Winter Book Club: Why You'll Love 'Dune'

0:28Hey, everyone. It's Ramteen here. I saw myself projected into the future, or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in. You're listening to Books We've Loved from NPR. The book show where we reread old favorites and tell you why they still matter today. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. I'm B.A. Parker. This is a big one. This is a hefty, this is a hefty, let's just flip and do this right here. Andrew, so much. Let's flip and do this hefty boy. It's so, it's so much. and it's our guest's fault. And, I mean, I did it. I, 617 pages. Uh-huh. Is that not counting the appendices and all that? Yeah.

1:10Oh. Yeah. Okay. So, like, almost 700 pages. Yeah. Who do we have with us that we can... Thank for this. We have here Ramteen Arablui from NPR's ThruLine. Ramteen, what's up, man? Hey. How you doing? Thank you for this assignment. We're about to get through this heavy book. the book we're reading today in many ways it's heavy the book you brought us today is Frank Herbert's Dune yes all day all day I've been waiting I've been waiting decades for this this is your moment it's all gonna pour out here okay I've been waiting for years to talk about this book which I would tell you that and y 'all might be completely disturbed by this had a major part in building my world view no I believe it what I get it yeah how old did you I was 13 Okay.

1:58I was in middle school when I first read this. Reading came late for me. I struggled with it a little bit. I mean, partly it's because it's my second language. You know, I moved here. I'd just gotten out of being a toddler when I moved to the U.S. And so it was hard to learn English. And so I kind of was delayed a little bit in reading. But once I started reading, I really got to sci-fi books. Yeah. And I had a teacher who was like, hey, if you really want to get into some deep stuff. Some stuff. Dune. So I read it and I became obsessed. I read it like twice in the summer. For listeners who haven't read it, I'm just going to run through it.

2:29I read this quick synopsis. We've been doing these quick summaries of the book. This is by far the longest synopsis. I'm going to try to get through it. Here's Dune summed up. It goes, so Paul Atreides is a 15-year-old boy next in line to lead the Atreides family. They rule over their water planet, Caladan. And Paul's dad, Leto, gets a call from the emperor and says, guess what? You're now in charge of this desert planet called Arrakis. Arrakis kind of sucks there. It's dry and it's hot, but it is rich with this drug resource called spice. Turns out you find out midway through the book that the emperor was working with the Harkonnen, who are rivals to the Atreides family.

3:12There's a big attack and now Paul's dad is dead and Paul and his mom Jessica are alone in the desert. There, Paul and Jessica intermingle with the Fremen, who are the indigenous people of Onorak is. And it turns out, turns out, it just so happens that Paul is this savior figure that they've been waiting for. Paul falls in love with a Fremen woman named Chani, and he eventually leads the Fremen to defeat the Harkonnen and then overthrow the emperor in a marriage in some sort of, I can't quite understand the deal that's made there, but Paul's at the top of the castle at the end. Is that a fair once over?

3:51Yes. Okay. I mean, Robinson has a better understanding of what—he's read it more than once. I read it once, and I thought Arrakis and Atreides were the same thing for first 80 pages. So I was like, wait, did they name the planet after themselves? And I was like, nah, girl. There's different stuff, yeah. So I trust Robinson. Yeah, no, I think that's one of the things I think that I loved about the book, but I think is a weak spot of it, is it's basically mostly context and world building. Yeah. It is building this world that is then expanded upon the next five books that Herbert himself wrote. But I think that part of it, from my mind at that time, I was super into this kind of context world building.

4:34What does it say about our world? What does it say about geopolitics? I was in that place. And so it has that. But there's a ton of names and a ton of concepts and things are returned to. And there isn't like narrative driving it the way that like a typical sci-fi novel would. So I can understand why you get those two mixed up. But I'm thankful for the glossary in the back of the book as you move forward. Yeah, exactly. So Parker, were you like a sci-fi kid growing up? Were you reading sci-fi? No, I was reading like Roald Dahl and like John Cheever's short stories. Interesting. So what was your impression of Dune?

