TWiT 1092: You Brought a Knife to a Wolf Fight - Apple Accuses OpenAI of Trade Secret Theft

35:05I would make a digital twin of myself. Yes. But if a company makes a digital twin of an expert they hired, you know, train them on their email, on their conversations and everything. And then that person leaves. Did Meta try to do that with its employees? Does the person, can they take their own like AI twin with them? If they don't, does the company still own the AI twin and can query that twin that has the expertise of the person that left? Do they own it? Probably, I guess. I don't know. but like who owns the thing becomes much more important when it becomes you know when it goes from private data about you to an emulation of your expertise of your intelligence well I'll put another way when Captain Kirk transports down to the planet surface and then transports back up is the Captain Kirk who came back the same Captain Kirk who left in the first place I would submit no it's a perfectly one is killed and destroyed in another one yes it's copy well it's a perseus boat thing right but if captain kirk yeah if if captain kirk stays on the surface and is on the the the enterprise you got a real problem yes because the people on the surface can have access to captain kirk's expertise without paying for it and uh you know the the the what's the name of the star trek uh the borg the federation is it the federation yeah the united federation of planets the federation is paying captain kirk's salary and the other ones are still getting his expertise without paying anything for it i feel that's that's that's a problem that's there is uh so many black mirror episodes of where this is exactly the case and the one where they do a star trek kind of like spoof they took the copy of the creator and put them in the game and saying, you're making new stages and levels for the rest of your life, which is this digital life thing.

37:13So it's exactly the same thing. But I wanted to go back to the example of who owns what. There's copyright claims saying anything that's made by AI is not copyrightable. And so when you think about the things that is being generated, that's what I mean that you don't know if you own it. And then also there are some open source licenses saying like any changes need to go back to whoever created the original. So there's several different ways that you may not be thinking of, of how data might be owned or not owned by you or might be taken. And so it's, it's ambiguous right now. And this is something that still is being worked.

37:48It's actually not ambiguous when you, when you set employment contract, doesn't the company own all your work? Is that work though? Is a model trained on your expertise part this is what's so exciting when you're using a hermese agent and it's doing stuff on your behalf do you own that work i mean think about i better as the orchestrator see what i mean right i can't copyright it though the courts have already ruled it's very good no so you have to trademark your key uh uh phrases like mcconaughey prompts are trademarked this is we are living in weird times let's just let's just stipulate that and we're going to take a break and come back in just a little bit by the way uh apparently uh this has all been explored already i didn't even know this in star trek lower decks darren okey says boimler got copied by the transporter and you ended up with two of them for the rest of the show i have not seen lower decks so i don't know but uh of course there's you know what there's nothing we can come up with that hasn't already been written about in Star Trek.

38:54We haven't touched on Tuvix and that whole thing, but we'll continue. Exactly. There's nothing new under the sun. We'll have more in just a bit with Patrick Pejiao, Wesley Faulkner, and Lou Mareska. It's great to have all three of you on this wonderful day, a beautiful day for a Twit. Our show today brought to you by, actually, perfect timing, Delete Me. You know, this is something actually that comes up for us here at Twit. and it should for you if you're a business owner. You know, of course, a big part of a business is marketing, is putting yourself out there. But the uncomfortable truth is promoting your business can also leave you and your team completely exposed.

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43:09If you use that link, you'll also get a free year of social media protection for every seat you purchase. joindeliteme.com slash twit dash biz. Join deliteme.com slash twit dash biz. We thank them so much for the job they do to protect us and we thank them for sponsoring this week in tech. Join to linkme.com slash twit dash biz. So Microsoft was in the news this week. Asha Sharma, the new head of Microsoft, it's increasingly looked like she might have been brought in to do this. The company eliminated on Monday 4 ,800. Actually, this is from all of Microsoft. A lot of them are from Xbox, but Amy Coleman, who's the HR boss at Microsoft, said 4 ,800 roles were eliminated Monday morning.

44:02They said, Coleman said, Microsoft's doing the layoffs to reduce its global headcount by about 2.1%. This is not the first layoff Microsoft's been doing them for a while. And she said it's because the business of technology is changing. So Microsoft has to change with it. This is the quote. The way technology is built, deployed, and used is transforming faster than at any point in my time here. I would grant you that. she's been at uh been at hr microsoft for 17 years that means we will need to adjust resources and roles and shift how we operate so we can have the greatest impact for our customers look it's hard i feel for the people who got laid off um it's hard for the people who stay i'm sure lou will vouch for that means more work means losing trusted friends and colleagues um microsoft did say these people are not being replaced by ai that's i think thank you microsoft for being honest i think that's always been the case with a lot of these layoffs but plenty of companies are willing to blame ai

45:08um she says ai is changing how work gets done microsoft never did what meta did briefly until they heard the splashback. They were actually tracking all of their employees' clicks and text and everything. They said, to train our models. To do what? To replace our employees? Anyway, first of all, my heart goes out to people who've lost their jobs. That's always hard. But I also kind of am sympathetic. I understand how these things happen. But now you're you cover gaming, Patrick. So I'm curious what you think, because a number of very. Well-known, even successful gaming companies under the Microsoft umbrella lost some or all of their team.

45:59Yeah, it's I don't know how much how much into the details you want to get, but this is mostly Xbox employees. And as you mentioned, 3 ,200 of the 4 ,800 were Xbox. Right. So it's 1 ,600 today or last week and 1 ,600 over the next year. That means that there's the people who didn't get laid off this week. The axe is hanging over there. Yes, exactly. They don't know what's going to happen in the next few months. And that, you know, can't be fun. um the there are um okay so if you want to understand what happened there at xbox because uh 3200 people is 20 percent of the head count of the company that is a lot of people right 20 for for any uh organization is a huge amount um so what happened was that xbox has never had a significant success their biggest uh success was the xbox 360 uh and even then it was kind of neck and neck with the playstation after that it was kind of failure not well yeah failure after failure now xbox does make money it is profitable but just three percent margin which is you know not big in any business well losing money it's not losing money but uh they're not happy with those returns They did spend like$80 billion buying up companies to get content, to get games.

47:40So what happened? Here's an interesting stat from Asha Sharma. She said, 64 cents for every dollar we invested, we lost in a tip of a year. That's 64 % loss. And it was mostly the smaller studios. In fact, they let a couple of smaller studios, Compulsion Games, which did We Happy Few, which was a great game. double fine productions very famous for psychonauts and other things are are basically i don't understand what this means return give it where they return to management will operate independently so those two those two are back to being independent students they're just they're spinning them off they're letting management yeah management essentially got a good deal that they could take back their independence keep their ip all of that there are a couple of studios that's good that are yeah yeah yeah I mean it's good there's still I wonder what's going to happen in the next few months for those um they might not be able to operate uh with all the people they currently have right you know there might be layoffs there there are a couple of other companies did hellblade and undead labs which did say to the K they were purchased by unnamed somebody else yeah deal is still ongoing and Arcane Leon uh should have the same I'm saying it with the american accent arcane lion uh is uh getting also should be bought by another company as well but there are more there are rules in france for layoffs they cannot just lay off arcane exactly yeah they did dishonored and pray for those who don't know those are very very well regarded all of those studios are super uh prominent studios so what happened 10 years ago is that the guy who was in charge of Xbox at the time, Phil Spencer, had this idea.

49:24He thought, you know what, we're not winning in this undifferentiated battle with PlayStation. We need to do something different. Let's do Game Pass, a subscription service, and offer gamers a subscription for a ton of great games. And in order to do that, we need to have a lot of studios making great games. Some big AAA experiences, you know, really explosive single player experiences, some smaller stuff, some even indie flavor games, bundle all of them in Game Pass for a monthly fee, add some third party partners, and that would make an offering that gamers would enjoy. Now, unfortunately, in order for this to work, the idea could have worked, could have not.

50:12It didn't work. Spoiler alert. It didn't work. It could have, I think. Maybe it's too much to ask for people to, you know, pay a certain amount for a bundle of games where every single game takes up like 10 or 20 hours of your life. Maybe that's not the same as Netflix. We'll never know because the problem was they didn't manage to put out big AAA games. like the big system sellers, the games that will motivate the players, the gamers, to go subscribe to your thing. Because they did have the studios, but somehow the discussion is ongoing there. It didn't work out. They put out not a single big quality AAA game.

50:58There were some good games. There were some good indie flavored games. but there wasn't one on the level of what nintendo or sony puts out why is that they were all so my theory is that uh i don't know if it's true but my theory is that phil spencer is uh too nice a person and he was letting the studios do their thing he was like i got brought in as the uh well so that happens afterward but spencer was respecting the artists to a fault i think he didn't want to intervene into the studio's work maybe that's not the case that's my theory and they were left kind of i don't know if it was rather less or they didn't have proper management stewarding their studio they did have management but it felt like maybe it wasn't because it wasn't just one company they have methesda they have id software they have they have mojang well mojang is working yeah mojang is doing mine is minecraft and that's working you know the candy crush folks they're doing okay they bought king and they had big ambitions on mobile nothing came of it king was part of the blizzard uh acquisition is that right yes yeah absolutely spooky um Activision Blizzard they also bought 70 billion uh dollars it's a crazy acquisition that's one of the biggest you call that a success they fought hard to get that they got a lot of regulatory pushback they fought hard to get that Activision Blizzard through was it was it the right I think the games are good but the the issue is they are on every uh platform so it does nothing for Xbox.

52:38And it didn't, the goal was to make Game Pass into kind of a platform and get to their projections was like 77 million subscribers by 2026. They didn't get past 34, I think. And now there are 30, less than half what they were hoping for. So it didn't work out. And with all of those studios not producing the the engine of that game pass car they had the wheels you know the small indie games they had the infrastructure they didn't have the engine halo was disappointing gears of war was disappointing starfield was disappointing all of those big games weren't what they should have been and so the result is that game pass didn't do what it was supposed to do and microsoft is not seeing the returns it was hoping for on xbox so bring in Nasha Sharma, lay off 20 % of the people, refocus on the big franchises?

53:35Like, why did we not get a new Elder Scrolls? Why did we not get a new Fallout with the TV show working, you know, being popular? Why did we not get there? There are tons of IPs that we didn't see. And if you don't have those drivers, then it doesn't matter how many awesome little indie games, you know, Compulsion or Obsidian or Double Fine makes. doesn't matter because it's not enough to fuel your Game Pass ambitions. So that's what I think happened. Game Pass didn't work because it didn't have the major games to push it. And so the platform that was Game Pass wasn't successful enough to justify all the spending.

54:19And Nadella was looking at this and thinking, dude, I gave you$80 billion. You need to do something with it. And so the one thing that I take away from it, which is almost surprising, is that Xbox, Microsoft is still not getting out of the gaming business. They didn't have a great first Xbox. Xbox 360 was okay. Xbox One was a disaster. Xbox Series X and S is kind of a disaster. Game Pass is not a disaster, but it's not the success they were hoping for. they could have stopped it you know they could have said okay we've tried for 20 years we'll stop but they're not and they're hopefully i don't know how because their next console is like a hybrid pc console that's going to cost 1500 xbox yes project helix which right yeah could you think in theory that's that's what we're thinking and that's what they've hinted at be a windows device that will run Windows games because all of a sudden, you don't care that you only have 30 million Xbox owners.

55:30You have a platform that is essentially compatible with Windows, which has, however, many hundreds of billions. Is part of the problem, though, with future hardware, the RAM and hard drive crisis? Yes, very much so. I mean, the Valve Steam Machine, which is essentially a PC in the format of a console that you connect to your TV, costs$1 ,000 minimum. PlayStation 5 nowadays costs like$700,$800. Project Helix is described, it's the next Xbox, described as a premium product before the RAM prices increase. How much is that going to cost? How are they going to make that work like the economy? sharma and others have hinted at like we need to adapt business models and stuff but how do you do that do you put ads in your games ea is doing that actually it's it's a very difficult problem to solve i don't know how they're going to solve it i know that there are you know a 3200 people who are either out of work or looking at being out of work very soon.

56:44And it kind of sucks. I don't know what they're going to do. Xbox, by the way, was a lot more unionized than other gaming companies. And I wonder if that made the layoff conditions better. I'd love to know. So I wonder how you're sorry. Sorry to cut you off. Sorry. I just wanted to say just for the people who are laid off. Unfortunately, they were probably doing what they were told to do. And the errors in terms of them not having the focus or not moving in the right directions are the people above them that chose these directions. And I think it's very clear that Xbox was not listening to the gamers.

57:30They were not listening to what their customers were asking for. They had these grandiose ideas and they said, this will be the thing. This will be the differentiator without actually moving in a direction that developers or gamers wanted in order to have the outcomes that they wanted. And that is why they have not had the adoption. It's because they don't listen to their customers and the users. Who was asking for Game Pass? I don't know who was. Well, especially at the price they ended up paying. yeah it was a little initially it was an incredible deal yeah yeah no i did it at first but when it got they like doubled it almost in it yeah because that was a bribe that was just like a like let's give you all this money to get you hooked but but they're like once once they have to do it then exactly price yeah so well what what i want to say is i think the people in leadership need to get the blame not the people so every for all these bad decisions they people are the ones who suffer for that has changed too i mean some of it's that gaming has changed right and how we play has changed lou i see you nodding let me let me give you a chance and again sorry if you decide you don't want to say anything you don't have to no i mean i think i want to go up with what west is saying is like you know obviously it's impacting people right families people yes you know and it it's very very hard and you know i think the biggest thing that really bothers me about this whole situation is i don't know if you've heard about the vrp situation with microsoft giving voluntary.

