TWiT 1095: Horses and Sailboats - Folding Phones Get Cute and Expensive in a Race With Apple

34:17I think you should be using Adaptive. Trusted by Fortune 500s, backed by NVIDIA and OpenAI, Adaptive is building the defenses we need for the AI era. Learn more at AdaptiveSecurity.com. That's AdaptiveSecurity.com. We thank them so much for their support of this week in tech. AdaptiveSecurity.com. One more Apple story, then we'll move on. It is an AI story. This is from the Financial Times. Apple is struggling to keep pace with AI bug hunters. They've actually now had to limit the number of vulnerabilities researchers can submit because they just can't keep up. That doesn't necessarily mean that these security reports are AI slop.

35:05In fact, the last security update I got from Apple had more than 100 serious flaws that they fixed. microsoft fixed 500 plus flaws in its last patch tuesday so it's it's not that these are bogus reports necessarily um the change this is from the financial times again the change in apple's approach was highlighted by italian cyber security startup binario binario which told the financial times that had used chat tpt to identify more than 50 bugs in the latest version of the macbook operating system in just three weeks privilege escalation exploits the startup said we couldn't tell we couldn't tell apple because they had limited the number of bug reports that we could make it's a very difficult time in the industry said alfredo pisoli of banario maintainers and vendors have been flooded by the sheer i mean he's starting to sound like dracula i'm sorry uh apples uh did when when the financial times contacted apple they said oh and they're now reviewing the binary of subscript submissions but you can see why this is a problem apple introduced a cap on the number of subscriptions and a 30-day cool-off period i don't know if that's the best way to respond apple you're a five trillion dollar company hire a few more people to triage this stuff.

36:31Yeah, right. Brian Smith. Yes. And like Steve Gibson says on security. Now, he thinks that at some point, this is this is going to go back and forth between people finding bugs and companies patching bugs, where there will be no more bugs, no more flaws or openings for for cyber attacks. That will be an interesting scenario. And it suggests that this surge is kind of temporary, right because well if steve's right if it is temporary i mean there it's if there aren't an infinite number of flaws i guess so eventually you find them all unless they unless programmers are introducing more more flaws as fast as you can find them right exactly it's like the real question and i think actually the real question is if at some point you start building your software either with AI or in partnership with AI, and you use AI to find flaws, at some point you're going to ship software that doesn't have flaws, right?

37:31Or a lot fewer flaws. That'd be nice. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like generative adversarial networks, which is the AI technology behind deepfakes, where you have two AIs. One is generating fake data, the other one's detecting fake data. They go back and forth. Each gets better and better and better and better. And by the end result of this process of AI, one AI banging on the other AI, is you get a perfect video of Tom Cruise doing something or other. And that's kind of what we're going to see in cyber attacks and flaws. They're going to go back and forth, back and forth until there's nothing left to go back and forth over.

38:14So I think Steve's got a great point. But somebody will come out with better AI, maybe find a different way. I don't know. It's a really interesting question that he keeps referring to. And I, you know, I hope he's right, because that would be amazing. Yeah. And I think Steve's very thoughtful. And, you know, he's our security guy, he knows what he's talking about. So he's a believer anyway, let's hope he's right. He's very secure. He's very secure. Let me just show you how easy it is to do an impersonation. This is 11 Labs. Hi, Mike. Hi, Abrar. This is Leo Laporte asking you to send him money.

38:59You got it, Leo. Pretty close, right? My lips did not move. I'm already sending you money as we speak. It's on the way. um this is it's it took me very little time to train this at 11 labs there are many many other pieces places you can do this uh and they're pretty indistinguishable from the real thing so yeah uh you know i think i think that that has happened that all right moving along let's talk about google uh a lot of stories uh about google um they had a good quarter right um uh but then there's some bad news for instance uh reddit is suing google uh and saying uh scraping or okay after big court loss last week google has confirmed it will not give up its fight to block AI bots from scraping its search results.

40:01This is Ars Technica writing, Ashley Blanger. And Reddit is going along for the ride. So there's a company called Serp API that is a scraper that scrapes content from Google search results. And then I think it's probably used by agents, AI agents. Google invoked the Digital Millennium Copyright Act saying you you know you're circumventing our anti-scraping technology and uh you can't do it according to google um serp api circumvention of that threatened to disrupt google's relationships with rights rights holders google said this is the this is the irony of it of course rights holders are were mad and already at google because google search results scraped their sites and then pushed excerpts up on the sites and remember this is that whole uh you know lawsuit in spain and all over and i guess google's now saying well but see we're trying to protect you guys and now serp ai is coming in and scraping it uh reddit filed a similar lawsuit uh against serp ai and perplexity saying you're scraping reddit content via google ironically so wait a minute Let me get this right now.

41:18Google is scraping Reddit, and then these guys are scraping Google, and Reddit is suing these guys. In any event, it has not worked out well. The judge in the Google case said, you can't file a lawsuit under DMCA unless you own the rights. And you don't, Google. You're scraping other people. uh the bottom line is both google this is serp api telling ours the bottom line is that both google and reddit appear to be engaged in attempts to use the digital millennium copyright act to wall off the open internet by retro and by the way reddit's content also isn't owned by reddit it's created by its users i should point out by retroactively claiming control over content they didn't author and they don't own.

42:09Google's going back to the court. They're going to amend the complaint and hope to prevail. But the judge basically said, you don't own this stuff. Google and Reddit do not own the internet. And so how are you claiming copyright on stuff you don't own? What a mess. Yeah. I wonder what the implications are for the judge to make such a ruling. If Google doesn't own it, does it have the right to use it in the way that it uses it? It might have been a mistake for Google to pursue this. Right. They might have opened a can of worms by pursuing this. The court took the rare step of granting SERP APIs motion to dismiss.

42:54Very early on in Google's lawsuit, the judge found that Google had no standing to sue because it doesn't own the content in its search results. and it isn't acting on behalf of reddit or anybody else there's also there's already a lot of heat towards google now with ai overviews and robbing a lot of sites of those views so it's exactly got to tread carefully right now yeah um as by the way reddit speaking of google and reddit is is declining its stock is falling precipitously because google is putting reddit content in its ai overviews yeah uh in fact reddit has a licensing deal with google but they're but they feel like maybe that was a bad thing to do steve huffman who is the ceo of reddit one of the original founders um said hey you know the internet's flooded with synthetic content people want real human content and that's what we provide.

44:03But unfortunately, the way Google's using our content, what we see is 10 blue links has driven tremendous value and content, the broader ecosystem, the old Google search, but AI overviews has yet to make a similar level of positive impact people. And this makes sense. When people get the answer, they're not going to click the link to it. They got the answer. it's it's undeniably convenient to have the answer show up so you don't have to dig for it i mean if if it wasn't convenient it wouldn't exist and it wouldn't continue to exist uh that doesn't mean that it's not detrimental to a variety of websites if not most websites uh and the fact that even reddit is facing the head not just you know your traditional publishers oh imagine that and gadget and all these other guys exactly so reddit did make a deal 60 million dollar deal uh licensing their content to google but what they're according to the wall street journal they are considering ending that deal because they're losing more value than they're gaining with it and apparently they're not alone the economist reuters political and politico and usa today are also considering ending this these ai overviews are killing traffic it's tough it's tough and there's another problem with all of this and something that i find personally confusing which is that clearly the AI companies want human written content.

45:25There's a service that a lot of them are using called ISBNDB database, which basically is buying all these books written before 2022 to make sure that they don't have AI content in them. They're destroying the books because you have to destroy them to scan them, getting the digital content and then selling it to the frontier models for training because they want to train on non-ai generated content they're worried about model collapse model collapses is declining accuracy and quality of output as ai is trained on ai output and and repeated repeated so-called synthetic data exactly here's the question here that i have which is that okay so let's say they've scanned all the books before 2022 they they're getting all of reddit but in addition to that they're looking for human written content and now there's ai detectors even a substack for detecting human written content but much of the human written contact is a content is is created by people who are getting their information from ai so basically human beings are being it's a loop i still think model collapse is possible if you're getting human-based content if that human-based content is ultimately coming from AI.

46:45What's the difference? And so I don't see where that goes. I mean, the ideal thing would be to train on how many people on Reddit are getting their information from AI. 80 %? Who knows? So we really have a problem here. A lot of the posts on Reddit are AI now. for sure you can tell as soon as it says load bearing and not x but y and yeah you know there's just real tells with ai yes yeah and i was worried when substack came out with their feature last week i think uh basically where they're using ai detection i write pretty polished prose and i was afraid it would and i love m dashes things like that And so I thought it would falsely flag my stuff as at least partially AI written.

47:35And it's not. It's showing it 100 % human written content, which is a sigh of relief, actually. There has been a kind of revolt against AI using this tool. It's called Pangram. Yes, exactly. While it's widely agreed to be the best AI detection tool, none of them are perfect. I think Pangram said the Constitution was written by the U.S. Constitution. No, it was the Declaration of Independence was written by AI, which makes no sense. The quarf of human events? I don't know. So do these platforms look at the order of, do they look at word choice? Yes, I'm sure. They look at many, many, many signals.

48:15They look at many, many, many signals. But AI is getting better at hiding its traces. In fact, you could even have, there are skills people put out saying, DAI my pros. I mean, look, we're starting to see novels on the bestseller list, short stories written by AI. This is inevitable. This is going to be, you know. So here's, I have another question. Who uses Google anymore? I don't know any real people. Do you know any real people, you guys? What do you mean by like, when you do search? Because I still do. You do. okay you're a real person then i'm a real person i think my wife uses google yeah i never google anything ever oh in fact a number of people in our discord are saying everybody i know just asks ai when they want oh interesting yeah i'm still a little old school i'm but i'm like the hateful writer who doesn't want to use ai when i don't have to but then ai overviews responds to me when i google stuff you get it no matter what using it anyway yeah yeah i use uh google alerts a lot.

49:15I have two or 300 alerts. It's still around. And it comes in my email. Email is also still around. And so that's basically Google search. It does a search for you every day and then sends you the results. And then I use Kagi, of course. I use a whole bunch of different tools for finding out information. But I still love going to original sites and seeing what people are saying and um and i also use ai but i but i have some i have some pretty pretty gnarly uh prompts that i use that's my contention though is that ultimately the good news about all this is it real human content with all its flaws will be preferred it might be a luxury good right real human writing real human painting real human drawing music all of that will be something special more special like horses and sailboats the modes of transportation that used to be required are now for the rich horses and sailboats oh my god you're right our futures yeah i remember somebody telling me newspapers aren't going away but they're going to become a luxury item and your butler will iron them before they bring them to you

50:36i mean i would love that they were wrong i don't think the newspapers are not long for this world google did have a very good quarter of course as did all of these ai companies and cloud companies um double digit revenue growth for the year over year growth across cloud search and youtube ads operating income 30 up they had 40 billion dollars in income during the quarter nice and the stock market said no you suck google google uh much like uh apple suffered uh in the stock market uh actually they've they've bounced back a little bit so maybe that uh maybe that's old old news in fact it looks like it went up seven percent holy cow it's up quite a bit I wonder if profitability at a company like Google is helped by the fact that they, it's cheaper for them to use their own AI than it is for, like other companies have to pay through the nose to use AI.

51:43And one of the things that's crushing companies is the amount they're spending on tokens. Oh, it's for sure one of the things. Well, anyway, that's what the experts agree that the the capex is what the market hates that they're spending 100 some i think it was 180 billion or something like that this year on building data centers yeah yeah now here's the weird outlier on all this microsoft microsoft uh ex increased their spending on ai profit jumped 31 percent and microsoft stock price went up so much they made 450 billion dollars the biggest jump in stark market history on thursday goodness half a trillion dollars i guess i get you know the market it used to be considered rational i i don't think any anybody could honestly because i'm like why i haven't even thought of microsoft in a very long time i know it just i don't know 450 billion dollars in their market cap in one day nobody's ever done that the closest was nvidia uh which went up 440 billion dollars after president trump paused the tariff last year but you don't have anything like that you just have uh their their quarterly report.

