Zapier Co-Founder Mike Knoop on category creation, API evolution & AI architecture | E1769

0:00There's really not that many great local Italian places. Oh, there is a good pizza joint called Centro Pizza on Broadway. Okay. So, you know Broadway and Burlingame? There's like the street and there's the Great Street. Yep. Broadway has a place called Centro Pizza and they make brick oven pizza and it's amazing. It's the best pizza in the peninsula I've found. Centro. Does it good? Yeah. It's pretty great. Okay. There's your cold open, everybody. This Week in Startups is brought to you by Embroker's Startup Insurance Program helps startups secure the most important types of insurance at a lower cost and with less hassle.

0:39Save up to 20 % off of traditional insurance today at Embroker.com slash twist. While you're there, get an extra 10 % off using offer code twist. Lemon.io Need to speed up your product development without draining your budget? hire vetted engineers from europe at lemon.io go to lemon.io slash twist to get 15 off for the first four weeks and eight sleep good sleep is the ultimate game changer now you can add the pod cover to any mattress go to eight sleep.com slash twist to check out the pod cover and get 150 off at checkout all right everybody welcome back to this week in startups my guest today is mike anoop he's the co-founder president and head of labs at zapier if you don't know zapier i'm about to make you happier zapier is an amazing tool i discovered god it's close to a decade ago that helped me do really interesting automations between google docs my email you know basic stuff if somebody signs up for my newsletter put them into this google this uh google sheet if it's somebody's in this google sheet pipe it into my slack room when somebody signs up for launch fund four as an lp and i've been doing these automations over the years uh and i train everybody on my team to learn how to use zapier notion coda the google docs suite um and zapier and all these products because you can automate so many tasks your partner and your co-founder wade's been on the pod i think twice in the past uh but mike is this your first time on the pod i think so yes uh first time thanks for having me well i just wanted to say also congrats i i mean when people saw zapier and i guess your contemporary if this then that was a there was like a couple of companies trying to do this and everybody was like yeah that's a niche business it is not a niche business explain to everybody when you started the company then we'll get into all this ai stuff which is why i wanted to have you on because ai changes everything with what you're doing and we're going to do a bunch of interesting demos and talk about how startups and everybody can be using ai and zapier to plug everything together but when did you when did the company start and then when did you realize that you were onto something big and then what's the footprint of the company now because i hear all kinds of numbers like somebody told me you're making over 100 million in revenue i don't know if that's true but where's the company at today and where did you start yeah Yeah.

3:15Well, I think it surprised me as well, in terms of how big the business could get. When we started it, Brian Wade and my two co-founders, and we got started back in Columbia, Missouri, a small college town at the University of Missouri. We got started at Startup Weekend. So that's what brought the three of us together. And we were all working with APIs in our day jobs and side jobs. I was one of the early moderators and big users of the Facebook API when it came out in 2009, 2010. So you're all using these APIs in contract work, and we're just doing the same things over and over again with them.

3:48And I think Brian was the one who pitched the idea at Startup Weekend. And the idea was like, hey, there's this huge wave of APIs. They're really cool. Wouldn't it be even cooler, though, if more people could actually use them? Because they still have a very technical bench to be able to take advantage of them. And that was the thesis. And as you started looking online, and if you go online and search around for using these APIs, or more commonly, you'd search for how do I connect these two services together. All you would find on the internet back in the 2010, 2011, 2012 era was basically developer documentation.

4:22You'd find a Stack Overflow link of like, oh, yeah, great. Here's a bunch of code you can use to connect Salesforce with Gmail, for example. Or HiRise with Basecamp or something. Popular tools back in the day. HiRise and Basecamp. Yeah. Yeah, really old school there. You do that same search today and like the sort of landscape of the results, it's totally different. But that was sort of the sort of landscape that it looked like back then. And I think our observation was, okay, well, you see all these forums where folks are almost begging the vendors for integrations. You'd go to say the high rise forums and just see these forum threads with like hundreds of their users begging for like, hey, can you add this like random XYZ integration?