5:07Did you know about it? I knew it existed. I've seen the two movies, the Timothee Chalamet movies. I've never seen the David Lynch Dune. Well, I'm just curious because like, so I, when I was a teenager, I was big into sci-fi. I was reading like Ender's Game. I was reading like Philip K. Dick. I was reading, you know, Ursula K. Le Guin. I remember I gave Dune a shot because I knew this was like a big book in the genre. And I have this sense of memory. I remember being in the backseat of the car. We were driving to church and I'm reading my copy from the library. And I get like 30 pages into it. I'm like, nah, bro.

5:41I'm done. I'm done. I'm out. What made you want to be like, I'm out? I just think I got confused. I was like, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know who was who. And there was no, at the time, I just couldn't grab onto anything driving me through the rest of the book. And so I was wondering, maybe it is possible that you were just built different as a kid. But do you remember as a kid being like, oh, I don't really know what the world of the emperor is and his big corporation thing. But I'm very attracted to this one thing that is driving me through. Yeah, that's why I read it twice. Because I also obviously was like, what is going on at times?

6:15I didn't understand. I had to keep going back, which is obviously not what you want as a writer, I think, to have people doing that. But at the same time, for me, it was personal. What this book had for me that appealed to me personally is one of the first books, sci-fi books that I read that projected the modern world into the future in the way that it did. Specifically for me, Islam was a big part of the book. I mean, very quickly into the first like 100 pages, there's Arabic words coming up, Islamic concepts. And I was raised in this one. They're like celebrating Ramadan, right? Yes. They're going on Hajj.

6:49Yes. I was like, what's happening? Yeah. For me, it was like, wow, I saw myself. And because you're a kid, you're a narcissist. You're really into yourself at that point. I saw myself projected into the future. Or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in. That's so lovely. I feel so bad for like growling and being so mad while reading. No, no, no, no, no. Because that's legit too. Like I can hold both things, right? Like at the same time, I understand that the book's weaknesses is it's just not as narrative driven. Like what you're saying, that totally makes sense. There isn't a thread that pulls you all the way through.

7:23It's not per se a like classically well-written book. But what it has is the level of detail and research that went into it. If world building and sci-fi for you is a way to understand the world today, it has, in my opinion, a lot to offer there. Meaning the way it projects economics, ecology, religion, gender dynamics, all of that into the future, I think is really prescient in a way that a lot of other sci-fi books aren't. All right. I just want to take a quick break right here and then we'll get into all of that.

8:03All right, we're back before Ramteen just laid out the big ideas that Herbert was working with in Dune. I'm just going to run through some quick bio stuff for Herbert to understand this interesting guy that we've been working with, that we've been thinking about. So really quick, so he was born in Tacoma, Washington. So he's a Pacific Northwest guy. He was growing up, I believe, during the Great Depression. His parents are alcoholics, so he ran away from home. As an adult, he was a journalist, a photographer, a speechwriter, and he was writing sci-fi on the side. And he was originally working on a magazine article about the U.S.

8:34Department of Agriculture's efforts to stabilize sand dunes in Oregon. He never finished that article because he got too obsessed with this image of the sand dunes and how to live and survive in a desert world. So he spends six years world building and he was just working on this draft. It was originally published in serial form in sci-fi magazines. the full novel was rejected by 23 publishers before Chilton books accepted it, which is a company, a publishing company, mostly known for auto repair manuals. I also read that the guy who worked at that company and bought the book for the publishing company, like the book was such a flop that he got fired.

9:15Yep. It's a bother dude. But eventually, you know, the book was published in 65 and it became, it won the Hugo and the Nebula, which are the big sci-fi awards to this day. And it is, I think, up there in the sci-fi canon. Frumseed, since you were a big fan as a kid, have you seen Dune's influence throughout the years? Are there any things that you saw in culture and be like, that's Dune, that's Dune, that's Dune? Yes. I mean, I think for me, it was retrospective, right? After I read the book, I was like, let me go back and read where the idea for Star Wars came from. Like immediately. Oh, we gotta talk about Star Wars.