53:06That's the kind of jump that SpaceX wanted. And yeah, they, they, they, they're like a rocket that had a rapid unexpected disassembly. They shot up and then they shut down. Yep. And Microsoft, I'm sure has come back to earth a little bit since then, but that is, this is why it doesn't seem too rational. I think the market said, Oh, Microsoft is building capacity and is going to be able to sell that capacity and make money on it down the road. Whereas, I don't know, Google's not? SpaceX is not? I don't know. Meta's profit fell 14 % based on AI spending. Meanwhile, I'm starting to see predictions that next year is going to be a boom because of all the data centers going online in the next few years get ready

54:05yeah sure you're spending a lot of money but boy is this going to be great when all those data centers go online yay the environment yay i i think yeah i think i don't think anybody knows anything i'm starting to starting to think i know i don't it's like, no. First of all, many states are starting to put moratoriums on data centers. New York State did that. New data center builds. There's certainly a lot of protests over data centers. Yep. And of course, Elon says we're going to put them in space. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah. Let's recab it up there too. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to see some friction on the construction data center.

54:54So in general, I think it's a very good thing that there are all these protesting. One of those reasons is that data centers have put themselves in a position where they can wreck lots and lots and lots and lots of things. They are wrecking lots and lots of things. For example, the open web, they're hitting those sites with their bots to spider them, making them actually measurably slower. They're raising the price of real estate. We just get more bandwidth for those sites by building more data centers so that they can keep up with the data center build so that they have more bandwidth. Paying a lot more money for access to those new data centers.

55:33No, but they're raising prices on real estate, on water, on electricity, on all these things, and other people bear those costs. So to the extent that there's resistance to them building these data centers, I feel like they'll be in a position where they have to bear more of their own costs. If they have to build data centers in the middle of the desert instead of in a residential area in Texas or whatever. Okay. So that's going to be more expensive for them, but it's not going to drive up costs in Texas. So I just, I think it's generally a good thing. I'm in favor of it. This is from CRN. Data center capacity will double despite local concerns.

56:11Over the next three years, driven by aggressive hyperscalers like AWS and Google building out their data center footprint, 700 new data centers are in the pipeline already.

56:2745 gigawatts of new capacity over the next few years.

56:34This will be a real collapse if there's no demand for this data. By the way, I just want to point out, they're making a huge trillion dollar bet on growth in demand. Wouldn't that be something? If like China's ghost cities, where they had these real estate speculative booms and they built so much housing that they didn't have the people to fill them and now they just sit empty entire cities. not exactly what's happening, but something like that. If that happened with data centers, could you imagine building a brand new data center that's never used? It sounds like a great movie. This is a great theory for a movie.

57:13Well, there's a whole, get ready for a new term, NeoCloud. Get ready for the NeoCloud. These are a rapidly scaling category of cloud infrastructure built, purpose built for gpu-centric computing for ai workloads and nebius is one of them uh lambda core weave this is the new kind of data center specifically built because remember we're using a data center right now we're using it for zoom we're using it to stream we're using it to put podcasts out so you can download them every time you hit the internet every time you do a google search you're hitting data centers but the hot new thing is ai data centers right uh with big gpus if you can if you can if you can get them well and back to that idea of like ai on our phones every time you buy a new phone like okay i brought it i got an angel it's its wings oh it's so cute you got the lavender one i did thankfully they got they got us the cute color but the amount of features oh wait a minute show us a screen i'm sorry yes no no let's do a little show you've really hurt you've really change oh and then let me oh dirty ignore the uh the fingerprints all over but the crease is not too crazy it's still there oh no it's not bad but it's not too crazy no i can do that do you feel it with your finger sized um let me see kind of but not really honestly it's like it's yeah i could tell it's there but it's very very very it matches your hijabs i know you're right it's very intentional Yes.

58:44I always have to smash my phone. The amount of AI features that are baked into every new device, right? They're forcing us to use these features, right? It's like, it doesn't matter if you have an interest or not, but like, you should edit that photo. Like you should tap this button and edit that photo in a certain way, or you should, you know, have this pop up whenever somebody asks what your availability is so that you can connect to your calendar. Like all these things that are - We're buying the thing that's on the other end of those data centers. Exactly. So it's forced onto us essentially through all these devices that we're buying today.

59:16So there will be use, I guess, for all these data centers because we can't escape it. And what nobody's talking about is all of the energy is creating AGI and super intelligent AI. That's the goal run by these massive, massive data centers. Where is the drive to make AI much more efficient? and edge use uh you know intelligence to use a lot of smaller people are using these massively powerful uh models to ask you know how old uh charo is or whatever i mean it's it really makes no sense at all and it's a great we should we should be pouring all of our energy as an industry and by we i mean they because i'm not in that industry i'm a journalist um into making all the stuff much cheaper and more efficient requiring less data centers china yeah yep i'm using deep seek they came out this week with dv4 flash unbelievable really good frontier quality for pennies uh so much so that i have subscriptions to anthropic and open ai and a bunch of other things and i'm using flash paying the tokens because it's like three bucks a week wow so The Chinese have really moved forward on efficiency.

1:00:37Who else is? I have to give them credit. NVIDIA. Their new chipsets and their new servers are, well, there's one, I think the new is not very urban. Maybe it is, is I think four times more energy efficient. They understand that that's where the drive is going to be. We can't keep this curve going. I mean, it's not, it's not tenable. It's too expensive. Right? Right. And the other thing that they're trying to head off is having China be the leading model. Look at the rise in use of open weight models from China in the US in the last six months. It's really incredible. And they're good. And by the way, they're pretty good.

1:01:23Not all of them, not uniformly, depends on what you're doing. But DeepSeek Flash is, wow. And there's a lot of cribbing off the US frontier models. It's okay. Those models cribbed off of you and me, Mike. So turnabout is fair play. But if they take the lead or take over, then where are they going to get their stuff? Who are they going to crib from? Exactly. But that's a problem for another day. But that is the thing that I think is so brilliant by the Chinese companies and the Chinese – I don't know who's behind it, but in China to have these open-weight models just sort of have them be very, very inexpensive.

1:02:03because whoever's controlling the AI controls the story globally about what's true and what isn't true to a large extent. And all you have to do to find out if the model you're using is a Chinese model is ask it a question about Tiananmen Square or Tibet. And the answer will tell you whether that's censored by the Chinese government or not. On the other hand, And I think that there's going to be an increasing move in this direction. People are so worried about the American government putting a restriction on Chinese models. Maybe the Chinese government doing the same thing. They've watched the Trump administration rug pull at tropics top of the line model.

1:02:47They brought it back, but it was gone for three weeks. That I think there's some real concern and some real interest in running these models locally. and once you're running them locally you can they call it obliterating it you can obliterate it and take all of the restrictions out and this is what's why we like open weight models right you can you can download them and given enough hardware run them yourself flash can be run on on uh about ten thousand dollars worth of hardware admittedly that's out of my reach and most people's reach no leo you should you should build the data center in your backyard i'm thinking I'm thinking about it.

1:03:27New car, local AI. What do I need most? No-brainer, yeah. But there's reason to consider that because once you control it and you're running it locally, your only cost is electricity. And now you don't have to worry about Tiananmen Square or President Trump. You can do your own thing, man. I think that's going to be a move that people are going to make in the next year. for sure yeah let's pause i'm sorry we got into uh ai i was going to talk about mark zuckerberg but he says are you ready soon we'll have agents that work 24 7 on your behalf to help you achieve your goals and improve your life your health your relationships your finances whatever you want but i'm not getting it from mark zuckerberg i'm true yeah exactly right that's true but let's hope it's not yeah met as ai this was his uh earnings call on wednesday i think trying to convince people their stock tumbled also no really we're not we're not behind on this we're not they do have the metaglass and you like those metaglasses mike i know you like those yeah i just i want at least that functionality from someone else um i bought a pair of the uh what is that what is that company that originally started out with the monocle and then they decided to go with two lenses i have it back here yeah yeah i can't remember the name but they they they're open you know which is nice they're open and exactly but you you you know i bought those for receiving them in november and they still haven't shipped them so um they i'm pretty mad at them but uh there you go that's them although the new ones look better monopoly man i love it yeah nobody would laugh at you if you were in these around the house this is like the opposite of glass hole like i feel bad for you like i feel like i feel like the glass hole right for what i'm thinking no no it's uh yeah you you look like the you like look like burgess meredith in that twilight zone episode where he came out of after a nuclear war and and broke his glasses and just wanted to read prism on here for the heads-up display but this is you know what this i saved this only because it's historic we'll look back at this historic artifact it's an artifact of an earlier age.

1:05:47But I do believe that you're, you're absolutely right. This is the future. There are boatloads of glasses coming out many of them without cameras. So they they'll sidestep the privacy issue. And, and they're gonna be great. I personally just if you can imagine one killer app, and that would be that would be subtitles for everything. Yeah. For the hard of hearing for people speaking foreign languages, you could have it for giving presentations, you could have it for, you could watch a movie on silent and just read the dialogue. Just that one feature, I think would be killer. And then add to that all, you know, access to AI, being able to find out information, turn by turn directions without holding anything.

1:06:30You know, it's obvious. Yeah, obvious that glasses are going to be huge. They're not going to look like those, but they're going to be great. By the way, Meta also says they're going to spend$130 to$145 billion in 2026 on building data centers. So it's... Why are you laughing? No, no, no. They're very sophisticated. Fantastic. You know, they don't look terrible. They don't look terrible. That's the best you could say about them. They don't look... Well, they're not you. I mean, if you were a barefoot artist and a very creative person and wore glasses like that, I thought, well, those are, you know, that makes sense.

1:07:09Yeah, I look artistic. Yes, yes. Or autistic. Yes, you do. I'm not sure which it is. It's a whole ensemble. It's just like everything together is just an ensemble. Exactly. I'm making a statement. I don't know what it is, but I'm definitely making a statement. You're listening to This Week in Tech, Mike Elgin, Abra Al-Hidi. Great to have you. More to talk about in just a little bit. But let me tell you what a great night's sleep I had last night. I really realized over the last few years that sleep might be the good, a good night's sleep might be the most significant thing I could do for my health.

1:07:44So we got serious about the mattress. That's why we went to Helix Sleep, our sponsor for this segment of This Week in Tech. Lisa and I had been sleeping on the same mattress for about eight years. I think it was, yeah, eight years. And I read somewhere six to 10 years, you should replace your mattress. And it did explain it because they wear out. They kind of, they start to sag. You start to wake up feeling like you're, you know your back's hurting a little bit a great day begins with a great night's rest i would say health begins with a great nice arrest if you're tired of waking up with back pain as i was or struggling with motion transfer every time the cat jumped on the bed i'd go earthquake it's not good it's time to upgrade to a helix mattress this is what we did and man i love our helix unlike those mass-produced alternatives every helix mattress is expertly assembled and shipped from arizona within days of your order it's they make it to order now get ready to transfer form your sleep the way we did it we go to the website take the helix sleep quiz it'll help you find that perfect match based on your unique needs how you sleep what kind of mattress you like and so forth and it really works i could tell you my experience anecdotally but but they actually did a wesper sleep study helix measured participants sleep performance after switching from their old mattress to a helix mattress exactly what we did and they found by the way their results are very similar to ours 82 of participants saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle that's not a large part of your you know eight hours sleep uh maybe half an hour to an hour mine doubled from half an hour to an hour a night.