5:00And it never really made sense to them that may add more than one, two, three, or four, the top requested ones, just because the long tail, it's a bit of an N-squared problem. Every new app that gets added, there's an integration that wants to get integrated with it. And we realized, well, okay, we're probably never gonna capture the direct native integration experience. The vendors are gonna build those directly themselves, but we can provide this ubiquitous platform. Maybe we can get 5%, 10 % of all of the integration markets out there because we'll be able to service a set of users that just the vendors themselves or never we're going to be willing to service.

5:33That was the original thesis that like, hey, this could be more than just like a small niche SaaS company. Over the first few years, we got started building. I think one of the things that really changed my perspective of what the business was, because I always thought for a long time, I was actually not a personal user of Zapier for the first couple years. I was building for our customers. And I always sort of saw it as boring productivity software. and that was like that's how i viewed the software you know it's cool great business like boring boring b2b software and what sort of started to change my mind about it was several years in we started going to a lot of these like conferences with our users and with partners and we started having a lot of people coming up to us and like sort of like shouting our name like shouting giving us huge high fives and just being so effusive like thankful there was like passion from the user base yeah it was weird that was palatable right of the business what when you double clicked on that because this is really the key you had what um we call in the industry market pull not only were people were looking for this product and this is beyond product market fit you had people searching the internet how do i integrate these two things how do i create some glue how do i solve this problem and then they're so delighted they would scream your name at a conference at you yeah yeah they'd see the big orange t-shirt and like that would they'd run up to us and like this is a great feeling yeah and what what it really was was like these these these users were not and certainly the software can be used this way they were not using the software for pure like optimization time optimization use cases not to like hey save me five minutes a week or save me an hour a week these users were like doing something that was like transformational for themselves or for their team or for their business it was like It was almost like a skill in mind.

7:22Like, hey, I thought I couldn't do this. And because Zapier existed, I was able to do it. So you think of a solopreneur or a one or two small person business that thinks like, hey, it's out of reach for me able to build a business. And because I actually have access to these tools, I can build an inbound lead generation through a Google form and a lead scoring mechanism and an outbound email thing with MailChimp. I can actually do it now. Maybe I was budget constrained to be able to hire a developer and I didn't have the skills or the time to go learn how to be an engineer to stitch together all these tools myself.

7:53So it'll knock a lot of focus, I think, to be able to do things with software that just previously fell out of reach. And I think that feeling was what drove the drove the passion and i don't know it got me way more excited about really trying to grow the business as much as we could yeah and the company's now worth five billion yada yada you've raised a ton of money you've got how many customers how many employees ballpark several hundred thousand paying customers over 10 million folks have checked out and tried zapier over the last decade we've been around quite a while at this point um over 5 000 apps at this point and you've blown past 100 million in revenue that that rumor's true the last number we shared was like 150 million wow that's just mind-blowing it it took a decade or just over i guess right you're kind of on your 10 year past your 10 year anniversary yep um but it really took if you look at that 10 year plus journey at what point did you have that inflection point where hey this is really uh starting to ramp up because i think some people get discouraged during those first couple of years when maybe you have light product market fit and like you said you didn't think it was a big deal.

8:58If you could pinpoint that moment when you said, hey, you went to the conference, people start yelling out your name, they see the orange shirt. What moment in time was that? And then when did the business actually start to crank and make revenue? Yeah, I think 2014 probably was around the year where we started just to get enough recognition in the market from users and customers and partners to get that passion and hear the excitement. That was also the year that we got profitable. So one of the other unusual things about our businesses we've raised very little venture capital only a million dollars back in 2012 once the balance sheet um since then we basically run the business on cash uh from customers um so then any of those fundraising you've done is just secondary or something since then yeah yeah we we've sort of offered we wanted to um offer an equity program for everyone in the organization a couple years ago so yeah we went out to the market to get a we've never raised monies we didn't know the share price it's actually worth so we went out and actually got a share price and said okay now we're going to start we can build our compensation models around that and actually offer that to everyone now going forward in the organization and um i remember salesforce ventures was one of the early investors obviously went to y combinator another great hit by yc um and then you uh just set up a secondary plan for your employees how do you uh everybody has a lot of questions about that um how do you look at executing it um you know this employee stock option plan equitably fairly keep people motivated yada yada Did you have a process there?

