In short
Throughline Podcast Episode Summary: Iran Protests Explained
Episode Overview In this episode of *Throughline*, hosts Rund Abdelfatah and Ramtin Arablouei delve into the recent protests in Iran, exploring the historical context, the root causes of the unrest, and the potential paths forward for the nation. The episode features insights from two Iranian experts, Ali Alfoneh and Holly Dagres, who provide analysis on the current protest movement's significance.
Key Themes & Discussions
Historical Context of Protests in Iran
- Recurring Cycles: The episode outlines how Iran has experienced cycles of protest and repression under the Islamic Republic since its establishment in 1979.
- Previous Movements:
- 1999: Student-led protests focused on freedom of expression.
- 2009 (Green Revolution): Protests following alleged election fraud.
- 2022: Women’s rights movement sparked by the death of Mahsa Jina Amini.
The Current Protest Movement
- Economic Crisis: Triggered by the collapse of the Iranian currency (riyal), leading to severe inflation and widespread poverty.
- Government Response: The Iranian regime's crackdown on protests has resulted in violence, with thousands reported dead and a significant number arrested.
Key Voices from the Ground
- Personal Accounts: The episode features an anonymous Iranian graduate student, "Kay," who shared her observations from a recent trip to Iran. She described the country as a "tinderbox," filled with frustration and anger over economic hardships and lack of freedom.
- Protest Dynamics: Protests spread quickly from the Tehran Bazaar to other cities, driven by high levels of discontent against the government.
Expert Insights
- Ali Alfoneh:
- Describes the economic struggles faced by the middle class in Iran.
- Highlights the impact of international sanctions and rampant corruption on the Iranian economy.
- Holly Dagres:
- Emphasizes the role of Gen Z in leading protests and pushing for social freedoms.
- Notes the significance of symbols, such as the lion and sun flag, representing a pre-Islamic cultural identity.
Differences from Past Movements
- Radical Demands: Unlike previous protests that sought reform, current demands include the complete overthrow of the Islamic Republic.
- Youth-Driven Movement: Many protesters are young, demonstrating a generational shift in the desire for change and freedom.
International Response and Implications
- U.S. Position: The episode discusses the potential for U.S. intervention, with President Trump expressing support for protesters while cautioning against violence.
- Regional Dynamics: The conflict between Iran and Israel is explored, with potential implications for internal Iranian dissent.
Conclusions and Questions for the Future
- Prospects for Change: Experts suggest that while the current regime has been effective in suppressing protests, the underlying issues will likely lead to renewed unrest.
- Future Leadership: Discussion includes the role of former Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi as a potential transitional figure, though doubts remain about his effectiveness.
Key Takeaways
- The Iranian people are enduring a severe economic crisis compounded by government repression, leading to a significant uprising.
- There is a generational divide in leadership and expectations, with many young Iranians eager for fundamental change.
- The international community, especially the U.S., plays a complex role in shaping the future of the Iranian protests and the regime's stability.
Final Notes This episode of *Throughline* serves as an important reminder of the complexities surrounding the protests in Iran, illustrating not only the immediate struggles of its people but also the broader historical and geopolitical contexts that shape their fight for freedom.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSetting the Scene in Iran
0:16 to 0:41
An Iranian graduate student describes the current atmosphere in Iran.
“They're almost nothing like it was three years ago, you know.”
Kay's Journey Back Home
0:41 to 1:11
Kay reflects on her first visit to Iran in three years and the changes she observed.
“Back in early December, during her university's holiday break, she and her husband went back to Iran to visit family.”
The Economic Crisis in Iran
1:11 to 2:24
Discussion of the economic struggles affecting daily life in Iran.
“We will not be sharing her name because she asked to remain anonymous in order to protect her family in Iran.”
Protests Emerge from Economic Anger
2:24 to 3:00
Kay shares how economic pain led to protests starting in late December 2025.
“But they had to because they had no choice.”
Protests in Tehran's Bazaar
3:00 to 4:29
The protests that began in Tehran spread quickly, involving diverse crowds.
“The economic pain triggered anger towards the government.”
The Dangerous Call for Change
4:29 to 5:11
Kay discusses the dangers of openly opposing the government in Iran.
“Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has been in power for 37 years.”
Fear and Control in Iranian Society
5:11 to 6:09
Exploration of the social and legal controls in Iran that suppress dissent.
“This government, actually they say, we are from God.”
Government Crackdown on Protests
6:09 to 7:42
The Iranian government's violent response to the protests in early January.
“There is no separation of mosque and state.”
Kay's Harrowing Experience During Protests
7:42 to 9:10
Kay recounts the chaos as protests escalate and her flight is canceled.
“And by early January, the security forces of the government began cracking down hard.”
The Aftermath of Protests
9:10 to 9:47
Updates on the situation in Iran post-protests and the government's response.
“We are 90 million people that we are fighting for our life.”
Show all 32 chapters
Expert Insights on the Uprising
9:47 to 10:46
Introduction to insights from experts on the current uprising in Iran.