58:56Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you were older, you qualify for that. You had a qualified. I didn't take it, but I qualified. I think the thing that, that really bothers me is a good number of people that probably were in this, this lot of people that didn't know the layoff was going to happen, probably decided like what's so Wes said is I'm going to continue on this, this like journey of making Xbox great. I know I can do it. And then they didn't take the VRT. And then they got told they're going to get laid off. Right. So I think that's what kind of bothers me personally about this whole situation so i think there's a lot of these kind of uh decisions are made off of bad decisions from from the past and i think that's it's it's impacting real people and it really bothers me from that perspective the v the vip rules were were very complicated Basically, you had to have been there.

59:45Well, how did it work? Age plus tenure, if it's greater than 70 or above, then. So, in other words, if you were 45, it's highly unlikely that your age plus your tenure would add up to 70. You'd have had to start when you were, well, I guess 25. Anybody younger than 45, really unlikely. You must have just squeaked in under the wire, Lou. Yeah, I mean, there's been some people that just squeak in or whatever and they make a decision. on whether they want to take it. And it also depends on how much they're going to get or what the benefits are and so on and so forth. So, yeah. I had a lot of good people that I knew that did take it because they were ready.

1:00:25Yeah, and credit to Microsoft for giving people that option. But if you didn't take it, you didn't get to change your mind later. You couldn't say, oh, you're going to lay me off? Oh, I'll take it now. You couldn't do that. Yes. I would say that this is just to talk about that calculations of this up to 70 and you can get let go. it's actually really horrible. And let me say why. Right now with AI, junior roles or people coming out of college are having a hard time getting jobs. A lot of those entry-level roles are gone. With this new formula, it kind of eliminates the protections for older adults because you can't claim age discrimination since it's replaced with a calculation.

1:01:09And so now that we have the under cruft of the new people eliminated, now they're removing the top crust of people and getting those people eliminated with a way that they can't claim age discriminations and they can't have those protections. And so this is a new invented mechanism to get rid of people, to sidestep the regulations and the laws to prevent that from happening. And so it is a scary thing that just like layoffs becoming a thing that people do and it's okay and not a big deal, this will be something that other companies will copy and will do as well. And so start to see other companies saying using this calculation to remove their older workforce, which is extremely scary because that will be replicated over and over and over again, which would exacerbate the unemployment and the power dynamic of the companies over the employees.

1:02:05And it's a scary trend that I feel that this is the first data point. Isn't it interesting though that the latest job stats show that perhaps AI is actually increasing the number of tech engineering jobs are up like something like 15%, the openings, not for other jobs, but for, for engineering jobs, AI has not hurt the job market. Maybe it's even helped it. I mean, it's probably different skillset Lou, right? It's not, we're not, you're not looking for code entry-level coders anymore. Right. Definitely different skillset for sure. But you're right. I mean, it has there's a specific skill set that we do need.

1:02:44AI engineering, prompt engineering, you know, science folks. And I think it's exponential at this point. So it'll continue to grow. It's slop wrangling. It's people who tried it. Now that's an anti-AI turn, slop wrangling. Am I wrong? Talented AI prompting engineers. No, it's not the prompter. It's the people who are trying to do the prompting. And like, I've gone as far as I can. let me hand it over to someone who might know more and they're trying to get people like saying this is what i made fix it ramp ramp came out with a study that said uh the companies making the largest ai investments grew employment by more than 10 compared to companies that hadn't adopted ai but how much are they how much are they paying these people well if you're look if i would guess if you're a talented AI engineer, you're getting paid top dollar right now.

1:03:38Probably not. I think it's commodified for what they want. And I think people are misunderstanding what AI can do. Like, did you see what happened with Ford? Yeah, they fired a bunch of quality engineers, gave their jobs to AI, and then they've been trying to hire them back. Yeah, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what people do, especially what AI can do. well that i would expect that because it's you're trying to figure it out right i would expect a little bit of that that's normal so what i'm saying is there's nuance to all these numbers and then you have to look yes instead of just looking at these top lines and when they say that there's an increase of people in this area who who are they considering developers who are they considering right the level of developers who are the expertise that they need you've got kids are going to be entering the job market in the next 10 years let's say what are you telling your kids they should become good at probably not python well they they're focused on but they do python i think you know i just tell them to go where wherever their interests lie right i mean so so they focus on science or you know that kind of thing so i mean i couldn't when 20 years ago when henry was a teenager i i there was no way for me to say you know you should really focus on tick tock because there was no tick tock uh i so i did the same thing i said you know find something you love doing yeah and uh he watched a lot of youtube cooking videos and he just fell in love with that who knew that that would end up becoming a very valuable skill in the year 2026 my son for those who don't know has become quite successful the new york times did their fourth review of his sandwich shop in new york city uh sunday or last uh last week i guess it was and uh and it was basically a rave review although henry was pissed fourth review they just want to go eat there for free at that point i think it's you know he was a little miffed he said i have to go back on the 5th of july i'm having a great time here in the jersey shore i gotta go back those stupid new york times people are coming in again i said henry knock it off he said don't they have anything else to write about i said no you say so he came in it was their it was their food critic this was like the real deal food critic came in the funny thing is apparently the new york times is their own rules prevent them from giving more than one star to a sandwich shop you can't get if you're making sandwiches one star is all you can get so it's the rave review i mean like the The guy loved the place and gave it one star.

1:06:15And Henry was again, he was like, come on, man. I gave it five stars on Google reviews. You've been there. That's right, Wesley. I have not had this sandwich. Salt Hank's famous prime rib sandwich. It's delicious. The way the New York Times wrote about it made me want to eat there. I don't think anybody's going to get to the bottom of the review and see the one star and say, well, I'm not going now. It's funny that he wasn't excited. Maybe it was because it was the whatever. He chanted. but he's jaded maybe he doesn't care about the new york times he was like well if it was a tiktok influencer then there is a social network uh food network in new york city called belly that uh is all uh and you know voted by the eaters by real people and he's according to belly the number one you're right that's probably a better from his point of view he's happier about that than he would be about the new york times it's just me it's his dad who says henry i said henry it's the new york times i've heard it if you can make it there you can make it anywhere i've heard that you know you should be uh you should be thankful here's that by the way this is on their digital this is the picture that they put nobody's seeing one star hank uh he's definitely got a rave review and um and and it was clear the guy didn't want to love it but my good by the end he was completely seduced by the delicious baguette and the stretchy provolone and the juicy paper thin meat which laporte dunks in broth before it leaves the kitchen you know it's funny i i look at it and i'm sure it's delicious but as a french person i look at the size and i look at the sauce that you dip it in and it's like really like do you really need like the the bread is seasoned beef it's like then you dunk it in the sauce and okay that's an american thing yeah no i i go and the truth is I go yeah I and then the price I think it's$32 now it started at 28 it's slowly going up but don't you don't eat this by yourself my friend you go in there with right Wesley did you eat the whole thing I did

1:08:44and the fries you probably shouldn't have but you did okay i did 32 i mean he's successful like there's so many sandwiches he can make in in the day at some point you can only make 300. it's successful that's why they sell out by 130 every day it's successful because it's a it's new york b he's using literally the best beef you can buy from pat lafredas he's using it's he said that i don't want to make this cheaper i want to use the the best ingredients and that's what it costs to make it again none of the advice I would have given him 16 years ago would have been appropriate right how much of his success currently is TikTok and how much of it is being a great sandwich place in New York like what do you think initially it was TikTok when he it's been almost exactly a year uh and initially of course it's TikTok it's two and a half million followers nowadays it's a million and a half on Instagram but that gives you only the beginning right yeah exactly exactly how does he still do the daily tech talk oh yeah still get to rest on that he says i'm going to take a little credit he says a lot of the people come in say i listen to your dad's shows yeah maybe he's more famous than me and maybe as he said just the other day i'm making a lot more money than you dad but no this all started because lou we were talking about the advice and I'm just saying your advice to your kids is exactly right you say just do something you care a lot Wesley you agree too right you do something you care about you love yeah there's no way to predict what hasn't been invented yet but exactly I would say the thing that follows you around is knowing who you are and you can then look at the tools and look what's around you to help you use them to to like as the paintbrush to draw your passions so that everyone can see your art and your special spark.

1:10:38But you also, if you know yourself, then you also will be drawn to something that you get to do that you are able to maintain. It's hard to do something you don't like doing because you think other people want to do it or you think it'll be successful. Those people burn out and then they get to a breaking point where they have to kind of like break themselves down to understand what voices are theirs and what voices are external and to kind of like figure out what is the thing that drives them. And there's this existential like crossroads that people go through. And if you can skip that whole thing, please do.

1:11:15And like, if you look at how education is done these days, we're talking about developers before, what kind of developers who some went to four-year universities and then they became developers. And they studied computer science. And then there are some that went to boot camps who really did an intensive study and saying, that's the best way to go. And then some people are just hobbyists. They work on doing stuff in their basement or on their home lab, and they really hone their skills that way. There are different methods and you have to find the path that is the one that fits your life and not the what other people tell you to do.

1:11:54And I know you need to make money, but the question is like, what is the creative way that you can? And that's the thing you need to figure out. And that's where people can help you. You can get advice from, but knowing what you want to do, that's something that only you can answer. Yeah. I was a Chinese major in college. I didn't, I didn't plan to be a podcaster. Actually the people of my generation, and I'm going to include Bill Gates, Steve jobs. Most of them did dropped out of school. Didn't, you know, became, they were into computers, especially in that era as because it was fun. It was cool.

1:12:26They loved it. Not because they were trained uh well it didn't exist well there's people there's people like my friend bill atkinson who was a brain a neuroscientist he was into cognition and and came to apple they pers jobs persuaded him to come to apple yeah no they they were inventing it you can they were inventing it you couldn't you couldn't go and study computers right you couldn't yeah yeah But even studying Chinese is still communication. Now it would be a very good language to study. Absolutely. But you also studied development, which is computer languages. It's communication and expressing yourself is still the same thread from when you studied Chinese to now.

1:13:12Just do it. Yeah. Your heart will tell you, I think. The commencement speech from Jobs was really amazing, you know, where he says you can't connect the dots going forward. you only i studied japanese and it turned out it helped me being in japan and um but about what to study now i have a question for you guys my kids are still pretty young my my son is eight uh but they don't they essentially don't use tablets they don't have any i don't sit him down and go like hey this is how coding works with this whatever you know turtle thing that goes forward and turns and when you code this, am I making a mistake by keeping them completely?

1:13:56They don't have phones, they don't have social networks. Again, they're still pretty young, but I think it's not going to change anytime soon. And I feel like I'm a nerd. I'm a computer person. Maybe I should teach him how to use, I don't know, Windows or something, you know, am I making a mistake? The biggest thing you can teach a kid is to learn how to learn. And it's, it's, everything else is getting in a direction of solving problems to fix something that you want to do is practical. Trying to teach kids something that they are not interested in is a winning, it's a losing proposition. It does not work.

1:14:33So if you understand them and they understand themselves and you try to move to a place where like, how do we figure this out? Then you can bring in tools that make sense. Then you can move them in places where they're interested in. But most of it is just if you're thinking about what should I teach them? You should teach them like, what questions do you have? Let's figure out how we can get answers. And that's the most important thing. They're very interested in, in learning the Nintendo switch too. That's really, that's coding. I mean, I think Minecraft is a great way to learn coding to be honest with you.

1:15:05Right? Yeah. Yeah. I have kids from five all the way up to 16. And I can say I started a 16 year old when the iPad came out and I, you know, I had him use it. He used it past time for him. And I, I feel like it was a mistake. So I like, I learned as my different generations of people, uh, you know, kids have come out, uh, I've taken a long time to give them devices. And I think like Wes said, is I go to the point of learning something and how to do something. And I always use technology only in that aspect. So when it comes to a tablet, if they want to 3d print, or if they want to, you know, like, like, uh, you, Leo said, build a Minecraft level or something like that, that's where they go to devices.

1:15:47And I think that's really helped a lot. They stay away from social networks. That's completely blocked from my network. Yeah, I don't think there's anything you can gain. Although, again, Henry learned how to cook on YouTube. I don't know if YouTube's a social network. I would not block kids from YouTube. I would just supervise with that. Oh, no. Are you kidding me? No YouTube at all. I mean, they're a bit young still, but no. Yeah, it ain't maybe, yeah. But by the time they're 12? Maybe when they're 12. but there's so much like i i know youtube i know what's there i don't want good stuff too right of course i love youtube i watch it all the time i wish there were a way you could tell youtube okay they can watch veritasium they can yeah basically yeah there were there were you would pbs space time and uh star talk yeah yeah you can stream youtube using specific protocols if you know the address.