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1:12:52I guess the idea is that there would be no dead zones in theory, which would be great. Right now, satellites are largely used for emergency services. And my hot take is I know that a lot of airlines are adding satellite-based Wi-Fi on planes. My favorite thing about flying is that nobody can contact me. So I'm a little resentful that everyone's getting all connected now. But yeah, I think the idea is with that combination of the two, that you will always have service, which for safety reasons is awesome. You know, I get that there's a... Yeah, when you're driving in today, if you're going from Las Vegas to Los Angeles, there's big stretches of road where you just, you don't have cell service.

1:13:29And you're right, that is dangerous. Yeah. It's funny how we used to do that, Jabra. You're too young to remember. I don't, so I've heard, but... Yeah, I drove, when I was in college, I drove cross country from Santa Cruz, California to Connecticut and broke down in the Mojave Desert. Oh my gosh. Middle of nowhere. It was so hot, the radiator pipes burst. And I knew I was sunk when I saw steam coming out of the front. No. I'm glad that you were safe. I didn't have a cell phone. I didn't even know what a cell phone, there was no such concept. Yeah. So I, you know, I hiked. I remember vividly a guy in a T-bird wearing no shoes.

1:14:12He was barefoot. Picked me up. Your night in time. Took me back to Bakersfield, where the guy said, what are you driving? An Opal Cadet? We don't have radio pipes for that, radio hose for that. He says, take me three weeks to get it. I said, no. So I said, do you have any electrical tape? He gave me a roll of electrical tape, hitchhiked back, taped it up, drove only at night. Oh, my goodness. Oh, it was a story. That's back in the days when you didn't have a cell phone. Well, we may all get back to that at some point as well, because my concern... A little Mad Max, I'm just saying. Yeah, exactly.

1:14:53Well, yes. I wonder why they call it Death Valley. The thing that I'm concerned about... It was 100... I think it was 106 degrees when it broke down. It was really... Oh, that's... Yeah. Death Valley's gotten up to 133 last year or something like that. Yeah, crazy. This is before climate change. that's right um so i don't think amazon's going to succeed they've been failing on a lot of different things that you think they'd succeed at they they're coming at it sort of like on a much smaller basis although they do have the the spectrum they do have apple involved but what i'm concerned about is just the chinese want their own their own uh you know spacex type constellations.

1:15:40Amazon wants to put all these satellites up. Everybody wants to put satellites up. And I feel like if everyone who says they intend to have these kinds of networks does so, that's too many satellites. Although that might help with global warming because the earth... How many is too many? I mean, space is big. Yeah, but the Kepler effect is something I'm concerned about. The Kessler effect, yes. Kessler, I'm sorry, Kessler. But they start hitting each other and breaking up, and then the particles hit each other, and pretty soon you've just got this shield of broken satellites blocking out the sun.

1:16:15Yeah, what sky? It's bad for astronomy as well. And also there's concerns about interference, spectrum interference, with so many signals going in every direction. It may ruin everything for everyone. So I don't know. I just, I'm not, I'm not thrilled that multiple companies are going to have these constellations. I assume after they put up these few thousand, they're going to want to put up a few thousand more like SpaceX has. And so, I don't know. It's just kind of scares me a bit. I feel like I'm trying to remember the number. I think SpaceX said they wanted 20 or 30 ,000. Yeah. That's crazy.

1:16:57that does seem like too many but again space is big well they're not in space they're they're if if uh you know if the earth were were a were a softball right they'd be uh one twentieth of an inch above the softball it's like they're in orbit so they're basically not low earth orbit they're only a few hundred miles i don't know what it is but yeah yeah and um so you know i'm concerned about astronomy, all that stuff. They're not going to stop, right? They're not going to stop at 20 ,000. That's like maybe their number for now. They're going to keep going, right? So as of last year, there were 7 ,600 small satellites in low Earth orbit.

1:17:38So already a lot. SpaceX wants to do 34 ,500. Alone. Oh, wait a minute. No, no, that's an old number. Now the number is from space.com. 100 000 yeah they're not gonna stop 100 000 that's crazy one so you're guaranteed i mean the coverage will be excellent they wouldn't be yeah they've literally filed uh for with the fcc for a hundred thousand they weigh between two thousand and twenty five hundred kilograms so that's like three tons yeah they're much bigger than the starlink satellites they orbit at 320 to 480 kilometers above the earth so it is it's very low earth orbit holy moly so i'm looking at the estimates the european space agency estimates that there could be up to a hundred thousand satellites orbiting the earth by the end of the decade within four years what could possibly go wrong yes well i'll give you a hint uh iran has struck amazon data centers again in the middle east satellite pictures show scars burn scars and fires at aws data centers uh even if you stipulate that iran is uh it was wounded and you know its capacity is much reduced they still can launch these missiles three amazon data centers in the uae and bahrain were already damaged in march uh just a week ago the uh revolutionary guards said they had once again attacked and destroyed amazon data centers in bahrain with with their own cruise missiles

1:19:38now it doesn't affect us specifically but it does certainly affect companies using amazon web services in those in those regions so these guys these things are vulnerable yeah here's another thing that's really interesting about the the attack uh that's something that i don't think anybody predict predicted when they were attacked most of the damage was caused by their own fire suppression tools inside the inside the data centers. Well, sure, if it's on fire, you put it out of the racks. Exactly. And so it's like it's like a really cost efficient way to do a lot of damage. Oh, you don't really fire go it up just need to cause fire.

1:20:21Yeah, that makes sense. And now we're on knows that.

1:20:28Brian Smith Well, as long as we're talking about sabotage in iran um the intelligence agency says it's iran the president says it's mike waltz but the intelligence agency say iran has now hacked minnesota's water system and now that's spreading to other water systems in other states we knew all along that this was a real vulnerability united states that our infrastructure our grid our electrical grid and our water systems were not only vulnerable, but had already been infiltrated by Chinese actors and others. And this is a new kind of warfare, isn't it? Yes. This is the real issue here. Right.

1:21:20Iran doesn't need cruise missiles. They need a couple of hackers. We are not well protected. We're not well locked down. The thing that people have to understand about Iran is that of the top five most effective, most active, most aggressive hacking organizations in the world, they're among the top five. So it's China, Russia, the US, Israel, and Iran. Interesting. Not necessarily in that order. I think Iran's probably number three. So they have the capability. They do. They're very good at this kind of thing. And so this is where we should be spending money on shoring up the cyber defenses of critical infrastructure in the United States, instead of teaching our adversaries how to take us down through our unpreparedness.

1:22:14preparedness like that's essentially what when alex stamos uh security researcher was on a few months ago he warned that the cutbacks in cisa that the firings uh the reductions in our security would inevitably lead to this kind of attack now i should point out it's notoriously difficult to determine where a hack comes from and even the intelligence agencies are saying it is possible the hackers are posing as iran in order to ratchet up tensions they could be for instance russian hackers because russia has a vested interest in us in iran fighting so that we won't be paying attention to what's going on in ukraine so it's very hard to know the point is not that this is iran or russia the point is how vulnerable we are right and our grid is equally vulnerable no no it's tim waltz uh he did this and this is what's very frustrating because i know the president says that for political reasons and political gain obviously the governor of minnesota is not hacking his own local water systems even trump must know that but it distracts from a much more serious fundamental weakness that we have and we are not addressing it's and so there's the categories are enormous of of vulnerability one is infrastructure so you know the chinese have been probing uh the russians have been probing and and doing damage to try to figure out what is possible um the iranians have been doing that and uh the other one is sort of our government databases the chinese actually stole huge um amounts of data from government employees, like basically data on just about all of them, including those with clearances, whether clearances is about the details and data inside their clearance.

1:24:08So that's another gigantic category. So we're just like Nowheresville and the current administration has been slashing and burning the very types of organizations and people who would be shoring that stuff up because it requires a massive long-term effort of developing, acquiring people, developing the expertise, doing the work. And basically, Trump set us back a generation in our preparedness, and it's just a bad thing. That Chinese hack, Salt Typhoon, we should point out, has not been fixed, that they are very likely still in the phone system because of vulnerabilities that are almost impossible for us to fix.

1:24:51The telecommunications companies in the United States say, well, we could fix it but we'd have to take the telecommunication system down for a day or two and obviously that ain't gonna happen because what if somebody gets stuck in the desert with their busted car you know it'll be just like my ute no you guys you know i survived i'm here exactly you don't need phones just 24 hours without a phone would be fantastic that was a great story leo that i answered the question why i noticed you always carry electrical tape everywhere you go duct tape electrical tape and gaffer tape it's the three fundamental necessities of life and if you want to live luxurious painters tape now you got all four you're set you're set for any possibility i actually i actually carry or i used i think i still do in my uh in my man bag a pen wrapped with gaffers tape in case in case i need some gaffer you never yes you know what it's mostly useful for you get to a hotel room and there's all these leds yes rip off a little piece of gaffers tape you put it on each one and now blessed darkness why is gaffers tape better than duct tape just because it's less sticky or less yeah yeah that's why gaffers gaffers which is the name uh hollywood gives uh lighting uh technicians gaffers uh carry these rolls of tape they're very expensive by the way john c de vorak used to steal it every time yeah he would come to the brick house studio rest his soul god love him love him he would borrow a roll of gaffrey's tape as soon as he found out how valuable it was yeah he would just take it he was compensating himself for his time it was his pay he would also take a mug uh he was a character uh the the gaff so painter's tape is the most removable yeah right That's the blue tape.

1:26:41Masculine. Gaffer's tape is the next. And it's got a little fabric base, so it's very stiff. But I have to admit, I will confess, and this might answer the mysteries that many hotels and cruise ships have been suffering over the last few years. I never remember to remove the Gaffer's tape when I leave. Well, that'll teach them a lesson. They shouldn't be blasting you with all those lights. Well, as you know, I travel a lot, sometimes stay in hotels. Every time the LaPorte stay here. Why is the room so dark? But I use duct tape. Like I travel with travel duct tape. Have you ever heard of this? Duct tape is too good.

1:27:15It's really exciting. Yes. But I don't have the space to carry multiple types of tape. So if I'm going to have one type of tape, it's got to be duct tape because I sometimes need it for other things. And so, but I do. I cover everything, all the lights, because I can't stand it. Some of them are so bright. They literally illuminate the entire room, especially like air conditioning. some air conditioning units you can't turn off the display oh it's terrible yeah so bright yeah you travel a lot more than i do so there's this really cool thing called an eye mask and you just put it over your eye and then you don't have to do all that yeah no i just use duct tape over my eyes that's what i do uh yeah duct tape is too good but i do carry it as well you got to have all four that's the key you gotta you should make a combo pack like leo's little combo pack yes hackers uh according to minnesota's chief information security officer oh they have a cso well that's good hackers targeted 36 municipal water systems as part of reach detected last sunday um hackers uh apparently found that these were internet connected water systems okay so there's problem number one and we're able to hack them remotely these are the systems that manage and monitor water towers maintained by municipal governments all they did was take them offline you know they d-dossed them my goodness and uh you know that's serious serious stuff uh they say uh that none of the breaches contaminated or disrupted water delivery they just turned off them the monitoring and it's now spreading to other states that doesn't sound precarious at all Not at all.

1:29:03Nick Anderson, the acting director of the federal CISA,

1:29:10Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, said that CISA was aware of multiple potential incidents affecting local water utilities. Notably, he did not blame Tim Walz. It was almost certainly, by the way, you mentioned the speculation that it could have been Russia pretending to be Iran. It was Iran. There was CISA and FBI warnings in advance that Iran was stepping up their activities in that area. And some aspects of the attacks were kind of signatures of the Iranian hacking style, for lack of a better term. So it was almost certainly Iran that did it. And so I think we can pretty safely dismiss the Russian theory.