“The Iranian government says at least 5 ,000 people have been killed since the protests started.”
Historical Context of Iranian Protests
10:46 to 12:03
Overview of the historical patterns of protest in Iran.
“He stayed in power until 1979, when he was overthrown after a massive protest movement erupted against his autocratic rule.”
Economic Challenges and Sanctions
12:03 to 14:02
Discussion on how sanctions and economic conditions have impacted Iran.
“In other words, it is ruled by Islamic law or Sharia, but it also has a president, legislature, and supreme court.”
Economic Disparities in Iran
14:02 to 15:31
Explore the stark economic inequalities affecting the Iranian middle class and poor.
“Iran also has a solid manufacturing base.”
Impact of Corruption and Sanctions
15:35 to 17:38
Learn how corruption and international sanctions exacerbate Iran's economic crisis.
“He is an Iranian-born political scientist and an expert on the country's leadership.”
Social Issues and Women's Protests
19:23 to 20:39
Understand how social freedom demands fuel protests against the Iranian regime.
“After the woman-life freedom protests in 2022, the Islamic Republic seemed to loosen restrictions on women's clothing.”
Youth Leadership in Protests
20:41 to 21:48
Examine the role of Iranian Gen Z in leading the protests for social change.
“I'm a senior fellow at the Washington Institute.”
Changing Dynamics of Iranian Protests
22:13 to 23:44
Discover the differences in current protests compared to those of the past.
“Hi, my name is Deveria Sohail and I'm calling from London, United Kingdom.”
Reza Pahlavi's Role and Symbolism
24:02 to 27:38
Discuss the potential role of Reza Pahlavi as a leader amid the protests.
“Reza Pahlavi is the son of Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, the Iranian Shah or king, who was deposed in the 1979 revolution that brought the Islamic Republic into power.”
Symbolism of the Lion and Sun Flag
27:40 to 28:00
Learn about the historical significance of the Lion and Sun flag in Iranian identity.
“that seem to be different from the ones in the past.”
The Historical Significance of the Lion and Sun Flag
28:00 to 29:09
Learn about the lion and sun flag's historical roots and its symbolism for Iranian identity.
“I know that some associate the lion and sun flag with the monarchy, but it's actually a flag that's been around for a very long time.”
The Regime's Response to Protests
29:10 to 30:16
Understand the violent strategies that the Iranian regime employs in response to protests.
“It really surprised me how hard they leaned into the Shahnamah or the Book of Kings, which is the epic of the Iranian people written by the poet Ferdosti.”
The Impact of Foreign Policy on Domestic Unrest
30:17 to 31:32
Explore how recent foreign policy failures have weakened the Islamic Republic's standing.
“If you could describe their strategy in these response traditionally, like why they respond in this way, what are they thinking?”
The Revolutionary Guard's Role in Suppression
31:33 to 32:52
Learn about the Revolutionary Guard's complex role in maintaining power amid protests.
“For decades, the Revolutionary Guard, or IRGC, have carefully built proxy military forces in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen.”
Potential Power Shifts in Iran's Leadership
32:53 to 34:16
Discuss the implications of a potential leadership change within the Islamic Republic.
“What options do they have at this point?”
Generational Divide and Protest Dynamics
34:17 to 36:30
Examine the generational divide in Iran and its effects on the current protests.
“I think for a lot of us who've been watching Iran for a long time, that's almost unthinkable.”
The Role of Media in Shaping Perspectives
36:31 to 37:32
Learn how media influences the narrative surrounding the Iranian protests.
“It's dwindling time after time, year after year.”
U.S. and Israel's Involvement in Iranian Protests
38:15 to 42:00
Discuss the implications of U.S. and Israeli actions on the Iranian protest landscape.
“I appreciate your deep dives into really interesting stories and the work that you do.”
Israeli Strategies and Iran's Civil Unrest
42:00 to 42:56
Explore Israel's potential objectives regarding Iran and the implications for civil unrest.
“The government of Israel fundamentally believes it is capable of overthrowing the government into Iran, but they perhaps also believe it is possible to foment a civil war in Iran.”
Protest Dynamics and Historical Context
42:56 to 43:56
Discuss the recurring patterns of protests in Iran and the current situation's uniqueness.
“The regime has obviously used extreme violence to try to put this protest down, as they have in past protest cycles.”
Predictions for the Islamic Republic's Future
43:56 to 45:11
Examine expert opinions on the potential collapse of the Islamic Republic and its outcomes.
“And they said that this winter, for the first time since 1979, the Islamic Republic had checked all boxes for collapse.”
Democracy and the Iranian People's Aspirations
45:11 to 46:37
Consider what the Iranian populace desires in terms of governance and democracy.