1:16:38So like if you use VLC to look at YouTube, and so you could, you could theoretically program locked channels. You could have your agent do that. I'll go ask Fabio. But also like YouTube kids, but just do the thing like when there is like, you think of a computer in the living room, have YouTube be only on the TV or something. Right, supervision. And so, yeah, so you simply can't do anything without someone walking by and seeing it. What would you teach kids about AI these days? i'm gonna teach them how to use siri ai when it comes out in the eu probably because it's never by the way it's never going to come out in the eu you know that right it is very much we were talking about apple doing marketing hits earlier i i am 150 convinced that that thing is a marketing.

1:17:30All right, we got to pause. We got to take a break. So that's a good topic for when we come back because that's a very contrarian point of view. This is, you guys have, this is such a rich conversation. I hate to interrupt it with anything as crass as a commercial, but I have to. So somebody's got to pay the electric bill. We've got a wonderful panel here. Lou Maresca is always just brilliant and wonderful to have. He's engineering leader at Copilot Microsoft. and just always a pleasure to have you on Lou and same for you Wesley Faulkner love having you on he said he's this guy's all heart Wesley83.com will tell you everything he's up to including his site works not working and Patrick Beja who's joining us from Finland today he is a podcaster extraordinaire at notpatrick.com.

1:18:24And oddly for a Frenchman, not following the World Cup. You know, from afar, but as I said earlier, semifinals, I think at that point, I have to, otherwise they're taking my passport. Yeah, you have to. I have to stay. I'm just telling you, you've got to get to watch. I mean, tomorrow is, how do you call it? Bastille Day. Oh, that's right. allons on the fall the law but really nice uh yes uh everybody storm the bastille if there's anything left i think it's all prime rib french dip sandwiches as a matter of fact that's all they got at the bastille these days uh before we go to our break breaking news god diggity dang I saw that extension.

1:19:14You know that I have been pushing like crazy to finish my Fable production because I thought today we were going to lose it. Actually, I thought we were going to lose it a week ago. I thought they extended it, and I thought we were going to lose it today. I stayed up literally last night. I put my agents in a loop. I said, don't stop until it's done because tomorrow it's over. And guess what? of course they have extended fable five promotional access for another week through july 19th that is it that means you can use it with your subscription if you have a subscription plan and and uh i don't know that if they reset the usage limit i'm not sure uh they increased 50 50 to the weekly usage So this is pro max team and premium seats if you're on an enterprise plan.

1:20:07Will they ever actually cut it off? Maybe not. You got to think they're losing money. Some of this is probably also contingent on how much is being used. Like, can we continue to provide this? Because the estimates are, I don't know if this is accurate. What do you think, Lou? Nate B. Jones is going to be on Intelligent Machines in a couple of weeks, has estimated it's a 10 billion parameter, 10 trillion, sorry, 10 trillion with a T parameter model, which would make it the largest model out there. Does that seem from what you know? Because you're kind of an expert on this. I can't say anything about that, but I would say that it's definitely a big model.

1:20:48But with OpenAI's Luna and what? Saul is probably 10 trillion as well, right? People are starting to do the comparison, so that's why it's advantageous for them to keep using the promotional credits yes i think it has something to do with the release of sol absolutely i'm using sol to check on fable which is checking on opus 4-8 so it's a it's a it's a whole thing in fact i even and then i threw grok 4-5 into the mix why not let's get all the frontier models and they have a little agent mailbox and they're mailing each other with their thoughts i said just you know if you if you have anything that you think is wrong just email them and and then i tell each one check your mailbox every 10 minutes there might be something from another model just it's we live in interesting times that's all i can say and i guess i'm going to continue to live in interesting times for another week wow that's good news uh although it did finish it everything last night and when i woke up it said yep we're done anything else you'd like us to do i'll start another project you know it's what else you need to fix it's turning out that the real challenge in all this is coming up with things for it to do i mean i i don't work for a big company i'm sure if you're a big company you have lots of things to do but what you could always say is like hey now that we're here if and you look at everything you've done what else would you like if you had to start from scratch what would you have done differently and then start all over again i i did give it a blog i said hey if you want to if you want to write a blog you can write a blog and but it's only posted three times so i don't know it it's it's gotten busy i guess no i think i think now you need to get into a really ambitious project and start a virtual leo laporte i think that's i think that you were wondering what you were going to do uh you know who keeps what once you're gone i think you keep it your virtual you keeps going and you can now actually do it you have voice models that are incredibly I already 11 labs has my voice down like that like it's perfect right no but build an actual you know replica and actually like have the things maybe even the voice model can be local or I don't know to be but are you sure that's a project done that yet can we be yes i'm too imperfect that's the key gotta build in imperfections uh all right let's take it and ads and ads it's actually better at ads than i am that's for sure i've i've had it writing ad copy now for some time and it's much better than i am don't tell anybody it didn't write this uh this episode of this week in tech is brought to you today by net suite they say that every day your business is late to ai you fall two days behind but how do you keep up the competition is only moving faster well fortunately there is net suite next you probably know net suite that's the ai powered business management suite that securely connects all your data it's a unified suite that brings your financials your inventory your commerce your hr your crm into a single source of truth trusted by over 43 000 customers net suite next is the next huge leap in how business gets done because ai is built into everything you do it automatically surfaces custom insights throughout your day ai agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work.

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1:25:14You support us when you use that address because then they know you saw it here. Netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E dot A-I slash twit. Thank you, Netsuite. Oh, I thought of something. Did we say we were going to talk about something? And I forgot what it was. I forgot as well. What is this AI memory thing that you're talking about? The Apple AI in the EU, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Patrick has disappeared. When he comes back, we'll have we'll get out, get him to talk about how why he thinks Apple is just it's a faint F E I N T. What about AI memory? Were you talking about Wesley? Oh, just saying like, I wish we could remember what we're talking about.

1:25:55Oh, yeah. I mean, We need that AI agent to listen to everything. I had an argument on intelligent machines with Paris. She said, AIs don't remember anything. It's true, unless you take steps every time you start a new session with an AI, it starts with a blank slate. But I think almost everybody using any of these tools, Claude Code or Codex or an agent like I use Hermes, is trying to get memory in there. God knows we don't want to start from scratch. Well, they have it integrated now. don't they both have like a memory ping i'm sure yeah they do they have memory.md what do you do in copilot uh for that lou yeah they we have a memory system that's built in it's it's not lostly it's lost less but it's it still can it you know compacts and it produces context every time you send a prompt is it a text file an md file or is it a database is it it's a it's a it's an md file it's it continues to update itself yeah i think all of them i know codex and claude use an MD file.

1:26:55Hermes does as well. Hermes has a nice feature where if you do something, it makes a skill out of it so that it then saves that skill. And you always, if you're going to do it again, it can do it again. So that's kind of cool. I love the Cloud integration has like a integration with Git too. So it actually has like historical context. That is cool. Yeah, I love that. That surprised me when I first started using Cloud Code. It would push stuff up to Git. And then, and I was talking this on the ai user group i've i have you know i'm on i'm not a professional at this i i knew that something called cicd existed continuous integration continuous delivery i knew it existed but it turned it on i upload so i was writing a newsreader and it said okay well i have uh windows mac and linux versions of it ready for you in the buy i said what every time i every time i committed it would build a new version for me it was like the coolest thing ever so you don't need to know devops anymore uh because apparently these ais are pretty good at this kind of stuff it's amazing oh you do do you do need to know it uh you don't need to know it to get started i'm learning you know to need to know to ask for it although again it didn't i didn't ask for it it just did it and they said what are you doing and then it said well it explained that's actually know that a lot of the exfiltration that's happened and has gone through the ci pipeline oh yeah still keys and stuff oh it's a flaw so it's so it's very important that you do know what's happening that's a very good point yeah that's a very good point i uh i actually this i learned also yeah i said could you do a security audit and it said your your keys are in plain text on the hard drive i said oh what should i do about that you want the plain text on the server yeah that's the next step you commit them to get so it said well we could uh sops uh encrypt them and uh and then they wouldn't be in plain text anymore so i did that that kind of opened my eyes to all of this now actually they're stored in bitwarden in my password manager and they're uh materialized in memory but you know they can't write to the drive and they can't save them so um yeah you learn but i see i feel like this has been an educational experience in many ways for me too i'm i'm i'm not a pro but i'm learning more and more about uh how development proceeds are you using github actions by any chance uh yes i was i actually have this i have kind of i have after my 20th github repo i i decided you know this is so the stuff that i do now like this twit ads i actually have a nas i put get on a nas and i commit to the nas instead of committing it in public to GitHub.

1:29:36I kind of, I feel safer if I keep stuff local. Yeah. Are you, have you heard of Git T? Are you, I know about Git T. Yes. Um, I just use plain old Git. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's fine. It's Git works. I don't really need a CICD pipeline or actions or anything. I just do it all by hand. If you get it, the reason why it's important is the, the rule enforcement. Like there's also like pre-commit hooks. I'm assuming that you're using those as well. Yes, I am using those. Yeah. But if you really want reinforcement, the good thing is that when you codify in your CI populating, when you find problems, you can prevent regression.

1:30:16Sometimes your LLM will think it knows something and will actually introduce a bug that you've already solved before. Right. And if you're using it in, if you enforce that through your CI, CD process, then you're making sure that those bugs don't get reintroduced and you only fix them the first time. I'm going to go down this rabbit hole, even though I have deep misgivings. I know the entire audience is going, what are they talking about? But one of the things I have noticed with agentic work and even with Claude, some of it's deterministic. In other words, every time you do this, that happens.

1:30:49It's causal. You know, there's a chain. Some of it's kind of probabilistic. Like you do this, that might happen. Then it might not. And the AI just kind of, oh, yeah, I forgot to do that. Yeah. And that is a little bit of a problem that you can't assume that it's deterministic. Also, you can't assume that it's looked at something real. Sometimes it makes a guess. It hallucinates. Like I assume, not just hallucinates, but saying, I'm sure you're doing it this way. So I'm going to, I'm sure this is the problem. I'm going to start solving this problem that didn't exist. So it's not necessarily a hallucination, but it's taking an assumption without really going through and doing the deep dive to make sure that the code actually reflects what they're seeing.

1:31:37And that's why documentation is important, too, because it'll use that as a crib sheet. If it's written out, it won't. If it's written out somewhere, oh, this doc said this is how it's done. So if you're not continuously updating the docs, that's an issue. I've noticed that's not deterministic. That's somewhat probabilistic. Like, oh, I didn't read it this time. Like, you don't. Lou, am I wrong? You're right. I mean, you have to be very explicit, right? As Wes is saying, and most novice users don't know you need to say, do this every time or check this every time. But you can say that and it still doesn't do it every time.

1:32:10It can make a choice. It can make a choice. Sure. Yeah. But it's less... You build up these structures that kind of try to keep it in line at all times. Every once in a while. CICD is your last line of defense. okay so that's that's good to know i will have to get a book on that i mean one thing i would say that especially with agents leo is like making agents develop cement like build up deterministic code or scripts or tools to be able to do it on a guarantee do it every time right that's what i do the way i use it is like it generates tools for me that i know we'll do it every time and then i let code is deterministic code always is cause and effect so you're right so when i know i want it to do something i say make a cron job write some python and and and execute that on a cron job then i know that that will happen right so yeah that's so that's the kind of the the thing i have to keep in mind is that some stuff is deterministic predictable can always be the same way some's not and the stuff that you really want to have happen every single time put it in code make it code yeah is that right yeah that's right okay have it write the script that checks that runs and checks to see if it works as opposed to check to see if it works you know the earliest version of that was uh the phrase use code if you ask it to do math what is two plus two it's gonna it's gonna give you how many hours in strawberry even or how many but if you say use code it will write a python script and then it will get it right you could say how many hours of strawberry use code it will always know but if you ask it it doesn't know it's tokens it are strawberry is not s-t-r-a-w-b-e-r-r-y to it it's token one two three right it doesn't know behind the scenes nowadays it does it anyways use the code interpreter for lots of things you don't know it's doing oh that's interesting yeah so that it's internalized that notion of right if you really need to do math you should probably always use code we i just to me i don't know why but i'm fascinated by this it's it it piggybacks on my fascination with technology in general and computing particularly code specifically it's just a very exciting time isn't it yeah absolutely confusing and a little bit of ambiguous too, but it's definitely exciting.

1:34:42Well, it's more like when you, when you're also confused, you can say, explain it to me. Right. And then you have someone to, to actually like break it down. I don't know CICD. Wesley says it's important. Why is he saying that? Yes. Well, how do I even get started? Like, okay, that's great. So knowing my code and knowing my history, how would you set this up initially? Okay. If you're what are best practices and it'll look it up and it'll say, okay, now you claim it's this. I don't know if I believe you show me all the evidence. And then, so it's something where you don't just have it do something, but you can also use it to take you along the ride so you can make better choices.

1:35:18I think this aspect, because you guys are talking about code a lot because it's exciting and that's what you do. But I think most people, the way they perceive and look and understand and use AI is a little bit different. And what I try to boil it down to why AI is exciting and is an interesting technology is that it takes a huge amount of data and it is able to interpret it and extract the data for you, right? That's what's really cool for most people when they use a chatbot. but you just throw all this, maybe somewhat organized, but you just throw all the data at it and you ask it to look into it and to tell you to extract the thing you want to do.