10:25Yeah. There was definitely a history too. It's pretty interesting for us. So when we first started the business, we were 3 dudes from Missouri. So we really had more of that, I guess, ethos and how we ran the business, which was like, you sell products, you make money, you scale the business based on the money you make. We just didn't have the Silicon Valley raise$100 million. That wasn't our default operating model coming into the business. And because we were able to get profitable really early, one of the things we thought to do, we actually did offer equity to early employees. We went through YC, so we got the traditional startup advice, like, oh, we'll set up an option pool and offer equity.

11:00So we did. And the reality of all those early employees, because we were hiring out of our networks when we've been remote since 2012 as well, we were hiring out of the Midwest. We're hiring internationally in Europe. And none of those early folks really valued the equity. No, they've never seen anybody make money off equity. In fact, they've seen people get lied to with equity in some of those places that would ever be worth something. So they just are like, hey, give me cash. And if you want to give me a little extra cash. We switched. We switched to profit sharing really early on. Probably.

11:30It was probably around 2014 when we got profitable. I think when we sort of switched over that model and said, you know, this is what our sort of teams are telling us they want. Our employees are telling us they want. So like, let's let's talk about that instead. And it was way less overhead, too, for offering it because it's, you know, we had a global sort of employee base. just like the logistics of offering, perhaps sharing work were a lot simpler. So we actually built that model for a really long time. And up until closer to 2019, going into 2020, where Zapier wasn't a lottery card anymore, like it was in the early days.

11:59Like, okay, we built a real business, north of 100 million recurring revenue. This is not something that's gonna go away. So we said, all right, we wanna start offering equity for everybody and give everyone a chance to participate in the upside of the business at that point. um that's where we kind of kicked off the logistics to like okay let's actually go try to figure out how we're going to create a secondary market can we get a share price for this asset figure out what it's worth build that into our sort of our compensation models so now we still do have like a bonus program that looks more traditional like we kind of pivoted our profiteering into more of a bonus program um but we added in the sort of mailchimp famously you know did this so we we call companies like this internally at our firm alicorns you know know it's like a unicorn and a pegasus and my joke was they fly over traditional funding rounds com.com we invested in that company when it was like a four and a half million dollar company and nobody would invest in it 40 vc said no we said yes and then alex and michael came to me they're like oh we're raising a little bit of money and doing a little secondary you cool with that i'm like yeah whatever and they're like yeah it's at 250 million and then i think the next round after that was 1.x billion and they didn't need the money like you they just did it off money and 37 signals was similar um what's the uh oh survey monkey was another silver so survey monkey and mailchimp both did it this way it is possible um you raised under 2 million and you got to over 150 million in revenue just let that sink in that is the definition of and i'm not like dogmatic about not raising money um no you know i tend to like zapier's done some weird stuff right we got profitably.

13:33We've been a remote company since the very beginning of the business back in 2012. I like to think of Zapier a bit of as an existence proof of alternative ways to grow and scale companies. Now, I'll also be clear. I think a lot of those things got pulled out of us rather than us expressing them intentionally or proactively. Like, hey, we found a niche in the market that was underserved and we were able to actually do this thing. One of the things I think that's under-realized about Zapier is... I actually think it's one of its fundamental innovations is a bit of a business model innovation more than anything else.

14:05Explain the business model, yeah. Well, so like in the 90s and 2000s, like integration is a thing. Like APIs existed, you just had to... Yeah, middleware. Microsoft BizTalk, if you remember. Yeah. That tech, that product. But it just like costed millions of dollars to have like huge fleets of integrators, basically custom engineers and IT to come into your organization and like stitch all this software up together. And our sort of, I think, innovation was, hey, we found a way to actually deliver the software in a usable fashion. And we found a way to reach customers through search, which cost us$0.