“People, you know, I make this assumption, but how much do you think this is about democracy versus just getting better than the regime?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This message comes from 48 Hours with the 48 Hours Post Mortem podcast. Host Anne-Marie Green joins producers and correspondents to discuss key evidence, dead ends, and stranger-than-fiction twists they faced in the field. Listen on your favorite podcast app. They're almost nothing like it was three years ago, you know. The people's attitude, the people's words, I could clearly sense that no one is truly satisfied anymore. The city felt like fire under ashes. Fire under ashes. This is the voice of an Iranian graduate student currently living and studying in the U.S. She asked that we refer to her as Kay.
0:43Back in early December, during her university's holiday break, she and her husband went back to Iran to visit family. They planned to stay a month. This was her first time back in three years. She says Iran kind of felt like a tinderbox when she got there. Not only because of economic problem or economic crisis, but also because of the suffocating atmosphere and the lack of civil freedoms. We will not be sharing her name because she asked to remain anonymous in order to protect her family in Iran. When I went to supermarket or hospital, bank, I've seen a conversation, I've heard conversation that people talk about Iranian currency and why it's really low and it's getting worse and what's going to happen.
1:34They didn't see any future upon them. Over the last several years, Iran's economy has been struggling. Sanctions from the U.S. and its allies, mismanagement from the government, they both played a major role in the downturn. But things got way worse in late December of 2025, when the riyal, Iran's currency, basically collapsed. One U.S. dollar became worth over one million riyals. This meant the buying power of Iranians was down by nearly half since 2022. My friend is like nurse. And even though she has to work hard, like long shifts with her husband, and they had to sell their golds to be able to live in even a smaller apartment in downtown.
2:25But they had to because they had no choice. Gold is something married couples usually receive as a gift at their weddings in Iran. It's like something you use one day to help your children or for your own retirement or to buy a house. This kind of story is very common. Many Iranians have had to resort to selling family heirlooms, working multiple jobs, and even selling their own organs just to pay for rent or food. They told me we can't see any future upon us with this economic situation. The economic pain triggered anger towards the government. And on December 28, 2025, within days of the currency collapse, protests began in Tehran, Iran's capital.
3:21In the downtown of the Tehran, there is a big bazaar that we call the Tehran Bazaar. The Tehran Bazaar is Iran's biggest market. It's an important central hub for all kinds of commerce. And the merchants who have shops there were very angry about the collapse of Iran's currency. They took to the streets and began protesting. Protests started from there. And then following that, other part of the city started to protest. It was like, I don't know, dominoes spreading to all over the country. Protests started in cities and spread to small towns. They even reached the quiet suburbs where Kay was staying.
4:06It started at night, like about 8 p.m. People from every background, like old, young, kids, our neighbors, all of them, even with their kids, were outside. What were they saying? The message was really clear. Down to the government. We don't want this government. They were calling death to Khamenei. Death to Khamenei. Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has been in power for 37 years. Calling for his death publicly is a very dangerous thing to do in Iran. This type of things to say, narrative to say in Iran, it was really like you have to pay a high price to it. Can I clarify? You're saying that saying death to Khamenei for you growing up was seen as something you couldn't do because you could be killed for it.
5:11Yeah, exactly. This government, actually they say, we are from God. And if you say we are against you We don't want to think like you. You're labeled as someone who is at war with God. And they accuse you of acting against national security and then execute you. I couldn't even myself believe that people shouting and calling this, even myself, even me and my family, We were shouting this in our house roof and even our neighbors. We weren't, like, afraid.
5:59But it would be a mistake to see this level of anger and fearlessness from protesters as only a response to economic issues. Iran is a theocracy. There is no separation of mosque and state. Every detail of one's life is subject to religious law and decree. This caused the massive protests in 2022 when Mahsa Gina Amini, a young woman, died in police custody after being arrested for allegedly not following Islamic laws around modest clothing or hijab. There was like really a police dedicated to hijab. that if you don't wear good clothes or you don't wear a hijab they they will follow you in the street it happens to me i was but i was with my father and one of the police uh came to me and like they warned me cover your hair and this is not appropriate clothes that you were here and my father he said i'm with her i'm i'm her father you you're not allowed to tell her anything and what are you doing and it was like like the argue between my father and the police and they they they were like it's none of your business your daughter has to wear hijab and if you like argue more than this, we will arrest most of you.
7:29Can you imagine? I was terrified. So this fear is everywhere. It's chasing you. The latest round of protests went on for days. And by early January, the security forces of the government began cracking down hard. They start to suppress and kill people. I've seen them with my own eyes, riot police and special forces. They were armed to the peace, all of the body covered. And they were carrying a kind of military grade weapons. And they were stopping cars on the roads and setting up checkpoints. And yeah, they were scary. So did you at any point start hearing, did you all hear gunfire? Yeah, yeah, I've heard that.
8:25I've heard that. I've heard like some gunshotting and it was really scary. Kay and her husband were set to come back to the U.S. on January 10th, but her flight was canceled. In response to the protests, the Iranian government cut off the internet and blocked outgoing calls for the entire country. Planes were grounded too. We were, both of us, we were like confused. What's going to happen if we can't find a flight? What's going to happen to our life? Both of us. After two days of going back and forth to the airport, they were finally able to secure a ticket. They made it out of Iran. They are back in the U.S.