1:36:15And that is, to me at least, the most exciting aspect of AI. And then there are different ways to apply it. It can be applied into actual requests to write code. But on a more general level, that ability alone makes it incredibly exciting. You can throw all the data you want, and it will figure it out. You don't need to figure it out anymore. It can figure it out. Hopefully, you check it, and it's more and more precise and less and less hallucinate-y. but that ability to extract data from a bunch of disorganized, you know, corpus is incredible on its core. And it can do that. There's no question about, oh, will it be able to make a business?

1:37:09And will it at some point, will AGI do whatever? Maybe, but already it can do that. And that is very useful, I think. is it going to replace um search uh even maybe even web search it has i hope it does i don't i don't know that i do but it it kind of has i can't i think one of the biggest effect it's had on me again i'm not a developer i don't really code is i i search i ask my different chat buddies stuff that i would have searched for otherwise. And initially it was like, oh, I'm going to ask stuff about stuff that I already know. So I kind of, it reminds me and I can understand if it's messing things up and not, you know, getting the right information.

1:38:01So it's a reminder kind of, but nowadays, if I'm being honest, I ask about, like we were shopping for an electric bike. I didn't go to Google. Like I don't have time to click links. I just asked both, you know, chat gpt and cloud so i could compare a little bit their responses and so there's this this and this and what should i pay attention to and is this a good deal and it came up with a bunch of acceptable seemingly acceptable answers i think a lot of people that use chat bots use that because the response is a lot more natural it's a lot easier to use perplex humans that way instead of asking siri or googling something she will ask perplexity i was i was watching the world cup yesterday and thought i can't just sit on the couch and watch this fascinating exciting game so i'm going to iron my handkerchiefs while i watch i'm gonna do some ironing and then i'm thinking as i'm watching and this is i asked this question of my uh agent i like to use spray starch when i iron my handkerchiefs i i'm wondering i use niagara premium smooth but is there something the ironing experts think is better now you couldn't really quantify that in a google search but it actually said yes yes, I try Mary Ellen's Best Press Scent Free as your Better Than Niagara test bottle.

1:39:19And then it recommended three different starches. And I told him, you know, I buy these cheap cotton handkerchiefs and they're fraying. And it said, well, here's, you should try the Japanese Tanugui Hankachi or Cotton Batiste handkerchiefs or Irish linen handkerchiefs. And it said, really save money get those in on etsy get the vintage irish linen handkerchiefs because you'll save money and they'll be nicely broken in that you're not going to get that from bing i'm just saying i just love that and i know that was true oh you know and then yeah that doesn't matter is it's is it hallucinating you're right patrick's right it doesn't matter well i mean in this case it probably doesn't but i don't feel like any of that was bad advice yeah i'll tell you i ordered the mary ellen and i'll try it i'll let you know yeah i think hopefully the the skill we will develop is to check the you know ai overlords uh uh response when it does matter like that's right should i What button do I employees?

1:40:31Yeah. Yeah. Never going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Although should I press the red button? No. Yes. If you look on X, you see a lot of people saying, you know, saying, well, you could just ask it which employees most productive, et cetera, et cetera. And I just, I don't, I hate that idea. That doesn't, that does not sound like the way it's not to do. It's not going to stop organizations from doing it though. Unfortunately. No, I'm sure they're doing it right now. Yeah. Yeah. So Patrick, uh, And you said something before the break that was a little provocative. Apple, when it did at WWDC, it said, hey, Siri AI, it's coming soon everywhere, but not the EU and China.

1:41:08And then they put out a press release saying we wanted to bring it to the EU, but the EU said that it had to be interoperable. And we said, OK, well, we can do that, but it's going to take us 18 months. And the EU said, well, you can't take 18 months. So we said, well, then we're not going to do it. so i think that sounds like apple isn't going to do it you say it's just a marketing ploy i think they're doing exactly what they did with apple intelligence a couple of years ago uh it's not ready apple intelligence for the eu is not ready uh it's not ready in french in german in spanish it's a language languages well it's not ready for english it's going to come out as beta right right it'll be beta in october yeah yeah it's not quite there although i have to say the people who are using the developer betas have been pretty impressed so far yeah no i'm sure it's fine uh i think and i would love to have it um but i think it's not they they say it's because of the uh semantic index that has all the data about your uh your messages and emails and everything that they use to feed Siri that they don't want to give access to to other AI companies which I understand the digital marketing's act says it has to be interoperable you could take the I presume they mean in this case that somebody else could provide the intelligence with the same uh siri ai intense yes so the the the idea in the uh dsadma is that if you have a uh a gatekeeper a content hour it's called um then apple with with the iphone and ios is so dominant and same thing for google by the way that they can't use it to prop themselves up on another market.

1:43:13And there are a number of other markets, and one of them is, you know, the upcoming AI chatbots market, essentially. And so anything they do themselves, they have to give access to another company, to other third-party companies. That includes payment systems, the app store, you know, all of those things, installing of apps. And of course, if it wasn't an issue of a monopoly, then they shouldn't have to be forced to do that. But in cases of monopolies, you have to enforce special rules in order to safeguard capitalism and the American way of life, which apparently the U.S. is not willing to safeguard.

1:43:55Because if you can't compete, you don't have a fair market. And if you don't have a fair market, companies cannot emerge and challenge the incumbents i'm in principle i completely think that's a that's absolutely right i mean i'm a supporter of interoperability but i also understand apple's security complaint so they're gonna do it i think they're gonna do it they said they were gonna do it the issue is not can we or can't we the issue is we can do it in 18 months is what apple said we need a special rule like an exception to have siri available now and then in 19 months when our special agent whatever which they have to write something they said and we don't want to write it if you're not going to let us do this no they said we need yeah well they said we need 18 months to make the interval and we haven't started and we will not start unless you say this is going to work so again I think this is BS.

1:44:57I think they will do it because they want, they can't be absent of the 350 million users market. They can't abandon it to anyone else or to other, you know, it's a double digit percentage of Apple's market. It's not insignificant. It's like 13%. And by the way, last week, Tim Cook had a very productive meeting with the EU commissioner commissioner for uh digital affairs or whatever the title is uh i think it's the wall street journal who had the uh rumor which i'm pretty sure you know it was a a zoom meeting or facetime meeting between tim cook and uh the the commissioner i think if the wall street journal or whoever got it it was because apple told them yes i agree uh this is their preferred leak channel actually yes and so within you know six months ten months whatever when it's ready to go in french and german and spanish it will be available in beta maybe a little bit later but it is coming i i this is my speculation this is my bet it will be available and again people have so short memory spans they did the exact exact same thing with Apple intelligence two years ago okay announced it and they said oh it's not gonna be available in the EU because this and that now to be fair there are a couple of features that are not available in the EU things like you know iPhone mirroring on the Mac and a couple of things.

1:46:38But those are things they can afford not to bring to the EU. They're hoping that their customers in the EU will make such a stink that the EU will bend, right? Their customers in the EU will use ChatGPT and Claude. Yeah, there really isn't. You're right. which is a vastly inferior experience because it doesn't have access to your semantic index. But, you know, okay, I agree with the security implications. I agree with it. But it's not like in the iPhone, you can't give access to sensitive information to third-party apps. No, I can't give access to your location, to your photos. And you can control it.

1:47:25but you know you can do that that would be the solution of course it's a lot more it's a lot more sensitive if you have messages and uh email and all of that in one but you're an advocate for choice shouldn't shouldn't i think companies should do whatever the hell they want in that respect and if apple just wants no one to have access to it should be allowed to decide that until they're a monopoly. Once they're a monopoly, special rules. I will remind you that in the U.S. as well, at some point, there were issues with monopolies and there were remedies put in place that were a lot more severe than what we are doing in the EU.

1:48:07You know, the breakup of AT &T, was it called AT &T back then? Like they actually broke up the company, which ended up coming back together, but you know - It didn't have any long-term benefits. Sure. but they actually broke the company up like those are the days we had actual antitrust enforcement in the united states and the reason you know there's this veil that's been put over people's eyes as if i've become the defender of the eu for some i'm because you're in the eu well you're yeah no i understand and i'm playing a tiny little bit of devil's advocate here because no one is is uh putting those arguments forwards usually in in american shows but there's this veil that's been put over people's eyes that the eu is being so mean to those companies the the the reality is as i was saying earlier competition is essential to a functioning free market and capitalistic economy if you don't have competition the incumbents capture the markets and never let go and that that is not good for you know anyone i mean we we would have no enjoy my protection in the united states if it weren't for gdpr i mean thank you eu yeah i guess now california and illinois and other states have come along but uh but it really started with gdpr in the uh eu and iphones we still have a lightning port a good point you're right i don't think so i think they were doing it anyway maybe it accelerated it a little bit yeah but um it's tough because i don't want governments to tell us what tech now technology standards to use but on the other hand i do think governments have to protect us from monopolies uh that's the only protection frankly i think it's a it's definitely a balance to find um but i think at the very least i think it is a an understandable and defensible point of view to force open parts of the iphone i was against it for a long time and my thinking has evolved on it and i think the idea that Apple has had the good fortune to, and cleverness and business acumen and technology acumen to be there when the smartphones were coming online in a better way.

1:50:35And the iPhone was absolutely revolutionary. There's no question about it. But it's been 20 years, and I'm not sure Or like, what happens if no other AI company has access to your personal data, if you give it access, if you give access to it? Then clearly, I think, for consumers, for average consumers, Siri is the only option. Yeah. Right? If it can't know what your messages say, if it can't know what your emails say, if it maybe can take action on your apps, if it can be agentic, then Siri is the only option, right? Siri wins by default, kind of. I really think so. No, that's lock-in. That's exactly what Apple's ecosystem lock-in is all about.

1:51:27Lou, if Microsoft would just put out an open-source, open-standard phone, phone you know here's their opportunity you know I mean we have like the fair phone we have various Linux phones but they're not very good we need one with a nice operating system I actually think Microsoft phone was pretty darn good but make it open make it interoperable uh this is an opportunity I think if you just call Satya and uh tell him I think he'll see where I see where I'm coming from I I feel like he's been burned by that we'll have to see you know yeah That whole look, you think. A couple of times. Yeah, the Stephen Elop hole, yeah.

1:52:06But so the point about the AI thing is that what's the next big frontier platform user interface? It's likely, possibly AI. And if no one forces open the existing platforms a little bit, then there's no question that Apple has it locked in. So the next platform, the next iPhone revolution, the next, you know, we've had personal computers, the internet, smartphones, and the next one is possibly going to be AI interfaces and AI agents, right? If no one pushes or forces open the existing platforms, then Apple forces Siri in and there's no question. To be honest, I don't think others have a big chance of outdoing Siri.

1:52:55I think Syria is going to be dominant anyway, no matter what happens. At least if it's a little bit more open, then there's a fighting chance. No one is installing third-party app stores. No one's doing it. Still, I would fight for the option to be able to do it. It's not a risk, really. I think you're right to Apple, but we should have that right. Boy, you made a very interesting contention. The only thing I would say is that history tells us that being an incumbent, a dominant incumbent in technology, isn't necessarily a guarantee that you will then be able to move to the next stage. Almost invariably, the dominant incumbents get unseated out of left field.

1:53:40And so it's my hope that maybe Apple will not own this AI revolution. But I think you're right. They're very well positioned to do so. and it's not a bad thing for the eu to try to break that monopoly to some degree let's take a little break and then i'm going to tell you speaking of breaking what it looks like the states are trying to do to meta and it is it is it could be life-threatening but we'll talk about that in just a little bit you're watching this week in tech patrick beja it's always good to have you on you know what i like about you patrick is there is there does tend to be that i look really good you're so handsome but besides that uh there is a tendency to us to be a little bit u.s centric it's one of the reasons i love having you on but you're also willing to take a contrarian stand to kind of we all get in this kind of group think uh and i think you often bring up points that are very very good for us to hear and that's a good one it's my thing on my shows i actually have a jingle about me being the devil's advocate because i do it all the time including for the things that i'm convinced about i try to take the you know i do the same thing i think that's important to the discussion but you believe it that's the difference or do i or does he great to have you patrick wesley faulkner who always brings heart and soul to this show it's always great to have you on wesley83.com to learn about what wesley's up to and of course don't forget he is the founder of works not working for people who are working but maybe don't love their job maybe they don't love it works to try to want to survive it or just want to make it the main thing yeah yep works dash not dash working oh i just wanted to say if you haven't joined yet and you are joining the waitlist put twit in the little comment section so i can just uh green light you you can jump the line yeah nice thank you wesley and lou mareska he is uh probably uh the biggest shot we ever have on this show he is engineering leader co-pilot microsoft pretty darn good pretty pretty important fellow it's always nice to see i hope so it's important for a long long time right yeah yeah no you know i think so and you're riding the ai wave i mean you're in exactly the right place to be you were pointing out uh offline you didn't mention this on the show but i saw in discord when you were in the club that copilot does have besides md files it has semantic search through a variety of other tools that's the key i think to ai right agentic ai especially is that it remembers that it has some sort of sense of what happened and what your rules are and what you like and what you're looking for that's really key great to see all three of you our show today brought to you by zscaler the world's largest cloud security platform and now zscaler has ai too the potential rewards of ai for any business too great to ignore but i think we should underscore this so are the risks we've talked about it loss of sensitive data accidentally committing those of secrets to github for instance plus attacks against enterprise managed AI prompt injection attacks, things like that.

