TWiT 1081: That's Miasma - John Ternus Replacing Tim Cook as Apple CEO

37:41You could see how exercise impacts it. But we actually don't have enough data among endocrinologists and medical experts to say what is good or bad data for a non-diabetic. Like what your blood sugar should be sort of? We have an idea of a range. It should be between like 70 and 140 mg per deciliter. But, you know, so there was this study and I talked to the researcher who conducted it where they gave, I think, about 18 endocrinologists, expert endocrinologists who use CGMs every day with their patients. They gave them about 20 sets of data from non-diabetics, and they couldn't come to a consensus about whether these people should be recommended for further screening or whether they are totally fine.

38:33So it's sort of this situation where all the experts are like, well, we don't know what to do with non-diabetic data. But you have wellness influencers out here who are saying that you have to optimize your metabolism. Like you should never have a spike that's over 30 milligrams per deciliter. You should never get above 115 milligrams per deciliter, depending on what you're eating. And it creates this anxiety, just like a sleep tracker. Yeah, just like a lot of anxiety, which I personally experienced. And it led to a bunch of disordered eating habits for me. Like I couldn't enjoy myself at parties because I would be like, oh, my God, my my glucose monitor is going to spike.

39:17And then also I was getting readings that didn't match up with a previous two week stint that I had done under Nutrisense the year prior. When I had done that. Oh, I did Nutrisense too. That was a CGM as well. Yeah. Like when I had done that testing in 2023, I was eating like crap. And at the same time, my data was just like, you're perfect. Your glucose doesn't matter what you do. You can't seem to get a spike over 120 milligrams per deciliter. And then a year later, it was like, ha ha, your baseline glucose went up 40 points for no reason. And so I was like, is there something wrong with me?

39:57I have a family history of diabetes and liver cancer and a bunch of metabolic dysfunction is within my family. So I would go to the doctors with my continuous glucose monitor data and they would be like, I don't know why you're wearing that. Your A1C is fine. Your blood, your fasting blood glucose is fine. you have nothing wrong with you. And I was like, I don't know, I feel like something's not fully right. I have a polycystic ovary syndrome diagnosis, which also impacts your likelihood for insulin resistance, and it can like lead to diabetes later on in life. So I was like aware of these things.

40:33And after a long period of time of advocating for myself and having like these feelings about food and exercise, I found out that I do have something called, it's a long metabolic dysfunction associated statatic liver. It's fatty liver due to metabolic, just my metabolism is shit, basically. You're my kind of person because, you know, I'm an old man and we could sit around on the front porch and talk about all of our little ailments and problems. And you just have a lot You have a rich, rich collection of things. But you seem so happy. Do you feel better? I mean, do you feel that the diagnosis of your fatty med?

41:20That's good to know, right? Does it change the way you do anything? Or does it provide some level of peace for you, Victoria? It was like a thing. On the one hand, it was like, no, I kind of had a sense that I had it for a long time because I'd had elevated liver enzymes for years and doctors were just like, it's probably not that bad because it's not that elevated above normal. And then through the course of one year, a bunch of my metrics just went crazy and I was feeling exhausted and tired and I had no idea why. And then they took my liver enzymes again and they were like, oh, they sextupled for one of them and they tripled for another.

41:57That's not good. You've gone from mild to moderate it and are in danger of liver scarring at this point. And we need to reverse that. So I got on a bunch of medications. I don't enjoy being on these medications. They have come with like some pretty severe side effects for me for the last couple of months. And so it's like a, it's a weird thing because these wellness influencers are, and you know, not just wellness influencers, but also like rfk jr and his whole ilk are very on top of the metabolic optimizing trend and all of that victoria is more peptides we'll get into those don't i'm doing a lot of research these days and oh just need some peptides and a little brain worm and you'll be good well yeah like that sounds with validating and you got some diagnosis.

42:50Yeah, she got a diagnosis. Yeah. It also, yeah, it reminds me of those scans, the full body scans that people do. And we don't know what a healthy body has in it. Right. I've done that. I did the pre-new. Yeah. I mean, you did it and sure it may catch something, but it's also going to catch a lot of nothing. And what I learned and why my doctor told me is everybody's got something wrong with them. Yeah. We generally like to wait till you have some symptoms because then, you know, we're not treating something that's just you're a different animal. and I would say I really appreciate it Victoria in that story how you talked about how it led to some of your disordered eating because way back in the beginning of like smart home coverage I had like a smart scale in again not a glucose monitor but I saw this coming and was trying it out and I hated I hated it it brought back so many like bad behaviors and thoughts and And I just appreciated that your story talked about that in a way that a lot of them don't.

43:57People focus a lot on the data and less on the like, how does this change the way I feel about my day-to-day life in my body? Yeah, like this obsession with using technology to optimize yourself. I think it can have a very dark side to it, especially since we don't know how accurate the data is. So you're basing a lot. Yeah, we don't even know what it is to be optimized. That's what drives me absolutely bonkers. Yeah. I do all of those. I have that smart scale. I know how much muscle mass. I know I have the Oura Ring. I have the Apple Watch. I have every possible quantified self BS device there is.

44:35And I think the number one conclusion I came up with is the numbers aren't that meaningful. They really aren't. It can be useful to have a baseline and know when you deviate from the baseline. And that is sort of what led me to finding a diagnosis and then taking steps to reverse it. Because I got the diagnosis and I found out that my liver enzymes went haywire at the same time that my uncle was undergoing surgery to remove part of his liver. So it was kind of like a very emotional time for me to be like, oh, you know, at least I'm catching it early enough where it can be reversed. At least I can take steps towards that.

45:12And to be fair, you might have found that out with a blood test anyway, right? I probably would have. actually, like at my next physical, I probably would have figured that out. So it was sort of like I figured it out a couple of months early. Was it worth having all of those like thoughts in my head? And it was like, well, you know, my blood tests now in a certain, like if I was optimizing for metabolism, my blood tests now look a lot better, but my cardiovascular metrics or my other wearables are much worse because I have these side effects and it has been very hard for me to do the level of cardio exercise that I had been doing previously for that.

45:48So it's like, am I healthier than I was before? In some ways, yes. And in other ways, no. And I think it speaks to how wearable technology often treats mental health as an afterthought. And it doesn't speak to the way that these tools can be used to perpetuate some harmful, like, disordered eating habits. And one thing that really stuck with me was the type one diabetics reaching out to me to be like, oh yeah, we have those anxieties around food, but we don't have a choice about that. We have to live with that every single day. I don't understand why non-diabetics are being pushed to live the way that we do, to constantly be weighing our food, to constantly be just like panicked about everything that gets put in our mouth.

46:35And I was like, yeah, no, that's not really a great way to live. And it was funny because some diabetics would look at my data and they'd be like, girl, you're fine. Why are you freaking out? And it's like, well, I'm not optimized. Whoa. And what does that mean? Right. So I kind of wanted to tell the story. It's like, it's not black and white. There is a lot of value to be had for people who are pre-diabetic, people like you, Leo, who are type two diabetic to have that insight and to make those lifestyle changes. But it's not just people who have a legitimate reason now. They want everyone to be using these devices.

47:09And is that something we should be doing? I'm inclined to think no. So, yeah. That's why I prefer to stay fully unquantified. It's just different types of people. I'm not a natural hypochondriac, so I can get that data and not get all worried about it. But I could see that it's like, you know it's like the ubiquity of gambling now there are some people who that's dynamite you know they're playing with dynamite and i and i think that that's the problem is um you know in this modern capitalist society as long as somebody's making money at it it's okay and they don't think about the uh the consequences of all this qualified self for some people not for everybody i'll give you an example really fast i've had a fitbit since it came out so i had the little flower fitbit from i think it was 2011 and i i looked back over the 16 is that 16 years of data 17 years of data almost um and there everyone's like oh it's great for seeing trends over time and you're right you can see like the 30 year old version of me you can see you're starting on here it's a slow decline your decline and as you get all right i am i am tracking like oh, look, I used to walk seven miles a day.

48:27That's crazy. Now I only walk like five and a half. And so, and actually my heart rate and stuff has gone down. But the point here is, partly it's because I'm like, do I want to buy another tracker? If so, which one do I get value out of it? And after like this many years of tracking and doing like athletic-ish pursuits, I'll say athletic-ish because I'm not like hardcore anything. But pickleball counts. I think the answer is no. Yeah. It just - You're not going to do it anymore. It doesn't really give me a lot of value. It's like the dopamine hit when you wake up and you're like, oh my God, I got a 90 sleep score.

49:06That never happens. Oh, if only. Oh, man. Yeah, it really never happens. I'm settling for 70. It's good. It's good. I'm happy. All right. Well, that was a good conversation. not on our playlist, but I'm glad we did. I'm glad we did. We're going to take another break. Then we will talk about all of those other things that I mentioned that are, I don't mind. You know, honestly, this show should go wherever the people who are on it want to take it. I mean, layoffs. Who wants to hear about layoffs? I know, I'm not anxious. I'm not anxious to talk about that. That does make me anxious. So Sam got cars, Victoria got CGMs.