9:07now, carrying on with their lives, but always with an eye towards what's happening in their homeland. We are 90 million people that we are fighting for our life. on the streets. And I, myself as Iranian, it is my responsibility to be their voice just because of my sisters and all my sisters around the country.
9:34Since the protests started in the last days of 2025, the Iranian government has used its security forces to stop the unrest. The violence has worked. The streets of Iran are mostly quiet, But the cost paid by demonstrators lingers. The Iranian government says at least 5 ,000 people have been killed since the protests started. U.S.-based human rights activist news agency reports more than 25 ,000 people have been arrested. NPR has not been able to independently confirm these numbers. How did this happen? On January 14th, I called up two experts on modern Iran, Ali Al-Funay and Holly Dagres, to ask them three central questions.
10:18What were the conditions that brought about the current uprising in Iran? How are these protests different from past ones? And how should the United States and its allies respond? We try to answer those questions on this episode of ThruLine from NPR.
10:46This is Joe from Portland, Oregon, and you're listening to ThruLine on NPR.
11:16Part 1. Origins.
11:45Mohammad Musateh. He stayed in power until 1979, when he was overthrown after a massive protest movement erupted against his autocratic rule. Iran's Muslim clerics emerged as the ruling force in the country, and Iran became a theocratic republic. In other words, it is ruled by Islamic law or Sharia, but it also has a president, legislature, and supreme court. On paper, it doesn't look much different from many other countries. But there is also a parallel government in Iran, led by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. He is unelected and has the final word on everything in domestic and foreign policy.
12:28There's also a parallel security force called the Revolutionary Guard Corps, or IRGC. This began as a small paramilitary force, but has ballooned into a massive military with its own army, navy, and air forces, which answer to the supreme leader. The Revolutionary Guards are the sword that enforces the regime's rule. But they've also expanded to become one of the largest players in Iran's economy, controlling significant parts of the construction, telecommunications, banking, mining, and import-export industries. Since 1999, the Islamic Republic has seen unrest from its population regularly, a repeating cycle of protest and repression.
13:13But each of these cycles has been unique. In 1999, it was a student-led protest movement focused on freedom of expression. In 2009's Green Revolution, the protest happened in response to what was perceived to be a stolen election. There were smaller-scale protests in the years after, until the next major one in 2022. The Women Life Freedom Movement started after Masa Jina Amini died in the hands of authorities after she was arrested for allegedly not observing Islamic dress codes. Fast forward to today's protests, sparked by economic crisis. For years, Iran has been under sanctions by the U.S.
13:54and its allies on its two biggest exports, oil and gas. It has some of the largest reserves of each in the world. Iran also has a solid manufacturing base. It's one of the biggest exporters of agricultural products in Asia. On paper, it should be a wealthy country. Yet, according to a report from the Iranian government, 30 % of Iranians live in extreme poverty. Purchasing power of the average Iranian has been hollowed out. The value of the Iranian currency is gone. This is Ali Alphone. He's a senior fellow at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington, D.C. This in turn means that a regular school teacher is no longer even capable of purchasing a new pair of shoes once a year.
14:43For a relatively long time now, it's been very difficult to purchase meat for the kids. People who can't afford to purchase meat, they are too ashamed of, for example, having a barbecue in their backyard because they do not know how well or poorly the neighbor is doing. And the smell of food would be a problem for the kids of the neighbor. So this is the kind of disaster that Iran middle class, the average school teacher, the fireman, the nurse, even doctors, the professional middle class has been experiencing for the past year. Now, it is almost difficult. It really truly is hard to distinguish between the middle class and the poor.
15:29There is no longer any difference. You might remember Ali Alfone from our episode called Soleimani's Iran. He is an Iranian-born political scientist and an expert on the country's leadership. Ali says that these economic problems have been exacerbated by the fact that the pain is not being felt by everyone. Iran's middle class and also the poor who can afford to have a mobile phone and have access to the internet, they can watch YouTube channels. They see on TikTok the rich kids of Tehran who can afford$10 cup of coffee at the luxury shopping malls in northern Tehran. And even worse, on TikTok, they can see son of a former ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Iran to Venezuela, light up a Cuban cigar with a$100 bill.
16:21Now, this creates resentment. This creates anger and frustration. And this makes people just go to the street and demand ousting of a regime which clearly is caring for its own, but is not caring for the large middle class and the poor. So would you say that the response from the regime to this economic crisis has been insufficient? The Islamic Republic is incapable of attending to the economic problems of the Iranian state unless Iran manages to do something about the corruption, the rampant corruption, which is making the country as such poorer and poorer, but a very small part of Iranians who are engaged in sanction busting and engaged in smuggling Iran's oil and selling it in the black market internationally, but nevertheless, manage to fill their pockets.