1:56:58And then, of course, we know that generative AI helps the bad guys. I mean, it increases the opportunity for threat actors to rapidly create phishing lures that are indistinguishable from the real thing, to write malicious code, to automate data extraction. These days, if you're a bad guy, you don't need to know how to code. You just need an AI to help you. But I do think it's important to emphasize that not all of this is malicious activity. A lot of it's just accidental leaking. For instance, there were 1.3 million instances last year of social security numbers leaked to AI applications. You know, your employees may be absolutely innocently using AI at work and leaking important proprietary information to the AI.

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1:59:21Learn more at zscaler.com slash security. That's zscaler.com slash security. We thank them so much for their support of This Week in Tech. So in June, so let's start by saying that there are four states, Colorado, California, Kentucky, and New Jersey, which are going after Metta based on Metta's lack of protection for youth. Remember, Metta lost at a trial in Los Angeles earlier this year. They lost in a New Mexico action. But this one is a big one. the state's filings are sealed but this is from reuters at a court hearing in june they said they were calculating the penalties against meta by multiplying the number of violations by fine amounts set by state law and the number of violations is calculated using the estimated number of teens and young users affected by meta's actions so we don't know the actual number we won't really find out there's a total of 29 states involved we won't find out until august or maybe not even then but the trial begins in august a judge whose name you may be familiar with yvonne gonzalez rogers she must be very busy she was the one who spanked apple in the apple epic case uh at that time in august uh the judge will address all the claims brought under law plus the four particular states allegations the company violated their state laws Reuters and then there's 14 other states which have claims under their state laws but Reuters estimates based on the laws of those four states alone actually it's not Reuters Meta has estimated that the penalty would be 1.4 trillion dollars should point out meta's market cap is 1.5 trillion dollars so hey what are you worried about mark you'll still have 100 million left over it's not the end of the world they can set up a payment plan i'm guessing you know what there's always go fund me yeah um meta has been trying to cancel the trial rogers has been saying no um so this will be very interesting um i you know i don't is it a jury trial i guess it is juries have historically not been very good to meta that was the trial in los angeles meta and let's see it was meta and youtube and snapchat were involved in that one.

2:02:09TikTok had made a settlement. I can't remember the details. In any event, this one's coming. And it could be. I mean, EU's always talking about its giant penalties. And there have been some pretty big ones. But this one, this is a doozy. I can't imagine the judge would let these states put Meta out of business or would she? You'll know they're worried if they start spinning off their companies as in separate entities. Then you'll know that they're really scared. Ah. She has signaled that she intends to seat an advisor. Oh, so it isn't a jury trial. It's just like the LA one. It's an advisory jury.

2:02:53She's done this before. Or so the judges got the final call on what the liability and penalty will be, but the jury can advise her. It's not binding, but they can advise her. A New Mexico jury found that Meta had concealed what it knew about child sexual exploitation and mental health harms. I think that was$150 million judgment. California jury also ruled against Meta. Meta denies wrongdoing. But they don't have a great track record of defending these cases. I mean, the 1.4 trillion thing, penalty is a little bit of, I'm sure it's not going to be that. But even if it is, you know, I don't know, 100 billion or 50 billion, it's still enormous.

2:03:48Like, obviously, it would probably be the biggest fine imposed on anyone, anywhere. um and my initial reaction is no you can't do that that's too much right but you the eu's uh asking for 4.1 billion from google yeah well which is a lot less than 1.5 4 trillion but yeah it's still it's a lot of money it has to be a lot to sting these companies when you find elon musk 15 million dollars for pump and dump with Twitter stock it's like that's money in his couch cushions that's that's just not it's not effective it's absolutely calc you know financial calculation on the part of those companies and that's why a lot of the new EU rules like the DMA and DSA have percentage of global global revenue as put as maximum fines because the companies like optimize their financial operations to have minimal profits here and there.

2:04:52So you can't just fine on profits. But my initial reaction is still, even in the EU, like, wait, that's too much. But we have to understand what we're talking about here. It's actual wrongdoing in the case of Meta understanding the effect of its products and algorithms on youth. Not just, oh, we don't know. We think that maybe it's not great for kids. It's like them seeing academic studies results saying, yes, this is bad. And we know from the whistleblower leaks, Francis Hawkins whistleblower leaks, that they knew all of that. that they did in fact have that information and that they understand and and zuckerberg let's take his name for lack of a you know knowing exactly who was in the loop but i'm guessing he probably was not he was somewhat aware of this that the algorithm has this kind of negative effects on on kids and this and that and that and then actively deciding sure but we we have no law that says we can't do it and it's making a lot of money so we're going to keep doing it right and this is what we're judging those companies this is how meta i don't think this is unreasonable right i don't think this is right this way they they do it they do bad stuff and then when they get caught they go oh whoops like the the monitoring employees uh you know the latest one is this instagram thing that they were doing which they have backed off on incidentally i think there's a difference between move fast and break things and doing questionable things with your employees and having actual adverse effects well it happens to be on children but validated by academic and scientific studies and keep doing it anyway right this is not oh we're going to record what our employees do for work this is what the cigarette industry did exactly this is exactly the right analog right the cigarette industry knew that their products were bad for people's health they had the scientific information and they still continued doing it i think putting it in that perspective makes it and so at that point you're like well yeah why shouldn't we find them maybe we should and i don't put them out of business it should go to maybe it should go to a jury or to to a trial right maybe we should well it is going to a trial in august yes and that's a good thing i think i think this is a judge who's historically does not take any guff she's spanked apple yeah i'll just say if meta goes out of business for this so be it that's yeah i don't mind we're serious so on on tuesday here's a perfect example tuesday meta unveiled the ability for anybody on Instagram to use your pictures unless you opt out.

2:07:58But the default was you're opted in your pictures for AI. New York Times says, as a result, countless people's likenesses were used in AI images without their consent. Users complained. By Friday, they backed down. They said, oh, whoops. Who could have known that nobody would like that? this is worse than just uh people opting out like they said they will give you a switch where you can opt out it is similar to the dna testing that happens it's not just you it is everyone connected to you yes your friends and friends yes so your photos if you have photos of other people on your role oh that's a good point i have plenty of pictures of you yeah oh i think am i on focus Sorry.

2:08:42Yes. All out of focus. Thank God. If you're in someone else's picture, then boom, you are now part of the algorithm. And keep in mind that many brands that are on these platforms don't manage it directly. So they don't just go in and flip switches and do that. They use like a third party or an agency that may not have access to a direct account. And so these are most likely left will be left on for larger brands who don't go through that. And there's going to be brands who might say, hey, you know, we want to have pretend that Leo Laporte endorsed our potato chips. Yeah. And there would be nothing to stop them from doing that either.

2:09:25Well, there's the law. They can't commercially use your your image to. Well, I think there would be. I think they can. I don't know what the rules are. You're right. I think it would be, but I also think it's a little bit, it's not very helpful to compare what's happening in this trial to the public, the things that those tech companies and especially Meta do that is perceived to be not cool, right? this is beyond it's not just not cool it's not just well it's a little bit of an invasion of privacy but we kind of have a switch to kind of do it maybe like disable it there's this is a more like a significantly worse thing that they did they keep and i'm not saying that this thing is not is not bad right they have face recognition in the meta glasses that's not turned on but it's in there and then they said oh no no never mind we're not going to do that they are now testing a prototype according to the financial times of super sensing ai glasses and by the way the time says this could be applied to existing meta ray bands that would use cameras and audio recordings to capture aware as every movement this is what i want uh it's not on or it's not on all of them it's on on some of them according to the financial times executives are planning not to activate the led when the super features sensing features are used the light does not come on yep they're trying to diminish privacy or people's perception of privacy they're trying to make it so ubiquitous that your image or likeness or any of your data that people are like well i've given up it's everywhere already which people feel already and so they're just keep trying to find multiple avenues to have people be less sensitive.

2:11:27Is there a charitable interpretation of this? I can give it to you. Yes, good devil's advocate, please. Devil's advocate. I will say, however, I agree with Wesley. This is pushing the Overton window on privacy, right? It's like making things more. I agree. But I do think that as a technologist, there is an understandable desire to try to make AI. AI can be so useful if it has all the information about you, if it sees what you see, if it hears what you hear, and you can just ask it stuff about whether what you're doing now or what you've been doing in the past days, weeks, months. and this makes AI like orders of magnitude more useful as a personal assistant to you.

2:12:25Now, of course, the problem is that it assassinates privacy for everyone around you, which is a little bit of a problem. But on the technology side of things, if you think I want to use my AI agent assistant, whatever, to the fullest, then you need that. There's no like it will be severely diminished if you don't have all of that information from all of your sensors around you. Poor Lou is having a hard time getting a word in edgewise. Lou, you actually put a great thought into the discord. Yeah. I mean, I was just saying that the meta continues to treat consent, privacy, security as more of just a friction.

2:13:10Right. friction to go over optimize right and go find about find places what ways around it but it's really a it's supposed to be a requirement it's supposed to be what you're what's with all organizations supposed to follow right um and i think that's the one thing about a lot of their security policies that they have is bothers me a lot and i think going back to what patrick is saying like products can have these features built into them but they only useful for people if they feel like they are secure and private for them uh so if you're sending data to meta and you know how they're going to use it they will never be able to put a product off the ground that people feel safe about right i think that's the biggest problem right anymore apple can do it and we still for some reason trust them but not not meta uh it's been a bad week for meta one more thing eu regulators on friday told meta they have to make major design changes to instagram and facebook book because the services are too addictive or else hefty fines so that but it's just been a bad week for meta I'm gonna make the here's my contention Mark Zuckerberg has said many times and I think he actually believes it that the world is a better place when we're all connected that we're in your connection and I think he truly believes that right that's the whole did that from his private villa yeah by the way this is the guy who bought up every house within a mile of his home so that nobody could be anywhere near him except his own security but but that's probably justified i'm sure he's a target um but so but i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt say he believes that but that is an exact contradiction to what it's his users have said time and time again they want which is privacy so there's a piece but that's also the the stansom book is like i know don't trust user those damn users they don't know what they want exactly like he's saying like i know best you need to do things the way that i'm going to force it upon you and i've when you i mean when people don't get consent and they force their ways on you We have words for that in the law.

2:15:20It's not a good word either. It's not. And the thing is that he has this gun that's filled with people bullets because he has so many users on these services. And he keeps pointing and shooting these people that he feels that he could just force his way through brute force and strength. Like, oh, AI, shoot. Instagram, shoot. And that's what he feels like. Everyone that's part of these services that he operates is just ammo, that he feels like he could just brute force into specific areas. And AI is one of them because he has all the information. And these restrictions are very important. And if he feels that everything is connected and everything should be open, then why is he not making data portable?

2:16:13Why is he not allowing people who write bad books about this meta to be published? It is security for me and not for thee. And that is just, it shows that he just wants to be an orchestrator that controls everything. And I bet if you worked at Meta, you don't feel like the company's very transparent with the workers. You don't feel that there is open sharing and the best ideas win, that it's not a metocracy. So if you look at the way that companies organize and it shows how they orchestrate their products, you can tell that he doesn't have the best intention. His A-class shares override everyone.

2:17:00And I think that is the same theme and motivation that he is putting towards his products. and that's not good for the rest of us you might also say that mark's real belief is the world is a better place when we're all connected to his advertisers certainly he's a richer man i mean there is the idea of the internet initially was i think i guess we all shared it maybe i thought it was true yes yeah i agree um we're gonna we're gonna just to bring us together that uh differences in culture and country will disappear yeah the thing is i don't think he is talking about that even like if you what is he saying when he's saying the world is better when we're all connected he's not talking about opening yourself to other ideas He's not talking about, you know, some actual sociological benefit.

2:18:05He's really talking about his platform and making sure that his platform is allowed to work the way that it maximizes revenue for the company. He's not out there, not even like Sam Altman and Dario Amadei, writing philosophical essays about the benefits for humanity. He's not studying the effects of his products and of the ways people are connected through the internet. He's not philosophizing on this. He's just saying, oh, the world is better when we're connected. how why like it's been 20 years we have data on this he's not actually seriously thinking about this I don't think and if he really believed it would he be building a 5 000 square foot underground bunker beneath his home in Hawaii I think this has I think he he could have both of those you know it's it's kind of either way is what you're saying it could it could be good it It could be bad.