9:49Okay. Right? That's the big one. I was like, yo, this is a one-to-one concept. I mean, I think it goes beyond inspiration. So you could argue Herbert was inspired by the Foundation series, by Asimov. Like, there is a lot of previous books. And all art is a remix of some other art, in my opinion. It's influenced by something else. But some of the, like, Jabba the Hutt and the Worms. The desert planet. The desert planet. Oh, like the Baron. Yeah. Oh! Yeah. Luke's story, Paul's story. like it's just a rip off in a lot of ways and of course you know this hard to prove that or whatever frank herbert i think almost he's been on the record to be like he ripped me off and he i don't think he ever sued but he definitely like lucas films ain't gonna check no no they did not lucas denied it he said like you know of course i read it like everyone else but like no way i was sitting i'm thinking about while i was you know writing this idea just through osmosis yes what I will say this.

10:47It makes me happy that, or sad, that Herbert didn't live long enough to see the rebirth and rise of Dune as a film and as a franchise and the death of Star Wars. Because I... Okay, all right, come on now. I argue Star Wars has just gone too far. It's, wow. Like, the Disney-ification of Star Wars, whereas, you know, Dune is in the hands of, like, a great filmmaker like Denis Villeneuve. So I just think Herbert got the last lap. Hot take. I will say, when the first Dune, the part one came out, I had a friend and I was like, this is the only time I will let you mansplain something to me. I need you to explain Dune to me before I see this movie.

11:29And he was like, well, it's basically Star Wars for gods. And it's about, it's about like this spice and imperialism. And I was like, okay, okay. And then I got in and saw the movie and then I was like, oh, I understand even less. But beautiful gowns, great score. And everyone's hair was fantastic. Immaculate, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, awesome. The movie, from a production standpoint, all that's A++. I really love that the film has made it like a franchise. It's entered the popular parlance. People are using those words. Yeah, there's an HBO series about the Bene Gesserit. The Sisterhood, which I watched, which I thought could have been better.

12:13But it was solid. So wait, are you thinking we're close to the Marvelification of Dune? I hope not. I hope not. I mean, it could. It could go that way. It could. Can I ask you, like, have you read all of the Dune books? I've read all of them. Like, even the ones that's like POV of the Sandworm. Yes. I've read all of them. I mean, the first six are considered canon because they were written by Herbert. The rest were written by his son. But I'm just here for the universe, if I'm being honest with you. And I love the first book because, again, the themes, one of the things I love is culture follows ecology.

12:50That is really explored in the first book. The themes of how to view leadership, how to view someone proclaiming that they are Messiah, to basically be suspicious of all leadership. the fact that this was presented also in the context of the 1950s and 60s in America, a time where, you know, the U.S. has essentially presented itself to itself as the Trades family. Yeah. And that the Soviets are the Harkonnens. It's a warning, a complex warning. And what I find really fascinating is the reason why Herbert went on to write, apparently he didn't want to write all those additional books. He wanted to go in a different direction.