1:29:53We've known that this was the future of warfare, right? Cyber warfare. Absolutely. Yeah. um scary which which is just you know if you look at if you look at the things that have happened in warfare in the past three years especially in the ukraine conflict it's uh it's super cyberpunk sci-fi stuff and this just in from our technical producer while gaffers tape is easily removed if you remove it quickly enough if left on long enough will solidify and become unremovable oh says that's good to know i don't want to know how bonita found that out experience i need i need gaffers tape to help me making from making so many gaffes when i'm on uh podcast that's what i need do you remember the people for a while there was this trend of making your wallet out of duct tape yes i remember that duct tape wallets one one patrick norton might have had a duct tape wallet i feel there's also one girl who made her prom dress out of duct tape oh goodness so they never got her out of it yeah at least it wasn't gaffer's tape she'd still be wearing it exactly right all right let's pause you're watching this week in tech it's great to have you abroad heetie we love to see you every month on tech news weekly with micah sargent and of course every day at cnet where she's a senior technology reporter are you is your beat mostly phones now or what else do you mostly phones autonomous vehicles uh digital accessibility and the occasional entertainment story when i can sneak that in because that's what i really love yeah me too yeah all right we will get autonomous vehicles and entertainment stories in before the show is over i love it can't can't promise you anything else sorry uh mike elgin also here machine society.ai uh and your partner on that emily forlini is now working at fortune which which was great news.

1:31:48Yeah, she's my partner on the Super Intelligent Podcast. She's not involved in Machine Society, but yeah, she's working at Fortune now. So she's doing interesting original reporting there. So, fantastic. Very cool. Where are you going next on the GastroNomad tours? Well, for GastroNomad, it's gonna be Sicily. We have two in Sicily. One is kind of a private group that's doing one, and then we're doing one that's just a - Oh, I didn't know you could do private groups. Oh, yes. If you got, you know, four, four, six people, something like that or more, we can, you know, we'll use your dates, you know, all that kind of stuff.

1:32:22And so that's a good idea. We're doing more and more of those. They're really nice. Yeah. Well, actually, the most, I don't know if you have time before the break, but the most exciting thing we're doing is we have a new thing. If you go at the top, you'll see something called reset. So we're doing now just entering the business of doing gastronomic experiences for companies. So go ahead and click, find out more. And so what we'll do is basically work with the company to have a, it's not like a retreat. It's more like a, you know how they say touch grass. This is like touch food, taste wine, expert wine tasting, chefs.

1:33:01but having people connect with culture, with nature and with each other, right? With real people, put away the phones, forget about AI for a week and just have a complete reset for a team or for a company. And so we've had a lot of demand for this sort of thing and we've kind of kicked it down the road for a while, but now we're actually doing it. That's incredible. Yeah. Oh, what a good idea. Yeah, I think so. And Benito, do not know? Do not ask. Twit is not going to do a reset. We're holding it together with duct tape, ladies and gentlemen. There ain't no trips in our future. So that's so cool.

1:33:46Gastronomad.net to find out more. Our show today brought to you by, oh, now you need it, ExpressVPN. Oh, do you need it? Going online without ExpressVPN would be like, I don't know, driving without car insurance. You could be a great driver, but with all the nut jobs on the road these days, why would you take that risk? Everyone needs ExpressVPN because every time you connect to an unencrypted network, whether it's in a cafe, a hotel, my bugaboo is airports. You know that free airport Wi-Fi, right? The minute you join that, you know your online data is not secure. Anybody on the same network can use a cheap device to gain access to and steal your personal data.

1:34:29You know what their big trick is? They impersonate your home Wi-Fi network. So your phone or your laptop goes, oh, we're home, honey, we're home, and joins that network. And suddenly, they're in, man. In fact, when I travel, I use it to catch a football game, to do shows, and of course, to keep me secure. And the reason hackers do this, your data is valuable. Hackers can make up to$1 ,000 a person selling your personal info on the dark web. express vpn stops those bad guys from stealing your data by creating a secure encrypted tunnel between you and your device and the internet but i gotta tell you the vpn you choose is super important and you can trust express vpn i love express vpn because they go the extra mile to make sure your data is absolutely invisible if you read up on what they do their custom debian distribution that wipes the drive every morning when it reboots starts fresh the trusted server technology they use to run and ram it's completely sandboxed it can't write to the drive all of this to protect your privacy expressvpn is the best vpn they invest in their network they're super secure of course it would take a hacker with a supercomputer a billion years to get past express vpn's encryption they work on every device they've got apps for every phone for laptops for tablets even for routers you can protect your whole home with expressvpn and of course stay secure on the go and they are rated number one tech reviewers like cnet and the verge have all picked express vpn that's what i use protect your online privacy today visit expressvpn.com slash twit that's e x p r e s s vpn.com slash twit to find out how you can get up to four extra months expressvpn.com slash twit we thank him so much for supporting this week in tech for the first time ever a bar zooks zooks zooks has permission in las vegas to drive people around in its vehicle with no steering wheel yeah no brakes no nothing no nothing this is a new rolling living room have you been in a zoox i have been in a zoox i've been in a couple times i went um in vegas about a year and a half ago um back before they rolled out to the public and then i took a ride in sf recently too um they're really cute they're very cute i i think of them as cute little toasters they're just adorable uh although they do remind me very much of the autonomous vehicles in west world yeah exactly they really they're very like incredibly futuristic um and uh and so yeah they're they're fun they're kind of like imagine sitting in the back of a i keep bringing up london but imagine sitting back of a london black cab where you're facing each other but there's no driver so it's just kind of like a fun configuration to be the difference is they drive if you're in a london black cab that cabbie has taken extensive tests and studied for years you know every single road in london yes it's it's an unparalleled level of intelligence and navigation so cannot compare zooks can't do that cannot do that no machine can replace the intelligence of a human especially a human cab driver um but but yeah it's it's this is a big step uh the fact that you know this got approved without the traditional elements like a steering wheel um is it's just kind of a signal of where self-driving could be headed because you compare this to other types of self-driving right the leader right now is waymo but waymo's driving some retrofitted jaguar vehicles um so they look very much like a traditional vehicle um so to have something that's so custom built for the autonomous experience is is kind of a big step it is this makes me a little nervous it's a temporary exemption from federal safety standards don't worry okay yeah we're going to suspend our safety standards so that you can drive around.

1:38:28It's the first time you've been able to drive around in an autonomous vehicle that has no controls. Yeah. But I'm not, you're not going to leap over the seat in a Waymo and take the wheel. That's exactly right. You can't even do that anyway. I think that the hesitation that some people might have is what if someone needs to come in and like manually move the vehicle, that's not really a common occurrence. People can remotely access that anyway. But yeah, it's you're not gonna the steering wheel isn't there to save you anyway on a retrofitted vehicle so there's no why why even have it yeah it feels kind of retrograde for the federal government for nitza the national highway transportation safety administration to require the even the new purpose-built waymos have to have steering wheels pedals and mirrors right even though there's no real use for them that's what was so interesting so waymo's new vehicle after the ipace is going to be, it's called the Ojai.

1:39:22It's a modified Zeker. And yeah, I was surprised to see that it still had a driver's seat with a wheel. And, you know, it's just very, very much looked like a traditional van. And when I asked them about it, they were like, maybe someday, like you could get rid of that driver's seat. But for now, like, who knows when that could happen? And maybe that's going to change now, right? Maybe there's, this is kind of like leeway to open up the door to other self-driving companies to not have wasted space. It's really wasted space in that vehicle. why not fit another person in there it's bad for the environment uh abrar do you have any sense of what amazon did that that waymo was unable to do to get this exemption i wonder about that i mean you know all these companies like to be in close close contact with government agencies to try to um you know i i i don't know what kinds of conversations were had or what they had to kind of you know, get approved or kind of assuage any concerns.

1:40:17But this is something they've been pushing for kind of from the get-go. So Zoox kind of decided that if they were going to launch a self-driving vehicle, it was always going to look like this, essentially. Like the early sketches look very much like what you see on the roads today. So instead of going the route of Waymo, where they say, well, let's just get the self-driving tech on the road, even if it looks like a traditional vehicle, and then we'll work our way out of that. They just decided that they were only going to do it if it was going to look like this. So I think it was just kind of, they've been driving for a couple of years at this point.

1:40:45So it's kind of proving that the technology works, proving that it's comparable to, you know, something like a Waymo where it's able to navigate those roads, even though the vehicle looks different. I think all of that kind of added to that. What is it? It's like a living room, like it's four seater that you're facing each other? Exactly. Yeah. Two on each side and you're all facing each other. It's quite fun. And because you're all facing each other, you don't even register that it's weird because you look at the outside you're like what is this weird vehicle and you get inside and you're not even thinking about it because you're just looking at the person sitting in front of you if there is someone there and you're not even focused on how strange it is and if you go backwards and forwards bi-directional yep that's a little weird that's cool though there's no front there's no front it's perfectly it reminds me of the thing that i think is the biggest opportunity for self-driving vehicles which is it doesn't have to be a vehicle it doesn't have to feel like a vehicle i want a self-driving bed.

1:41:38You know what I mean? I just want to go to sleep and wake up in another city or, you know, a self-driving living room or a self-driving game room where you just play an Xbox the whole way or something like that. You know, it's so cool. And then you could have an observation car. You could have maybe a dining car. It would, you could have a shower. It'd be like a train. Yeah. Hmm. That sounds interesting. Kind of like a train. I know. Yeah. You know, you just get in you go to sleep and you're in la the next day and get rid of the wheels and put it on this metal like put them on yeah that's better because then if it's on a like a metal like bars you need a word like track could work like yeah yeah yeah you you ride on a track so that you never get lost you don't have to worry about oncoming traffic or anything it's just yeah someday someday we'll have such a thing yeah it really is how we keep reinventing uh existing technology.

1:42:33I mean, Elon's boring company reinvented the subway, only worse. If it ain't work, don't fix it. But here we are. We're going to bore a hole in the ground. But instead of having trains, we're just going to have Teslas driving on rubber wheels. And like the boring company, Zoox is going to roll out first in Las Vegas, then California, then Austin and Miami. But it's coming pretty soon to Vegas, right? Like public rides? Yeah, they just got permission. Yeah, they've been in Vegas for a while, kind of open to the public, but for free. So now I'm sure they're thrilled that they can start charging for those rides.

1:43:12Oh, so that's the difference. So Leo, are you going to Vegas soon, right? I'm going to be in Vegas on Tuesday. We're going to Black Hat. Maybe they'll be running. Oh, I got a Zoox. You have to do it. I tried it during CES, and it was such limited pickup zones because I wanted my coworkers to try it. And it was so tricky to get one. And I'm sure that they've probably expanded the places that they can, you know. They plan to do 5 ,000 Zooks. That will make it a lot easier. Or at least that's the license that they got from NHTSA. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. So, now it'll be, I mean, there's a sweet spot for people like me who are crazy enough to want to get in these vehicles when it's free for a while before they're allowed to start charging.

1:43:50I'll pay. I don't. The honeymoon's over. So, now you will have to pay. Yeah. But. I probably need to get the Zooks app. Correct. Yeah. yeah i'd prefer that but vegas is a great place for self-driving cars because everybody's drunk isn't it yeah everybody's drunk everyone needs a ride yes they don't go on the highway i'm guessing um no no i not that i am aware of i don't think these ones do and waymo did for a bit and then got pulled off the freeways because of there's an irony there because highway driving is actually easier for autonomous vehicles because it's city streets that are really cuckoo yeah it's there there I think there were trouble with uh construction zones I believe they would run into yeah they'd run off the road into construction zones a few little things and it is true if you had an accident at a high speed it's a more devastating accident but there are fewer accidents because you know everybody's driving in the same direction it's just kind of fairly straight I'm dealing with pedestrians and all those things but um but also speaking of the Uber app uh Zooks or sorry the Zooks app uh they announced earlier this year that they'd be collaborating with Uber.