17:26Unless Iran attends the issue of corruption at home and also reaches an agreement with the U.S., the Islamic Republic is not capable of solving Iran's economic problems. One question that the American audience might ask is what impact the tightening sanctions have had on this economic crisis for Iran. These are American sanctions on Iranian oil and other products I'm referring to. The Islamic Republic's main export has been oil and to some extent, smaller than gas. And this money is not reaching the Iranian state as much as before due to several reasons. One of them is the U.S. sanctions, which has made it very difficult for foreign buyers of Iran's oil to purchase the oil, simply because there are no banking links between Iranian banks and the international banking system.
18:20So even if there is a buyer, an international buyer, they cannot transfer the money through international banking system. The transfer either needs to take place through Chinese or Russian banks and then connected to Iran. This has left only one serious buyer in the international market for Iran's oil, and that's China. They can negotiate the price of Iranian oil even lower than it is in the global oil markets. What makes things even worse, you have the smugglers. A new class of Iranian merchants, usually connected with the Revolutionary Guard, who have their own shipping companies, and they are transferring and selling Iran's oil to the market, to the Chinese buyers.
19:09And they pocket huge sums of money in commission for their services. Corruption, mismanagement, sanctions. They've made Iran virtually unlivable for most of its population. But there is another major element in these protests we wanted to understand. Social issues. After the woman-life freedom protests in 2022, the Islamic Republic seemed to loosen restrictions on women's clothing. Yet that did very little to quell the resentment and anger on the streets. No longer having hijab patrols, patrolling the streets of the big cities, arresting women just because they are not sufficiently covered or not covered enough as according to the prescriptions of the government.
19:59That actually managed to calm the country for a while. But at the same time, no longer enforcing the hijab legislation also taught the Iranians a lesson. And it is that if you fight for a specific cause, the regime will make a retreat from its previous positions. They say that the government is not listening to our voice when we talk with them normally. So we have to take our protest to the streets. This is because of the Women's Life Freedom Movement that Iranians have recognized that they need to take matters into their own hands. And this is just a continuation of that pushing back against authority.
20:39This is Holly Dagras. I'm a senior fellow at the Washington Institute. I am also the curator of the popular newsletter on all things Iran, the Iranists on Substack. I'm Iranian-American and I spent my formative years in Iran. Hali went to high school in Tehran, Iran's capital, and witnessed firsthand how much the desire of young people for more social freedom has fueled uprisings in the country. I would say arguably that it was Iranian Gen Z that started this trend with the 2022 woman life freedom uprising. Everybody talks about this being a girl and women-led movement, but I would say it's a Gen Z one.
21:18And what you're seeing play out in Iran since December 28th I would argue it was youth-led. And a lot of the videos coming out of the country seem to suggest that these are young people, and we've had at least over a dozen under the age of 18 that have been killed by security forces.
21:47It's been extraordinary watching over and over again And Iranians risking their lives knowing full well they'll be met with bullets and batons. And that's what we're seeing play out in the past few weeks.
22:12Coming up, how the current protests in Iran are different from ones in the past. You're listening to ThruLine from NPR.
22:30Hi, my name is Deveria Sohail and I'm calling from London, United Kingdom. You're listening to ThruLine from NPR. Thank you so much for such a brilliant show and for helping me to understand the world that we're currently inhabiting. Thank you so much. Keep up the good work. Bye. Part 2. New Resistance For a very long time, the words Iran and protests have been paired regularly in the news. Iran has been here before. But there are some key differences this time around. Many of the past protests have focused on reforming the country, bringing about incremental changes on voting, freedom of expression, women's rights.
23:14But this time around, protesters appear to be demanding the end of the Islamic Republic entirely. The number of people going to the streets does not even amount to 5 % of Iran's total population. But the people who go to the streets, they truly mean what they are saying. And the 5 % opposing the regime, they do want to bring down the regime. But unfortunately for them, the regime is better armed and is better organized. The opposition, on the other hand, has no effective leadership, has no effective organization, has no real funding, and has no unifying vision for Iran after the collapse of the Islamic Republic.
24:01I think it's important to talk a little bit about the former Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi's role in these protests. Reza Pahlavi is the son of Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, the Iranian Shah or king, who was deposed in the 1979 revolution that brought the Islamic Republic into power. For most of the last 47 years, Reza Pahlavi has been living in exile in the U.S. I remember Iranians used to be like, Sam on a Shah at the time of the Shah, when they wanted to talk about when things were better. And I think that nostalgia has only grown because of the access to information. There's documentaries about pre-revolutionary Iran.
24:42There's also all these nice pictures and photos that go viral. And now with AI, there's also these like AI versions of what they're seeing.
24:57And that's why you've also been seeing these, I would say, pro-pah-la-vi chants. You've heard, this is the last battle Pahlavi will return. Referring to the crown prince and long live the Shah. Javid Shah. Javid Shah. And then Reza Shah Ruhet Shah. Reza Shah, may your soul be blessed. Referring to his grandfather, the founder of the dynasty.