14:42And so every time we're adding new integrations to the platform, which by the way, are also built by a majority by our partners for free, there's no money that changes hands there. So partners are building integrations for free to get access and deliver integration to their customers. That opens up and adds new search landing pages to Zapier, which we get new customers then from Google for$0 effectively. So we're able to find this flywheel that meant we were able to acquire customers for very, very low cost, which means we can deliver the software at$10 a month,$15 a month,$20 a month starting price.

15:13And that let us reach a set of customers and users in the world that otherwise just weren't being served historically. And so that is how we make money still through today. We have software as a service. You know, we have starting price plans around$20,$50,$100 goes up from there. You know, we add on later on features around teams and companies and organizations and things like that. We're starting to add more of a traditional sort of sales and go to market plan as well for like upmarket customers and mid-market customers. But by and large, we make money directly by selling software and users and charging for the amount of like tasks and usage they have on Saviour.

15:48Listen, I work with super early stage companies at launch, like literally year zero. They haven't even incorporated yet. And then we hit the Series A, people have thousands of dollars in MRR, and maybe they've only raised a couple of hundred thousand before that Series A, and they don't have their insurance set up. And in fact, we recently had a great startup that didn't have D &O, and we had to really stop everything because they were having board meetings, they were making massive decisions, there were legal issues, and they didn't have the basic D &O insurance that protects directors and officers.

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16:54That's E-M-B-R-O-K-E-R dot com slash twist and use the code twist for 10 % off. Okay, let's get back to this amazing episode. Something interesting happened recently. You mentioned that you were playing with the Facebook API, I believe. They quickly deprecated that. Jamath talked about it on All In, I think, recently when they realized like, hey, wait a second, this is like the core to the business. We don't want you having access to this, Zuckerberg being savvy. and then famously now uh elon and reddit i just had steve huffman on a couple weeks ago uh or last friday i think actually was and he talked about them i don't know if you saw the episode where he talked about turning off access to the api or i'm not turning it off charging a reasonable fee for it monetizing the api so i'm wondering just with this collection of examples they're all happen to be social sites which is interesting um yeah that's my observation as well okay linkedin is another one from earlier you didn't mention that craigslist has no api never did and will in fact sue you if you use any of their data for through a scraper yeah so maybe you can talk about if you want to pick out a business example of mailchimp and shopify also went through sort of an interesting api breakup i think when they started competing with each other like you can go look at their like public blog plus around this but yeah effectively you know mailchimp i think was starting to introduce products in the market in order to compete.

18:16And some of those were going head to head with Shopify. So both of them mutually said, well, it's not great for my business to just be giving away value to my competitors. So we're going to start disallowing our use case or not, not providing the same native integration that they previously had. And one funny outcome from that was we had customers for both of them basically coming to us and say, hey, my vendor of choice is going to stop supporting this native integration can i just use that for and uh that led to both of shopify and also like basically just sending us a lot of their users who depended on the native integration because we have a lot of sort of step in as a bit of a neutral like while you were speaking i typed in mailchimp spotify api and you're the number one result i think on zapier because you're uh neutral you're sweden um but what do you think of this charging for the api because obviously that changes your business uh you now have to i guess um ask people to put in their tokens to uh do this and then i guess with ai and open ai specifically you know they you know they have calls and stuff like that does that dramatically change your business or do people just have to fill up their you know for most like first-party vendors most software providers is actually the preferred way to go like opening i it's kind of introducing a bit of a new way to do product monetization where like hey, you have a direct billing relationship with OpenAI.