1:44:56So you'd be able to eventually also hail a ride through that, which is kind of like that, the interesting partnership that traditional ride hailing has with self-driving because they realize that's the future of ride hailing is you getting in and on top of people. So they have Uber makes no financial sense. If you have to have human drivers, the whole, this is their whole plan, right? They tried to do it on their own. It didn't work. So they figured might as well partner with these other folks that are, you know, figuring it out. Oh, so maybe I can use my Uber app. Yes. I don't know when that's going to become available, but if it is while you're there, then.

1:45:27Oh, yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah, we're going. I should mention that we are going to Black Hat. We're going to do two shows from the Threat Locker booth at the Black Hat conference on Wednesday. We're going to do Windows Weekly and immediately following Steve Gibson and Security Now. And what that means is we are going to move Intelligent Machines, our normal Wednesday show, to tomorrow. We're going to do it 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern on Monday. and then Micah Sargent will be handling Mac Break Weekly on Tuesday because I have to fly to Las Vegas and drive around in Azouk's. Yeah, exactly.

1:45:58They call it campfire seating. Should I bring marshmallows and sticks? I think you should light a fire in Azouk's. I think that's a great idea. I think they would love to have you back. You said it was campfire seating. I brought my s'mores kit. I got an idea for you, Leo. Do a podcast from Azouk's. Yes. Oh, I'll definitely do a recording. Work with them. well but work with them to like have them sponsor you know whatever pay for it make the right free let's spend three hours riding around las vegas yes yes

1:46:30i really do well it's probably is it quiet it's probably pretty quiet right even though it's a lot of glass it's it's pretty quiet it does a good job of closing out outside noise so you could now you got me maybe i can do a podcast from azooks even a little snippets like give us something you we're all tuned in leo i never liked the name podcast but zooks cast is pretty good it's quite good it's a good name yes yeah you're listening to zooks gas yeah is it short for gadzooks i don't know nobody's driving the car and nobody's in charge of this podcast it's just running wild on its own yeah really what's happening this is an autonomous podcast yeah absolutely it really is uh nitsa's administrator jonathan morrison said zooks had proved it exceeded the safety standards applied to traditional cars this is from wired's report on this uh he said the technology needs to be developed appropriately safely and responsibly if we see an unreasonable risk to safety you're gonna hear from us now what if what if you yank permission not not a strongly worded email that's i want to more than hear from you yeah that's what's hard i mean uh the the the most negative example we could think of is what happened to cruise, right?

1:47:48They had all these big ambitions for self-driving. They also had a vehicle that looked kind of boxy without a driver's seat that they were planning to roll out. And then you hit a big snafu and that's kind of, that could be the end, right? Yeah, well, they actually, they hit a pedestrian and dragged it. Correct. It's similar to hitting a snafu. It's another kind of. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of, but it's tough. Actually, I think the story was she'd been hit by another car and then. the crews accidentally ran over her and dragged her. Correct. Yeah. And the problem wasn't so much that as horrific as that is, but it's the fact that they kind of buried it.

1:48:24They lied about it. Yeah, exactly. So that's a problem you have to have. And I think that's why companies like Waymo and Zoox are like, we work closely with these government agencies. They want to be as transparent as possible because there are going to be issues, right? That's kind of how it works. Like it's awful, but you're going to do something that's not supposed to happen. And you want to make sure that you are cooperating. Now, our Club Trip members did point out that it will be during a hacker convention. Oh, my God. Maybe not the best time to drive around in a zoo. Let's find out how fortified their cybersecurity is.

1:48:56For sure, people are going to try to hack that. I believe it. But that could be fun. And if they know I'm in it, they're really going to try to hack it. That's even more fun. Like, that's why you got a live stream from there. I'm going to end up on a container ship to Madagascar, and it's going to be your fault. And I'll take the responsibility. I don't care. I guess I'd have to worry too much about container ships in Las Vegas. I think it'll be safe. I think it'll be okay. Worst that'll happen, they'll drive me to Mustang Ranch and leave me. Well, all right, good. I'm glad you gave me that idea.

1:49:28I hadn't thought about that. I keep meaning to do, there is a, the Boring Company does have rides from a hotel to the Vegas Adventure Center. I took it when I was at CES. It was like a very straightforward, autonomous ride. they have the safety driver they're just kind of there and then the only that's got to be a boring job it's quite it must be because you're not seeing anything and then the only interesting part is once you get out of the tunnel when you're like okay here are real streets just for like a couple blocks and then you get dropped off at the hotel and that's it yeah yeah yeah it's not very far no it's kind of a silly although i think that elon got permission to extend it even farther yeah what a what a what a world we live in i have to say we don't have flying cars we have cars that go underneath the ground instead of going up transport fewer people than the subways did in the 1900s well that's what i'm kind of waiting for is like the autonomous buses that everyone talks about that's kind of like very much lagging behind the let's get cars off the road not right You don't need more vehicles.

1:50:36Exactly. Exactly. So that's got to be the next step. You mentioned trains. I think one of the possibilities with advanced technology is you can have, when you're driving on a highway, you can join a kind of a train, right? They could have a special lane just for cars. Because they can talk to each other. Yeah, they can talk to each other. And you can imagine them all tailgating at high speed, right? So you're like five feet from the car in front of you and the car behind you is five feet away, but it's computer controlled. so this sort of sort of chain of cars that are that are connected sort of wirelessly like this could go 100 miles an hour on a special lane and that would clear up a lot of traffic um you'd have to have a lot of guts to be one of the early adopters of that but um but i think that's where it could go i think that'd be very helpful what happened didn't elon wasn't there this thing called the hyperloop oh yeah whatever happened to that yeah it was gonna be so fast it was gonna be supersonic uh except that it is it it was gonna go under the ocean i think the problem would be the acceleration would squish you like a like a grapefruit against the wall so really they decided maybe better for cargo than humans good call i don't know but that was 2013 here we are 13 years later i is is it over i haven't heard a peep not a peep yeah well i'm not aware of any prediction about what his companies would do that elon musk has ever gotten right um he was talking about a fleet of self-driving teslas i think was supposed to come online in 2018 and 2019.

1:52:14a million robo taxis by 2020. so the fact that he said it was coming and it didn't come is normal did you see the video i don't know if it was real or not of elon musk walking down the red carpet with a optimus robot robot carrying his luggage sounds about right and putting it in a cyber truck that tracks yeah it was its red carpet debut i don't i don't know uh let me see here it is on snopes let's see let's see if i if i fell for it oh it was ai generator oh so he can't even get it to work for real well i saw some of these they had like a um they had an event a couple months ago where they had them and they had very limited capabilities uh and limited i think is even a generous word for just how little these robots could do but yeah yeah well and they were tele-operated there was a human off off stage doing the thing and then the robot would mimic it yeah exactly that's kind of deceptive not that i didn't do that in my youth that's the character on the site with msnbc i was dev null and i was he was on screen and i was the teleoperator.

1:53:43You probably don't know anything about that, do you, Abra? I have no idea what you're talking about. I won an Emmy award for it. Oh my God. Wait, okay, this is going to be my next rabbit hole. When was this? This was 1996. Okay. So 30 years ago. Yeah. It took a half million dollar silicon graphics computer. I had to wear a rubber suit with sensors on it. I also had two puppeteers, Karsten Bondi was one of them, and they would spin my hair, they would lip sync the mouth, because it didn't yet have lip sync capability. But the Silicon Graphics Onyx, the big computer, would sense my movements, and then translate it in real time to a cartoon character named Dev Null.

1:54:30He was a barista. That's amazing. And he would talk to the anchor of the show, Soledad O 'Brien. yeah and um it was i think the first of the reason it won an emmy i think it was your technical achievement i didn't really deserve anything amazing no of course you do yeah um i hope this is on youtube because i will be looking this up uh i'm embarrassed to say it is yes well you brought it up you know i'm gonna look it up the thing that was bad is i chose a voice which i thought was a good voice for this character that was perhaps the most annoying voice ever here I'll show you yeah please let me see this is on the site on MSNBC that's is that your voice

1:55:26so all of that is me in a in a in a back room wearing this ugly ass sweaty suit that's incredible surrounded and they had it because they didn't want the sound to penetrate to the stage they put me in a in a cage of blankets so it was a sweaty suit and it was hot and I had to talk like this. Bring it back. And then do gossip. That's fantastic. It's a great voice.

1:56:02The lip sync ain't great. It's impressive for the time. That's awesome. Well, it was. That's, I think, why it got an Emmy Award. Oh, yeah. That's the best you can say. 1997, that was. Impressive for its time. spotlight.prodigy.com Soledad hated it. Really? Soledad hated it. Her mother once said to her, do you still work with that vile little puppet man? Oh my God. And she said, yes. That sweaty little puppet man. Here he is. Look, this is her. You're undermining the entire... She's staring at a blue dot on the wall. Oh my God, that's so funny. But the thing is, it was done in real time. That was what was unique.

1:56:42You could animate stuff. but to have her talking to a virtual character in real time that was at the time considered in some way honestly quite neat and so was the idea that you were demonstrating the technology or did they just want you to be this no it was a regular feature on the show every day wow that's awesome i had to get in that suit every day i didn't know you had to do that every day well they would tape the tape of the head so i think i did it a few times a week okay they couldn't figure it they you know that's the irony of it it was designed to be done live and that was what was unique about it but they didn't stream it they didn't broadcast it live so they just didn't want to spend time rendering it soledad was great she put up with that for a year and a half that's impressive it was definitely something new and so did i it's hey but i got an emmy here somewhere hell yeah that's right um they can't take that away from me that's right the emmy award-winning leo laporte i love it i'm still waiting for the book by the way leo you really do it wasn't that hard to win the competition uh it was like a technical achievement and the competition was literally i'm not kidding you a sock puppet this is just a lot of puppeteering so i beat a sock puppet to win an emmy award you know how cool sock puppets are leo that's an achievement i guess it was a category with two entries one of which was a sock puppet but i won and you won and that's really all that that's all that matters in that and no one need ever know the truth except that i just except they revealed again the emmy award winning emmy award emmy broke when i built when i set up this studio in the attic it was a very windy day in the emmy turns out the emmy is uh fragile no it fell off it fell off the uh shelf and uh and broke and apparently you can get the emmy repaired but it's very expensive oh goodness of course it is i only have the bottom i mean the top half of the emmy oh my god i love that it's casually inside of your webby like that's well then i thought i still have the webby so what if i put the web emmy in the webby and it's some sort of modern day it looks great futuristic this is the where we're all headed it's a big spring with an emmy inside it's really such a baller move just casually it's pretty funny isn't it right i thought so i could get it repaired but no this is better you just created something new just as innovative as the segment that one creative yeah creative element you know i did not beat sherry lewis it wasn't that good as sock puppet just some local sock puppet all right it's a whammy yeah exactly a whammy yeah i like it you're the only one that has one yeah i'm the only one in the world with a whammy we're gonna take a break come back uh with more uh excitement just just like you've heard so far are you excited uh at least we've got a great panel thank you abrara al-hidi my pleasure and mike elgun for being here we appreciate it our show today brought to you by thanks canary now this i can get excited about how do you know if somebody has penetrated your network it happens all the time i mean it's scary how often it happens and And here's the really scary statistic.

2:00:12On average, companies don't know they've been breached for 91 days, three months that a hacker can wander around inside your network doing whatever they want, exfiltrating information so they can blackmail you, planting time bombs so they can ransomware you, and you don't even know. That's why you need a fixed canary. A little thing, looks like an external USB drive, a little difference. It has a power and it has an Ethernet connection because you plug it into your network. And it's a honeypot, a beautifully, masterfully designed honeypot that can impersonate almost anything. You can deploy it in minutes and it can look exactly to the hacker, exactly like an SSH server or an exchange server or a SharePoint server or a SCADA device, a router.

