A North Korean defector on why Kim Jong Un has sent troops to Ukraine

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:06Today, what North Korean troops are doing in Ukraine and what Kim Jong-un is getting out of it.

0:19My name is Hyun Sung Lee. I'm a former North Korean soldier. Here's a voice you don't often get to hear. My role was to infiltrate enemy lines and locate key targets, such as enemy artillery units, supply lines and commander posts. Like all North Korean men, Hyun-sung was conscripted into the army aged just 17. The length varies, but it's typically 7 to 10 years for male and then 5 to 7 years for female. Life as a soldier was hard. Living conditions for ordinary soldiers are very poor. Meals like basic and 70 % of corn and 30 % of white rice. No meat, no eggs for the ordinary soldiers. And the food quality is very insufficient in terms of the nutrition.

1:12The days were long and repetitive. We have political indoctrination session every morning. But due to the lack of food, we have to do more farming and involved in gathering woods from the mountains. For the rest of time, we do training, some martial arts and then combat technique. And staying clean and warm was a constant battle. Hygiene facilities are almost non-existent. Most soldiers wash their clothes and bathe in streams or rivers. And bathing and laundry are usually allowed once a week. And soldiers must gather their own firewood from nearby mountains for heating and cooking. The North Korean Army, the Korean People's Army to give it its proper name, is by some measures the biggest in the world.

2:06with almost a third of all Koreans either in active service, in a reservist role or in a paramilitary grouping. Yet very little is known about what goes on inside this secretive organisation. Partly because for decades they've spent all of their time at home defending the hermit kingdom. But all that changed last year when it emerged that North Korean troops had been sent to fight for Russia on the front line in Ukraine. In this video circulating online, what appears to be North Korean soldiers at a Russian training site. From The Guardian, I'm Helen Bade. Today in Focus, cannon fodder or strategic sacrifice?

2:45What North Korea gets from taking part in the war in Ukraine?

2:53Chin Lee, welcome to Today in Focus. Thank you so much for having me. You're the presidential chair of the East-West Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, which I imagine is lovely, and you are a North Korea expert, having been for quite some years the Pyongyang correspondent for the Associated Press. We're very glad that you are going to be our guide for today when we are looking particularly at the North Korean entry into Russia's war with Ukraine. Can you just start by reminding us when and how North Korean troops ended up on the ground in Ukraine? I would say that this is a military arrangement that has been at least three years in the making And that starts with North Korea's decision to recognize the breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

3:36That was in July of 2022. Ukraine has severed relations with North Korea over the regime's recognition of two pro-Russian separatist regions in eastern Ukraine. A year after that, we saw Russia's defense minister go to Pyongyang for this milestone war commemoration. That was in July of 2023. Kim Jong-un attended the parade with high-ranking military officials. It was the first visit to Pyongyang by a Russian defense minister since the breakup of the Soviet Union. So really notable. Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea, took the defense minister on a tour of an exhibition of weapons and military equipment.

4:19It is designed to show off and I would say advertise North Korea's very illicit weapons arsenal. On display was banned ballistic missiles, amongst other weapons. And analysts say this is significant because it could suggest Russia's acceptance of North Korea's nuclear program. And then, September of 2023, we saw Kim Jong-un take his special armored train to Vladivostok in Russia's Far East.

4:53So he got a close look at Russia's fighter jets, their warships, their hypersonic missiles. He also went to a satellite launch facility. There he had a summit with Vladimir Putin himself.

5:13It wasn't too long after that that we started to hear warnings from both South Korean and U.S. intelligence that they believed that North Korea was sending short-range ballistic missiles, rifles, rocket launchers, mortar shells to Russia. And then I would say the next big marker was in June of 2024. So last year when we saw Vladimir Putin himself fly to Piano for a visit that was treated with an astounding amount of pomp and circumstance. It was his first trip in 24 years to the North Korean capital. In one of the poorest countries in the world, all the stops were pulled out for Vladimir Putin.

5:56An isolated Kim Jong-un wanted to get his money's worth by way of recognition and reflected status. Any time you have a world leader flying to Pyongyang, gives Kim Jong-un this incredible opportunity for propaganda, because he can tell his people, look, this is proof that I am taken seriously on the world stage, that we have not been forgotten by our oldest friends. So, really significant trip. But of course, what came out of that, that we're concerned about, was a mutual defence treaty. The comprehensive partnership agreement signed today includes mutual assistance in the event of aggression against either one of the parties to this agreement.