49:45uh stacy if you want to talk about lo-ra or something we can we can do that next whatever or nutrition labels whatever you know whatever you want to i miss the twig lo-ra discussions yeah those were fun go back to that do you still have that router in your window that ships can use as they pass by no longer have the helium router that that was part of like basically a ponzi ponzi scheme that i was unaware of the yeah did you ever make a lot of money it wasn't money that got paid in helium right well yeah but i i turned it into like whatever the helium coin was and then i turned it into cash because i am old and i like my money under the mattress smart smart by the way not in weird meme coins these days that's probably not a bad strategy yeah yeah no kidding uh and i didn't i neglected to mention this but i will mention this victoria's article on the verge you can search for it is and i love the title a year of continuous glucose coast monitoring pushed me to the edge thank you victoria uh we are gonna take a break we'll come back with more in just a little bit the uh show this week brought to you by doppel d-o-p-p-e-l maybe you know that uh that text message maybe that maybe that is an urgent message for your from your ceo maybe it is or maybe it's a deep fake trying to target your business trying to rip you off ai can impersonate trusted individuals it happens all the time remember that wild story last year of the cfo who was convinced he was in a zoom call with his ceo and the board and they told him write a big check and he did and they were all fakes deep fakes that fooled him you remember that story it can happen to you ai can impersonate trusted individuals but doppel's platform illustrates how frequently users fall for phishing attempts in in in voice call simulation deployments all right voice call target users spent this is scary six minutes conversing with a deep fake i mean it's not just one line they stay talk to it for six minutes 100 of them believed the ai was human you need doppel doppel is the ai native social engineering defense platform doppel strengthens human risk management by training employees to recognize deception while their digital risk protection detects and disrupts attacks across every channel as attackers turn to ai to power increasingly sophisticated strikes doppel uses it to fight back.

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52:58Doppel, momentum leader, best support. That's three. Join hundreds of companies already using Doppel to protect their brand and people from social engineering attacks. Doppel, outpacing what's next in social engineering. Learn more at doppel.com. That's D-O-P-P-E-L.com. And boy, do we need that right now. On we go with the show. Yeah, I don't want to talk about layoffs, but man it's bad out there and it's it's been bad and it's getting bad meta has now said they're going to lay off 10 of their workforce they told their staff that today not the only thing they told staff they also announced they're going to record your keystrokes and use it to train their ai models okay uh microsoft did an interesting thing they said okay if the amount of time that you I had to do the math the amount of time you've been with Microsoft plus your age is greater than 70 will buy you out and I had to think about that now if you're 40 years old you couldn't have been at Microsoft 30 years so you're out because it you wouldn't have started when you're 10.

54:12If you're 50 though you could have started when you were 20 that would give you 70 you could retire so what they're basically saying is if you're over 50 and you've been with us for a while well, here's the door. And we got a package for you. That is a little bit more humane, I guess. I don't know what Meta is going to offer its employees. And of course, in both these cases, they intend to replace these employees with AI. Here's the question. Is that AI washing? Are they really just trying to get rid of people and blaming AI? Or is it really because AI has gotten so good now they don't need those people what do you think i can't both possibly believe that ai is good enough for them to get rid of people just based on like my own personal testing of it where like it's still even at the things that it's good at it still needs a human oftentimes to just shape it into a thing that's actually usable so i really i think there's a degree of ai washing in there but also So it's sort of just like, okay, I mean, you're going to do this.

55:24And then a little bit further down the line, I imagine they'll rehire some of these people. And then once they need earnings to go up and investors to be happy, they'll do the layoffs again. That's what this really is, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like this is just like... They're getting expensive people. Yeah, that's what I was just going to say. The people who've got the most experience, they've been there the longest, they're getting paid the most. Those are the people that are being let go. And I mean, it happens in every industry. A lot of it has happened in the auto industry in recent years, but it happens everywhere.

55:58When they need to tighten up, the most expensive people are the ones that get shown the door. What I will say, it's a little scary. And this is because my kid is in college right now looking in the job market eventually. it is really unclear to me because you can take away your expensive people and replace them with AI by hiring a cheaper person who can act as your human in the loop right but they're not hiring young people either like they're really junior people so I'm really And I feel like we're not going to hit – I feel like – I wonder if we're going where we were with the trades, where everybody went out of the trades because it was not – you know, conceding as a great job.

56:49That's too bad because we need more trades, people. And we need them now. Nobody's fixing anything. We didn't build in training programs. We didn't build economic incentives. And even when they saw this coming, you still didn't see a lot of economic incentives from a company's investing in training. They would invest in college programs. So I'm very curious if we're going to see something like that happen with more of the white collar work where we denigrate it, we kill most of the pipeline, and then suddenly we're going to look up and be like, oh, wait, who do we have now to do this work that we absolutely still need a human to do?

57:29And it's short-sighted, but we've been living on that short-sighted edge for quite some time. it does feel like it's everything's about the quarterly results and nobody's looking five years down the road at all we're just like thinking about what we're supposed to do with our time like everyone keeps saying ai is going to make things more convenient and so we'll lay everybody off okay so what happens when we're all laid off are we just all going to launch our own podcast to fill up the unemployment time i got three of them monitoring we're kind of really We rigorously plan our meals. One word, Victoria, macrame.

58:05Okay. I'm just saying. It's the future. We'll all be doing macrame. My favorite, by the way, my favorite cover band touring in Petaluma these days is Fleetwood Macrame. Anyway, I'm just... Do they all wear macrame outfits? No, I don't know. It's just a good name. One of the things Meta might be spending this money on, you may remember they admitted that they were going to make 16 billion dollars in 2024 because of scam advertising 10 of their total advertising once they admitted that the lawsuits have started to pile up uh in the uk the us and australia um because basically meta's internal documents submitted it they didn't do much to stop it and now the lawsuit's saying meta knowingly profited from fraudulent they didn't just not stop it they like profited on it let's do more to an incredibly like the cynicism there yeah consumer federation not consumer reports we actually did a letter on this and have been following it pretty closely because it's a huge scam issue and that's one of the things we work hard on you know that story broke a couple of years ago and it just kind of went away and it's like it's okay last october so eight months ago but it's it's like a huge story and it just kind of yeah well i think it was almost built in like everybody figured oh yeah that we we thought they were doing that well there's lawmakers are actually taking some action on it now good i think that i think they won like a couple journal reuters run a few journalism awards yay journalism awards yay journalism yay well they deserve it because that's just appalling And then there's also the fact that Meta is now going to Amazon and is going to buy millions of Amazon AI CPUs.

59:59So they are taking that money and spending it on AI. They're going to buy the Graviton, which is Amazon's ARM-based. By the way, CPU, not GPU.

1:00:15Are they using it for inference? Well, that's a good question. That would be my guess. agents create compute intensive workloads oh agents create compute intensive workloads like real-time reasoning writing code searching so you do need cpu to coordinate the gpu and in fact that's exactly what graviton is designed to do handle ai related compute needs so i guess that's why because they're spending money i'm sure spending money with nvidia as well yeah well the the nvidia chips already have cpu cores built into them okay they have they have arm cpu cores you know a blackwell hat you know is mostly gpu but it has some arm cores it's got some tensor cores uh a bunch of other bits and pieces part of it was they couldn't buy it because amazon does have a gpu the tranium which is literally the worst name ever the tranium they couldn't get those because Anthropic basically bought them all for years to come.

1:01:16So I guess they're also just getting what they can get. Anthropic agreed to spend$100 billion over 10 years to run its workloads on Amazon Web Services. That's not real money. That's more of that funny money? We should stop. Like, this drives me absolutely insane. So wait a minute. There's one more story that you can then complain about, too. google investing 40 billion dollars in uh in a in a uh anthropic is that not real money either okay we should stop reporting these we should get the details of like when the tranches for these payout and we should report them that way because it is spread out right it is absolutely spread out it doesn't exist yet right we're talking about they're going to spend you know billions of dollars on something the chips don't exist but it's also data center in the compute where that commute happens it doesn't exist it's also uh it zeros out because amazon announced it was going to invest five billion dollars into anthropic so then anthropic said we're going to invest 10 billion dollars in amazon which could go up to 40 billion dollars of anthropic it or no then google's it's like it's all going this looks like racketeering i'm so sorry if you follow like like old school like it's to fool people crime finance yeah you're you're paid and i'm sure their core i mean and they have gap accounting in like cartels too these people deal with money and make it um they probably don't call it gap account they do 10 q's They do not have audits, nor do they report to the SEC.

1:03:03But it's important to know how much money you're making. Is it real money? And how liquid am I? And what has happened, I think, here's what I think. the tech press for decades we've been like yeah tech and we've been focused there and now suddenly all these people in the tech press who historically been pretty nice to the people i cover we're being asked to be financial press right we are not financial press and the financial press is now so totally beholden to wall street and i don't even know what else there's very few people who are doing the actual math, who even have the capability to do that math.

1:03:46Sorry, I, this is like, as I started out business reporting and doing stupid accounting stuff, went into tech, and now I'm like, oh, I should get back into like the business. Yeah, we need you. Well, and to build on what you said, Stacey, you know, even, you know, to even do any of that kind of analysis of it as a, as a financial reporter, you know, so many of these companies are still private. The ones that are public, they, you know, they obfuscate so much of this in their, in their books anyway, that it's, it's hard to really extract any real fundamental understanding of what's going on. Well, give me some advice then all of you, because I mean, these are stories across the wire and I want to report on them.

1:04:32Should I just not even mention them or should I mention them and do what we're doing right now, which is point out that it's, it's circular. I You have to ask the question. So Leo, you don't like, remember how I used to yell at you for not asking questions and researching things? You've got to call their financial BS. I have a little bit of a trauma. I'm sorry, the trauma. Post-traumatic syndrome. Yeah, we should be pulling up their 10Ks and analyzing everything and seeing what we can find. Can I get my AI to do that? I mean, you can. I wonder if that's the truth. I mean, I've used Lovable to write spreadsheet, like pull data from financial reports into spreadsheets.