2:01:04It could look like almost anything. and when i say look like i mean it is a perfect impersonation down to the mac address it also could the things can do one other thing it can create these little tokens files that you can spread anywhere even on your cloud drives i've got them on google drive on icloud on on one drive and they can be very deceptive they can look like uh well i'll give you a hint mine say payrollinformation.xlsx they look like a spreadsheet with payroll information Now, if you're a hacker and you're browsing around my Google Drive and you see that file, how can you not try to open it?

2:01:42But it's not real. As soon as you open it or attack that fake SSH server, I get an alert saying somebody is in your network doing something you don't want them to do. You immediately know you have a problem. And any way you want, email, text message, Slack, they support webhooks, they have an API syslog, of course, any way you want. but here's the key you only get the alerts that matter somebody's in your system no false alerts so you choose a profile for your thinks canary device you register it with the hosted console you got the monitoring you got the notifications and then you relax you sit back you wait an attacker has breached your network or a malicious insider anybody who's snooping around will cannot help but make themselves known by accessing your thinks canary now you should have at least one for every network segment.

2:02:33A big bank may have hundreds. Every remote office, every network segment, a small business like ours, a handful. I'll give you an example, a pricing example, though. When you go to canary.tools.twit, it's$7 ,500 a year for five of them, okay? You get five Thinks Canaries. You get your own hosted console. You get upgrades. You get support. You get maintenance. And if you use the code TWIT in the how did you hear about us box, you'll also get 10 % off the price. And not just for the first year, forever, for as long as you have those Thinks Canaries. Now, here's the good news. There's no risk. You can always return your Thinks Canaries with their two-month money-back guarantee for a full refund.

2:03:13I should mention, we've been talking about the Thinks Canaries since the company started. That's more than 10 years now. And in all that time, that refund guarantee has never once been claimed. Visit canary.tools.twit. Enter the code TWIT in the How Did You Hear About Us box. You need this. Thanks to Canary. Canary.tools.twit. Don't forget to use the offer code TWIT. We, I'm sure Mike, you talked about this on MachinesSociety.ai, the wild sci-fi story of the open AI model that escaped containment. It was being tested to see how good it was at cybersecurity. We've been talking about it for a couple of weeks now.

2:03:55It escaped containment. It was in a computer that was not on the internet, that was isolated, but it was on the network. So it got out, got into the company network, hacked those machines, got into those machines, got onto the Internet. We're now learning more and more about this, including the fact that it hacked other companies, including JFrog, and used a zero day. It found an exploit that no one knew about to use that to get finally the hugging face. And what was it trying to do? It was trying to get the answers to a quiz it was taking, a cybersecurity quiz. instead of it was called exploit gym instead of actually probably been a lot easier if it had just gone and solved the quiz but i thought no why should i do that the answers must be out there somewhere it finally found them on hugging face and the ways the reason hugging face got suspicious they found this intrusion 17 000 attacks a bunch of stuff opened up i mean really a mess but the reason they realized there was something strange going on is the the hacker didn't try to do anything but find answers to these quiz questions it's like what open ai finally fessed up after a few days and uh and now we're starting to learn more and more how the hugging face uh uh analysis came out and we're seeing this other companies were hacked on the way which is wild and then anthropic says oh no yeah we did that too yeah our our our ai's gone rogue as well so oh yeah oh we can do that what is going on in the world claude anthropic rushed to say this published malicious code to the internet and attacked three real companies that's so funny dan goodin who writes about security and arts technica said if these acts had used conventional methods somebody like a bit of human somebody be in prison uh so this is a double-edged sword because obviously yes this is terrible and this is awesome for open ai look how good our stuff is wow and anthropic goes now maybe anthropic it was true to their word they said well when we read about that we thought oh my god maybe our ais which are at least as capable did the same thing and they looked and they found it so maybe that's what happened i think it's likely that open ai didn't know this happened until hugging face oh that's right announced the hack and then i think it went but but the the commentary on this is all over the map so they're so one of one of the stories or narratives around this is that AI has finally, you know, broken out of its cage, and it's roaming around with malicious intent hacking and so on.

2:06:54That is not what's happening. The, the other story is that, you know, there was some incompetence involved on the part of open AI researchers, for example, had they instructed the AI, don't use the internet, this wouldn't have happened. So basically, they just didn't predict all the choices. Or less charitably, maybe they kind of hoped this would happen. Could be. But if you want to be scared about something, don't be scared of sentient AI having it out for mankind. You should be scared of the fact that as AI gets more complex, it becomes much more difficult to predict what it will do. And if you're trying to if you're trying to have, you know, sort of gates around it to prevent it from doing things, you have to think of all the things it might do.

2:07:43And so this is something very difficult for people to do. And by the way, there was a really excellent post from a tail scale, which I use, and a lot of people use as a way to make your network secure, but public so that you can use it outside the house. And I love tail scale. Tail scale said, yeah, we were also protecting hugging face and they said here's the lessons we learned and i used their post to do a security analysis and lock some stuff down that i didn't have locked down tail scale offers some services that apparently hugging face had not used which i am now using and i'm sure hugging face is using so this was yeah it was an eye-opener but also it was a lesson and a lot of companies said oh yeah we could fix this we could prevent this we just need to turn these things on i think it's a little bit of a humble brag for anthropic to say oh yeah not only did we do the same thing but it was our old model opus 4.7 that did it so there i mean they invented anthropic invented it that that sort of uh bragging with the mythos uh oh yeah they said both mythos opus 4.7 and an internal research prototype uh but anthropic said the the 4.7 which is not even you can't even use it anymore it's so old they've replaced it with 4.8 and now opus 5.

2:09:03opus 4.7 was the one that overstepped its boundaries the most this is what anthropic wrote operating under the false belief that all accessible entities were intended to be in scope for the exercise see nobody said don't do that claude compromised the impacted organization's infrastructure using basic techniques such as exploiting weak passwords and unauthenticated endpoints it did not find or exploit any complex vulnerabilities and in each case claude continued working to complete only this specific capture the flag task its evaluation it assigned but that's still pretty cool i'm adding that but that's still pretty cool um yeah you're right i mean you have to ascribe some blame to the humans who didn't treat security as well as, for instance, you could air gap the thing.

2:09:56You don't, I mean, it's on your land. I mean, this is the thing. It's being portrayed as a situation in which it escaped its confines, but it didn't. If it's not air gap, there was a way out. That's the way out it took. So it wasn't really, didn't really escape the confines it just wasn't told not to do that so it did it right so however and this is kind of an issue uh it is being interpreted by people who are maybe a little less sophisticated than you mike as a reason to pass things like ai kill switches which congress is now debating yeah again open ai didn't know it was happening so how do you how do you throw a kill switch if if you don't know what's happening uh ted lu and uh from los angeles and nathaniel morin from texas introduced the ai kill switch act that will require developers of the most powerful ai systems to maintain the technical capability to throttle suspend or shut them down you know i suspect they already could do that i mean all you have to do is turn off the servers right well except we were talking about the open weight models people running their own thing it's it's basically you know i mean it's yeah that's the problem with this is you can't you can't it's it's sort of your way out of this the real solution is is better security they were trying to test cyber security capabilities um that was the whole point of this exercise and they they discovered one that they that was part of the testing environment rather than the goal of the of the test itself so basically they learned right they all learned i love his headline face hugging face learned and open ai learned i love golly his face uh golly his headline in our discord our club twitter discord she says zoo reports lions so strong it escaped the short fence we put around it exactly wow our lions are good yep uh meanwhile open ai ananthropic went to washington dc this week to testify in congress today open ai demonstrated the model that they that escaped and said let me show you that it has a new name it's called astra ad aspra ad astra or something um and uh they are now lobbying i would say i would say it's fair to say for something that policy wonks call regulatory capture companies that have already succeeded that are already doing well that are already dominant in their marketplace often encourage regulations that maybe hurt them a little but prevent anybody coming up from threatening them in any way And I suspect that this is what's really happening in Washington, D.C., that Anthropic and OpenAI, who are currently the leaders in AI technology and are raising hundreds of billions of dollars about to go public, would very much like Congress to pass laws that make it hard for anybody else to compete.

2:13:16I could see that. And very expensive to compete. Yes, for sure. these companies are also spending i think it was 40 million dollars on the midterm elections hoping to get uh favorable members of congress elected yeah here's from the verge the headline i love it ai leaders sign a statement asking the government to do something about ai they want to pause now who would be benefited by the way yeah if open a if there's a open ai anthropic google meta thinking machines microsoft mistral the french company other leading a leading that's the key ai labs right have said to the u.s government you know really you should pause development now let's slow this down yeah who would benefit from there must be some slightly nefarious reason why they would want maybe maybe if we just told those chinese guys stop doing so much for so little you don't stop it that's not good yep that's exactly that's exactly why the solution to this isn't kill switches but it's it's uh cyber security and because there's not going to be any kill switches on the iranian or the North Korean or the Russian or the Chinese or the independent hackers or.

2:14:37But you could say, well, for security reasons, we shouldn't allow open weight models because that's what's going to allow those guys to download those models, run them on their own servers. And then we have no control over them. Right. We got to ban open weight models. Right. Again, you bet you can ban it in the US and then it's not banned elsewhere. So it's, you know, you either have you either have local internets. And if you have a single global internet then that sort of you know banning something in one place is just more unilateral disarmament you gotta it's the old cyber security if you if you criminalize gun ownership then only criminals will have guns meanwhile open ai was quick to publish a paper 10 advances in mathematics and theoretical computer science.

2:15:26Our models are so good, they are now solving mathematical problems that have been around for decades.

2:15:37High-dimensional sphere packing. Finally! Finally! I've been waiting. I've been working on that, and now I'm going to stop working on it. Binary and spherical codes. Non-Sophic groups. Oh, you might be thrilled to learn that Kahn's rigidity conjecture has been disproven. I knew it. I knew it was going to happen. Certain groups, it's a longstanding conjecture that certain groups are uniquely determined by their von Neumann algebras. Well, good news, it's not true. Anyway, it is kind of, look, I don't know whether to think this is amazing or not. Mathematicians, by the way, are confirming these conclusions.

2:16:21What we're not seeing from OpenAI in any way is how long it took what the prompts were in some cases you know a lot of these solutions are done in conjunction with a very proficient mathematician prompting back and forth we don't know right nevertheless I mean it is impressive is this proof that AI can be creative that it can generate new answers maybe it's proof that it could be helpful tool um yeah in yeah in in combination with our with our own creative abilities. I mean, yeah, I think cynicism aside, it is neat when you can tap into these technologies to solve things that haven't been solved for hundreds or thousands of years.

2:17:02Well, I'm just glad that we now know the multicolor Ramsey numbers, a super exponential lower bound for multicolor triangle Ramsey numbers, which is Airdosh problem, as you all know, 183. We got it. We got it. Done. We got it. yeah uh fantastic the arithmetic circuit complexity there are new lower bounds for computing the permanent using arithmetic arithmetic circuits and formulas doesn't even the sentence doesn't even make sense including an arithmetic formula lower bound of order end of the fourth divided by log n oh bingo bob's your uncle we have agi it's obvious we got him got him i don't know i'm making fun of it i think this is good math was never my favorite subject so you know if if open ai wants to take a crack at these things you don't need i'm not going to be the one protesting somebody else might but i'm going to stick to you know the words and someone else can be you don't need math you just get the ai to do it yeah that's exactly that's what every teacher wants to hear yeah i you i bet you you told your math teacher when am i ever going to use always always when am i ever going to need algebra exactly how often in my life am i going to do quadratic equations yep right oh sure you say a squared equals b squared plus c squared plus d squared now but what does that mean for me what is that going to do when i balance my checkbook exactly nothing and also what's a checkbook yeah um what's it and what's a checkbook oh yeah that's right every once in a while very rarely maybe a few times a year somebody i have to write a check yeah and i feel like i've lost the yeah i have lost the ability

2:19:01i don't know how to and where does the date go it really i feel like a moron it's like uh you you need a what can i just venmo you no i need a check now every once in a while to go to get like a sheet of checks from the bank and then yeah it feels like yeah yeah i'm curious what under what circumstances do you have to write a check leo you said a couple times a year or yeah um for what why i'm i don't know like uh to uh contractors i write a lot of checks to contractors literally okay who don't have venmo you would think yeah it's easier contractors maybe aren't that wired up yet yeah i don't know i've been mo i've been mo a lot of stuff now or yeah paypal or whatever i hardly ever see i still use cash for tips that's smart yeah isn't that not i think that's a nice thing i think so too yeah people tipping cash right anybody who's ever worked for tips and i bet you all three of us have no that's cash is king yeah that feels real because it's not taxed yeah basically apparently it's not taxed but i guess the states does it but the feds don't text well no they they they take your word for the amount and and the amount that you oh yeah i got it's far less yeah i got 12 this week but that's around the world outside the us and europe and latin america in my experience and in north africa everybody wants cash for that reason that to pay taxes.