6:36Right. And then in the autumn of 2024 is when we first hear that there are North Korean boots on the ground in Ukraine. Exactly. So it was actually the Ukrainian president himself in early November of 2024 announced that his troops engaged in their first combat with North Korean soldiers in Kursk. So the Russian territory that the Ukrainians had captured, he called this chapter a new chapter of global instability. And so since then, the estimate is that North Korea has sent between 14 and 15 ,000 troops to Russia for training and then on to the battlefield. and that's of course in addition to the thousands of containers millions of artillery shells the ballistic missiles and other weapons and what do we know about what the north koreans have actually been doing on the battlefield again it was the ukrainian president himself he shared the news on his social media in early february that two north korean soldiers had been captured and were being held by Ukraine as prisoners of war.

7:55There was a photo of the Russian military ID that one of the soldiers had been carrying, trying to present them as Siberians, maybe ethnic Mongolians, but also the video. The two North Korean soldiers were being interviewed as they were lying in bed. One of them did say that he was sent to Russia in November, had a week of training, and then was sent to the battlefield. And that that came as a complete surprise to him. He said he was told he was just going to Russia for training, not combat. And then also they believed that they were going to be fighting South Koreans. So they had no idea that the people that they were going to fight were Ukrainians.

8:47Some of the other things I think that may have been shocking to the outside world but weren't shocking to me was that so many of them were compelled to commit suicide before they were captured. They pull one injured Korean's leg, then realise he has a grenade. He detonates under his chin.

9:08His last words were to scream North Korean leader Kim Jong-un's name. I've been to so many military parades and the phrases that they chant are about sacrificing your life for Kim Jong-un. Really, sort of glory and death. Absolutely. And that goes back to the Korean War. So if you were looking at the propaganda and the imagery and the artwork around North Korean soldiers, so much of it is about making that ultimate sacrifice. So certainly we did hear from the soldiers that they regretted, that they weren't able to take that step. And what's the latest estimate about how many North Koreans have died in Ukraine?

9:45I saw pictures just last week of Kim Jong-un meeting bereaved families in Pyongyang. So the estimate that I've seen from South Korean military sources is that there have been thousands of casualties. It's probably gone up is 4 ,700, with about 600 of that being deaths. So at least a third of the troops who've been sent have suffered casualties.

10:20When you were in the army, what were you told you were training for? Were you basically part of a defense force or were you preparing for something bigger? We are told we are preparing for two things. One, a final war to liberate South Korea from the U.S. imperialists and reunify the peninsula under the Kim leadership. And second is defending the supreme leader from the U.S. imperialist aggressions. Right. So there's nothing defensive in mindset. Everything is about ideological offense. We were told we could die gloriously and be remembered forever. That was the ultimate reward. Okay. So to be a martyr, to die for North Korea is the ultimate honor.

11:07And did you believe it? You have no choice. You have to believe it. The regimes, the order and indoctrination was the ultimate education for us. And at age of 17, 18, you're not allowed to question those. In terms of the techniques and the weapons and the technology that you were using, did it feel like a modern fighting force? Not at all. I would say we are far from the modern warfare standards and we never used any technology. I would say my time 2000 to 2005, the only technology we used were the Morse code. Morse code? Yes, the communication device that used during the World War II. How did that feel for you at the time?

11:53You're being told that the North Korean army is the best in the world, better than the US. Did it feel like that when you are using, you're going, you know, you're doing your Morse code? It's very complicated because if you're in North Korea, you don't have outside information. So we had to believe and we had to follow the orders. But later, some soldiers or like me who had outside information during our high school time or college time, like we've seen some American movies. So we understood they have a stronger military capability, but still you cannot share with other peers. Out of interest, which U.S.

12:38movies were you able to watch as a teenager? We had some, you know, 007 movies. James Bond? Yes, James Bond and MI6. And we have very low quality videotapes. So sometimes we don't know the movie title. One movie I remember was, it was a Steven Seagal's, the movie that he was a cook on the battleship. I'm going to look it up. Steven Seagal, a cook on a ship, did you say? Under siege? That's the one. Yeah. A team of terrorists have taken over. Wake up the president. But there's just one thing they didn't count on. The cook.