1:05:16And that's totally useful. So what would you be looking for? Well, I don't know because I haven't, one, I haven't spent the time on this. But every industry has code, places where fraud likes to hide. so like you know in retail you can look at inventory and how they're like in here actually inventory would be another good place to look for it um i'm trying to think of it's been so long um since i've had to think about any somebody could do really well being a forensic accountant yeah actually my wife is a really good forensic accountant i should get i should get i should get lisa into this she's really good at this stuff she could do this in follow the money that's what they tell you and follow the money um all right so we're not saying it's fraudulent we're saying though it's manipulative the math ain't math it's it's misleading it's to fool the markets to fool investors to fool the tech press to convince everybody everything's sunny and they're not even working that hard That's what drives me nuts.

1:06:29I mean, I should probably do this. I don't have this much spare time. I know. Even if you go back to the original Microsoft investment in OpenAI, it was what,$10 billion that they gave to OpenAI, which was basically for OpenAI to buy Azure Time. Right. And it's just exploded from there. Right. That's maybe when they figured it all out. Well, speaking of AI, Spud is out, OpenAI's new GPT 5.5. It thinks it's really good, OpenAI does, and so does Spud. It's got a terrible name. I played with it a little bit. I like potatoes. Yeah. Well, you don't think of potatoes as being like great computational devices.

1:07:17I mean, it's just an odd name. I think Mythos, now that was a good name from Anthropic. But Spud, what's funny is as soon as these companies release a new model, as soon as Anthropic releases Opus 4.7 and Mythos, OpenAI says, well, we got 5.5. Then DeepSeek, which we haven't heard from in a while, they were the ones that shook everything up in January of last year when they showed that, in fact, maybe China has some pretty good models. They have a new model, V4, which they're saying is as good as the best frontier models from Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google. and i think from what i've seen that's close to true um i don't know what it means uh they're not i guess what it means jensen wong said this in a kind of provocative interview he did with dorkesh who is becoming the ai guy right for podcasting uh he said you know you don't want to keep china from getting our best chips because all china is going to do is build up its own chips and its own proprietary stuff using the huawei chips for instance which i think deep seek was trained on and that's going to make them better instead of having kind of a universal now it's a little self-serving because jensen really does want them to buy his chips but he has a good point if everybody uses cuda then nobody has this advantage but there's a real risk if if you force china to get good at this that it'll be i don't know it'll be too diverse it won't be a we won't all be on the same page that we could lose our competitive edge is what he said does that make sense or is it just like in some backwards way like you can kind of see what he's saying right it like it makes they get really good but at this like from a different point of view it's like well isn't that what you want?

1:09:16Don't you want there to be more competition? Don't you want there to be a lot of like, um, competing different versions of it? Do, is it good to have everything be on one universal thing in some ways in terms of convenience? Yes. But in terms of competition, no, you do want, you do want these companies to be afraid and looking over their shoulder. Cause that's how you get innovation. So like, I think it's a bit self-serving of him to say that like, and when you have a$5 trillion company, do you really want competition? no you don't you just want to you want six trillion if you have five trillion you're thinking about how you're going to get the six trillion sell all the chips you can make to until the eu comes knocking and then yeah like well yeah i mean intel used to keep amd like just surviving right just microsoft did that with apple right just so that they didn't have a monopoly right see there's there's competition we got competition they're not very good but we got them uh i have competition apparently from ashley vance this is a just this is a weird side story but i thought it was very weird he did an interview behind a paywall uh with sam altman and greg brockman and somebody on twitter said well you got to release this uh to the public they they said this isn't free vance i think joking and i i've interviewed him he wrote a book about elon some time ago said well i'll make it public if you give me a hundred thousand dollars so a guy did jim belichick the ceo of a nevada-based laser manufacturing company send cut send gave him a hundred thousand dollars to unlock the podcast now everybody can hear it by the way everybody says it's a very good episode um man what was i thinking access journalism pays off for ashley vance it feels a little it just feels a little odd a little weird he said the funding wasn't pre-arranged uh i it wasn't intentional he has a podcast called core memory and a youtube channel of which by the way send cut send is now a sponsor i guess he i guess he got something for the hundredth thou anyway i i don't know i don't know how i feel about that because on the one hand dirty because on the one hand like i understand you know the verge has a paywall lots of publications have paywalls because you know google and the death of seo and all of that money yeah we got to keep the lights on in some and in some respect especially since journalism isn't like quality journalism isn't cheap to produce.

1:11:56It takes a lot of time, effort, and whatnot, and resources. But at the same time, just like, you know, I think there's discussions to be had about if something is in the public interest and in the public good, making it accessible in some way. Maybe you don't put all of it out there, but whatever is relevant and that people should know, like, the whole point of journalism is to inform people. But to sell it, to be like, kind of like, well, you know, there's a lot of good info in here, but I need someone to pay me $100 ,000 before I make it public. Like, I feel like I'm not, you know, get your bag.

1:12:32Journalism is suffering. So I'm not going to begrudge any journalists for making money. But at the same time, like journalism at its core is about providing people with information. And so if you have something really valuable that was of public interest, I think there should be a conversation about making the most important parts of that free for the greater public good versus just going like, cha-ching! I think that's what like rubs me as like, this is kind of not feeling great looking at it. Because I think if we had some like, you know, conversation late inside baseball at The Verge, if we have a story that's like really, really, really relevant, we have a couple of stories that go up every day that are free that do get outside of the paywall even though all of our content is like in under a dynamic paywall because it's sort of like news you know like the new york times has a subscription but if there's breaking news everybody can see what the breaking news is right so it's sort of there's something we do the same thing i mean we don't hide anything behind a paywall but uh sometimes we'll do stuff in the club that we like are like your book club stacy that we let people listen to when we're doing it live and then we put it behind the paywall for a month and then we make it public um not that we ever do anything that is particularly newsworthy but most of everything including this is public this show is public um so should i be asking for more money for the i think we need to get a hundred thousand dollars from you stacy actually is what i think oh me me that's like right now i even buy my own books.

1:14:11I would feel really weird doing that, I have to say. I would feel a little bit odd. It also feels like cherry-picking in some sense, right? And this is what the journalistic, like a lot of publications did. You have a few stories that are really, you kind of cherry-picked your beat, right? So you only focused on stories that it used to be page views. Now it maybe is things that are going to be worth the money from an analyst. And GigaOm way back in the day had our research business and that theoretically was that. Yeah. I mean, Wall Street Journal makes money because people make money by paying for it, right?

1:14:52Well, and yeah, you could argue Bloomberg has - Same thing. The terminals are hugely expensive. Yeah. But you also did other journalism that was not as well remunerated right that people wouldn't necessarily pay for and that journalism was you used to think it was kind of a public good i don't know yeah no yeah every every you know news is essentially pro bono but you got to pay for it in some way so yeah like news that gets clicks versus news that doesn't get clicks right as someone who wrote deeply about wireless protocols not all of my stories got clicks not link bait exactly you won't believe what laura's gonna do next 10 ways wi-fi could change your life it's all in the headline writing is fox foxes for is selling the verge or no what did i read about that what are they talking about that and i would love to know too leo uh it's one of those things where like there's been a couple of media rumors about um jim bankoff's shopping around the sites as far as i know we're not going anywhere um the verge is what i think almost certainly the premier tech blog in a tech site right now in the in the world i mean you know i haven't heard anything about like us getting sold um so far it's just like stuff from puck and i think ad week saying that that's the problem i read puck there's my problem and i pay a lot of money to read by the way it's not i mean there's been rumors what you should be doing is paying your money to read the verge i do i am a paid member premium subscriber of course to the verge see yeah no the verge is worth it absolutely absolutely thank you guys yeah it helps keep the lights on but speaking of which i'm going to take a break for an ad how about that you're watching this week in tech with from the verge the wonderful victoria song senior reviewer always a pleasure to have you on thank you toria samabulsamid my personal car guy wheel bearings dot media and i apologize sam sent me an email saying it's not the department of war it's the Department of Defense, Leo.

1:17:13And I sometimes slip into the colloquialisms, the Gulf of America, the Department of War, but I understand the legal name is the Department of Defense. I appreciate the correction, Sam. I forgot to respond to that, so I thought I'd respond in person. No worries. Anyway, great to have you, Sam. And of course, Stacey Higginbotham from the wonderful Consumer Reports. Our show today brought to you by Meter, talking about wi-fi let's talk about meter the company building better networks you would love this company stacy founded by two network engineers who feel your pain if you are a network engineer they know what it's like and you know what it's like legacy providers inflexible pricing i.t resource constraints stretching you thin but of course you're expected to work miracles for nothing complex deployments across fragmented tools.

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1:18:45So Meter designs and builds the hardware. They write the firmware. They build the software. They manage deployments. And they provide support. One number does it all. they will do everything going down to the getting the isp procurement they will do security for you routing switching wireless firewall cellular power is really important right they'll do the power they do dns security they do vpns sdwans they specialize in the challenging situations that you will run across in business multi-site workflows you acquire a company they've got a 200 ,000 square foot, you know, warehouse in Muncie, and you're over there in Chicago, and you got to get them on your network and their Wi-Fi never worked well to begin with.