19:36And if you want to use a platform product like Zapier to plug in that intelligence layer into a sort of a workflow, you bring your own key, right? You bring your API key to Zapier. My sense is this is actually like the smart savvy way to go about it for a lot of these products. I kind of actually wish that things like, you know, Twitter and all of them would actually adopt more of this model where it's like, okay, if I have a, I'm going to establish my direct billing relationship with my sort of, you know, first party vendor. and then allow that user to bring their token to other tools. Then you just charge for the user to have access to those tools.

20:08You can say, okay, well, allow access to sort of the API for say Twitter in this example. Allow Twitter apps as long as that customer is, you know, Twitter blue and already paying for it, for example. I think that's sort of like, I don't think anybody wants to get disarmeniated. It's like, why would you ever let like a third party company charge on your behalf anyway? I think it's probably not the best place to be. Yeah, it got kind of weird. I think if you look at the time period where you started your company, It started right at the kind of end, tail end of web 2.0 and the web 2.0 movement really where API started in 2005, six, seven, eight.

20:42People were just looking, people were under resourced. Twitter was under resourced as a company. They couldn't raise a lot of money. They couldn't afford to have iOS developers. And you know, when apps came out, so they're like, Hey, you, you, y 'all have at it. Reddit didn't have enough money. It was kind of free outsource development is how the community looked at it. And you're like, Hey, you, make some value for yourself in the world um don't do anything stupid and you know have at it uh and then the problem i guess of course becomes then when you have to go public like reddit does uh or twitter has to turn a profit eventually uh you need to tighten the screws here and then you find out whoa these people were really abusing the api they were taking our data or users and selling it to people and get all these kind of gray markets etc so i think it's actually kind of cool to for the idea that you could just fill up your card and i have a couple of startups who are doing this at open ai they fill up their card and uh yeah then they run it down and it's like okay i need to get more what do they call that uh card that you get when you are in college and you go to the cafeteria whatever that card is called meal card yeah your meal card it's kind of like your meal card like just points on the card get points on the card so uh all right i think for a lot of like b2b companies is apis are are actually in their interest right where social companies have a bigger downside that they have to protect against, which is disintermediation.

22:02Like, you know, I think in Twitter's case, the stories that I had read on the online was, you know, folks, basically, there was like a bunch of first party platform apps that were using the Twitter API that were starting to get consolidated under one owner. And Twitter sort of got spooked and said, well, shoot, we don't want like our business front end to get disintermediated with our users through one owner. So like, we're going to tighten things down. So if you can figure out a clever way to like protect against that outcome from happening, then I think it's all upside from a monetization standpoint.

22:31I think users at this point in time around subscriptions are used to the idea of like, oh, okay, if you're going to provide an ongoing service, there's an expectation that there could be a cost associated with that. Whereas on the B2B side and the prosumer side, integrations are purely upside. And there's almost no disintermediation risk. In fact, these integrations are usually really good. We actually ran a bunch of studies, one with Typeform, that showed integrated users churn like 10 % less. Yeah, I mean, we use... They're super sticky. the fact is we use notion we use type form and type form we love as survey monkey we love we love all these products if they didn't have integrations um yeah we might actually use uh a product like you know google sheets allows you to do forms we might use a product like google sheets instead and just be like it's not as good but it has integration so we'll go with that right it's almost like you would pick we we would not use certain products certain sas products if they didn't have our users to they will select we have a quite a few users lately will actually say i'll go to our like app directory page on zapier and use that to choose software because i can like trust so i at least i know what integrates with things in like they have a sort of the right mindset around that okay listen you got an idea for a tech startup great you think you want to change the world you think you got this this is the one well you've got that same problem that we all do you don't have an engineer or you don't have enough engineers to make this happen and you need product velocity you need to go fast and how are you going to go fast and how are you going to control your burn rate if you got no engineers?