13:27But he felt like critics and the fans really misunderstood the first book. Okay. Okay. On that note, so I've got here this interview from 1982, who's on NBC. So he's a few books into the Dune series. He says a couple of funny things in this interview. First off, he says, I want to write sci-fi for the non-sci-fi audience. And I was like, that's an interesting approach for a guy who wrote this. And then he's asked about like, okay, what is like your goal with these books? What did you want to accomplish? And this is what he says. don't trust leaders to always be right I work to create a leader in this book who would be really an attractive charismatic person for all the good reasons not for any bad reasons then power comes to him he makes decisions some of his decisions made for millions of people millions upon millions of people don't work out too well here's where I struggle with this book which is that that is an interesting concept that back half of that deconstruction of the hero myth none of that really happens in book one all of that happens right as i understand all that happens i'm i'm like kind of interested in like buying doom messiah and i'm interested in like but none of that if we're talking about specifically just about doing this first book it's all about the come up and nothing about about the crash yeah so it's like is he successful if that is his goal with his book well i think this is my interpretation was trying to do the illustration of the visions that paul is having about the future once he you know goes through the kind of the ritual of basically inculcated with the spice in its purest form he sees that there's like multiple different futures that there isn't one and some of the futures he sees are horrible and it's haunting him and it's scaring him i think herbert thought people would then extrapolate like yeah he came up but now he's got an army of like fanatics basically wiping out the known galaxy in his name and he's not he understands the darkness of this but then gives up to like it's inevitable i can't do anything about it etc so i think he assumed that but people misread it people sometimes and i think even with the movie saw it as like a white savior story etc but i think he meant it as the opposite from what i understand he had real problems with the hero journey itself yeah the hero's journey which i do And this is what I said about its worldview.

15:49I think it is picking apart that fundamental kind of deep, I would say European sense of story. All right, quick break. And then we're going to get into how Dune approaches technology.

16:10All right, we're back. I want to talk more about Herbert's approach to technology. I watched a couple interviews with him and read some stuff. And he was interested in technology. He said, you can't run away from it. You have to engage. You have to interface. So he wanted to write, again, this is the thing that's tripping me up. He wanted to write about technology, but the story he chose to tell is like after these people have eradicated technology, sort of. Yes, but the idea is humanity itself is a technology. That ideas are a technology. I don't mean to get all weird and academic here, but I think what he's trying to express is that we tend to think of technology as something we build, something that physically exists in the way that like a telephone will or a computer.

17:00But what I think he's saying is that when you don't have those things, you're forced to develop the mind as a technology. So the book, the world of the book depends on human beings and their mental capabilities to do things like travel from one star system to the next. Right. And so two things. The human mind is a technology and natural resources are a technology. That the ecology becomes a technology. So the Spice Melange is the technology that fuels space travel. It fuels long life. It fuels the ability of people to like mentats. Basically, they're all Spice Melange addicts, right? Is that what they are?

17:38Yes. That's why they have the certain, they have like lips that reflect a constant consumption of Spice Melange and eyes, obviously. The eyes of Abad. Were they human computers? Yes. Ha! Yeah, well, they're trained from a young age with the use of spice melange as like a like a lawsuit on Adderall. Yes, exactly. Next level. If you try to come off, you die. OK, so. So the idea is that humanity itself and our ideas and the way we develop our own mental state is a form of technology and that we should view it that way. You know, I probably sound crazy. And I think what's interesting is like I associate his generation of sci-fi writer with like right-leaning libertarianism.

18:31That's like kind of like easy. You can generally like map on to like what Heinlein is thinking about. I find what he's cooking way more complex and in an interesting and fascinating way. It's profoundly morally dubious, the book. It's morally complex. One example is the way the Fremen are portrayed, right? He became very, I think, infatuated by Bedouin culture, Berber culture, Mongolian culture. And the way they're portrayed is, at once, it shows that he has a sort of nostalgic view of Marxism and collectivism. That people can live collectively and literally give their bodies back to each other.

19:08The water from their bodies to survive at that level. But then, at the same time, they are vicious and brutal and merciless towards each other and towards their enemies when they need to be. meaning that the Fremen are basically no-nonsense people. They are not sentimental. They are very much about survival, and they will kill enemies on the battlefield if they need to. If you're weak, they will drop you. And I think what it is is a morally complex view and not necessarily romanticizing any of the characters in the book. It's pushing the listener in a time of black and white thinking in the United States during the Red Scare and all of that stuff to start thinking a little bit more complex about world affairs and understanding these things come from somewhere.