1:19:36But Meter comes in, they fix it all with a single solution. Meter's single integrated networking stack works in the most challenging environments, major hospitals. They're in branch offices and warehouses. They're in large campuses. They're in data centers. Reddit uses Meter. Okay. Here's a quote from the Assistant Director of Technology for Webb School of Knoxville. Quote, we had more than 20 games on our campus between our two facilities. Each game, every one of those 20 games streamed via wireless and wired connections. And the event went off without a hitch. We could never have done this before Meter redesigned our network.

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1:20:51Go to meter.com slash twit to book a demo. You should do that right now. M-E-T-E-R dot com slash twit to book a demo. We thank them so much for their support of This Week in Tech. Talked to these guys a couple of, like last month, I was so impressed with what they're doing. We mentioned Mythos, this spooky anthropic model that they say it's too good to release to the public instead they give it to 50 companies saying fix your software before we give it to the bad guys but what's funny and remember anthropic is the one that the president said nobody uh in the government should be using the defense department said that they are a supply chain risk which is usually reserved for foreign government software but then mythos came out and apparently the nsa said you know we could really use this so uh according to axios nsa is using mythos despite the blacklist uh and many other government agencies looking to do it last week we talked about this last week the dario amode the ceo of anthropic went to the white house and uh and uh apparently president trump now thinks they're pretty good mythos some questions about whether it was just a marketing ploy but uh mozilla said they've used it to find and fix 271 bugs in the current version of firefox one that just came out uh and anthropic has surged to a trillion dollar valuation because of this but also because enterprises seem to have been very enamored of anthropics opus as well.

1:22:38And bad guys got Mythos. Apparently, according to a number of sources, a group of unauthorized users has gained access to Mythos in their Discord. The unauthorized group tried a number of different strategies to gain access, including using access enjoyed by the person who was interviewed by Bloomberg, which broke this story, the person currently employed at a third-party contractor that does work for anthropic they're on a discord channel they've been using it they said regularly since gaining access to it and they showed bloomberg screenshots and a live demonstration

1:23:23cool cool what could go wrong paris asked a great question you you're telling me that this cyber security tool that's the best thing ever couldn't protect itself I guess not. Not when there are humans. That's the problem, isn't it? We are the weak ones in the code. We are so terrible. Just eliminate the humans and it'll all be good. Yeah. I mean, we just want things to be so easy and frictionless. And that is our problem. Bloomberg said the group made, quote, an educated guess about the model's online location. And that worked? And it worked. didn't they didn't they pull a url out of the leaked maybe I think I heard that one somewhere yeah the leaked source code from a couple weeks ago the good news is these aren't hackers they just like playing around with the latest models and so they haven't used it to create zero days or anything at least as far as we know so far we don't know that everything's fine They didn't.

1:24:29So, I mean. I believe it. I should just trust them. I will say, like, everybody's freaked out about, like, AI and cybersecurity, and they should be. But I will say the biggest thing that I think people should be worried about is that everything that was secure by obscurity is now open. Yeah. There's no more obscurity. Yeah, I mean, now you've got the sheer brute force of these AI systems that can go and find everything that was hidden. It wasn't even hidden. A lot of it's like, well, it's too, like, there's things that are hidden. And that's, that's one thing. But then there's a lot of stuff that is floating around that people are like, why would you ever want to hack a, you know, I don't know, this weird esoteric industrial robot that cleans floors?

1:25:20And someone's like, yeah, actually, I would love to do that. Or you're like, oh, there's only, you know, 100 ,000 of this car out there. It's not useful to really invest the time to do a stupid hack on it. But now you can do it in a night just for lulls, you know?

1:25:42SpaceX XAI Grok has said that they are going to, well, either buy cursor the ai code uh generating tool coding tool for 60 billion or just give them 10 billion one way or the other um this is another one of those funny because money's not real this is another this money's not real um they said they and they and they you know what they posted it on x this week that they're working with cursor to create the world's best coding and knowledge work ai combining cursor's AI-powered coding model with SpaceX's Colossus training. I need an echo. I wonder if they're poisoning the training data to get better valuations.

1:26:31Are people doing that yet? They have to be, right? They could do it, right? Colossus. Sorry. It sounds better that way, though. All these names are just breaking my brain. Colossus training supercomputer. computer that's just can we just like can everyone just have a mandatory touch grass session every day this is what we all need five hours of touch grass time every single day because the headlines just get more ridiculous i would but i'm right in the middle of a coding session with claude and i i just can't leave so if you don't mind i'd like to stay here it wants me to review the spec so grass can wait grass will always be here i was on the grass this afternoon did you with your doggie yeah with your doge there's a problem with kitties right victoria they don't really go for walks no with you anyway no like i i do everything to keep my cats inside because um my cat ran out the other day and i got him to come back in by yelling peter you are not for the streets and he ran back inside and he listened yeah he listened because i never yell at him so that's what happens when you give a cat a human name you call your cat peter his name is pety and when he when he's being bad it gets elevated to peter in which case he's like oh mommy's mad and he ran back inside immediately oh there's a sweet little corgi i think yeah oh goodness yeah corgis are funny dogs because they god made their legs too short and but it makes some cute corgi that way and stacy just got a brand new australian shepherd i'm not gonna pick her up oh she just popped up and yeah she's she's real cute sweetie yeah she's super sweet love her they're very smart though right don't aren't those the ones that'll nip at your um at your heels if you don't a corgi will nip at your hairs um yeah they're both any any herding dog yeah yeah any herding dogs like you go here um yes very very smart very athletic we've already been on a five mile hike this morning and i guarantee when i'm done with this show we're going to be back out there i've told this story before victoria but i haven't told you our cat rings the doorbell we have a ring doorbell and she's learned to walk up to it and stare at it until it and then the rings in the house the chimes ring because there's movement in the house and And then we go and we let her in.

1:29:06That's a smart cat. She's learned it. But then the neighborhood cats have also learned it too now. So now, Lisa, when the chime rings, she says, okay, who is it? Is it Rosie? Or is it Georgie? Or, you know, we have all these cats. We'll come to the, I guess they learn from each other. They come to the doorbell. And then depending on how much we like the cat, we'll feed it. Oh, I was going to say, if you feed it, they'll definitely. They learn. They're so smart. so ring should have started with cats for you and not their like surveillance dog network and i will absolutely say our ring does not point at anything but our front walkway there's you can't see the street you can't see the neighbors you can't see anything but our front walkway from the ring so don't worry but what about people who deliver to your house we see that but that's what we want to see that's the whole idea so we know there's a box there right you're you're inviting them into the surveillance state against their consent.

1:30:04But they took the job with Amazon. Didn't they know there's a camera in the van? There's a camera in the house. In this economy, can you afford not to take the job? I'm asking the questions to make you think a little harder about it. Okay, but to make up for that, we offer them snacks and beverages. We have a little refrigerator are out there and we have a bowl full of chips and healthy snacks as well so that if they are hungry and and we have a porta potty outside because we've been the house has been under construction for the last 23 years so you know basically they use our facilities so i figure we should and the but no the porta potty is not on the camera okay it's in a separate well it is on this never mind never mind this is why my husband you need you need your little punching rig still for you know these are just verbal punches now i'm just like let me ask you a question go ahead you know i'm already bruised i i have eufy cams eufy doorbell cams that uh just record on a local home station most almost everything's ubiquity of my house which is all local doesn't go to the police doesn't go to anywhere um but the ring the house came with the ring and i can't really replace it because it's like built in there and it and because the cat needs to ring the doorbell okay i have replaced dozens literally dozens of video doorbells in my life they are not it's it's that fancy one that's ethernet it's powered by ethernet and if i remove it there's a big hole in the wall where it goes you know you know what you can do with holes you can fill them in catch them yeah i'm just saying the technology it's not even hard i don't pay for a ring subscription does that help i mean i don't i don't like they they don't well if you if you at least doesn't go to their servers does it um yeah it probably does yeah everything will hit their servers unless it's recording locally to an sd thing um should i put a sign up uh at the beginning of the path saying you're a smile you're on candid camera i mean i do believe if you have any outward facing cameras you should notify people that you have outward facing cameras with some sort of sticker it used to be like some places that used to be is there a law that you have to do that like i think in some places that is the law i don't know in where petaluma or california yeah but speaking of laws you may remember that in december australia banned social media and youtube for people under 16 fortune magazine says more than more than half of the australian teens get around it with vpns face masks their parents ids um it's it's not working i guess been a teen yeah what did you think was going to happen a survey uh conducted by a uk uh suicide prevention organization the molly rose foundation uh surveyed 1050 australians age 12 to 15 more than 60 percent of teens who had social media accounts before the ban still had access to at least one of them tiktok youtube and instagram have retained more than half their users under 16 in Australia.

1:33:34I mean, it's probably making them more tech savvy. That's great. Well, that's what one of our panelists at the time said, good, you're breeding a bunch of hackers. I think it was Corey Doctorow. So this is great. Australia in 10 years is going to be the place where the best computer programmers come from Australia. Because as teenagers, they had to get around the, we do know the VPN sales have gone through the roof there. I get the thought process because I think there's a lot of data that shows that social media use too young is not good for the brains. But it's also like you have to understand teenagers and remember what you were like as a teenager.

1:34:10If you tell me no, I'm going to do it. You're especially going to do it if you don't know. Right. So you have to find some other way to make them not want to do it. Oh, it was Harper Reid. Thank you, Galia. Galia says it wasn't, it wasn't Corey. It was Harper Reed who said, yes, that's right. You're very good memory. That's right. Give him credit for that. Also, I'm sorry, Stacey. Oh no, now I can't remember. I was like, I lost it. Oh, oh, oh, it was also, you're hiding like the best stuff. I mean. It makes them want it more. It's not like you're doing age verification for like, I don't know, Excel or something excruciating.

