BBC faces backlash after Bafta racial slur – The Latest

0:00Jason Okundaye:This is The Guardian.

0:12Jason Okundaye:I think what was especially baffling is the fact that no one actually came to speak to Michael B. Jordan or to Delory Lindo after the event. Michael B. Jordan has basically said that he was repulsed and also that his family who witnessed it were very upset too.

0:25Lucy Hough:Other cuts were made from the programme. Speech giving saying Free Palestine was cut. The BBC say while our edit was being done from a truck, we couldn't hear it. But I mean, it doesn't wash, does it?

0:36Jason Okundaye:It doesn't wash and it kind of beggars belief. I can't emphasise enough how much this is a failure of the BBC.

0:41Lucy Hough:The BBC is under fire for its handling of a racial slur heard during Sunday's BAFTA awards ceremony from someone with Tourette's syndrome. From The Guardians today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hall. I'm joined by Jason Okundaya, who is Assistant Opinion Editor at The Guardian. So you were at the BAFTAs on Sunday night when this incident took place. It sounds like BAFTA and the BBC had done quite a lot of work to prepare the audience who were there physically for the fact that there was going to be a member of the audience with Tourette's Syndrome, that audience member being John Davidson, on whom the film I Swear is based.

1:24Jason Okundaye:Yeah, so John Davidson was instantly introduced, you know, he stood up, there was applause, he waved at us, and there was just, you know, a good explanation that, you know, this is an inclusive space, John does have this tick disorder, and that, you know, if we hear any kind of sounds or even profanities, then this is due to the condition. So that was made very clear from the outset.

1:43Lucy Hough:But things obviously became very difficult when Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo were on stage presenting an award, the stars of the acclaimed film Sinners and a very offensive word was said. What was the reaction of the room?

1:59Jason Okundaye:Well, it was interesting because, you know, I have a decent understanding of Tourette's anyway and we did have the kind of context of, you know, the fact that he had this condition. So when it was, you know, then blurted out, I just thought, oh, this is really unfortunate and I felt the kind of awkwardness and actually seeing Delroy and Michael there on the stage and seeing the sort of colour and restraint of their face, that was quite sad. and it just felt like a situation which I just thought oh this is just unfortunate like this is a really sad thing that has happened and it doesn't feel like it was an inevitability but it felt like something that was a risk um in that particular situation and I also felt sad for John as well because I just thought you know if he you know he works as a caretaker in Scotland he's been a campaigner but like ultimately like this is not like his industry it's not where the center of his work is obviously he's been the subject of this film but if you've ever been to one of these award ceremonies or anything similar they're very pompous they're very you know overwhelming they're really beautiful and enchanting events um but to kind of go into that space it really requires a lot of courage a lot of bravery a lot of sort of like affirmation that you should be there and i think that you know he was kind of reassured that this was going to be this inclusive space and then i think that the way in which the bbc has handled this and obviously we'll come on to this later has sort of almost thrown him to the wolves and i think that has just been very sad for everyone.

3:16Lucy Hough:So let's stay with Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo for a second, because, I mean, it is a deeply uncomfortable watch, isn't it, to see them hearing that term used in front of so many people. You would have thought that there would be some degree of aftercare, of a public statement on the night, but it sounds like that was very much mishandled in terms of the care that they received.

3:39Jason Okundaye:Yeah, and obviously, despite understanding John's condition, I don't want anyone to downplay the gravity of that word, particularly you know if you are on stage and it's being directed at you and the kind of humiliation and confusion that you would feel in that moment and i think there is especially the dynamic of i mean del rey lundo is a british actor um but michael b jordan is an american actor and they both ultimately have come from the states you know they're at one of our award ceremonies and this happens it's it's a very unfortunate situation and i think you know in the room there were kind of audible gasps and whispers of like oh you know this is this is not ideal I think what was especially baffling is the fact that no one actually came to speak to Michael B.

4:14Jason Okundaye:Jordan or to Delroy Lindo after the event. Delroy Lindo basically said, you know, I wish someone had come and spoken to us. And Michael B. Jordan has basically said that, you know, he was repulsed and also that his family who witnessed it were very upset too. And you just think, you know, this is a very basic duty of care. And how could no one, there are so many execs in the room. There are so many staff members in the room. How does no one think to go up to them to reassure them afterwards or even to give them a bit more clarity on what exactly had happened?

4:40Lucy Hough:And crucially, the BBC is facing serious questions about not editing the use of that term from the footage that was broadcast. It's about two hours after the live show, isn't it? Other cuts were made from the programme. Speech giving saying Free Palestine was cut. The BBC say, well, our edit was being done from a truck. we couldn't hear it but i mean it doesn't wash does it it doesn't wash and it kind of beggars

5:07Jason Okundaye:belief because you know john has come out to say that you know he was told before the ceremony that any swears would be edited out warner bros which is you know the studio behind sin has gone in touch with bafta to say hey this has happened make sure that this does not make it to the broadcast so it's like at what point was there a sort of failure in communication and for what seems to be established is that the sort of producers in the truck got one of the incidents where he said the n-word but they didn't get the other one but i just i think this also kind of shows up the issue with having this two-hour delay um as well it's like clearly shows that it's not for purpose if it's not able to do what it's meant to do which is to pick up and kind of like manage for these kinds of incidents so it really beggars belief and like when the incident happened i remember texting my boss to be like this has just happened expect this to probably break tomorrow if people talk about it or if someone was recording on their phone i didn't for a second think that it would be broadcast live on television i think that it's just it's so ludicrous it is ludicrous