19:47Yeah. So I want to move and start talking about religion here because you could read this as an anti-religious book, right? You could say like, oh, messiahs are bad because like, you know, Paul is going to lead them all into like hell and like kill a bunch of people in the name of religion and religion sort of like the psychology of religion and how people get swept up in these stories. They're all like brainwashed. You know, you can do the whole anti-religion thing. And yet he treats it with such dignity and respect. Like there is a beauty to what like the Fremen people are doing. I mean, while reading it, I was distracted.

20:18I was like, wait, this is a quote from Ecclesiastes while we're going along. I think it also speaks to, I think in the book, there is a respect for death in a way that I found interesting. Like there is a moment when Paul has to kill someone and Jessica, his mother, Lady Jessica has to be like, you just killed someone. How do you feel about that? Like it's not discarded. in a way that I feel like in contemporary art, it's kind of like you kill someone, like isn't that cool? Go past, like no, this is a life-changing thing that happens. And the Fremen treat it as such and respects the body. When you like pause like the ritual of getting the water from the body, there is like a ceremony and a respect to it that shows a spirituality, call it spirituality?

21:12Yes, yeah, for sure. That I was really drawn to and thought interesting. What I think is fascinating about that is Herbert read, like, in preparation for this, did years of research. That's what's interesting. Like, he took courses, I think, at University of Oregon and read about Islamic history and military history. And one of the things I think is a commentary on is, like, pre-modern warfare. I mean, he's writing this on the heels of, like, atom bomb being dropped. and of the horrors of World War II where a lot of those deaths were happening either through a gun or a bomb. And I think what he's basically doing is hearkening back to pre-modern warfare.

21:46You had to kill someone with a sword or a knife. It was brutal. There's no distance to it. It was up close. Exactly. And so it conjured this sense of honoring the person you killed, that the death itself, it was so up close and so upfront that you had to develop some kind of mythology around it to justify it in your human brain. But I will say this. I think he's less anti-religious and more anti-determinism, anti-prophecy. It's like he respects faith systems as so far as they serve us in our lives. Meaning you make sense of death through a ceremony. You make sense of the fact that you don't have any water around you by creating a religion around water, right?

22:25That all to him seems to make sense. But then when it comes to someone saying, I see the future, follow me. He seems really deeply suspicious of that, which makes sense in an era of Stalin and Mao and American mythology, right? Yeah, and very questionable fundamentalism and being like, question everything, but also have your rituals. All right, let's take one more quick break. And then let's talk about whether or not Herbert is a good writer. And then we're going to give out some book recommendations too. Stick with us.

23:04where i sort of want to almost wrap up here is ask is herbert a good writer if we're talking about on a sentence level right there's the chapter where kind who's like a c-tier character he's an he plays an important part but he's not like a main character yeah but when this character dies i don't know if that's what but it like sort of deviates really quick from like the main thrust of the narrative and there's this like intimate conversation that he has i can't quite tell if he's imagining it but like with his father right as he's facing death and i was like oh for for all of my dogging on this book about like being too mired in like history and world building this is like a moment of quiet beauty if like i can get like four more of those yeah you know what i mean this would be a 10 out of 10 book well have you read all of this is the only this is the only one i have never read a single one i'm messiah curious i'm okay all right so if you can get to god emperor of dune that's which i think is the fourth book fourth yes if you can get there or the third book I'm sorry third book Children of Doom is the fourth book the third book that book is like philosophical banger after philosophical banger the writing in that book I think is the best of the series but there are moments of it in the previous book which is what you're pointing out where it's like deeply thoughtful and philosophical and emotional and and just like beautiful it's like a pretty section to read 100 % or I mean the litany against fear which is in the first book right the you know fear is the mind killer like that's the reason why it's like people have it tattooed on their bodies or that it's like had this kind of extended life is because it's a beautifully written paragraph but i agree with you in this book is he the best writer in the world no what makes the book special are the ideas in it versus the way that those ideas are expressed i gotta get through like 1200 more pages this is like when someone recommends a show and it's like oh season one and two is ass but like season three baby that's like there are 10 seasons no i want you know i hear you i wouldn't go i still do really love the book and i think the reason why everybody should read it is that yeah that's my last question why should we read this today it gives you a better understanding of the world we live in now why the world is the way it is why certain wars are being fought why certain resources matter why we are in the place we are and gives you kind of a both of my opinion meta view of that but also a deeply personal one.