25:25And there's a real sense, at least among some Iranians, that he should be a transitional leader. or that he is just a symbol, the antithesis of the Islamic Republic.
25:41This is one of the many messages Reza Pahlavi has directed towards the Iranian people in the last few weeks.
25:50Dear people of Iran, my brave compatriots, you have over the last two weeks shaken the Islamic Republic at its foundations. He made a call and said that Iranians, regardless of your political chance that you want to use, you should be out on the rooftops or in the streets making those chants. And I saw activists and celebrities in Iran endorse this call for change in Iran that he pushed for. Reza Pahlavi has said he wants to be a transitional leader if the Islamic Republic falls, helping the country towards a referendum on what the future government should look like. He's also cozied up to the Islamic Republic's biggest enemies like Israel and the United States.
26:37With all of that, Ali Alfonay is not convinced that Reza Pahlavi can actually deliver on his promises. I'm still not seeing Mr. Reza Pahlavi as an effective leader of the revolution. But I do see him as a symbolic figure. And I also do believe that many Iranians, when looking at him, they think of an almost mythical era when there was no air pollution in Tehran. The grocery was inexpensive. And taxi drivers were really polite. That nostalgia is something that endears Mr. Zappalavi to many, many Iranians. But is he an effective leader of the revolution? I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps he will emerge as a leader in the coming years.
27:38There's something that I've noticed about these protests that seem to be different from the ones in the past. And it's centered around sort of what we can tell, at least from symbolism. And one is the flag that many people are flying. Can you talk about what the lion and sun flag is, basically, and how it differs from Iran's official flag and what that means? I know that some associate the lion and sun flag with the monarchy, but it's actually a flag that's been around for a very long time. There's been various, there's been different variations of it throughout history. The sun and lion is a symbol that's been around since ancient Persia.
Read the full transcript
28:19It's a symbol that represents a couple of key concepts that have been important to Iranian people throughout its history. The lion represents strength, kinship, protection, basically a stand-in for great heroes. The sun symbolizes light, life, wisdom, and divinity, representing God. It was used on the Iranian national flag for generations. And it was only after the 79 revolution was the lion and son replaced with an Allah, which is God in it. Yes. But big picture, why it's being utilized, it's for several reasons. It's because it runs counter to the Islamic Republic. It's seen as a symbol of patriotism.
29:05I think the clerical establishment has recognized it. They've dabbled with nationalism here and there. It really surprised me how hard they leaned into the Shahnamah or the Book of Kings, which is the epic of the Iranian people written by the poet Ferdosti. That's a change, right? To me, it shows that there's this underlying deep desire for sort of a nationalistic, pre-Islamic cultural identity to reemerge in Iran. I think what happened was that they realized that Iranians weren't going to take the Islamic version of events. They'd shoved it down their throat for so long that they had thrown it up and they weren't going to take it anymore.
29:44And so the regime has spent time and energy for years trying to invest in this pre-Islamic identity to kind of bring the people back on their side, tapping into nationalism, tapping into ancient Persian mythology. And as it's clear from these anti-regime protests, it didn't work. The regime's response to these protests, like they have in the past, has been extremely violent. The numbers we are seeing, even on the conservative side, are shocking. If you could describe their strategy in these response traditionally, like why they respond in this way, what are they thinking? Their logic is that now we are facing, the regime is facing, not just peaceful protesters, but also an armed opposition and possibly an ethnic armed insurgency.
30:43Kurdish armed groups based in Iraq have said that they are conducting operations to protect protesters in Iran, where there is also a Kurdish minority. Therefore, the regime can take liberties and engage in excessive response against the protests. That is how they legitimize extreme use of force. How can a regime live this kind of history? That is, again, up to the leaders of the Islamic Republic. and it is a tragedy unfolding in front of us. Truly, truly. I have only one word for it. Tragedy. There's another element that makes these protests different. The fact that the Islamic Republic has suffered devastating losses in its foreign policy during the last few years.
31:36For decades, the Revolutionary Guard, or IRGC, have carefully built proxy military forces in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen. These military forces were created to project the Islamic Republic's power in the Middle East. But over the last few years, Iran's proxy forces have fallen in Lebanon and Syria, dealing them a great blow. On top of all that, in 2025, the United States and Israel attacked Iran's nuclear and missile production facilities, and Israel assassinated many of its leaders. This conflict was dubbed the 12-day war by President Trump. The revolutionary gun has lost prestige due to its continued debacles in the region.
32:24First, we saw Israel's near destruction of Lebanese Hezbollah in 2024. Then we saw the collapse of the Assad regime. And of course, there was the 12-day war with decapitation of half of the IRGC's leadership. But nevertheless, due to its decentralized structure and organization, the IRGC managed to continue its operations. It is capable of suppressing the protesters. I mean, your description makes it sound like the IRGC's kind of backed into a corner, more or less. What options do they have at this point? The Stamkin Republic needs an economic solution. and the economic solution for Iran's ills can be found in Washington.