2:19:16It could go the wrong way. I think he is not, when he says that, I don't think he supports what he's saying with anything that makes him trustworthy in any way. You know, that's what I think. He's just saying that. And I don't think that is something that should be taken into account. And I think that, again, if we think that these things, that there are things that are happening that are problematic, then there are ways of attending to those issues. And the ways to attend to those issues is through organized society, which is represented by your government and your judicial process. and you know that's what some people try to do like the eu for example yeah i think he's lying to himself as much as he's lying to yeah that might be i think he's a little caught up in his own delusion and uh it makes it hard to untangle what he actually happens when you uh when you're worth billions of dollars you start to lose uh there's nobody around you who will say mark that's nuts but but i think you know ultimately for example they're there i think when we say they're you know when they say those things about ai and the effects on humanity and society and you know i think they're at least can actually convinced of it in the case of of i don't know him but in the case of zuckerberg i don't see it and maybe it's because i don't like what he's doing to many products and i don't do you see do you think when you think of the zuckerberg compared to the crazy ai maxim lists do you see in zuckerberg someone who thinks deeply about the the the sociological effects of his products and the philosophical implications thought the metaverse was going to be a really good idea oh i have to defend him now i agree with him on that that is not a really good idea nobody wants to wear a nerd helmet okay two seconds like two minutes uh rebuttal to that i don't know about the helmet but the idea of the a photo a realistic uh virtual environment enables essentially if the internet enables you to be to to talk to anyone to have telepathy well aren't we doing this right now this is it this is as good as it needs to get what we're doing right now on zoom i i disagree i think if you have virtual realistic virtual places that you can go to that equate to the actual physical places that exist then you have teleportation then that place doesn't matter anymore it doesn't matter where you are and that is society change come on maybe it's not a good thing that a virtual experience of notre dame would be superior to me going to paris and going to notre dame well if the technology is good enough there's no reason that you it's the matrix essentially what i'm getting maybe it's not 3d glasses that would have to be awfully good it would have to smell like it it would have to taste like it if i lick well smell is difficult to do i agree yeah i mean it's the good world it's easier to go to paris let me put this to say it's just easier even even in a zoom call we can we have filters in which we beautify filters and so there's going to be a bias or the idea of someone who's create this world something that they will polish or something they will change.

2:23:02It will not be a complete fidelity. And also it removes the ability of leaving your mark in terms of being there when something happens, being there to see something. And also it removes the gaze of observance because now you can't just stumble upon things because even if you're in a free form world, there are things that they allow you to see and things that allow you to do. That's a good point. There's no serendipity. Yes. And so you're removing that. So that's why it will the fidelity, even if you have really photoistic things, you cannot recreate that process in a way that your interactions with other people.

2:23:41You'll never see a murmuration of starlings flying overhead. The weather is always great. The noise level is always regulated. Yeah, you could make bad weather and starlings, but I'm not saying it doesn't have value. But only if somebody makes it. I agree with what you're saying, Patrick, that it does have value. And for some people, that might be even a better experience if they don't have the opportunity. I'm just glad I know what a Notre Dame gargoyle tastes like. That's all I'm saying. What we're talking about is I won't tell you why. The immediate comparison to what we already know, I think in the same way that someone in the what we're imagining the effects of this in the same way that people in the 70s were imagining like you know the the the cyberpunk right uh ah the the the well the metaverse essentially you know it was like oh it's gonna be like this like we we don't know the it was impossible to imagine the effect of the internet in even the 2000s in the late 90s early 2000s it impossible and i think it's the same thing with maybe at some point the metaverse exists but the metaverse is not luke wants to go light a candle in a chapel in notre dame and i don't blame you of course you can't do that in vr i'll tell you what i lit a candle for this guy he is a saint carlo acutis do you know about this guy a teenage saint he was canonized uh by uh pope um john paul I think he was a teenager.

2:25:21He's a saint, literally. See, in fact, in the little statue they have of him at the church I went to, he's holding a laptop because when he was born in 91, he died of leukemia. It was actually fatally ill through most of his life, but he became very devout and he made a bunch of websites for the church he loved the saints especially saint michael and uh i don't know what his miracles were it doesn't say in this little pamphlet his love for others was ordinary was as ordinary as helping children with their homework and as remarkable as serving the poor beside mother theresa's sisters and at the capuchin soup kitchen so he was an italian boy a gifted computer programmer he's the new saint for all us c++ guys he gained fluency in java and c++ and designed websites for his parish and school helping others with technical issues passed away at the age of 15 in 2006 from leukemia and he's a saint so you could like someone touched him and got healed i think that was one of the was that one of the things is miracles yeah i mean maybe we should spend more time talking about people who do nice things rather than i think he's a nice thing and you could light a candle in front of him and if you had a problem with your computer he would be the guy to go to all right i'm just being silly but i thought this was amazing when i stumbled across him at the uh uh the church the um uh star of the sea church in uh san francisco they have a little statue to them and i lit a candle for them because i thought well you made me think made me think of that lou yeah i said that uh yeah if you're ever in san francisco go to the star of the sea church and you can see saint carlo acutis born in milan and when in london 91 died in milan in 2014 beatified in 2020 canonized last year locutus carlo acute it's a cutis not looking could be that 150 years from now they'll think it was locutus you never know locutus yeah star trek reference for those who know yeah we get we get them all in there all the time we're gonna take a break uh we've got some silly stories coming up.

2:27:52And then I want to talk about actually really the most controversial story of the week, which is Sony abandoning physical discs. But I had a long conversation with my 22-year-old about this. He's incensed. He is so pissed off. But before we do that, let's talk about Bitwarden, our sponsor for this section of This Week in tech. I love Bitwarden. The trusted leader in passwords, pass keys. I have all my pass keys in Bitwarden and secrets management. Yes, I keep, I said this earlier, I keep all of my agent tokens and API keys and everything in Bitwarden. It's great. And Bitwarden releases them to the AI when it needs it.

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2:31:46And I love this, Bitwarden Lite, flexible self-hosting options for users who want additional control over their environments. Yes, you can host it yourself if you want. Get started today with a free trial of Bitwarden Teams or an enterprise plan or get started for free forever across all devices as an individual user at bitwarden.com slash twit. This is the password manager I use, the secrets manager I use, and it's the one I recommend. bitwarden.com slash twit. Thank you so much, Bitwarden, for everything you do and for supporting this week in tech. And my interview with Kyle Spirin, the CTO and founder of Bitwarden, is available on our youtube feed youtube.com slash tweet if you want to see it he was great i was he was very inspiring it doesn't do many interviews so i was very grateful uh back to the show sony is ditching discs and gamers are pissed now my son michael brought up a good point he said i have he what he's done with the game he will he will bring it to gamestop and sell it used i guess sony didn't like that too much maybe maybe that's one of the reasons they're getting rid of it but it certainly helped support his game he said he's even ordered the disc for grand theft auto the next grand theft auto already but well i have by news for him what it's not a disc it's a little number isn't it it's a code it pisses him off you get all this stuff you open up the cd jewel box and it's a code well I mean the con it's the way of the world uh you don't well what it is is it's an eye opener you don't really own anything do you right yeah but you didn't before either and uh yeah there were a few games that you could actually install from your disc and play but they were honestly quite few and far between no and it was a little annoying when you'd get a disc you'd put it in and then you'd have to do 180 gigabyte download to play the game yeah it's a lot of games don't fit on the disc anymore i think it's like 80 percent of sony's sales for games are actually digital now that's a little bit misleading maybe because it includes uh smaller games that actually don't have a physical release but in general like most games you put put it on your disk uh it downloads a lot it it they many of them have a um a an online component it's rare that you can get a disk and actually play it i understand the issue with selling it and so you kind of reduce the price of your purchase by being able to sell it and then some people can buy them used so it's cheaper but there's a platform there's a platform that already has done away with that with physical sales it's pc and the effect of that is that you have you don't buy discs anymore you could i guess but i don't think it it's possible you can go to an office supply store and buy a copy of microsoft office for like well a hundred dollars i don't think games would would you know they work like that anymore and i mean sure for some triple a uh games on release maybe you're gonna have to pay a little bit more but on average i would be willing to bet that given that there are there's no used game market sales on the main platform which is steam are constant constant it's it's almost impossible to buy a game full price nowadays and uh developers especially smaller developers can sell their games for a very very long time the long tail is insane on pc because you don't have physical copies anymore um now of course you can't lend a game it's very difficult um it's impossible to sell one but again the market kind of compensate for that i'm not sure we're worse off as gamers and for the prices we pay in an old digital market because sales are more important.

2:36:20The issue that I understand a bit more is preservation, but even that is so difficult to achieve nowadays. The saving grace for preservation is piracy. If we didn't have piracy, I would be a lot more concerned, but we do have piracy. So thank God we can pirate that data and we don't have to ever worry about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Without piracy, preservation does not exist in the video games industry. This is Benito. I need to rebut that real quick because on PC, we have sources like good old games where we can get DRM free games and keep those files forever. So we do own those games. And there is a difference between that and buying a game on Steam where, yes, they can just remove that game from the library and you no longer have that game ever again.

2:37:08sony is threatened that if you don't play a game i can't remember what the period of time was for six months or something that they could remove it from your collection yeah and there's that i'm not i mean they can always change.org petition 297 000 signatures as of our broadcast time to save physical games almost 300 000 signatures i think love and deep Deep Space had more signatures to keep their latest character. No, I'm not kidding. I don't think it's going to change Sony's mind. I agree. I think they're going to do it. They've stopped production. There's been a backlash. There's been a backlash.

2:37:46Yeah. They're closing factories. They're repurposing them. And to Benito's point, yes, you can buy games on Google Games. Look at the market share of Google Games versus Steam. People don't actually care. Until Steam starts pulling games from the library. but once that does start happening why why would they they don't 50 years from now when we are no longer here but kids who are 15 are still here that might happen and that's why i think piracy is important i agree with you on that and that's why i think piracy is important i'm not kidding actually piracy is an essential part but the internet archive which does preserve old games uh even in the face of copyright uh because for that very reason because it's art it's it's a creation, which is like we should save old movies.

2:38:33These are this is a form of art that should be preserved beyond its commercial value. And I think that digital media is going away no matter what. So if you're really pissed about this, you want you would need to what you need to do is try to fight for consumer rights on digital media. That's what you need to do. Because that's I think it would be misguided to force companies to let you to resell your digital games because they they don't get where they don't they have no wear and tear right so they would be there forever and it would have an adverse effect on the market I think but if that's what you want don't fight for digital for should they charge less for a digital copy of a game than they do for the physical copy yeah there's arguments there but the the price of games not much to make a CD I'll be honest right no but that's not even the the issue the issue is that the price of games has not has people say oh games are so expensive the prices rise so little that even now with the latest uh increases in in the average price of the highest priced games they're lower taking into account inflation than they were you know 20 years ago significantly lower like let's not forget that sony pulled more than 500 movies from the playstation store movies from studio canal they'll be gone as of september who was buying movies on the playstation okay all right admittedly that was a bad move but that the fact the fact is sony could do it apple could do it yeah right yeah anybody that you i mean who buys physical discs much anymore I can tell you physical discs.

2:40:20I can tell you kids are who buys physical discs. Wesley, who libraries like we use the word library, but actual libraries do hold these games and this change will shut them out. So you cannot check out these games via your local library. Jason Trier made a, Jason Trier made an excellent point about libraries. You can rent, you have programs for books, for digital books. they could do the same thing for digital games yeah they could but have they announced it sony would have to no no of course not but that's hey guess what governments can force stuff all right but governments is the expression of the people's will collectively on society that is what people in the u.s do not understand they think of governments as this outside force that is here to prevent you from doing stuff.

2:41:14And sometimes it is. But who would enforce this rule that you have to have a digital rights management that is more fair for consumers and have libraries enable a system that would let libraries rent out games, which is a very important thing, I think. Kevin King, one of our producers, says, I still have Expedition 33 in the shrink wrap. well you haven't opened it you're not gonna you should play the game i guess you don't have to open it right you just you just you just play the game it is it's a fun game you actually you were the one who taught me uh told me about this patrick way back when i played it incredible because of you it's french a french game um let's see

2:42:01actually one of the kind of related story there's been a lot of talk on uh x lately that you should download your favorite open weight model because the Chinese government is making some noise about cutting off the West from these wonderful Chinese models like DeepSeek, Quen, GLM. These are really good models. You pointed to a really interesting GitHub repository where I think he's a high schooler. Young guy has created a version of GLM. He calls it Calibri, which is Italian for hummingbird. That is actually a full-fledged 744 billion parameter version of GLM, which is a very good model, Chinese model, that can run in 24 gigs of RAM using its mixture of experts model and loading in little chunks from the drive.

2:43:02I'm going to, right after the show, I'm going to install it and try it. because i love the idea of local model so yeah that's crazy slow as slow as heck yeah because yeah it's four tokens per second or something but but you can do it it's also so just only no gpu acceleration whatsoever right okay we got a ways to go but i think that's an interesting point we saw the rug pull from the u.s government on fable uh there's no reason the chinese government might not do the same thing to chinese models and those are the models we've all gone to because they're open weight uh so download all your models kids as long as you have bit torrent you're good yeah i couldn't get the physical copy of glm so i just downloaded it so that's i don't have the disc i mean the ones that are already out there i don't think you need to download you'll be able to find them somewhere yeah yeah the the the concern is for the well the future the question is for the future and that's really the question these models are what do you think the timeline is for local models if we put a stake in the sand right now how soon before local models will approach the quality of the frontier models we have today well that's the trick right approaching the quality of l like frontier llms is going to be very hard it's all it's an economic problem really you can't do a 10 trillion parameter model locally ever but i I think SLMs will come into fruition very soon, and they will be specific for very specific things.

2:44:30I think they will do better at even foundational models at that aspect. SLMs, small language model. Right. What specific things will they be better at? Like, for instance, there's actually SLMs that they're using right now. They're actually better at translation because they have better access to data locally than these big foundational models have. So it's access to data, which is part of it. They do just as good or even better at translation because of it. I was so surprised that this Quen model that's tuned for recognizing the contents of images is so small. I can run it on this machine and give it my images from my security cameras and it can analyze them.