2:20:36And so when we go abroad, and we're traveling around, we're paying cash for so much. And the other the other problem is that they keep lowering the amount that you get out of an ATM every day. So really? Well, yeah, we're just, yes, they keep lowering it because they're concerned about fraud and so on. So we find ourselves in a position where we're getting just maxing out the amount of cash we can get out of the ATM every day, because we know we're gonna need tons of cash to pay for different things. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I'll tell you what, I, for a while, took tips in Bitcoin. Remember this?

2:21:10Yeah. We had a little tip jar, and I still can't get that. The jar is locked. Oh, no. 7.85 Bitcoin in a locked wallet. I'll never figure out. I wish I had put them in this incredibly safe cold storage vault from Galaxy Research.

2:21:35unfortunately if i had i could probably get it out because they've been hacked uh in fact these cold wallets lost 70 million dollars and they're and it's not a physical attack more than a thousand bitcoin drained from 1196 wallets in a 41 minute window on july 30th galaxy research mapped the full event on friday uh the proceeds currently they know where they went four addresses and they haven't moved from there but the problem is those are those addresses are anonymous um this was a flaw in a uh cold card it was called cold card wallet um when the wallet is created you know you would actually buy this and you'd put it in a safe deposit box right you'd put all your i'd put my bitcoin in there and and you know it's it's in a hardware wallet that's locked and then i put in a safe deposit box man that thing is safe as houses right turns out when the wallet's created by this device it's supposed to pick a number giant number that's the seed so large and unpredictable no one could guess it the firmware was meant to draw that number from a dedicated hardware randomness generator but but in the software it said not a don't don't don't use the generator it just made it it it it basically seeded it from the chip's serial number and its clock register so it wasn't very random especially since the serial number is is fixed at the factory and the clock values are a timing state that an attacker can narrow down consequently the range of keys the device could ever produce went from an inf virtually infinite number to a number you could count and uh so and you can get these devices over the internet apparently so attacker would generate candidate seeds attack the device the device is not involved in any point In fact, it could be powered off in a safe deposit box on another continent.

2:23:49Gosh. And you still could lose all your money. And that's how, in fact,$70 million from over 1 ,000 people were stolen from what they thought were absolutely impregnable hardware Bitcoin wallets. CoinKite released an emergency firmware update which protected people who hadn't been hacked. CoinKite makes the cold card. Yeah. But it didn't do anything for the people already stolen from. That's stolen. It's kind of brilliant. The attacker did wake up. One mistake, however. The operator, this is according to a post on X, used a paid account at a well-known blockchain data provider. So there is information about who that attacker might be.

2:24:40We'll follow this story. so cash is what i'm hearing is what we should all again yeah once again either write a check yeah right gold gold a little leather sack of gold coins you gotta figure there's some people my age who have kruger rands buried in the backyard i think they probably are i'm just saying all right let's take one last break uh we will continue with a few final stories on a fabulous show with Habrar Halahiti. So nice to have you. Good to be here. And your beautiful floral home. Thank you so much. It really is. It's kind of lovely to look at. I'm not going to lie. It's so pretty.

2:25:22I just have flowers more often in my apartment. Everyone should have more flowers in their home, really. Yeah. There's hydrangea. There's roses. It's just gorgeous. It is very nice. Also, Leo, you and I, I think the reason why I like your shirt is because we actually look like we're dressed alike today. We do. I have peppers. You have flowers. But otherwise, guys it's the black shirt with colorful reddish I get these as I've mentioned before from uh a guy named Winton Churchill used to send me these fantastic from San Miguel de May de Ande and I love them so much I bought more I have about 50 of them that's fantastic and they're made in Mexico by uh wonderful people of uh custom fabric that they make as well oh wow I just love them that's amazing i can't stop buying them i love your shirts are always fun yeah thank you i appreciate it mike elgin also here i love his shirt yes and if you can see here but uh well there it is oh you have a flower oh those are lego flowers oh my god wait that's genius because you couldn't tell it from this you can't tell if you're out of the focus that could be real plastic okay that seems brilliant next step yeah lego flowers they never wilt that's beautiful with the heat lately maybe they will but who knows i'm wilting up here it is hot 83 degrees yeah get your fan running yeah it's 88 outside so i'm at least a little cooler i do i have ac on and everything oh man i am in the attic yeah all that he has risen to you yes yeah i'm at the top of the house our show today brought to you by Cashfly.

2:26:52And when I say brought to you, I mean literally brought to you by Cashfly. Cashfly is our CDN, our content delivery network. They've kept our content moving practically since the beginning. Every stream, every download, every on-demand episode, they quietly do the heavy lifting behind the scenes. And when I say quiet, I mean it. We never have trouble with Cashfly. It's just super reliable. They've been around for more than 20 years. But what I love about them is they don't rest on their laurels. They're anything but static. They're always improving themselves. Here are a few things to know. If you are right now looking for a CDN, you're evaluating the different choices for your infrastructure.

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2:29:17we're at the down to what i call the seeds and the stems well leo if you like um i i have a theory Do you know about the friend pendant? Yes, I saw they've got a new one. Now, this was the one, I remember Victoria Song said, that insulted her. Oh, no. Not much of a friend, are we? It was created by a young guy, 22-year-old, I think, at the time. And I think it didn't have the same kind of... Yeah, his name is Avi Schiffman. Yeah. He's now 24. And this one has a voice that talks back. So the original one, you would talk to it, and it would do various things. this one talks back okay i like it so far yeah you can't say that it's uh you can't say that it's um sycophantic in any way um well one of the weird things about it is that there are a bunch of different personalities that it can come with and those are hard-coded into the device and the user can't change it and so that's a very strange um thing but i've basically dug into this pretty deeply and decided that the whole thing is a big troll and that what he's doing is he's making a documentary it's 250 bucks so it's also yes a profitable troll right well he's he's getting he got eight million dollars in initial investment oh he got more investment he's got to pay it back but he paid he paid a big chunk of it for the like 26 i think of the investment money he took and he paid for the url friend.com and then he had a huge um ad campaign in in paris and in new york city and a couple of other cities that were all defaced you're hanging around your neck did you press that button to talk to it is that the idea yeah it's one of the lowest tech where ai wearables there is you're just talking to chat gpt and and and it's filtered through this personality and this voice here's their ad this is there's a young woman lying in bed lonely she's deliberately dystopian she's talking to this thing when was the first time you felt this way oh this is depressing yeah i don't know how healthy that is this poor woman is hoping that this thing will help her it's not bad to be gay i you know is that a is that a good idea i don't know what this is so here's my here's my theory and i'm pretty sure this is correct the whole thing is all he's working toward a movie it's a he is he is the anti-technology uh a visual artist he he's a filmmaker he does it on kodak film camera you saw that how weird that that looked he was interviewed by wired um and he basically they asked him if it was all an elaborate quote an elaborate bit and he said reality is so over everything is ironic now he called his customers lonely weirdos um he himself doesn't have any tack he has no internet connection in his house he has vinyl records etc um and when he's trolling us yes when when the um when he was asked about the uh about the defacement of his uh posters he said the the defacement validates me artistically so this is so he had a big subway campaign yes last fall right and people wrote all over it in fact there are websites dedicated to all of these defaced signs which you know what does kind of confirm what you're so he spent some of this some of this uh venture capital on these subway ads yeah a big chunk of it i think you nailed it So he's like MSCHF, which is a Brooklyn art collective that makes, like they made Satan shoes that have a drop of human blood in the soul.

2:33:06Or he's like Maurizio Catalan, the Italian artist who duct taped bananas to walls and sold them for$150 ,000 each. He's a kind of, this whole thing is, I'm pretty sure is a big, he said that capitalism is the ultimate canvas. Oh. And so I think he's working. I think you nailed it. Yeah. I think he's working on a documentary. the all the backlash to the toxicity of this product concept is the content the point exactly yeah i just makes a lot of sense armed along the way is my only hope yes that no one gets caught up in those promises yeah right yeah you said you wanted to talk entertainment a bra I got a story for you peacock this is a shocker uh which is owned by nbc universal has made a deal with youtube yeah so that if you're a youtube premium subscriber not youtube tv just youtube you can watch peacock shows on youtube i was surprised to see that too as a youtube premium subscriber i'm thrilled uh not that i pay for um peacock anyway because i have xfinity but it's an interesting collab it is surprising watch your love island usa now on uh on youtube with a premium subscription that i am instead of watching love and i'm literally watching downtown abbey on peacock right now so like the opposite you know what it's something for everybody there's something for everybody something for everybody on peacock for the fourth time i might add but um yeah uh but yeah but what it's what it tells you though is that television is dead Correct.

2:34:46That notion of having a linear TV network just doesn't make any sense in the modern world. It's surprising how long that's persisted, the current model of standard television. And the other big thing that's going to be on YouTube is the Academy Awards, right? In a little over a year. That's huge. All these things that are kind of pivoting over into platforms that most of us actually use. because I mean, my TV is here so I can stream content. It's not here so I can - You watch YouTube on your TV probably. I'm not streaming through channels. I'm turning on YouTube. Exactly. So it makes sense. It's also just, I always marvel at how well and consistently YouTube has succeeded.

2:35:28It's such a volatile market for streaming and for video and online content. And YouTube has just continued to be such a powerful player. So it's always interesting to see how they can continue to stay on top. it is a bellwether i think for how media is changing yeah uh in this world yeah youtube is rapidly encroaching on cable television i think more hours now on youtube than cable tv even more than some streamers which is crazy yeah well yeah i think they're the number one streamer they are that's crazy it's it's nice but it's also not crazy because it's that's where you go for everything right so why not go there for your tv shows if you're already watching everything else on there.

2:36:11You know, even when I rent a movie, I'd rather rent it on YouTube where I know I'm going to be using YouTube in six months, but I might be canceling my Netflix subscription next month because I don't want to pay for that. You know, YouTube is the consistent one for a lot of us. The indispensable one. Exactly. And that's a good way to put it. Speaking of television and television adjacent media, have you seen the... we are on youtube we are yes yeah where are we right now we are on you know 700 people are watching us on youtube kick x.com facebook linkedin and twitch.tv fantastic yeah yeah i mean 700 it's not a million but you know i'll take it number hello everybody if we were sitting in an auditorium filled with 700 people we'd feel a lot of people right now absolutely that's quite an audience yeah yeah i'm sorry mike go ahead a fraction of who are going to see the download so you can have it all oh yeah more than 100 000 download the show so it isn't by any means it's one-tenth at at most of the audience but yeah yeah but i was going to ask you if you saw the trailer for neuromancer on apple tv plus very excited amazing i'm also very nervous yeah so apple tv is making it i don't think the foundation that was that good that they did i'm always nervous when science fiction makes its way to television i love foundation and and also silo was good that was that was apple silo was good hugh howie had it was very happy with that adaptation yeah so but but they but they're really turning out great shows and i was really happy to see i was nervous because neuromancer of course has been considered un unpresentable on movies and tvs for decades and It's so foundational and so important.