33:10In other words, what the Islamic Republic needs is an agreement with President Trump. President Trump has, on the other hand, at times indicated that he would be open to a Venezuela-style agreement with the Islamic Republic. What happened in Venezuela? In Venezuela, there was a change of leadership, but not necessarily a change of the regime. The same, I believe, could be applied to the Islamic Republic. Who knows what will happen to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who is currently 86 years old. He may pass away, perhaps under mysterious circumstances. and the leadership of the Islamic Republic could perhaps make an agreement with President Trump.
33:55There is no need for them to tie their own destinies to the destiny of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Why should they not survive if the Venezuelan regime can survive? Okay, but are you saying that Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader, could be betrayed by the Revolutionary Guard who were supposed to take orders from him? I think for a lot of us who've been watching Iran for a long time, that's almost unthinkable. Roman emperors were at times kept captive by their own praetorian guard. Ottoman sultans at times were kept captive and were hostages in the hands of their Yanisari guard. Nowadays, it is the revolutionary God, which at times pursues its own interests.
34:47It is an enterprise of more than 150 ,000 active duty soldiers and officers. It is an economic enterprise with a billion dollars worth of investments inside of Iran. And it is a cultural entity. It is a political party. It is so many things. and all of these bureaucracies, they would want to survive and they are not interested in tying their own destinies to the destiny of an 86 years old man. They think about the future, not about the past. One, I think, confusing element for Americans and non-Iranians or people outside of Iran is that we're hearing so much about Gen Z and about how much of the country is turning away from the vision of the Islamic Republic.
35:38But at the same time, someone is doing the shooting and the security forces. Who's actually the ones taking up the guns and shooting these protesters, despite the fact that the regime has essentially more or less failed the entire country, regardless of their ideological beliefs? Economics affect everyone. So where are they finding this base of support? I think that's a very important question. You have to remember there's still a 30 % rule. 30 % rule of thumb is that an authoritarian regime can survive. That was the New Yorkers' Robin Wright that said that. And I think there's something to it.
36:16And so I would say that's probably a safe number to say how much regime support's left of this country. That's significant, though. It is and it isn't. Because yes, it's enough to send, to hand a gun over to someone and shoot protesters. But it beats its very, it's dwindling. It's dwindling time after time, year after year. And, you know, the more Iranians see and learn, the more they know. This actually played out in this movie that was nominated last year at the Oscars, The Seed of the Sacred Fig.
37:00This movie was basically the microcosm of Iranian society. It was this conservative family, but these Gen Z young siblings that are pushing back against the parents and their brainwashing.
37:19And it was very much like a symbol of the fight between the youth and the clerical establishment. And I think that thanks to social media and the internet and satellite dishes, young people are increasingly seeing and peeling away from maybe the conservative household or pro-regime household they live in. And it doesn't mean that everybody feels that way. I mean, there's always going to be those diehard believers. But I think that's what brought us to this moment, that that number is so small today.
37:57Coming up, how will the U.S. respond to the protests? And where does Iran go from here?
38:08Hi, this is Justin Whitlow from Leicester, North Carolina, and you are listening to ThruLine. I want to say that the show is an absolutely wonderful show. I appreciate your deep dives into really interesting stories and the work that you do. Thank you so much.
38:30Part 3. Fire Under Ashes. Since the taping of these interviews on January 14th, 2026, the protests in Iran have mostly been ended by the Islamic Republic. The death toll is in the thousands and continuing to rise. President Donald Trump has expressed support for the Iranian protesters and has threatened the Iranian government. On January 9th, he warned the Islamic Republic to not kill demonstrators, saying, I tell the Iranian leaders, you better not start shooting because we'll start shooting too. Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei responded by calling President Trump a criminal. And the U.S.
39:11military has sent an aircraft carrier to the Middle East, bringing up more questions about how the U.S. intends to engage. Military action is probably not the first priority of President Trump. But should he engage in such an endeavor, his options will also be relatively limited because he presumably would not want to kill the protesters. She only wants to kill and neutralize or weaken the Revolutionary Guard, perhaps by attacking their bases. But I'm sure that the Revolutionary Guard will also have its countermeasures to protect itself. I'm reminded of 2009 in that President Obama made some hints or encouragement to the Iranian protesters then and then ended up with a kind of nuclear deal.
39:55President Trump has made even more severe threats. If he doesn't fulfill those threats, what might that do to the future of a protest movement? In the 1950s and 60s, whenever there were popular uprisings against communist dictatorships in Hungary, in Czechoslovakia and Poland, Radio Free Europe would send and transmit messages to the people saying that the U.S. government was supporting them. So these people took arms and they fought against the Soviet occupation army and they lost because there was no U.S. intervention to protect them. I am afraid that by sending messages and by encouraging the protesters, but not necessarily using military means to protect those protesters, President Trump is committing the same mistake as his predecessors during the Cold War.