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25:06We'll get to that in the tail end of the show in the third act. But for the second act here, let's go over some of the cool stuff people are doing on Zapier with integrations because my core, and I'll let you fire up your, and share your screen while we're talking my core premise here is there's going to be like a permanent hiring freeze at companies because everybody's getting 30 percent more efficient a year using these tools at least i think and they will continue so why add more people if writing a job rec takes more time than writing a script and automating something so that's the core tenant i come to with this you you think that resonates with most businesses be when faced with a hiring rack versus making things more efficient with tools like yours what should you do it's what a lot of users want like users want automation technology to do work while they sleep like that's that is what buyers want that's the dream i don't think we're there yet and all the use cases even even internally um earlier this year in march we held a company-wide hackathon we actually told everyone the company our pencils down we're going to take an entire week and the company needs to re-educate themselves around what is possible with this technology, what's not possible, and figure out ways to work in your workflows.

26:22And we've gotten up 20 % of every individual person at Zapier. 20 % of all of our employees have worked in some sort of AI into a Zapier workflow that they use. As far as I actually have not talked with a company that has a higher percentage than that yet. So I actually think there's perhaps interesting things to learn there. But it's existential for us. We had to do this. AI and automation are essentially synonymous, I think, going forward. And, you know, Zapier's business is basically, hey, software that works while you sleep, right? So there's... And you're, of course, referring to auto GPT or baby GPTs, I guess people call these, where you give a set of instructions to an AI, and it performs them over time, perhaps even getting better at the task with some scripting or instructions.

27:09So let's do some examples. Well, it's not too far apart from even how you think about what Zapier does today. It's just hard to use for most people. Like Zapier, if you set up a Zap, it's a workflow. It is going to do something forever and without you using the keyboard to come interact with it. But it's really limited. It's constraining, right? It's rigid. And it's also hard to set up. You mentioned at the top of this podcast, like, hey, I have to educate my new employees how to use this technology. It's just not easy enough to actually use right out of the box. The penetration rate of this tech isn't very deep yet.

27:41So I think it's still too hard to use. And I think that's where the technology really has a chance to shine. But yeah, the demos I actually have are the first one is actually they're mostly centered around the chat. You can plug in that we've launched back in. We're one of the launch partners with open air back in March. And I'll show this off in this order. We'll go through maybe a couple examples and we can end on one of the APIs, how this actually works. some of the hood. So this is an example of... I think how we've seen most of our users, even in some internal employees, Zapier adopting this stuff is they'll still...

28:18I've heard a lot of anecdotes actually internally where basically folks will have two tabs open all day. They'll have a chat GPT open in one tab and Zapier open in the other tab. And the reason is because the models of how the software works are completely different. Chat GPT is a piece of software you have to interact with in order to get value out of it. So this example is one I've used myself is, you know, hey, grab an email from my inbox that matches a certain format, and, you know, draft a automatically draft a sort of reply to that. Okay, so you're in chat GPT four, you're using the plugins, you pick Zapier, and you say, Hey, I want to check for an email in my Gmail account.

28:54And you've already authorized it to go to Gmail. And now it finds the latest email and does a reply for you. Yeah, this one summarizes the reply. And then I think if I kind of just, zoom forward here. One of the actual downsides with the plugin architecture on how ChatGPT works right now is everything has to go through these confirm flows, which is... I understand why they do it. The safety argument around it. However, I do think that there's probably some edge cases where we actually take a stronger safe stance than their platform does. And it creates a weird system where two safety systems are trying to be in the middle and it creates a really awkward user experience.

29:30So I think there is more stuff we can do there. But yeah, here's an example of where the plugin is going to come back and grab the email response and summarize it back in. Yeah, so this is an example where we actually opened up a tab on Zapier to give a preview of what the plugin action is about to do. I think this is an example where we've actually inserted our own safety things to let the user explicitly know what actions they're going to do on their behalf instead of just letting them roam free on Zapier on your account. and now we're back inside chat gpt after the user's confirmed and it's pulled an email and summarizing uh the email and i think then in this demo we actually even follow up and ask chat gpt hey can you sign that with with my name and rewrite it my tone and then uh send it through gmail as well and you can actually fire off now from the chat gpt interface using the zapier plugin if you've authorized it it makes you go to that step it will actually do the send from the chat gpt interface it will in this case we're creating drafts this is kind of another one of those like probably tips i would have for most folks that are adopting this tech is like you know the technology is really really good at drafting things so you almost want to lean into use cases where you get to get a preview of it and you can add it and mark it up and have sort of control over it before you press the send button yourself you absolutely can hook this directly up to like sending an email directly um but the one we found most folks inside zapier adopting is you know these flows where it goes through creating a draft for you being able to review it and approve it before hitting send.