1:34:52You must be 16 or older to use this accounting software. They wouldn't care. But Instagram, they would become great accountants. Well, I just think the internet when I was a teenager, which was like in 1994,

1:35:10I'd be like, I mean, plenty of my friends were like, why would you even want a computer? And I'm like, why would you not want to spend all of your time online? but I was weird and now that's like where everything is so it makes sense by the way Harper Reid and Amy Webb will reunite on a show in the next couple of weeks Harper is in the pan right now when he comes back Apple kind of got a little a little trouble when the FBI said yeah you know those signal chats are supposed to be encrypted uh we were able to get them by looking at the notifications we just uh and you know what even though the the person we were investigating had deleted signal the notifications were still there to which apple said oh whoops and they pushed out a fix for that this week if if you care about that our fix was don't turn on notifications if you're using signal because notifications are in plain text the fbi had been able according to 404 media to extract deleted signal messages from someone's iphone using forensic tools due to the fact that the content of the messages was displayed in a notification then stored inside the phone's database even after the messages were deleted yeah because you still have that notification history yeah by the way this is also the first time in this case that somebody was uh charged for being an antifa so there like money antifa isn't real no no the case involved a group of people setting off fireworks at the ice detention facility in alvarado texas in july it was the 4th of july come on they're Patriots, not Antifa.

1:37:08Anyway, Apple fixed it. After the news that Apple fixed it, Signal president Meredith Whitaker said, we never asked Apple to address the issue, but we don't think notifications for deleted messages should ever remain in any OS notification database. But let's face it, Signal allowed clear text notifications, which they probably shouldn't have. uh so there's a lot of blame to go around but now it's been fixed says apple i will say if you're security conscious are you having your texts or your signal messages come up as like notifications they should you should exactly you should turn that off anyway right anyone can see your phone uh when they come in that sorry like the whole story i was like i'm glad they fixed it but i'm also like why are you using this highly encrypted message from messenger and still putting the notifications on your screen some people don't think that far right that's a that's an extra step like i tifa doesn't no they they don't apparently but i i like started doing that just because i have very bad eyesight as you can see from my extremely thick glasses which means my text size is the size of the moon and anyone can read my phone if they can see my screen so do you know i've started because i'm old too and i zoom in the phone i make the text big because i'm old and i think you know first it was like oh no no no you shouldn't do that but then i thought why i'm i should be able to read it nothing wrong with it yeah but then there's a lot of programs where if you do that you can't use them because the buttons hide stuff and the buttons are hidden they don't make it a skill well they don't they need a responsive design for Yes.

1:38:53Fix your software, dude. Yeah, I used to have it like zoomed in really, really crazy zoom in. And then I was having those issues with the apps as well. So now it's just slightly bigger. But I still get made fun of by my friends who don't have crappy eyes because they're like, oh, my God. Why is your text so large? And I have an Apple Watch Ultra as well. And the text on there is also you can read everything. You can do that on this? One character at a time. yeah you can just read everything and it's like i got nothing to hide so that's just good if you live in nevada then nevada police could be tracking your phone's location and in nevada they don't need a warrant anymore nevada signed an agreement earlier this year with a company that with a company that collects location data from cell phones which means police can track a device in real time all without a warrant the software comes from a company called appropriately fog fog data science did a contract with the nevada department of public safety um the state is allowed more than 250 queries a month using the tool they don't have to get permission from a court they don't have to do anything fog calls it patterns of life you could see people's patterns of life it can help the police deduce where when people are at work where they live with whom they associate fog says oh the data is anonymous it's linked to devices not people oh well that's a relief and location data is usually anonymous we just we have no laws for it is so aggravating well the supreme court actually is hearing in a very important case about this uh and i'm not sure when this is going to come up but this is going to be a big uh case this the fbi has been doing basically fishing expeditions with a geolocation saying sending a they get a warrant for this but it's but it's still a question saying um we want from the phone company everybody who is within a mile of this uh convenience store robbery for instance so if if it doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty everybody is in this um well time to build my bunker and move underground and see no one ever again yeah it's really just your cell phone you have to get rid of i mean you'll be living in like you're publishing your location everywhere aren't you let's face it but you don't have to give up we could actually advocate still for privacy laws Because right now, like if you look at like the federal, they just announced a federal privacy law that is the biggest joke ever.

1:41:55Don't. It's terrible. Is this Marsha Blackburn's your senator's law? Yes. Marsha Blackburn. Didn't she work for Microsoft? She's basically well connected with Big Ten. She also did like the anti-net neutrality laws, too. Marsha Blackburn. Love her. But she thought, well, this is good. We need, very reasonably, we need a national, federal privacy law so that we don't have 50. But a good one. We need a good one. A good one. So we don't have 50 different laws that make it so confusing for a company. Right? Yes, I understand. I mean, yes. You said all the words. Except her law is crap and it supersedes all the good laws every other state has.

1:42:41yes is that right really terrible it is like it's basically instead of you having a right to privacy you have a right to opt out and we all know how how great people are at opting out when given that option there's there's a lot to hate about this but that is one of my favorite things to hate anyway jeff jarvis says who loves you by the way stacy we used to all work together on a show a little show we called This Week in Google. He says that Marsha Blackburn attacked him once in the Senate with poetry. I don't know what that means. I mean, April is National Poetry Month. Okay. Maybe she wrote a haiku about Jeff.

1:43:25So, Jeff Jarvis is a professor. The leaves are falling this spring water uh the supreme court will hear oral argument next week in chartre or chatry versus the united states virginia man convicted of bank robbery uh he said that the government violated his fourth amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure when it obtained his location from his cell phone records which put him in the vicinity of the robbery lower courts rejected that argument but now scotus will weigh in but at issue is something called a geofence warrant uh law enforcement officials served a geofence warrant on google not the phone company in this case it was google which said google we got location data for cell phone users who were near the bank at the time of the robbery the warrant created a geofence within 150 meters of the bank for 30 minutes before and after the robbery now as you might imagine quite a few innocent people were pulled into that net google gave law enforcement officials an initial list of accounts linked to devices that were in the area didn't give them the names so we're okay uh at the second step based on the initial list law enforcement officials asked google for information about several accounts that were in the area during a two-hour period at the third step a detective have asked for and received the names and information for three accounts, one of which was the defendant.

1:45:01And none of this did law enforcement seek a warrant. A warrant. Yeah, I wrote about this when it happened. It was back in like... So we'll watch this with interest because this is going to happen this week. Yeah.

1:45:19the government says that the plaintiff did not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in his location data both because he affirmatively opted to allow google to collect store and use it and because the warrant merely sought information that would have been visible to anyone near him at the time of the robbery so why not go find those people and ask them did you who did you see around here yeah yeah yeah the courts keep killing privacy or sorry without a privacy law what happens in the courts is they either say you've already told like you have no reasonable expectation of privacy because you're giving this data up already to get these services like consumers understand what they're doing here and then the second is that there hasn't been a documented harm and so we we see those come up in these court cases and it's very frustrating oh we do now have a photo from the associated press of marcia blackburn assaulting jeff jarvis with poetry oh no that's fake that's a fake that's deep that's a deep deep fake thank you darren we have the fastest ai guys in the uh in the west on our uh club twit discord forward all right I gotta take another break I told Stacy we'd get her out of here by before midnight Stacy my time's out no no no it's only four uh it's only five more hours here yeah you got plenty of time plenty of time uh Stacy Higginbotham from Consumer Reports Samable Samad from telemetry where he is VP of research in the wonderful Victoria Psalm well you're all wonderful I don't need to single out Victoria but senior tech reviewer at the voyage uh our show today brought to you by simply cx when you when you think about the companies actually winning in tech right now what do they have in common sure great products but more often it comes down to how they make customers feel and how seamlessly everything works of your this week in tech listener you know the future of tech isn't just what gets built it's how it's experienced.

1:47:32And that's why Microsoft launched Simply CX. Hosted by Nicole McKinley, Microsoft's global customer experience leader, each episode of Simply CX features real, no-fluff conversations with leaders from companies like CarMax, TD Bank, and T-Mobile on how AI, data, and design are reshaping customer expectations. If you need a place to start, check out their recent episode featuring Jim McDonald, Microsoft's global lead for customer advocacy about why AI agents are becoming key influencers in customer decision making and practical ways leaders can identify high impact, low risk AI starting points.

1:48:11New episodes drop every other Tuesday. Find Simply CX wherever you get your podcasts and follow the host Nicole McKinley on LinkedIn to keep the conversation going. Thank Simply CX for supporting twit i love it when podcasts support podcasts that's a nice thing to do uh let's see they did they were going to do an age checking app in the eu brussels launched an age checking app according to hackers they broke it in two minutes two minutes the eu said it's technically ready the hacker said hold my beer actually in belgium they have very good beer so maybe he just said i'll keep the beer but i'll still crack it um in fact they open sourced it which i thought was great a european commissioner press uh commission president ursula von der leyen uh said it was technically ready will soon be available to use as countries move to ban kids from social media it's fully open source everyone can check the code.