40:54And again, these two will make Iranians even more cynical about the future. Yeah. Okay, so we've covered the U.S. Let's switch gears for a second and talk about Israel. Israel and Iran's conflict is ongoing, and it's really ratcheted up since October 7th for obvious reasons we've covered on this show. Would you say that this is an opening of a new chapter where Israel is more on the offensive vis-a-vis Iran and within Iran? And what does that spell for the future of this protest? The Islamic Republic has been meddling in the internal affairs of Israel and has also tried to mobilize Israel's neighbors against it.
41:40Israel is not doing exactly the same thing with Iran, trying to steer the ethnic minorities in the periphery regions against the central government in Iran. So it's a tit for tax. But unfortunately for Iran, Israel is this almost impenetrable fortress, and Iran is not. The borders are wide open. The government of Israel fundamentally believes it is capable of overthrowing the government into Iran, but they perhaps also believe it is possible to foment a civil war in Iran. And partition of Iran may be one of the objectives of some Israeli planners. And should the opposition win, should the Islamic Republic collapse and, let's say, Mester Reza Pallavi take over power in Iran, I'm actually not sure that it would satisfy the government of Israel.
42:32We have seen that the government of Israel was not happy with Mester Shara taking power in Syria, despite Mester Shara's best efforts to normalize relations with Israel. And Israel is still continuing to undermine Syria. So I'm not seeing why Israel should treat Iran in a kinder way that it has treated Syria. We're on here January 14th taping this. The regime has obviously used extreme violence to try to put this protest down, as they have in past protest cycles. Is there anything different about this set of protests you're seeing right now that will lead you to believe that we might see a different outcome?
43:15Because in the past, it's been protest, violence, end of protest. Wait a few more years and another protest will start. Is there anything different you're seeing here? I mean, I think the level of brutality they've committed under the communications shutdown, this massacre that we keep talking about. I don't think the Islamic Republic can come back from that. And it's not just me saying it. Before the massacre happened, we had Carnegie's Karim Sajjapur and Jack Goldstone, an expert on revolutions and uprightings, co-author a piece in the Atlantic. And they said that this winter, for the first time since 1979, the Islamic Republic had checked all boxes for collapse.
44:05I think it really tells you the direction of where things are going. And after this massacre, they've crossed a line that I don't think any Iranian could see past anymore.
44:23As of January 14th, I, Ali Al-Funay, believe that the Islamic Republic manages to contain and effectively suppress protests for a time. But then these protests will flare up again because Iran's economic woes remain unresolved. And therefore, the Islamic Republic has to reach an agreement with President Trump and receive sanction relief. So I do believe that this regime, its demise and collapse is neither imminent nor inevitable. The regime will fight for its survival. And one of those ways is a negotiated solution with President Trump.
45:11People, you know, I make this assumption, but how much do you think this is about democracy versus just getting better than the regime? Are those things too, like, hand in hand? Well, I get the sense that this is for a call for a transition. And transition, you have to, in order to have a transition, arguably you should have free and fair elections. The Iranians could decide they want a monarchy tomorrow. but that needs to be decided in an election. So it's, yeah, I mean, I guess democracy is one word to use, but choice seems like the other. That they have not had one up to now. Absolutely not.
45:46And I think this is, when you say you don't want the regime, it means you want something positive. What's the opposite of the Islamic Republic? I would think of an authoritarian regime, I would think it's democracy. But again, these things will be decided in a free and fair elections in a free Iran. And that's what we should be aspiring for, a free Iran. What is the most important thing for the American audience to know about what's happening in Iran right now? I would say that the Iranian people have been living under a dictatorship they don't want for 47 years. And they have the same needs and wants as people everywhere, including Americans.
46:24And they are probably the most pro-American in the Middle East. And we should be paying attention to them because we are a country that believes in freedom and democracy. And that's exactly what Iranians are aspiring to.
46:51That's it for this week's show. I'm Randa Abdel Fattah. I'm Ramtin Adablui, and you've been listening to ThruLine from NPR. This episode was produced by me. And me and. Lawrence Wu. Julie Kane. Anya Steinberg. Casey Miner. Christina Kim. Devin Kadiyama. Irene Noguchi. Kiana Moghadam. Thomas Coltrane. Fact-checking was done by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Also, thank you to Johannes Dergi, Beth Donovan, Tommy Evans, Arazu Rezvani, Tony Kavan, and James Heider. This episode was mixed by Jimmy Keighley. Music for this episode was composed by Ramteen. And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us at throughlineatnpr.org.
47:41And make sure to rate us and leave us a comment on Apple or Spotify. It helps other people find the show. Thanks for listening.
From the publisher
In this episode of Throughline from NPR, we speak to two Iranian experts about their view of the past, present, and future of Iran’s protest movement.
Guests:
Ali Alfoneh, senior fellow at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington DC
Holly Dagres, senior fellow at the Washington Institute and curator of the Iranist on Substack.
To access bonus episodes and listen to Throughline sponsor-free, subscribe to Throughline+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org/throughline.
Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoices
NPR Privacy Policy