13:23But if you did put your hand up in the indoctrination class and say, I watched this American film starring a guy called Steven Seagal and he's a cook on a ship and their ships look really, really advanced and they've got weapons I've never seen before. What would have happened to you if you had raised that? That's a really good question. And if you say so, you'll be either executed or imprisoned in public prison camp. And your family will be dragged to the public prison camp too. Oh, wow. Yeah. So we never dreaming of sharing the movie you saw and then the information I got from the outside. It's categorised as the crime against government.

14:08So we never talked in such, you know, controversial topics. So let's talk a bit about what's going on in Ukraine with the Russian army at the moment. Tell me, how prepared do you think the North Korean troops were for this deployment? Would their families have known? No. Any military movement in North Korea is a military secret. So they are not allowed to share their movement or location. In North Korea, we don't have cell phones or telephones. So you rarely call your families. And in most North Korean homes, they don't have phones there. So the main communication tool for many soldiers are writing letters.

14:53But because of the sensitivity, even writing letters won't be allowed. You served in the Storm Corps, which is the elite unit of the North Korean army. And it's the unit that has been deployed to Ukraine. What do we know about what they've actually been doing there? From the beginning, they were not expecting to be deployed to the battlefield. So they thought they are the supporting units. But eventually they ended up in the front line as cannon folder. They have more like the physical training and other trainings, but not like, you know, technological training. And especially they never experienced the drone attacks.

15:33So it's kind of new to them. Most North Korean soldiers were not familiar with Russia and Ukraine territory, surroundings, and they don't have motivation to fight. So everything is lacking. Basically, most of the soldiers were supposed to die in this battlefield, and Kim Jong-un is making money off those sacrifices. How is he making money off those sacrifices? According to the media report, the soldiers got paid$2 ,000 per month. North Korea never shared those money with the family members or soldiers. And even when I was in the North Korean military, I got paid 50 North Korean yen per month, which I can purchase a single ice cream.

16:24And even generals in North Korea, they are not paid enough. Their salary would be$1 per month. And mostly they relied on the government's rations.

16:40So Kim Jong-un is making the huge amount of money.

16:54Jean, Kim Jong-un is due to meet Vladimir Putin in China this week when he travels to attend a military parade marking Japan's surrender at the end of World War II. And it will be their third meeting in two years. Can you tell us a bit about the relationship between Russia and North Korea? We have to remember that the Soviet Union was modern North Korea's first benefactor. We saw the relationship fall away quite a bit after the breakup of the Soviet Union until Russia needed North Korea for the first time in many, many years, perhaps ever. North Korea had something that Russia needed. And that was a friend and a partner for this campaign in Ukraine.

17:34And the value for Vladimir Putin of having foot soldiers who might well be cannon fodder probably saves him some bodies, but also gives him a little bit of leverage in terms of selling this to the Russian people. In that sense, I think that the troops on the ground do play that frontline role that could help him prolong the conflict. But also, there are very few countries that have that Soviet era ammunition that Putin needs other than North Korea. They still have stockpiles of it, piles and piles of it. And I imagine that North Korea also is looking to generate the weaponry that Russia needs as well as part of this arrangement.

18:17We believe they've shipped millions of these munitions, but also weapons, guns, right? Anti-tank missiles, rocket launchers, and ballistic missiles. But also, what kind of advanced technology has Kim Jong-un negotiated from Putin in exchange for this? And there are some words that are signals in a sense. Russia has talked about North Korea's desire to explore space. It sounds so innocent in the sense that we all want to explore space, right? And they will say it's the peaceful exploration of space. But the technology used to send a satellite into space is the same technology that you use to send an intercontinental ballistic missile.

19:02And it's not to say that the North Koreans don't want to explore space. We always have to look at whether there's a dual nature to what it is they're doing. When it comes to North Korea's nuclear program, they have against all odds and despite sanctions, they have been able to advance it to a level that I don't think anyone could have comprehended or conceived 25, 30 years ago. How? How? They are incredibly clever. They have prioritized it. They have also, and this is the work that I do, raised quite a bit of money through cyber theft. Just recently are accused of stealing$1.5 billion through cryptocurrency theft.