1:49:18I don't think she talks like that, but I do. And it was immediately hacked. And not by mythos, just by, you know, some guy, you know, the saga is turning into a PR disaster for Brussels, according to Politico. Security consultant Paul Moore found it would store sensitive data on a user's phone, leaving it unprotected, posted that on X. And he said, I hacked it in under two minutes. Baptiste Robert, a prominent French white hat hacker, confirmed many of the issues, said and told Politico it was possible to bypass the app's biometric authentication as well. In fact, it sounds like it's pretty terrible.

1:50:02Olivier Blasie, a cryptographic researcher, part of the French task force on digital identity, said, let's say I download the app, proved that I am over 18, and that my nephew then can take the phone, unlike my app, and use it to prove he is over 18. He's not, by the way. Did they not test this app before they released it? This is the testing. This is it right now. It's only technically ready. Anyway, this is, you know what? I'm glad this comes out because, honestly, I think a lot of these age verification systems are not, so very good. more security news according to Brian Krebs. Tyler B, the cute boy on the left, who was then a teenager dragged into court in the U.S.

1:50:53because he is a senior member of Scattered Spider, which is one of the worst social engineering ransomware groups. why did they show his like eight-year-old class picture this is so strange it's the daily mail is why and they know that it will it will sell papers i guess to show a little cute boy and then the teenage version thereof being dragged off by the policia uh uh anyway um

1:51:29scattered spider i don't think it's been beheaded but you know i'm glad they got one of them anyway really i mean every year old boy no he's not eight years old now he was uh he's the second known scattered spider member to plead guilty another uh from florida was sentenced to 10 years in prison last year see don't do the crime if you can't do the crime doesn't pay kids doesn't pay kids uh three other alleged co-conspirators uh from texas and north carolina face still face criminal charges so you know what you eventually these guys do get caught because you know why they can't keep it they can't keep it quiet they gotta boast but i don't know we got we got some people making doing big crimes that are boasting a lot about it uh that uh oh there's a there's still nothing happening that's different that's different somehow that's different if you do just because the supreme court said these could be immune yeah yeah the big enough the bigger the crime the safer you are yeah is the key the less likely you're gonna get me to get punished i guess i guess iran says uh that the us used back doors in networking equipment to disable that during the current war and chinese state media is saying you see so see so so is is the iranian equivalent of the fcc gonna ban any american american routers must be banned yes uh speaking of which stacy what do you think about that yeah oh my god so just to give you fill you in if you haven't been listening lately the fcc has banned all foreign made routers weirdly last week they said no not netgear don't know why so we we do know why they filled out they filled out their awesome questionnaire about whether or not they're going to make their routers in the u.s so i did a link to it the verge actually are are they making their routers in the u.s no they're not but no one makes their routers in the u.s no one except starlight assembles okay there's so many reasons okay here's here's one reason that this is asinine routers all routers are terrible really when it comes to cyber security because they're all using basic firmware and chips and a lot of times they're using reference design firmware like it's just terrible like they don't care about security fine by the way this is true of consumer routers and it's also i'm sad to say true of enterprise routers as we've learned cisco routers same thing you know that's what the iranians had yeah cisco used to do a lot and make their own chips and design them and everything but it's no the routers that iran said uh were uh rebooted or disconnected uh remotely were from cisco juniper ford and microtech yeah just so you know so the the fcc came in and was like hey we are going to put this on the covered list and nobody can buy any of these routers and they you you can actually see this happening with this administration so the biden administration started the covered list and they actually listed a single product or a cluster like hike hike hike vision i don't know how to say it um cameras or those hickvision cameras weren't very good they really were insecure dot way and hickvision cameras you know but when we get to the trump administration what we saw was uh all drones all all foreign drones they didn't do the research they were just like we don't like any of them everything should be made in america anyway so might as well just ban all of them.

1:55:16And look, two things can be true. One, it is not crazy to question the supply chain risks from having only China make all of your routers. Networking gear is very sensitive gear, right? It is crazy pants to say you have 18 months to figure out your entire supply chain, bring it onshore and secure it, especially with companies that don't actually invest that much insecurity. And consumers don't pay for it either. So that's how I feel about this. My concern is to get these waivers, they're only 18 months. That's not kind of the level of consistency you need to build a supply chain, right? So what did Netgear say that got them approved?

1:56:00Well, we don't know exactly what Netgear said. I actually - Did they promise that we'll make them in the United States? Is that what they - The FCC's questionnaire, they have like a little questionnaire to get the waiver. And it's basically like, one, who are you? Two, where do you make your stuff? Do you have plans to maybe one day make it in the US? Would you maybe one day make it in the US? Could you maybe one day make it in the US? Great. And that's it. There are no other cybersecurity questions on there. Oh, it's not even about cybersecurity. Are they made in the US? You could argue that making something in China could represent a cybersecurity risk.

1:56:37Yes. But you could also say, hey, do you include default passwords or encrypt? We now know that so are US-made routers. Yeah, like Consumer Reports test routers all the time. We have the biggest issue when it comes to routers is not made in China. It's like stupid stuff. That's software. Yeah, yeah. We talk about it on security now all the time. So the number one router in the U.S. was TP-Link, which is an American-made router. And part of the reason it's number one, I think it was something like - It's not American-made. It's an American company. I'm sorry. Did I say American-made? Yes. What was I thinking?

1:57:14Of course, it's made in China, like everything else. American company made in China. I think it's made in Vietnam. Oh, is it made in Vietnam? Well, it depends on what part. The software, the chips, or the firmware on the router. but there are something like 60 of all the routers in america partly because wire cutter 20 oh it's only 20 sorry leo i'm just gonna come behind oh i'm sorry a 60 of all the routers in the u.s are manufactured in china maybe that's the way to say that not necessarily tp link but they are the dominant company i mean what is it even possible to make a 100 american no no because you know the chips a lot of most of the chips are going to be coming from somewhere overseas for the foreseeable future so the fcc says a router will be considered foreign made of any major stage of the process through which the device is made including manufacturing assembly design and development occurs outside the u.s I don't know who would pass that.

1:58:17Even the Starlink router probably doesn't pass. Yeah, there's no way they're getting all American-made parts in there for the major components. Yeah. I mean, and by the way, this isn't China. This is any country. This is Vietnam. This is Taiwan. This is any country. You just can't have 100 % made in America anymore. Like, it's very difficult to, and even if you did, and like there are some clothing companies that do have like T-shirts or whatever that are 100 % made in America anymore. in america they cost more money right just because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure anymore to do anything especially for high-tech stuff just like not even high-tech stuff just not high-tech stuff we don't have that infrastructure anymore either so it's sort of just i did discover that we still apparently make almond roca candy in tacoma which i was excited about as a child who used to get excited.

1:59:12I'm eating more almond roca. That's a good thing. Seas is made in the U.S. too. I'll eat anything from Seas. But are all the ingredients sourced in the U.S.? Stop being... No, it's chocolate, man. How much cocoa do we grow here in the U.S.? Oh, yeah, you're right. Well, okay, runzas are completely made in the United States. Runzas? Do you know what a runza is? I bet Sam knows what a runza is. Uh-uh. No, it's a Midwest's favorite weird food. Let me find them. We don't have them in Michigan. There's the cheese, Runza. I actually had a box of them shipped to our... No, but I think the packaging is probably shipped from China or someplace else.

1:59:57It's very, very difficult to have anything. A lot of times when you see it made in America, they mean assembled in America. They don't mean made here. So, well, they are in Nebraska. More things were made in America. So I'll have to check out, look for Runza when I go to Omaha in June for Operation Frodo. They're basically pierogies. I love pierogies. Wait, that was a sandwich. That wasn't a pasta filled with potato, was it? Yeah, it looked more like a burger. No, well, they have burgers. So the Runza fast food store has burgers, but the official Runza thing is fully enclosed in bread. And then it's a meat filling.

2:00:39It's like an American version of the burger. Well, every culture has a pierogi. Bread. Surrounding meat. Or filling. Yeah. Every culture has a dumpling. That I will agree. Some variation of a dumpling. Yeah. Well, a pierogi is more of a dumpling, but a Runza sounds more like an empanada, which would not be. it is more like you're right or right you're right yeah or kind of a mini um calzone kind of like a calzone could we call bow like a like a guy absolutely sure this is i'm like this is really fun to think about i'm getting really hungry you know what i'm gonna do the last ad because we got to go to dinner so you hang in there we get a bunch of stupid silly stories to wrap it up to cheer everybody up how about that because we've had so many grim stories you're watching this week in tech with the blurry stacey higginbotham the crystal clear sampled salmon and the now beautiful dulcet tones of victoria's song once she turned her microphone around it it magically works it's so good placement matters placement matters absolutely our show today brought to you by rippling and i love rippling one of the hardest things about running a startup is how easy it is to get distracted by what i would call low leverage tasks right you got to do them but payroll onboarding hardware setup you know they all have to be done but they pull you away from the work that actually moves your company forward but good news rippling loves doing that stuff that's what rippling was built to solve rippling is a unified platform that lets startups run HR, payroll, IT, and finance in one system from day one.

2:02:27The Rippling startup stack replaces disconnected tools that don't sync with a fully connected platform. There's something nice about it, having it all together. With other tools, the workflows like onboarding a new hire, setting up payroll, provisioning apps, shipping a laptop, it's just a nightmare. Take days, it'll eat up your focus when you need it the most with rippling it just all happens automatically in one place that's probably why over 15 ,000 startups including cursor clay and Sierra trust rippling to scale fast without adding additional ops and the HR headcount so founders can keep building so if you or your startup want to move as quickly as you can and focus on what really matters like your product and your customers or you need rippling right now venture backed startups can get six months of rippling startup stack for free head to rippling.com slash twit sign up today that's r-i-p-p-l-i-n-g.com slash twit to sign up for six months free today focus on what you are building and leave the rest to rippling rippling.com slash twit we thank them so much for supporting this week in tech the onion is taking over info wars after all yes that is good news uh this was of course info wars was alex jones notorious um operation which was you know in in the court decision that he lost and we're glad that he lost uh to the sandy hook families uh they're waiting for that 1.3 billion judgment.

