you go to the home page it just gives you the exact probability which is wild when you think about it i mean it's also wild that my knicks are ahead of the warriors are in the eastern conference uh yeah we were like 10 not bad two percent chance of champions five percent chance of the finals 16 conference champions round two 52 round one 99 yeah we know we're going to make the finals well your boy jalen brunson's got to stop trying to get his stats and get wins instead oh come on now no he only we we have three starters out right now so when we have two or three starters out it's really hard for us to we have three starters out it's the fact that we're still in it um so that's what i would have done i i do think these things have great potential so um i think in another year or two this will be a very interesting conversation and can you change people's habits do people just like getting the 10 blue links the one box you know and then this perplexities app and you know is it too much information people like the process of just you know being transported to another website or getting a quick answer in the one box i think you're i think you're boomerang yourself here jacal i think people just might be yeah i think people just want the answer and oh no i definitely think people just want the answer i'll agree with that the question is is that answer correct is i think the key issue and is summarizing a bunch of web pages yeah you know the best way to get the correct answer you know i don't know that it is i think going to data sources is going to be the way to get the correct the correct answer and that's where data source relationships are so important having a lot of sports wars whether getting all those data sources together is going to be and having a licensing arrangement with them would be really great one more double click though jay cal when i when we look at that what you're just talking about the the playoff status.com yeah are they pulling those in from other sources or is this just because i find that really interesting or versus Because, you know, DraftKings or something like that, any of the sports makers, like, you know, odds makers, like Vegas, they really nail it over kind of the mathematical chances.

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37:39And it seems like they're posting articles. So again, is it data or is it an article is a key piece of this? Yes. And so, you know, are you, and it's pulling together. It's interesting. This website is pulling SPSportsBettingDime.com is pulling odds from other sports books. So they're intercepting traffic, I think, and their ads are all sports books. so you know that game of seoing and intercepting traffic for data and then clicking through to get an ad like i think that whole game could be coming to an end yeah and those ads by the way are served up by google so when you start thinking about what's really happening here google has had an incentive to keep things inefficient i'll explain this here on an seo basis if you're not looking this is an article from march 26th it's april 1st when we're recording this so this is an old article but it came up as like number two in the google search rankings so pretty good job of google to find this article but this website is not the sports book itself to the best of my knowledge what it does is it's pulling together a bunch of data making charts etc and it says odds of march 26 at bet 365 365 odds makers proper odds makers so they have ranked above that group because they don't have to do all the work that bet 365 has to do of running a sports book all they have to do is seo and make a page that's better than sports books to intercept them in google search and sure enough when you scroll through this what do you see here's an unlabeled ad but this ad literally has no label on it but it says get promo and you can see and by the way that's against the law to do that technically to have an ad without like an ad label but i guess it's a partnership maybe it's in their terms of service somewhere and then odds of march 26 and then you have five offers here caesars bet mgm sports tool again these are not exactly labeled they say claim offer so maybe you could argue that that's an offer but um you know they're they're that's the real interesting thing that's going to go away this whole race on the web of seo to try to beat other people out to then put ads on your page that was google's favorite thing to do if it was inefficient you clicked on a couple of ads either on the destination page or on their page.

40:07If you give an answer, you don't need to click on an ad. So that is the, you know, that's the fundamental existential issue. That is correct to think about with Google, if you just got the answer, do you need to click on stuff? Maybe? Maybe not, you know, if I did a search for these odds in a chat GPT format, actually would look good to have the offers on the bottom. So they know I might be interested in those offers. So those offers would work just as well. And so So actually, in a way, what Perplexity and u.com are doing is what this SEO person is doing. Yeah. They're creating a page. They're just, exactly.

40:44They're creating a page to intercept traffic. But they can do it more dynamically because they're using their knowledge of AI models and all that. And they have all of the content they've scraped from these other sites. So everything's eating its tail. Well, they didn't scrape anything. Let's be careful. I don't think they're scraping anything. They're doing it all real time because when you do it, they're looking at the results that come back and their engine is going through those results. Yeah. And summarizing them. So, yeah. Now, if you ran that software on your computer, the summarizing software, there's nothing illegal about that, by the way.

41:16Yeah. But if I build an advertising business based on that, maybe there is something illegal about that. Oh, that's interesting. So, you're saying if I could download a plugin that would run a model locally, I'm allowed to do that. Yeah. What you do with content on your machine is your business. um so it's when you take if you downloaded all the star wars films and all if you download if you had all the marvel films that you paid for and you started editing them on your computer and making your own versions and videos there's nothing illegal about that you can do a remix whatever you want it's when you republish it and you put it into commerce in the world so and try to monetize it yeah yeah an interesting thing to do would be eventually we all have an index of the entire web on our laptops like it sounds crazy to build this idea yeah but it could be done um and it could be a very powerful service if you think about it like if i took the entire wikipedia had it stored local if i had all the youtube channels i subscribed to i downloaded all those videos which i think technically would be against their terms of service but whatever if the transcripts of them like you could start to build this like local llm that might be resistant to legal issues or more resilient it's like a saving you know if you want to print something from the new york times they can't stop you right um yeah and if you want to save it to your local computer they can't stop you nor do they try remember there was a time when you would like go to print something or save a pdf and they would kind of put some roadblocks on it yeah you know or you remember there are some websites you would highlight some text you go to copy like you can't do that share it using this feature yeah exactly yeah and that kind of eventually went away and now what people do is you hit file print it shows you a pdf you hit save on the pdf and you send the pdf to somebody you know if it's like a behind the paywall story that's what you see people doing in the back channel so i think this is a really interesting discussion um i i do think the chat interface will be the winning interface i think the talking interface will ultimately be the winning interface and you're still you're at you're at b for perplexity and c for for you okay yeah i think that these things have the ways to go i you know before i change what i'm doing but i think the voice interface is going to be the winning one having it in your ears your airpods you know your google pixel buds whatever well one more thing i just want to close out on that one jake how is next i just saw this in the news so next week meta is adding ai to those smart glasses sure why not so this is kind of going in the direction what you're saying so it can identify things and so you can basically sit there and do that so i think that's pretty interesting so well what's interesting about that is that's going to chip away at searches so google searches has you know continued to grow over time but apps like yelp you know or airbnb or other ways which they bought but you know other searches got picked off by apps or other browsers like brave that has its own search engine.

44:12What this says to me is one of my searches there in check GPT was I took a picture of a vintage car to see what kind of car it was at a stoplight. And it gave me the right answer. And so these things are going to do that. So when you take out your phone to go do a search and say, what is this? Or how many calories is this? Or what is this fruit? Or tell me, you know, my directions, these things could conceivably give you good answers. It's almost like meta is going to be getting into the search game. Everybody's going to be in the search game. Actually, that's the conclusion I come to. Everybody's going to be in the search game.

44:45Everybody's going to be chipping away at Google search. It'll be built into 20 different products, 200 different products, and you'll get answers in other places. I give both the previous folks a score. I really like what they've done and they've changed my behavior and I'm using it more so. So I give them both A minuses. And for me, what I want the ability to do is customize my search algorithm. If they gave me that, where I can say, I want you to, you know, you can do some things in chat GPT, like tell it to always respond with tables and stuff like that. I want the ability to do that. And if I could get that, oh man, that would be really good.