6:03Lucy Hough:and an upsetting for john davidson who spoke to variety magazine yesterday uh he says that he there was a microphone placed sort of fairly near him which meant that his tics it seems we don't know for sure what were amplified in a way that he definitely felt uncomfortable with we know that the filmmakers of sinners also felt uncomfortable about that as well but you've also written really beautifully in a piece for the guardian today about the nature of John's Tourette's syndrome that it is involuntary and that he says very clearly of course it would not be my intent to

6:36Jason Okundaye:use this word yeah so the variation of his Tourette's syndrome is known as corporalalia and you know it basically it doesn't betray any kind of unconscious thought it's not that you know he sees this person and he thinks this and he just can't stop himself from saying it it is that a kind of social context presents itself and there is some kind of message that goes through his brain and it can't be suppressed i think he says that you know it just comes out like a gunshot so it's said before he's even thought about it and i think you know there has been some awareness raising in the uk of people who with that condition as well so in 2011 the bbc had a documentary called um tourette's i swear i can sing um where there was a black woman on that program who basically said that you know no race no sexuality no religion is safe from the tics that come out because these tics are related to these socially taboo words to these profanities and i think it also should be clarified that you know the n-word tic wasn't the only thing that john had said that night he's come forward to say that when alan cumming the host was on stage and he made a joke in reference to his sexuality john then blurted out and pedophile and so it clearly shows that you know this is something which is very kind of like socially dependent it's a response to what's from you it's like going into an airport and yelling i've got a bomb i've got a bomb i've got a bomb you don't have a bomb you're not a terrorist but it's the worst possible thing that could be said in that situation and that's what the condition ends up making you do and i think that it's been disappointing to kind of see the online discourse suggesting that you know well this must have been in his soul or even bizarre suggesting to say you know well why was this word in his vocabulary anyway and it's like you know all of these terms you know all of these insults all of these sort of homophobic racist sexist terms are in all of our vocabularies because that is the world in which we live.

8:12Lucy Hough:Yeah, it's become a kind of binary of competing rights, particularly as this footage goes viral around the world. I mean, certainly in America, it's being shared very widely. But that, I think, it frames the conversation in the wrong way, doesn't it?

8:26Jason Okundaye:And I think this is especially where I can't emphasise enough how much this is a failure of the BBC. I mean, you can't necessarily predict social media reactions, but we are in a moment, you know, particularly on social media and in public discourse, which is just not fit for these kinds of issues, which wants to have competing interests, which wants to have a narrative or a side that is objectively right and that is objectively wrong and doesn't want to accept the sort of complexity and especially the most emotional complexity of these kinds of situations. So the way in which it's kind of being portrayed on social media is almost sort of set up as black people versus disabled people.

9:00Jason Okundaye:And I think what's been really sad about that has been the black people with Tourette who have been caught in the middle of this. You know, some of them are taken to TikTok or whatever of the platform to basically explain this and say, hey, look, obviously, this is really unfortunate. This is really upsetting. This word is really angering. But as a black person with Tourette's, I can say, you know, this person did not intend to do this. This is how it manifests for me. And I think there is something there in how this is especially troubling for black people as well. If you think about the sort of interaction of anti-black racism and a condition like this, you could imagine that a black person might be given less of the benefit of the doubt or that they might end up you know being put in dangerous situations let's say if they're interacting with police or kind of criminal enforcement so i think that you know people kind of always need to sort of stop and think about the real consequences of this about sort of setting this up as a sort of war between divided interests there is nothing about john being in that space which impinged on the right or myself or any other black person but it was up to the bbc and to bafta to kind of risk manage and to really accommodate for the potential of the situation and it does just look like there was just a wholesale failure and I think that it's brought up questions about the BBC but also as much as there is a sort of question of like who is to blame for what something that has been going around is that fact that you know of the 11 execs on BAFTA's board all of them are white and you know it then starts to throw out further questions of like you know well what can we actually say to this institution how does it resolve itself like does it point to something deeper.

10:26Jason Okundaye:The extent of that, we don't know.

10:28Lucy Hough:Yeah, and we should say that the BBC has apologised twice for any offence caused, but like you say, mounting questions about perhaps something more systemic. Jason, thank you so much.

10:39Jason Okundaye:Thank you for having me.

10:40Lucy Hough:That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Jason Okundire, who is Assistant Opinion Editor at The Guardian. Do read his brilliant piece published today on this. We'll put a link in the show notes. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest, the new evening edition of Today in Focus. We'll be in your feeds every weekday evening with what you need to know about the story everyone's talking about in around 10 minutes. Today in Focus will be back with you as usual tomorrow morning. The Latest will be back tomorrow night. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hoff. The producer was Bryony Moore.

11:10Lucy Hough:The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The lead producer was Zoe Hitch.

11:18Lucy Hough:This is The Guardian. you