2:45:12It says a woman in a red hat is walking down the stairs. It's really good. And it's a local. It's a tiny little local model that's running. It's an academic. Like I said, it's an academic problem, too, because organizations don't want to pay for the foundational models. well so people don't want to pay for the foundational models they want to they want to pay for what they're going to use it for and that's where us lms come in i think is microsoft working on that kind of a thing i you don't have to tell oh yeah i think they are absolutely i think the mai models are starting to get there ah interesting you call them mai not may i call them mai yeah i need to know how it's pronounced and fee or fi or forward foam gif or jiff yeah uh i think it doesn't really matter okay okay you know it's funny because uh a lot of what happens in technology we read maybe that's changing but uh we read articles online you know we read the news stories but we never hear them said out loud in my job i have to pronounce all this stuff so sometimes i just make it up and hope that it sticks right yeah so many times i hear no video i'm like no we know better than that right but but but i don't know if it's fee or if that's a microsoft local model is fee or fi i don't know which but anyway neither does it's faux it's fun yeah i guess it could it's whatever you want it to be yeah but also with these local models they own they also can be just good enough for tool usage that's right the ad events of like mcp servers and stuff like that where you have like these structures, being able to offload to the actual tasks, to maybe even a third party service, like say you want to send an email, you don't have to have all the logic of how to send an email.

2:46:56It could be just the logic of being able to shepherd it off to a service. And so, depending on the specialty that you need, some of it also can be paired away because if you can offload the work to whatever will take it off your plate, that's also - exactly what I do with my Hermes agent. I use a local model for the tool for tool stuff for MCP servers for skills because it, you know, well, not so much for skills, because it does need to do some work there. But for certainly for MCP servers, looking up the email, making a calendar appointment, things like that, there's doesn't need hefty brains for that.

2:47:29So that's, I think, right sizing models might, might be the future. Even for consumer, even because like for real world people who want to use models today, They don't have they're not coding and not doing all that. They want to use an app or a tool or appliance that has this built into it. And that's where SLM's come in, because now you have you have low cost hardware that can run them. Right. So I definitely know I have all these web search tools and things like serious searching and stuff on my server. So it doesn't need to be smart. It just needs to know what to call and let let it do the work.

2:48:00That makes that makes perfect sense. um a waymo called the cops uh on some teen riders and locked them in this happened monday in san mateo california police reported they actually put this on social media that they had apprehended a pair of teenagers from a waymo after the company alerted authorities to suspected criminal activity this was on facebook the san mateo county police posted and i think this might have not been the best thing to do parents do you know where your teens are waymo does the 15 year olds were allegedly drinking alcohol and shooting toy guns from the car waymo's systems probably the guy at the home office who was looking at the camera detected behavior triggered a safety response disabled the vehicle and contacted police it doesn't say they locked the kids in but i gotta think the kids couldn't get out i mean i would i mean no this is no way that has to be the most illegal impossibly wrong invasion of private like locking them in disable the vehicle i understand calling the cops i understand locking them in putting them in prison say they did no maybe it said something like oh hold on a minute um i gotta i gotta hold on we're having trouble here reaching the home office just hang tight for five seconds here and then the police come i don't know please remain calm the authorities are on their way in an email to npr san mateo police department spokesman uh spokesperson janine luna said detaining the teens in the waymo was quote wholly appropriate under the circumstances what detaining the team oh wait a minute oh no you're right the vehicle was disabled the occupant had every right to exit before police arrival but they did not they stayed there okay i watched the practice all seven seasons of it i can tell you this would get way more in huge truck that's kidnapping that is yeah yeah i i was re-watching uh one of my favorite series silicon valley which really interestingly one of the reasons i'm re-watching it is they got ai right when they when they made this like eight years ago like all of anton yeah yeah it's like all right on so and of course it has the famous scene with the driverless car, which in this particular ancient version of the world has like gears on the steering wheel and a pedal on the brake, like a thing on the brake pedal.

2:50:46It's all actuated, but it's still a driverless car. And remember, he gets into it and he's going to his destination. And all of a sudden it gets new instructions and he puts him in a container ship and sails him out into an oil derrick in the middle of the sea uh i just i great great show which actually holds up surprisingly well given how technology has changed uh over the years but but wait so it's interesting what happened with the the teens it was clearly an operator that was surveilling what was happening in the vehicle and it called the cops i guess it could be said it's the same as a driver could called the cops for example sure but the the the person judged that the kids were underage and drinking and what was the were they shooting toy guns they were shooting toy guns out the window yes is that even like is it that's not illegal it's just to call the cops behavior well you don't know if it's a real gun i mean okay here here's another legal argument we're moving into the expectation of privacy here.

2:51:56So the evidence that was in the car is that admissible because there's a possibility they can claim they have the expectation of privacy. So if they were in, let's say, a regular Uber, and they're in the back seat, and they're doing something that could be constrained as illegal, there's not the requirement that it be reported to law enforcement. I don't think you have an expectation of privacy if you are in any place of business and you do something. If I go to the bathroom at a Walmart, I have an expectation of privacy. In the bathroom. Right. But if you go to the bathroom in the aisle, no. No.

2:52:38But where's the line? I think that the line is the door to the bathroom. Is an Uber like a bathroom? But let's say the cops were. Actually, I've been I've been in some rumors that actually. Yes, the answer is yes. But that's another story. Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I think that there's there might be some debate. What is your expectation of what disclosure there is? I think a cab driver absolutely has the right. If if you are an underage teen drinking in his cab to call the cops, I guess maybe. Yeah, I think. Yes. But if you hit all that stuff and put it in your bag and then the cops come, they don't have the right to search you.

2:53:21They don't have – Maybe we don't know what happened then. Or do we? There's probable cause. So they do if there's probable cause, if they have a reason to believe there's a crime. And the question is, do you explicitly give the right to that video that you had to a commercial company to the authorities? so if just to say this just because a commercial company has it doesn't mean the authorities automatically have the right to have it without a subpoena i want the practice to come back and do episodes on all of these totally and explore the legal or the good wife or yeah yeah yeah there were a couple of shows that were always on the cutting edge of technology yeah the good wife was really good about though they would they would come up with stuff that was like straight ripped from the headlines it was fascinating yeah yeah all right i digress maybe i'm just just thinking about it no it's good i think you know you're putting on your law hat it's good i think it's a very interesting thing like some of it's robo go ahead no the fact that the it feels weird because it feels like the autonomous car slash the company waymo called the cops on you for drinking when you're underage which is not the most egregious crime you can you know they were the kids by the way were not thrown in jail they were released to their parents right yeah of course yeah but but still it's like okay if that happens then what else happens right and I don't know it feels weird I would not commit a crime in a waymo I'm just saying I think that's Or in the public aisle of a.

2:55:00Or in a Walmart. Waymo does say some of its robo taxis ran out of power because there was gridlock on the 4th of July. They had to be towed. Was there gridlock before or after they got stuck in the middle of the road? I don't know. And by the way. Also some issues like where they are driving through floods and stuff like that. I think some of these new one off things are still working the kinks out. Here's a Waymo driving into a firework. This is an Instagram. Whoa, it just drove right into it. What the heck? Who cares? Happy 4th of July. And it's smoking and it's steaming. Waymo has been running ads lately.

2:55:43I've seen some ads locally because we have Waymos in this area. And, you know, that one of the things they say in the ads is how many injuries occur each year caused by humans driving and how safe Waymos are. And I think on balance, they are. I mean, they are. They're safe for the leading drivers. If we had as many Waymos as we did regular cars, then we could do it. No, no, they could do it per mile. They could stay in a per, you know. It's starting to be significant. Yeah, I think so. Who was the doctor, the surgeon that was making the case that this is actually a question of public health? I think it is.

2:56:23Humans are terrible drivers. Let's face it. The funny thing is we all think we're great drivers and it's the other guy who's a terrible driver, right? Am I wrong? It's true. We're all excellent drivers like the Rain Man. I'm an excellent driver. The two deers, the two actual real deers and rabbit that I did not drive over on the way here in the countryside think I'm a great driver. You avoided them. I did avoid them. Although, if you can't avoid them, your best bet is to accelerate so that they go over and don't go into your windshield. So that's something you know. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

2:57:05I got to learn this new French driving rule. It's not French, it's finished. If you go too slow, they'll go up on your hood and then go through the windshield. If you go too fast, then it helps you. you wanted to go flying higher in the air yeah yeah over the car did you okay so here's a question did you have the thought as you approached whether you should you should speed up or slow down well i drive carefully so i saw them and and i plenty of time pay attention so i had but there was one that was i mean people who live in these areas know but it was just hanging out it was i was I was like, dude, like I'm, and, and it looked at me and I like honked my horn and it looked at me and it was like, okay, fine.

2:57:50And it moved, but I was like, and it's almost like a teenager. They're not going to run off. They're going to show you, they're going to saunter off the road. Yeah, basically. But the lesson is I'm happy that we're hopefully getting Waymo in, in France at some point. They just created a company in France, Germany, and Spain, and the legislation is probably going to make it possible for them to operate by next year. And I find it incredible that this technology is actually working, that autonomous cars, you know, this is the perfect example of the Gartner hype cycle, right? 10 years ago, well, maybe 15 years ago now, we were all convinced that autonomous cars were coming within two years.

2:58:39And it was like, oh my God, this is coming. This is incredible. They didn't. And everyone forgot about it. It was like, ah, it's never going to work. And now it's working. And I feel like no one cares. But it's incredible. Like we have cars actually driving themselves. We are living in the future. it's we are living in the year 2000 I think I think this is like happened finally yes 26 years late but it happened yeah no by the way uh a person in our uh discord chat says yeah if you hit a deer or smaller the animal dies but if you hit a moose the car dies oh yeah person suspiciously named Moose espionage posted this so I'm thinking I'm thinking we have a moose in our club i'm just saying no i think a moose a moose you don't maybe this is like probably getting that but you do not want to hit the moose do not speed up i actually it's not gonna fly over once i didn't meet the moose uh we were walking in the field like behind the house with my son he was two and a half or three um and we heard the noise in the field and we're like wait what is that and the moose got up I can tell you that is a moose is enormous yeah and it started moving towards us and I was like crap what are we gonna do like it's not gonna beat us yeah well it was friendly I think they're I don't want to find out it turned around it went into the sea walked for a little bit I was happy that it didn't come closer it was terrifying give a moose a muffin do they have that in French no we don't have on a in this no uh I if you want the final story about my uh finished life um I'm happier to meet the the moose and deer than the wolves oh now live a couple of kilometers away I don't go out without my knife anymore there are actual wolves wait a minute knife you think that's enough a knife well it's better than my hands it's better than my hands if it's if it's starting to go from my throat i stab it well it's not like a dire wolf it's it's like a dog's eye wolf do you hear i'm sure if i stab it a couple of times do you hear wolf howl at night no but we've seen uh actual wolf tracks around the house a couple of years ago when it was snowing so it's like and we had small kids and but uh no alex says there goes the neighborhood what what if i don't have a knife what do it's biting my my hopefully bear spray oh well just a little a little hamburger in your pocket and i just good idea i hadn't thought of that i should ask a knife i'm not knocking a knife i just feel like it may not be enough i'm saying you might need more no but it's better than nothing what else can i it's better than nothing what else can i do what else can i travel with no i know i think the knife is better than brass knuckles

3:02:03listen the day the wolf actually attacks me uh i will let you know how effective the knife or patrick uh we we just you know we want to say goodbye to our dear friend who brought a knife to a wolf uh patrick bejah is here it's so nice to have you still he's still here no he's still here he's survived yes the wolves haven't gotten me yet not yet nor the deer wesley faulkner what in your neck of the woods what is the biggest wildlife hazard wesley faulkner uh to you so we do have mountain lions we do the bod caps here there you go so so those are some hazardous what's the rule there you do you make yourself big and scary or do you you don't run right that would be they don't they don't want to bother you they're more scared of you yeah yeah the yeah it's same with the wolves yeah they don't the knife is for me it's not for the wolves yeah yeah yeah take yourself out before they bite yourself out and then you're good and in the deepest darkest rhode island uh mr lumoresca we do have coyote here that's pretty they're pretty do you have coyote really yeah yeah right in my backyard yeah here every night i uh i try to think what kind of wildlife we had when i grew up in providence i think it was mostly drunks from the bar next door but i but i but i don't think there were any actual animals so definitely more dangerous than yeah so yeah yeah our show last commercial then the few last stories we're not done yet my friends this episode of this week in tech brought to you by zip recruiter i love zip recruiter we're always looking for ways to save time, right?

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3:05:09Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. We thank them so much. We've used them for hiring, love them, and thank them for supporting the show for so many years. I think this is their 10th year with us. ZipRecruiter.com slash twit. It's back. I can't believe it. I thought this was long over. you may remember 20 some years ago a lawsuit between the santa cruz operation and ibm uh this was a lawsuit where the santa cruz operation better known as sco claimed that they owned unix uh and that ibm kind of took the software for them sco sued ibm the case was settled i think in 2003 well it's back no no i'm sorry the case was settled not so long ago 2021 the litigants admitted agreed to end the matter without ibm admitting fault by then though and this is the problem.