19:44Oh, really? And they're using that to buy uranium or something? It gets divvied up in different places, but a good chunk of it is believed to go into the nuclear program. Now, when we think about what is next in terms of the expansion or the development of the arsenal, that's what we have to worry about. Are the Russians giving them some technical expertise that is going to get them to the next level? And that's why I say that that's the concern in the region. Because, of course, as the weapons become more advanced, you've got South Korea, you've got Japan, you've got neighbours in the region who are going to be very worried about their safety and security.

20:27and beyond this weapons exchange the two countries seem to be experimenting with some kind of cultural exchange aren't they it's now easier for example for russians to go on holiday in north korea after direct flights from moscow to north korea began in july the flights between moscow and pyongyang are interesting because the tourists are a very visible way for north korea and russia to show that this is a people-to-people exchange. And then on top of that, the propaganda that he gets from the relationship with Russia gives him so much validation at home and keeps him in power and gives him the justification to continue with his policies.

21:09Yeah. And how is China viewing all of this ever closer alignment with Russia? From 2008 up until a couple of years ago, China was providing 90 percent of the trade between North Korea and the outside world. So China was really the economic lifeline. And one of the things Beijing does not want is that kind of instability that comes with North Korean ambitions for its nuclear program. They share a very long border with North Korea. So I imagine that there is some concern in Beijing about that deepening relationship between North Korea and Russia. But I would say that this North Korea-Russia relationship just deepens the alliance among North Korea, Russia, China and Iran and gives them a bit more leverage in this challenge to what we call the rules-based international order.

22:02this system that was created to prevent conflict, right? In that sense, China is standing with Russia. But when it comes to this relationship, I'm sure there's a certain amount of nervousness as well. Coming up, what are North Korean soldiers learning on the battlefields of Ukraine? And where might they be deployed next?

22:35Yonsung, we're speaking to you now from the US because in 2014, you escaped the country and a major political purge from Kim Jong-un. When you look now at the involvement of North Korean troops in Ukraine, what do you think that they're gaining from the experience? Will they be learning new techniques? Do you think they're learning how to use different kinds of weapons? Yes, North Korean military are not totally ready for modern warfare, But this war gave them opportunity to experience modern affairs, like, you know, drones and other advanced technology. So I would say now the North Korean Storm Corps and special forces are getting more war combat experience than South Korean military.

23:20Really? If they survive? Yes, if they survive. That's true. That's a big difference when it comes to war. So if there were war between North Korea and South Korea, and I would say initially the North Korean soldiers will be superior than South Korean soldiers. Really? But eventually, you know, it will be the same at the end. So they would be superior because of what they've learned in Ukraine? That's correct. Do you think that North Korea's participation in the war in Ukraine poses a danger for the rest of the world beyond South Korea? Absolutely. And the more North Korean troops trained, they were highly likely sending more troops to other battlefields, not just Russia.

24:10And if Kim Jong-un got a huge amount of confidence in his military, I would say he could send troops to the Middle East. and he could send more armours and more military weapons to Middle East as well. So we shouldn't ignore the North Korean military, the capacity and development. We should be vigilant.

24:39We made an episode late in July with our man in Kiev who said that he thought the war in Ukraine could continue for as long as Putin is in the Kremlin, could run for years. Do you think that North Korea is also in it for the long game? I do think that Kim Jong-un is going to milk this relationship for as long as he can, as long as it's useful. And it has been very useful for a couple of years now. However, there are other elements at play for Kim Jong-un. He's got a new South Korean president who's much more engagement focused. I think a much bigger issue, of course, is that Donald Trump is in the White House.

25:19He's got a little more than three years left in office. And I would imagine that Kim Jong-un would like to take advantage of the relationship that they've built. We may not see anything come out of that anytime soon. But all of these are elements in his calculation. Will North Korea stick with Russia for the long run? I don't know. We'll say that they will stick with Russia for as long as it's useful. And it is extremely useful right now. Hopefully Russia hasn't handed everything over and has strategically withheld some of the technology. But perhaps if Kim Jong-un gets what he needs out of the relationship, then he may shift to other relationships.