2:04:10The court slowed it down a little bit. The Onion made it the highest offer. Alex Jones, people tried to buy Infowars back, but The Onion now has it announced on Monday. The fictional Bryce P. Tetraider, CEO of Global Tetrahedron, says at long last, Infowars is ours and they are just, they can't wait. They cannot wait to fill it. Fill your browser with InfoWars merch. I think they even got the vitamins. I don't know, but I think they might have actually got the vitamins. They initially said they were going to melt them all down into one giant vitamin pill. But I don't know what their real plan is.

2:05:00But the world needs more of the onion, and I'm just glad. i think that's completely uh kismet justice it's it's always fun it's always fun pulling the onion a print version of the onion out of the mailbox every month do you i got it for my husband and it's he loves it oh i i have to subscribe they started printing them again huh yeah once a month print them and they have these hilarious ads and we send it to my kid in college and they share it around i mean tim heidecker i went to college at the time when they used to just show up on on a stack on top of the trash can yeah right it's benito uh tim heidecker is the creative director of info wars apparently the new creative director does an amazing alex jones impersonation so expect some fun parody that should be fun um okay if you're betting on calci or a poly market on these new prediction markets just stop stop uh poly market gamblers uh were betting on the temperature at paris's de gaulle airport and apparently a guy uh police are in france are investigating suspicions that a guy may have used a hairdryer to tamper with the official weather readings to make thousands of dollars yeah the temperature sensor is mounted on the perimeter of the airport where it was publicly accessible so he walked up with a dice and blew hot air on it on april 6th and april 15th temperatures at the airport's weather sensor unexpectedly spiked late in the day, peaking significantly higher than the forecast.

2:06:48Apparently somebody had bet on that and won. So this is hilarious. One trader made$21 ,000 betting that the maximum temperature would not be 18 degrees. It would be higher. There is a storied history of hacking sensors physically. There was a guy in California who like screwed over his neighbor's vineyard because he was mad at his neighbor. So he actually took a moisture sensor that was for irrigation purposes and dumped water on it. So then he just kept watering the area around that sensor just to make sure the reading. So the guy's grapes did not get enough. Anyway, this is so common. And I will say, given my love of IoT, you have to have resiliency in your sensors.

2:07:34And there's actually some really cool tech that helps like provide assurance on like is this information actually reasonable and accurate and that sort of thing and we should probably be deploying that if we're going to start betting on weird stuff like this if you've always wanted to own a 14 acre estate in beautiful marin county california just down the road at peace mill valley if you happen to have some anthropic stock i think you can make it happen uh that's uh jason snell's place no right no he does live there uh this is um this is hysterical it's on zillow this is a a venture capitalist who's you know anthropic's not public yet and he thinks he's going to score big selling his 14 acre estate but he won't take cash for it he wants 14 million dollars worth of advanced anthropic stock figuring well that's gonna pop when they uh when the anthropic goes public uh i've never heard of such a thing but i i mean it's completely legal right you can use any thing you want storm duncan selling his home for anthropic stock he says here are the benefits to an anthropic equity holder one you keep the upside in shares uh the current anthropic equity holder will continue to retain 20 of the upside in exchange uh there is a tax advantage you can defer taxes on sale of shares or reduce your taxable basis guys figured it all out dude just be normal and sell your home like a money he says this provides diversification into a solid real estate asset with significant appreciation potential okay i don't know man the the fundamental question here is if someone has that much uh anthropic stock like even though it's not public yet is their home nicer than that one i i would think if they had that 14 million worth of of that stock they probably have a nice home all right come to think well they might not they might be anthropic employees who just you know yeah like a junior to have that much like he wants 14 million in the stock yeah that's a lot 14 million shares or did he just want said 14 well the house million dollars yeah yeah oh okay so actually that's that's also not real money so that's just basically whatever their last venture equity thing and those the venture equity things are ridiculously overvalued right now By the way, for those of you who don't know, Stacey has a long history of beating me over the head with facts.

2:10:19And Brandroid has created or found a video of exactly that.

2:10:28Now, if you're listening, you won't hear anything. She's figured out finally how to get the fact hammer through AI. Is there anything it can't do? I tell you. spell strawberry properly. Although I think they fixed that. Yeah, they fixed that in the new model. But can it add two and two and not come up with five? Well, two and two could be five in some cases. If you want to buy a tractor and you don't want to buy John Deere's, you know, locked down computer stuff, there's a startup in Alberta that are selling no-tech tractors for half price. they uh they're old though they're some of them are really old case yeah yeah yeah i think i don't think they've been refurbished they must be but i don't think they've made tractors for you know 20 30 years well it's you know it's a 12 valve cummins engine yeah it's a diesel that everybody knows how to fix rebuild it you know it's fixable no no software that's the point you need a company tech to come out to do it yep uh there was one uh segment on farms.com they got 400 inquiries from in america saying can i buy that 30 year old tractor i'll take it i mean the market for used cars before like i mean i'm sure sam you you probably have facts related to this but the cost of like older cars right now without with less tech in them they're these are not $95 ,000 for the 150 horsepower model.

2:12:12If you want the 260 horsepower model, it's 146 ,000, but that's still about half what a John Deere. I was going to say, I haven't priced out a combine lately, but. And maybe. But to what you're saying, Stacey, yeah, I mean, average transaction price of used cars now is up over$30 ,000. and you know if it's very hard to find a used car a decent used car for under 20 grand anymore i'm sorry your kid is off to college because this i think they would have loved this it's a tin can phone a hundred dollar landline for kids that has gone viral kids love it because what they do they get on the line it uses wi-fi by the way obviously okay i was gonna say what do you plug it into nobody has landlines it doesn't still work when your power goes out but no it's on wi-fi it's a wi-fi phone ten dollars a month to ring and receive calls from parent approved external numbers but people like it uh in this article from bloomberg they quote a parent who said it's not uncommon when my kid comes home for the phone to start ringing within minutes there's real excitement around it we've not seen with many other additions within the home and the kid will spend hours just talking on the phone like people used to do in the old days i remember falling asleep with my friends this is seattle company by the way is it oh you know about it i love it you got it's got a cord you can twirl it's got a cord you can twirl i think you should they should offer really long extension cords you can go down the hall or your mom can pull on it a tick tock where someone was describing basically a phone that lived in your house that yeah there was and someone was like it's a landmine yeah yeah that's i felt that's what makes me feel you can't take it out of your house my my kid my kid is 30 years old now and i encountered one of those old rotary dial phones for the first time at about the age of 10 uh so this you know this would have been you know the 2005 or so had no couldn't make hydra hair out of trying to figure out how to how to make it put your finger in the hole made no sense to and then you move it in a circle yeah what like that the marvelous miss mazel had a joke about the rotary dial it was like oh your number is all nines and i was like oh that is well done yes because that was a bad number because it had to go all the way around in fact area codes were assigned to major metros like 212 for new york with low numbers they got the good ones and then over here in modesto they got the ones with the eights and the nines in it talk about redlining prego has is offering now a special uh spaghetti pasta sauce recorder deal for 20 bucks.

2:15:15It's not as bad as it sounds. Just like one of your little AI recorders? Yeah. Record your dinner conversations? Yeah, it comes with Prego sauce, some spaghetti, and a little puck-sized recorder you could put on the table. I know this sounds bad, but this, and they call it the connection keeper, you press a button, it starts recording the family conversation but the conversation then goes to story core which is a non-profit which is focused on preserving the stories of americans at the library of congress's american so that's actually kind of cool so your story core is an interesting concept yes your family conversation is part of the cultural milieu not that does anybody still does any family still sit down and free all together for dinner except for thanksgiving and holidays and stuff passover i like the concept but also my family conversations are not worth recording we're all looking at the phone now but there's nobody talking also it's just like connections well i think i think the idea is you know if it's story court you know maybe they give you some some things some topics to bring up you know yes there are cards yeah it's called a great stimulating conversation you know to generate an oral history I think it's a really neat idea this will go on sale tomorrow Monday at the prego website you know when I first heard it on your phone yeah I know you could just put the phone in the middle but this gets sent your recordings are encrypted and stored safely with no cloud storage in the story core portal via usbc and then you don't even have to share them and say unless you specifically say share them or they stay private unless you okay that's that's less creepy i think it's kind of neat it gives you some security in case you have a uncle who says something real untoward and you want to keep that in the family as he is want to do uh and they have a special offer just in time for mother's day oh they say goodness isn't that cute i don't you know i thought it was really creepy at first and then i thought how much is it 20 bucks oh nothing that includes the sauce spaghetti and the sauce not the best sauce ever i admit but why isn't the lid the recorder i thought the lid was the recorder i really did i thought this is going to be the lid is going to be the recorder wouldn't that be great but i guess you can't really get all that

2:17:46that's a cute idea i like that idea yep a better gift for mom for mother's day yes many if you're if you're tech focused ember coffee mug god my mom still you love your ember she loves her my mom loves her ember i had an ember this is the one that has a uh it has a little element it's not the element doesn't heat it up it's just got power it's induction i guess that's usb you put the mug on it and then the mug has an induction coil it heats up and then you take it off and the mug and the coffee stays hot yeah she loves it kind of like our kettle loves it yeah i just do people walk around with a cup of coffee these days i mean don't you just drink it up before she sits she sits at her desk or by her she's drinking on her couch and drinking her she will tell me she drinks coffee tea her hot toddies in the winter oh it's good for hot toddy so delightful for her our our 22 year old son lives uh lives downstairs has one he loves his ember see he found my old ember liked it so much he used it took it and used it until it burned out he bought another one yeah no i had to buy a new one for my mom so i think it's a good mother's day gift i agree with you i'm just throwing it out there well ladies and gentlemen we have completed our assigned tasks and it is only 4 37 in stacy's world so we're going to get her out of here in plenty of time thank you stacy higginbotham what are you working on these days uh secure routers no really really really i have awesome i was like working on that um sending out my annual survey for smart home companies that have security research and security researchers and vulnerability disclosure things.