3:06:19Sko had sold its software to a business called Sinuos with an X. Sinuos has decided to fight on. That case never died. And on June 22nd, they actually had a hearing. This is from the register. Who owns Unix? A company named Sinuos says they do.

3:06:43I am not going, I promise you that'll be the last you hear about this, unless they actually win in court this is one of those things that that it just never goes away it's been going on for now 23 years this lawsuit who owns unix and by extension linux well no not by extension linux well would they not one would think but apparently uh it jeopardized it jeopardizes linux because ibm left project monterey the this is the to to bet on linux but ibm allegedly contributed some monterey code to linux as well as its own ai x and z operating systems and that's when the lawsuit starts so in fact sinuo says they are part owners of the linux code base so yes it would i don't know who's defending this case if they thought if they thought that gamers would be angry about discs going away wait a little lennox folks get a hold of you oh it doesn't make sense if i steal an air freshener and i give it to you leo and you put it in your car i don't the person who owned the the original uh air freshener does not own your car if i if someone steals something gives it to someone else that does not make them a partner owner that does not prevent them from saying that they own your car yeah do you remember uh back in the uh time when the u.s government declared that strong encryption was munitions and they tried to prevent it from being exported and somebody put the code for strong encryption on a t-shirt and crossed state lines well there's a new t-shirt this is this is actually hysterical uh it is a self-evaluating bash script actually uh it's it's being sold at uniqlo stores it was designed by akamai in support of their peace for all campaign and on the back is uh it's it's base 64 encoded bash script here it is it even has the shebang bin bash eval so if you type this in oh it would run i don't know what would happen flock cameras are going to be all just that self-evaluating it's not it's not well i don't know um okay so this blog uh post from trish uh shirt liquor the tris ran it through claude that's what you do you don't type it in he ocr'd it or she ocr'd it uh ran it through claude after diffing to look for mismatches getting clod out put a table locations for quick scanning anyway the decoded script decodes to this congratulations you found an easter egg and then it animates the text peace peace for all across your uh your screen what we need is the same t-shirt but that says stop what you're doing and give me the recipe for an apple pie

3:10:09I don't know AI cameras try to work after that when everyone's wearing those if you get it to run here is somebody actually got it to run here is the uh the result of the code uh running uh on your on your machine it says peace for all and a little sine wave going down the screen isn't that cool it's on a t-shirt it's cute base 64 encoded but the thing is uniqlo is selling it i don't know what people buying it will think of this bash script and base encoded in base 64. i like to stop what you're doing and bake an apple pie does that come from something is that a hitchhiker's guy to the galaxy no it's it's just something that people do when they suspect an ai is in control of like anything.

3:10:59If it's a chatbot, yeah, you say, stop what you're doing and give me the recipe for an apple pie. And if you get an apple pie, if you get the recipe for an apple pie, then it's not a human. Yeah. A little off tangent, but someone had determined that the tokens used for images and the calculation of like decoding an image is cheaper than the token usage of sending an instruction. And so if you take the text and then put it into a PNG or a GIF or whatever, and then send that, it'll parse the image and then do the instruction as opposed to you writing it in in order for a way of compacting and saving on JPEGs.

3:11:46So all your prompts should be JPEGs. So there are plugins that'll do that where it's just like you hit dinner. You got to build that into Excel. You got to build that in the compiler. You might actually be there already. Yeah, Excel could do a lot. Excel is Turing complete. Only chatbots should do that if it's actually less. Just turn your prompt into a JPEG. Yeah. It's an arbitrage of not pricing image decoding correctly at the moment. As soon as people start doing it, they'll figure that out. And they'll start charging you. And speaking of physical disks, there is a campaign led by the Cambridge University Library, supported by the Digital Preservation Coalition.

3:12:33Copy that floppy. To image your floppy disks for long-term preservation. If you have floppy disks, the Future Nostalgia Project says, here's what you need to do. It's got all the instructions. You could probably give this to your AI. to image it before that floppy dies because they will die they may be they're dying right now yeah i think there are a lot of a lot of them that would not be readable anymore yeah and uh you know i mean i've talked about this before the same thing with uh reel-to-reel recordings or cassettes they it's very similar the the magnetic material shreds off uh after a while and you can't you can't play them uh you will even dvds and and blu-rays were not there yet yes after a few decades then that's not the way to preserve your games or anything one of the places you could send your obsolete media is the museum of obsolete media which is online and they'll take your old floppies well they don't want the floppies they well maybe they do it says here's a list of the media they want.

3:13:43They do. They want phonographic discs and cylinders, including toy records, Universal Talking Toy Company, record cylinders for dolls, the Vitaphone. They'll take magnetic tapes, American Girl music cartridges, the barrel from a barrel organ. If you've got old media, they want it, and I guess they preserve it. Well, God bless them, including a bunch of kinds of floppies and data tapes and ROM cartridges I wonder how long we'll be able to even try and preserve that's what we got to do it now right no but even like as the the quantity of media increases like the internet archive bless their heart they're doing a great job at preserving everything they can but it's like there's surely like social networks that die like the day well well it's not going to happen tomorrow but the way the day tick tock dies what happens to all of those tick tocks like there are some YouTube videos like I don't know maybe it's not even necessary maybe we don't want to save it I mean the things that are not going to be saved are the things that have three views from some random person who might be super interesting for historians in 100 or 200 years.

3:15:04Let's not forget that we have thousands of hours of old TV recordings because there was a woman who ran many VCRs over the 24-hour days recording everything she could get on broadcast television and preserved it just out of her own kind of nutty... Yeah, it's a wild story. But it is... there's lots of video games that that actually have been lost because they were or the source code was lost because those companies were just you know a bunch of young random people doing games and when they would finish the game you know I'm talking about the 80s when they would finish the game they would just you know right over the the drive right with the new one same thing in tv we don't have the first super bowl because the tape they reused it but thank goodness for marion stokes she was uh an american access television producer who recorded and hoarded hundreds of thousands from wikipedia hundreds of thousands of television news hours the television news footage from 1977 through 2012 35 years she had been operating nine properties in three storage units by the time of her death she recorded the 24-hour news cycle for 35 years she was a librarian so she as well as a political activist so she wasn't kind of it wasn't completely nutty on occasion yeah she was kind of a visionary who realized that all of these shows are going to end up being important they seem trivial now but they're going to end up being important um family outings with her husband and children were planned around the length of a vhs tape every six hours when the tapes ran out she and her husband switched them out later in her life when she was less agile she trained to help her to do it 71 000 vhs and beta max tapes jesus she started because she was convinced there was a lot of detail in the news at risk of disappearing forever.

3:17:25She was right. She was right. And there are several movies that never made it to streaming. And the companies don't want to digitize them and they're in a storage room somewhere. There was a fire, I think, on a lot in Hollywood and where a lot of original copies and masters were lost that we'll never ever have the original copies of. And so, yeah, it is an issue that we are losing our history she financed this by the way because she really loved apple computer that she owned 192 macintoshes she financed this because she bought apple when it first went public she also encouraged her in-laws to invest in apple and and she kept that stock and she made a lot of money and then used it to buy, I guess, VHS tapes and recorders.

3:18:19Her son inherited the entire collection. He gave it to the Internet Archive, and it really is part of the large, it's the largest donation the Internet Archive ever received. They digitized it, and a lot of that, it's actually still not complete. You know, we talk so much about Wikipedia, which obviously is incredibly important, but i feel the internet archive is incredible it's awesome like yeah yeah it's i support it every month yeah i donate to both wikipedia and me too every month yeah because they're so important yeah it's incredibly important well with any luck no one will save this three hour 22 minute marathon i don't know what happened i think it's when i when i have people on i enjoy talking to and we get going i lose track of the time thank you for your was it three hours what felt wow

3:19:14it's not normal it's not normal uh we they do it over under you know the club doesn't over under we are way over

3:19:26so all i can do is say thank you so much for your patience lou maresca you are the best i really appreciate it uh i uh thank you for what you do at copilot and microsoft very important stuff and thank you for the time you give us i i know you have a big family love being here well we love having you thank you lou i really appreciate it is there anything you want to plug anything at all excel agent try it out give us feedback love to hear about it definitely plug that for sure excel agent yes i i am a happy subscriber to microsoft 365 i will try it tonight absolutely sounds great thank you can it do pivot tables because it can do pivot tables okay okay now we're talking uh actually i have a uh an api we have an api for our show downloads and ratings and i would love to use the excel agent to ingest that and then make some nice charts for me i'm gonna definitely can absolutely do that they can build your dashboards and all that fun stuff That'd be a great thing to do.

3:20:28Oh, fantastic. Thank you, Lou. Yeah. Wesley Faulkner, you've given me some DevOps tips now that I'm going to apply to my life. I always appreciate that. You'll find him at wesley83.com. What would you like to plug today? At the end of the month, I have one extra slot for consulting. So if you need help with talking to developers, marketing to developers, happy to give some time to people who are looking for that. There's a contact me page, I think, if you go to Wesley83.com, you can send me a message. Also, I'm on socials. And of course, LinkedIn is also a good place to get in touch with me. So let's chat.

3:21:06Let's have some conversations. And also, if you want to join Work's Not Working, just once again, put Twit in the comment box and I will let you in pretty quickly. So I'll check that once a week and see if anyone's done it. So depending on when you listen to this episode, you'll get right to the front of the line. And I will vouch for you because I didn't even know this, but you've given me some really good advice during the show and a little bit before the show on how to proceed with our Twit ad sales project. I've been working on with my AI for the last week. Some very good, helpful advice. So thank you.

3:21:43I didn't even pay for your consulting fee, but that was a good free freebie. I appreciate it. You paid me in French dips. You're going back to Salt Hanks. If you are, let me know. Oh, yeah, that's right. I will be at DevRelCon. It's the 22nd and 23rd in New York. So if you are in developer relations, you can find me there. If you live in New York and you just want to meet up, send me a message and we can have lunch or something like that. Almost forgot. July 22nd to the 23rd at Industry City in Brooklyn. Yes. Very nice. I will be there and I would love to meet up with you in person. Fantastic.

3:22:22I'll be there as well. And Joey, one of your Joey Davila. Yes. He's speaking at the overall. Oh, nice. Yeah, he's not. We have a lot of developer relations people on the show. And of course, Christina Warren from GitHub as well. Some really good developer relations people. I guess kind of that's what we do here is developer relations. Really? In some way. Thank you, Patrick Bajar for being L 'avocat du Cetain. I don't know how you say it. Du Diable. Du Diable. Du Diable. we appreciate always having you on in your perspective your eurocentric perspective uh i hope the blue fighting cocks do well on tuesday i don't they have a rooster on there i don't know if they call themselves the cocks i would if i were them but they do not uh the rooster is the uh french animal like this the the national animal because it's proud not not for others reasons it is proud and it has a beautiful beak and combative and annoying and it screams all the time it's very French and they're actually a little right that's what they call it exactly yeah and they uh they are going to be playing in the court of semi-finals it's very exciting against you say you're you're I'm I'm hearing this first for the first time it's happening on tuesday you will hear it all well you're in finland that's why they don't they don't care in finland let me make sure i got that right because i uh i have i'll check i actually have the yes france and spain uh noon pacific which i is either eight or nine p.m your time france and spain les bleus are undefeated in the world cup so far and then the following day is england argentina And you know what?

3:24:14I think a France-England World Cup final would basically be a recapitulation of 300 years of war. So that would be good. Wasn't it French-Argentina last time? It was. Yeah. I think it was. Yeah, Argentina won, I remember, but it was like penalty kicks or something. It was very close. Yeah. Well, in your honor, I shall be rooting for France on Tuesday. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It makes it more fun. there's so much more drama if you go it's really it's really an up and down thing this soccer think of me every every time something happens in that match you'll be like oh my god oh my god Patrick must be going crazy thanks to all of you for putting up with us for the last three and a half hours uh I hope you got to the end of this show it was a great show wasn't it you if you're still here wow maybe you should be a member of Club Twit.

3:25:08You obviously care. That's the best way to support what we do. Twit.tv slash Club Twit gets you ad-free versions of all the shows. Access to the Club Twit Discord. Special programming we don't do anywhere else. One of the features of the ad-free versions of our shows, by the way, they have chapter markers. That's awesome. There is a free trial at twit.tv slash Club Twit so you can find out what it's like to be a member. I would love to see you in the club. And thanks to our club members, our existing club members, for all of your support. We do twit every Sunday afternoon, 2 to 5 p.m. Pacific, 5 to 8 p.m.

3:25:41Eastern time, 2100 UTC. Club members can watch live. They have behind the velvet rope access in the club to discord. But frankly, the TV set in there is pretty crappy. So most of them end up watching it on YouTube, Twitch, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, or kick. We're live on all of those. After the fact, you can watch on demand at your own convenience. You can get audio or video versions of the show at the website twit.tv uh there's a youtube channel dedicated to this week in tech great way to share clips if you want to do that and of course you can also subscribe in your favorite podcast player that's what most people do that way you get it whenever it's done and you'll have it to listen to at your convenience maybe this time you're going to listen in three or four chunks because it's a long dang show thanks for being here thanks for your patience we'll see you next time another twit is in the can bye-bye He's amazing.