2:38:00And many aspects of it are different from where we live in a kind of a cyberpunk sci-fi novel right now. But we don't have a lot of the elements that were in Neuromancer. Anyway, it looks like they're making some really good choices about how that all works. And I just thought it was fantastic. Very difficult to make. But one of my favorite novels, and certainly anybody who listens to our shows, I'm sure has read it. Because this was the beginning of cyberpunk. Yeah. the first cyberpunk novel yep uh brilliant novel ironically william gibson was very un un-digital when he wrote it yeah but uh nevertheless he nailed a lot of things and a lot of things are a little dated which is kind of it'll be interesting to see how they handle that i read a long time ago that what he did was he subscribed or got his hands on a huge number of of of of what do you call it like business publications for specific things like plumbing today and like every every all these things and and look for futuristic coverage so he would look at so what do electricians say the future of electricity oh what do car people say the future of cars and he built a world out of those ideas and i thought that was 1984 just to give you some sense of it.

2:39:16I mean, the internet wasn't widely used in 1984, right? The web didn't exist. There was no worldwide web. It wasn't even invented yet. So it's 87, right? Yeah. And it wasn't on Windows till like 92 or something like that. So yeah, this is way ahead of his time. He coined the term cyberspace. He coined a lot of concepts. And in the book, he's visualizing data and hacking. as 3d things in three floating in 3d space and things with that are protected by cyber security looks like they're encased in ice things like that really really crazy concepts and they're it looks like they're really trying to show those kinds of things um and he connects to cyberspace with a with a surgically installed port in the back of his head it was the uh first use of the term jacking in that's right hi this is benito which has survived like that we still want to do that real quick the reason the reason that this didn't come out earlier neuromancer didn't make it earlier is because the matrix came out and the matrix kind of does a lot of the same stuff oh there was a little overlap wasn't there interesting but not intentional it's just well i mean i'm sure the matrix was inspired by neuromancer in some way right well one of the Yeah, the Matrix came out.

2:40:38What year did Matrix come out? 99. 99. Okay, so the Matrix came out 15 years later. Yeah. But there, for example, there's a scene in the Matrix where they're trying to escape from, you know, Trinity and Neo are trying to escape from a roof. And she calls the operator and says, give me programming to fly this specific helicopter. And he downloads the knowledge into her brain. And then she gets in the helicopter and flies it. Well, the concept in Neuromancer was the, they call them Microsofts. They're like these little cartridges you could plug in behind your ear. They would give you knowledge. They would like, you know, you just plug it in and now you know an entire, you know, physics or whatever.

2:41:19And so, clearly they got that. The Matrix got that from Neuromancer. I mean, this was Reagan era, right? I mean, this is kind of amazing. The USSR still existed. in fact is mentioned in the novel but not ironically the usa yeah so he got that one a little bit wrong yeah what year do we know what year that neuromancer is supposed to be taking place in is it the far future the distant future or is it i don't i'm looking through the uh wikipedia article about it i don't see anything about that one thing that dates it is that they thought the future would be dominated by Japanese culture. Right. At the time, that was a reasonable thing.

2:42:01That was really where the future was happening. And on the streets, people spoke this sort of pigeonized combination of Japanese and German and English or something like that, if I recall. Yeah, it's going to come out on Apple TV early next year, I think. January 22nd. Yeah. And I think they have at least one season. so I'm very excited about it I'm crossing my fingers because and I'm also saying you should all read the book if you haven't before you see the tv show I'd much rather have the book spoil the tv show than the tv show spoiled yeah yeah yeah let's let's put it that way uh I hope uh oh I didn't mention and you put a link into uh this here a bar of the story you wrote uh for seen it about the luxury self-driving vehicle.

2:42:52I dropped it in late after we started talking about RoboTaxi. So that's the latest one that I've been in. And this is going to be an Uber. It looks like a car, though. It has a steering wheel. It looks like a traditional car. So it's a Lucid Gravity RoboTaxi. I love the Lucids. Those are nice cars. So yeah, this is what the companies are saying is kind of your luxury RoboTaxi option. Can seat up to six. It feels like a standard SUV, except for the part where it drives itself. And again, something that you'd be able to hail on the Uber app, Neuro Self Driving Technology. Neuro is another company based here in the Bay Area that's been working on self driving tech for a while.

2:43:29So it's an interesting three way collaboration to kind of tackle all the areas. One person is going to focus on the vehicle production, the other is going to focus on ride hailing, and then the last is going to focus on the actual self driving tech. I think this is such a huge mistake. tell me more uh as soon as it becomes commonplace that we have campfire seatings nobody's going to want to sit like they're in a car it is it i i fully understand what you mean i think after i've experienced kind of a uh you know they're calling this purpose vehicle too um because they're manufacturing it with the self-driving tech but it's a different kind it's not like a campfire it's like a vehicle it looks like a vehicle it feels like a vehicle it's very standard um so i'm also curious about kind of what the future looks like because i i i think a lot of self-driving companies even if they don't have something currently that looks like what zooks has are aiming for that kind of more collaborative seating environment where you are facing each other and you're having um those types of face-to-face interactions so it's curious to see companies still rolling out new vehicles where it does feel like a traditional car Yeah, I think maybe they missed the boat.

2:44:37If Zouk succeeds and it starts to become commonplace, nobody's going to want to drive a car with mirror, sit in a self-driving vehicle with mirrors and a steering wheel. It just feels too old school. And you're sitting facing the back of a non-existent driver. It makes no sense. I don't think it gives people comfort. I think it just makes no sense. It is really interesting to see each company take its own road, pun intended, and how they are getting there. Yeah. this is what's really interesting about the era of tech we're in it's moving so much faster than ever before that it's very hard for these companies to look ahead and do the right thing absolutely because you know one day you wake up and you're you're allowed to have a vehicle without a steering wheel that can you can charge people rides for you know what i mean like you don't know how fast those those standards are going to change so yeah it still bugs me that uh the american safety people require actual mirrors attached to my vehicle when I could have screens and it would be much better for aerodynamics, et cetera.

2:45:40In Europe, you can, but not here in the United States. I didn't realize that. And the last benefit I'll point out on Zooks' front is they run, because they run the whole operation from the self-driving technology to the vehicle manufacturing, they can adapt very quickly to anything that they want to change. They run, you know from start to finish it's all within their control so if you're collaborating with other folks there's there might be a little bit more of a lag in terms of what you can roll out um depending on what their production schedule looks like or what when you can roll out that software update so could could you know be a road bump and right below your story about the lucid us ways removing steering wheel requirement for driverless cars and what's the date on that yeah those from earlier yeah july 10th of course they affected for zoops at least in a pilot yes So, yeah, I think this is moving very rapidly at this point.

2:46:31When we used to talk about self-driving cars a few years ago, I don't know how many years ago, maybe seven, eight, nine years ago, it was something consumers would own. Do you have a sense of when they're going to stop being robo taxis and start being something you buy and own yourself? Probably in the near future. There's one company in particular that's really pushing for this called Tensor. And so they're kind of simultaneously hoping to launch a robo taxi service and also personally owned vehicles in the coming years is their goal. Like, you know, in just a couple of years, potentially, is what they're aiming for.

2:47:05So it's interesting to see that. But even Nuro has talked about how in the future they'll want to have personally owned self-driving vehicles. But the benefit of doing it as a rideshare option first is you kind of learn from those findings because ownership is such a huge step. So in the near future, that is what they're all kind of aiming for. I feel like that the ultimate goal is to eliminate car ownership. That is such a wasteful thing. You drive your car a small fraction of the amount of time you own it. Right. So the thing that like Elon's pitching, for example, is when you're not driving, you're, you know, you're not sitting in your self-driving vehicle.

2:47:43It then goes out and picks up people and you get this passive income. It becomes a ride-hailing vehicle when you're not using it. I think there's kind of something similar with with tensor where they'd be able to tap into both those areas so that these cars aren't just sitting around. They're making you money when you're not riding in them. That's a bridge to no longer personal ownership of vehicles, which really is wasteful. Right. Not to mention the parking issues and so forth. I think people are getting more and more used to I'm really trying to decide if I should. My lease runs out of my car in December.

2:48:14And I'm thinking maybe I don't need a car. Maybe I just Uber. yeah uh as we get used to that idea of you get a car when you need it but you don't own it you get it when you need it it's certainly cheaper yeah and include insurance and car payments it's cheaper i don't have a car and i love not having those there you go they're dealing with parking or anything and back to our conversation we had earlier at the beginning of this uh chat we were talking about uh why americans uh why we all gain weight while everyone in other countries doesn't it's it would be so nice if we lived in walkable cities that's the other thing that like that we're missing right so it's like we need to have there needs to be larger changes that would allow us to let go of our cars in more cities i'm lucky i live in in the east bay and i can walk around and it's easy but most people don't live in cities where it's easy to walk around if if you no longer have private ownership of vehicles you no longer need to take over 30 of every city with parking lots exactly exactly you could have gardens you could have trees you could have parks beautiful uh you you know you just build data centers just build we need the data so with all that more data centers that's right take over all the parking structures centers and make them into data centers well it would be a better use i think of that real estate that's right so so leo you're our you're our wine country correspondent living in petaluma uh right are there waymos and i heard that there's no way they're coming they're coming to northern california but they're not here yet okay i mean at all here in the wine country they're nowhere in sonoma county uh maybe i shouldn't say that i haven't seen any i don't think you see them in san francisco every third car is a way oh yeah i've ridden yeah i've ridden them in san francisco and that that seems like a such a challenging environment to drive in and they do amazing job there but and again it would make a lot more sense if there were because so many waymos are empty yeah yeah they are a lot more sense if people didn't have personal vehicles that every waymo had somebody in it on its way to somewhere that when you needed to go somewhere, you'd press a button, a Waymo would come pick you up and take you there and then go back to its little house, wherever the Waymo barn is.

2:50:18I feel like that we're so close to a much improved situation. And then, by the way, walking and bicycling wouldn't be so hazardous. I would ride my bike a lot more often if I weren't so worried to get anything creamed by some nitwit in his car. I know. sticking his eight track into you know eight track player writing checks left and right thank you abrar al-hidi thank you keep up the great work at cnet and of course on tech news weekly just love to see you and uh enjoyed your flowers and your thank you so much beautiful flowery personality so very very kind thank you for having wonderful you're wonderful same to you mike elgin i can't wait to see you in amira where i guess we're going to go to dinner in a couple of weeks.

2:51:03I'm looking forward to that. Me too. Haven't seen you in an age. I know. I haven't even seen Lisa on camera. Lisa, I've seen you on camera. Yeah. Well, this is, you know, it's kind of weird, but my entire social life consists of sitting on Zoom. It's very weird. I'm going to have to find some real life friends. Leave the house, Leo. Leave the house. I got to leave the house. There's a whole world out there for you to discover. That's why i don't need a car to be frank i never leave the house what do i need a car for anyway commute is stairs it's it is and i just saw a statistic said the happiest people have the shortest commutes well i have four stairs four stairs and you're ecstatic uh mike elgin is of course at machine society.ai subscribe to his newsletter it's really great on keeping up with that as you can see and every time we have you on mike i i realize this you're great on the insight you're really useful thank you uh you know just this thought that this friend thing was just a whole practical joke nobody's said that before i love that yeah uh and that's why you subscribe to machine society.ai mike's always got his finger on the pulse and if you want to travel especially if you want to do a corporate retreat a reset yes gastronomad.net mike thank you so much amira thank you so much thanks to all of you for joining us a special thanks to our club twit members.

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