2:19:39Oh, and here's my biggest deal. If you're in California, New York, or Massachusetts, your state has introduced our legislation requiring companies that make smart home devices, any connected devices, including routers, to tell you when those become end of life, when they plan to stop supporting them. Oh, that's great. Is that upfront before you buy it? it's up front when you buy it okay and six months before they declare it end of life and then once again when they have declared it end of life that should be a law it should be a law yeah and we're trying i'm trying so hard you guys but yeah if you want to call your legislator and you're in those states or if you're not in those states and you would like to see something like this you could call and be like hey you should totally introduce this it's really important and if you're in the state of california you should know that they have now expanded their opt-out for data broker program to more than 500 data brokers.

2:20:37At first, I thought this is silly. It had 85 data brokers, but it has been expanded. Privacy.ca.gov. They call it DROP. Delete request an opt-out platform. I think every state should do this. I don't know if there are other states doing it, but finally can do this in California. You do have to verify you're a Californian resident. It won't start till August. But at that point, data brokers, I don't know why they gave them 90 days to delete my data. That seems like a little generous. Quick sell it. It'd be more like 90 minutes. It should be right now. Delete it right now. What? 90 days. Well, it's going to take a while.

2:21:18We got to go into the, you know, the file cabinet. The back, you know. Yeah. It's so old. Stacey, thank you for the work you do. I really appreciate it. You're looking out for all of us. and let's make a date for the book club i think we have one do we have one uh i think it's anthony come back to me and i'll tell you anthony well actually i uh probably have it here in our if you're not a member of the club you should join the club let me just see if there's a book club get the photo time we got google ios micah's crafting corner we got the jet set with johnny jet get wwdc yeah we haven't put it in the calendar he just sent me an email saying he totally forgot until you saw me on the stream oh okay we're gonna do it it looks like the 14th or the 15th through june 4th and 5th okay yes let's do it stacy's book club and the book is do you remember what the book is a psalm for the wild built it's a cozy futuristic movie book and it's short enough that you could read it you have plenty of time no excuses stacy's book club one of the many benefits of being in our club.

2:22:2610 bucks a month gets you ad free versions of all the shows and lots of great content like that. Micah's Crafting Corner, our AI user group, which I think I want to call Leap now, the League of Extraordinary AI Practitioners. I'm workshopping it. I like the name, Leap. Anyway, if you're not a member of the club, twit.tv slash club twit, we would very much like to have you. Sam Abul Samad, he's a member of the club. Wheelbearings is his podcast at wheelbearings.media with robbie and nicole who i love actually it's one of three that i'm doing now oh what else are you doing you got the telemetry transportation daily which is a two minute um just quick hit on something most days uh and then we just launched this week a new podcast or greencars.com um where uh my friend craig cole and i are interviewing interesting people in the mobility space.

2:23:24And so the first episode went up this past Thursday. We talked with Vanessa Bhutani, who is the global head of sustainability for Volvo. We've got other ones coming up with Aaron Keating from Cox. Tomorrow, we're interviewing Ryan Decker, the head of brand and strategy for Scout Motors. We've got Kurt Kelty, the head of batteries and electric propulsion from General Motors. We got a couple of interviews coming up with people from FIA to talk about motorsports and sustainability. And also their road car mobility and sustainability and tourism. So lots of interesting stuff coming up. You can find it.

2:24:09Look for the Green Cars podcast. Yeah, that's the old header. They stopped in 2024, but they're bringing it back, boys and girls. Bringing it back. Nice. And so you can find it wherever audio podcasts can be found, or there's also a video version that's on YouTube. Nice. As you know, Stacey and I both fans of the green cars. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I will be listening. And you can also find the research work that we do at telemetry at telemetryagency.com, including some free white papers that have been published recently there. So just check it out if you need any transportation-related market research.

2:24:50Thank you, Sam. My pleasure. Victoria Song, thank you so much for joining us, Senior Reviewer at The Verge. What are you working on right now? My newsletter, Optimizer, as always. I put out something every Friday at 10 a.m. and also I am deeply researching peptides at this point in time oh you really are you weren't joking truly I'm not taking them all no um oh you're injecting your verge colleagues with it no no I take I take a Zempic under a doctor's supervision by subscription my doctor because I'm a type 2 diabetic and he said oh yeah we can prescribe this that's fine that that is worked so well legal peptide a1c is normal that is a legal peptide you did not procure it off of a gray market with dubious sourcing well and then i was talking to my hairdresser and she said yeah there's a guy on the corner and she says i'm using something called i can't remember the name and i thought yeah i don't i was it ghkcu or tb500 or was it cjc1295 it all sounds like star war droids names uh there's something called a wolverine stack it's kind of ironic that while we're banning uh chinese routers the uh head of the uh uh fda is uh recommending chinese peptides so you know they're better than vaccines we really don't we don't know what's in those things they're just short amino acid chains that's all a peptide is and it's like some of them are good some of them are fine some of them are inactive just don't get the ones off of tiktok that's all I ask yes because we don't know what's in those don't know what's in those don't and I love your piece which you just published I don't think Gwyneth Paltrow knows what a peptide is.

2:26:56I really don't know. I know she's heard of them. And I know she's really into ejectables. Oh, she is? Oh, dear. She's a... And IV drips. Yeah, there's a clip in there where she's just like, I love IV drips. And it's sort of just like, okay. But you also sell this moisturizer called the Youth Boost NAD Plus Peptide Rich Cream, which would make you think there's NAD plus and it's full of rich peptides, except NAD plus is not a peptide. It is a coenzyme and there's only one peptide in there. And it's the last ingredient in her skin, in her, in her moisturizer. And usually ingredients are listed by concentration.

2:27:40So it's not very rich in peptides. So that's why I was like, okay, no, no, you didn't misunderstood. She's getting rich. It's not the peptides that are rich. There we go. it's a big difference you had some some problems with the punctuation in that head peptide i'm rich cream it's delicious just don't eat it uh that's hysterical that's hysterical uh anyway i look forward to reading that and of course subscribing to your lovely newsletter which everyone else should as well because you are optimum you have been hi benito hi visit from benito there Say hi, Benito. Hey, Benito. You punched the wrong button.

2:28:31The optimizer. I will subscribe. You know, I get so many newsletters. I just now had my AI go through my newsletter pile because I do put everything in a folder and surface stuff I'd be interested in. And actually, it's amazing. And it's done very well. So now I don't mind subscribing to more newsletters because I could finally find something in there. Well, we have fun and optimizer. Usually it's my weekly existential crisis as I research things. You're wonderful. I love your existential crisis. This is good stuff. You are debunking a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I really liked your story on the FDA and rather changing the wellness industry, pushing to change some of the definitions or regulations around, you know, what's a medical device and what's a wellness device and i was like dang we should be honest because we're not getting good recommendations from the cdc anymore the fda anymore and we don't know who we can trust every week rfk says something and i just basically scream into a pillow because it's just sort of like nuts so i feel about brendan carr he doesn't he doesn't bernie sanders do you believe in germ theory do you believe in germ theory no no i don't believe in germs what wait a minute what they don't you're you're the head i mean you're the head of human service and you don't believe in yeah germ theory what he he drinks raw milk that's that's that'll tell you something yeah and he has a little and he's of the age where i feel like that could be really harmful if it goes bad so maybe he already had a brain worm that ate part of his brain so there's an explanation he says he believes in miasma theory which is first of all he doesn't believe in miasma theory he thinks he believes in miasma theory that's the theory that bad air makes you sick like from swamps that's what happens when my dog farts at night that's what happens that's miasma yes that will make you sick but let me tell you it really does ferments uh thank you victoria so wonderful to have you on the show uh thank you sam thank you stacy thanks to all of you for watching we appreciate it we do twit every sunday afternoon two to five p.m pacific that's five to eight eastern that's 2100 utc the live streams are up on every platform if you're in the club you could watch in the discord of course but there's also youtube twitch x facebook LinkedIn and kick all of them and we chat with you and all of them too which is nice after the fact on demand versions of the show are available on our website there's audio and video of course the video is on YouTube as well we have a dedicated channel for that but the best way probably is to subscribe in your favorite podcast client that way you'll get it automatically you don't have to think about it and you can enjoy it at your leisure thanks to our producer Benito Gonzalez us thanks to kevin king our editor thanks to you for being here and we will see you next time and as i have said now we are now 20 officially 21 years old we turned twit turned 21 on april 17th so as i have said for the last 21 years thank you for being here we'll see you next time and another twit is in the can bye-bye

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2:32:42This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.