30:54Basically, the vision for what we want to try and get this to is it feels like an OAuth flow. Whatever product you're in, if you're in ChatGPT or you're in any other ad product, you need to plug in an action library into it. You click a Zapier button. You say that vendor says, Hey, I'd like to get access to your Gmail account, your Salesforce account, and your Typeform account. And the user says, it looks like an OAuth flow pop up. The user says, Yep, that sounds good. And now you're back inside the first party product. and you can go from there. In the initial version that we released, it's like one, there's one extra step, which is in addition to having to approve it and allow you also explicitly today have to choose which actions from those apps you want to allow the chat to have access to.

31:39So today, for example, with the Gmail, when you saw, when we set that up, you had to say, yeah, okay, I want to allow chat to access to Gmail, but I also want to have it allowed to send a draft email. So it's one extra step today we have to choose those and that's somewhat of a limitation of sort of the language model technology and somewhat of a limitation of the api experience overall right now yeah it's it's there is a it's a little kludgy you have to log in i remember doing this you have to log into zapier and then there are some links that you have to go to to make sure you can search your gmail make sure you can send from gmail and uh that i'm sure will be abstracted in the coming weeks and months.

32:17Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't disagree with you at all, by the way. Um, and you know, I think if you, and I have, I've looked at and sort of obsessed over some of the usage and some of the numbers from this stuff. Um, you know, I, I do think that a lot of the plugins and folks I've talked to retention is, is a problem right now with them. You know, I think if you kind of look at like, it's almost like a bit of a numbers game. Um, you know, if you're sort of able to spread your user base over enough users, you can sort of find a percentage of them that you're gonna find these sticky use cases to build this like chat and plugin thing into their workflow the reality is most people in the world haven't even worked chat chp t into their workflows yet so like no asking them to then add on a plugin that is also like you know an active development like it's i think we're still quite a boys away before you're going to see like kind of the refinement you needed from a lot of these this like plugin ecosystem and how even just getting the penetration of chat to begin to like legitimate like sticky use cases i think is still still search for most most well you know it's it's it's going to be a slow process and then it's going to be a really fast one because once um you know the first 10 people in an organization figure this out and they become bionic and they're able to do really interesting things with their gmail box like say who are the people that i was you know emailing with back in 2012 to 2020 that i'm no longer emailing with summarize my conversations with them and then suggest which one you know some emails to catch up with them and like whoa that's going to be super powerful or like you know you're a venture capitalist hey what founders um was i talking to 10 years ago what are they doing now and it's like boop like this is going to lead to um being able to do things that would take so much time nobody would ever even consider doing them like you would have to hire a full-time person to hey go through my emails from you know the 2010 to 2020 period find every founder put them into a google sheet and then look up on their linkedin and see which ones are still at the same company boom it's like yeah whoa and it works and it works so it's super powerful we sort of see that exact same thing that's the message we delivered internally, which is how we got so many folks that have started to adopt in real use cases is, hey, this is like a chance to go learn the technology.

34:41The future is not going to be like... And I can't... I really struggle to think of any sort of technological disruption that displace jobs in a quarter. But over the course of 2, 3 years, 5 years, you're going to see folks that accelerate ahead because they understand and use the technology. You're going to have like infants in the job market who natively know this stuff, Especially if you look at the adoption rates of like chat GPT and education coming, like all those folks graduating through college and entering the job market, like they're going to have a skill set that I think a lot of other folks probably won't have.