25:36That in the end, all of us are living within circumstances that none of us decided. And every day we have to make decisions based on outside influences that are in our head, that are in our bodies, that dictate everything around us. And that we should be a little bit more forgiving of ourselves because we're living within that context and we should be really suspicious of anyone that tells us that they have all the answers. And I think the final thing I'll say, for me, this is very personal, But I think its portrayal of Islamic thought is the most respectful, even though it's flawed at times and shows some of his misunderstandings of it.

26:14It still portrays a deep respect from a white American author writing in the 1950s and 60s and beyond. I think it's really important for people to understand Islam from this perspective, from one that doesn't otherize it, that paints it as an integral part of the future world. And so for that reason, I think it's really important for people as an exercise to read this book, especially when they're young. Yeah. I think this book is definitely worth reading today because, like I said, I've been getting Dune-pilled. My immediate reactions to it were a little rude. Like, you know, the text of the boys at the group chat who were all Dune fans, I was like, boys, what do you want?

26:52What do you want? But then it's like, oh, I had a question. I was like thinking about, oh, let me go back and read more about what this question he poses. And let me go think about that thing. This week has been a lot of fun just like thinking about this freaking book. Yes. And just like unwrapping it and being like, wait, what is it saying? It's not saying nothing. But I was like, but then I gave it a couple of days. It's like, he's saying a lot. He's saying a lot. He's saying a lot. It's a lot. Maybe too much. I mean, that's one of the critics is like there's a lot of ideas mashed into it. Yeah.

27:19Parker, are you, how are you feeling? Okay. Earlier this week, I was really hostile towards the book. I will say I enjoyed. Then I realized I enjoyed the first and second book. And then I felt book three inside of the book jumped the shock a little bit with the Abomination Child. And then I was like, what is this? The precocious daughter. The precocious daughter? Yeah, running around with an adult's voice, fighting people and killing people. I was like, all right, Herbert. But I will say, because I enjoyed two-thirds of it, I would recommend it. Nice. We did it. We did it. I can say I read Dune.

27:58And now when a guy at a party is like, but have you read Dune? No, you can say, but have you really read Dune? Have you really read Dune? Do you understand that ecology drives technology and culture? All right, let's wrap up by saying if you like this, recommend that. Parker, do you want to go for yours? Okay. All right. So this is full circle for me because so our first episode was about prejudice. Okay. Which is related. I'm seeing a lot of threads. It is related. So years ago, I watched the movie The Jane Austen Book Club. Okay. And in it, there's a guy in the book club who is a big sci-fi fan and is trying to convince a girl in the book club to read Ursula Le Guin.

28:40Okay. And because of that, it got me to read Ursula Le Guin in my early 20s. And so I recommended the very popular Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin. I just, that wasn't an excited, uh. No, no, no. I have never read it. No, no, no, no. It's about, like, gender on different planets. And it involves, like, a guy coming onto a planet and not trying to be a messiah or anything, but just trying to understand the people and is stuck in such a binary mindset that he's trying to, like, navigate this world. Yeah. mine is a comic book series I brought it with me because I read it on the train called Saga by Brian K.

29:29Vaughn and illustrated by Fiona Staples it is a similar Montague Capulet like two warring tribes the two fall in love, have a child and then they're just like on the run and one of the people in the relationship is a pacifist and that gets like tested a lot throughout the book about like how how much he's willing to sacrifice for his beliefs in pacifism. It's been recommended to me. It's so good. When you think about grand space operas, this doesn't have as much of the politics in it, but it is a vast scape of cultures and peoples and worlds that they're running away from. Yeah. My turn? Yeah.