Being trans in Britain in 2026

21 Sep 2026 · 30 min · 15 chapters

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In short

Britain’s 2026 EHRC statutory gender code and its impact on trans people’s access to single-sex spaces (toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, domestic violence shelters, prisons), including fears of being challenged and “toilet policing,” and the political push to change the law after a Supreme Court ruling.

Guest backgrounds

Amelia (27, trans woman; from the South Coast, living in London; came out publicly in 2019; studying social work; previously comfortable using women’s toilets). Peter Walker (Guardian senior political correspondent). Alfie Bailey Beerfield (trans man; moved from Belgium to the UK 15 years ago; advocacy lead, Trans Solidarity Alliance). Nadine (50; trans son aged 13; speaks for trans youth). Carrie (40; cis woman who’s sometimes perceived as a man; reports increased intimidation). Col (trans woman, 65; used women’s toilets for 30 years). Samantha Niblett MP (Labour MP for South Derbyshire; trans ally). Also referenced: Vicky Foxcroft MP (met with Amelia).

Key claims

The EHRC code interprets “woman/sex” as biological sex, meaning trans women should use men’s facilities; this has increased fear, reduced public outings, and created practical dilemmas (including disabled toilets). The guidance allows staff to challenge someone if there are “realistic grounds” they’re trying to “game the system,” but critics say it creates stress and conflict. Supporters argue it protects women in vulnerable single-sex settings; Amelia disputes the premise and cites lack of evidence that being trans causes violence. Campaigners say Labour could change the law but may be politically cautious.

Notable examples

Amelia assessing toilets at a pub near Westminster; holding urine leading to UTIs; being followed while a person screamed slurs; hospital fears about “third spaces.” The episode discusses the Supreme Court case context involving Isla Bryson (a rapist who transitioned) and the Scottish group Four Women Scotland challenging the law.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Navigating Public Spaces: A New Reality

0:58 to 2:14

Amelia shares her experiences in public spaces under the new guidelines.

“So I think we're going to pop into a proper Westminster institution, the Red Lion.”

The Impact of the New Gender Code

2:14 to 3:41

Discussion on how the new guidance affects trans people's lives and freedoms.

“that is just like running through my head right now.”

Legal Background: Court Decisions and Their Consequences

3:41 to 6:20

Exploring the legal history leading to the current situation for trans individuals.

“The fight continues over Britain's new gender code.”

Confusion Over Implementation of New Guidelines

6:20 to 7:28

Analyzing the complexities and confusions surrounding the new EHRC guidelines.

“for this body called the Equality and Human Rights Commission, or EHRC, to essentially tell them what to do about this ruling, how to interpret it.”

Responses from Organizations and the Public

7:28 to 9:21

How various organizations and the public are reacting to the new guidelines.

“And I know that the new Code of Conduct only came in in August, but how have big organisations responded so far?”

Personal Stories: Amelia’s Experience

9:21 to 14:00

Amelia discusses her personal experiences navigating life as a trans woman post-guidelines.

“I think other ones are just trying to lie low and say we're going to carry on doing what we're doing and hope that they don't get noticed.”

Concerns About Healthcare for Trans Individuals

14:00 to 16:42

Learn about the fears and challenges faced by trans people in healthcare settings.

“Like there's going to be no third space.”

Lobbying for Change in Parliament

16:42 to 18:10

Discover the motivations behind a mass lobby against EHRC guidelines in the UK.

“In this case, to campaign against the EHRC guidelines and demand a change in law.”

Personal Experiences of Trans Individuals

18:10 to 19:46

Hear personal stories highlighting the difficulties faced by trans people in society.

“This is a political choice and we're only here because successive governments have either been too scared to confront a very small minority of people who are very upset or because they haven't been sure what to do.”

Historical Context and Regression in Rights

19:46 to 21:25

Understand the historical context of trans rights and the perceived regression in recent years.

“I've been toilet policed and I've had people be intimidating to me in public places.”
Show all 15 chapters

Historical Context and Regression in Rights

23:16 to 23:42

Understand the historical context of trans rights and the perceived regression in recent years.

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Political Will and Future of Trans Rights

23:51 to 28:00

Explore the political landscape surrounding trans rights and potential changes to the law.

“Do you think that there's enough political will among the Labour Party to actually do anything about this?”

Andy Burnham's Stance on Trans Issues

28:00 to 30:00

A discussion on the political climate surrounding trans rights and Andy Burnham's potential response.

“And where do you think Andy Burnham is on this issue?”

Amelia's Meeting with MP Vicky Foxcroft

30:00 to 30:49

Amelia shares her experience and insights from her meeting with MP Vicky Foxcroft on trans issues.

“Where are you going to take that energy?”

Amelia's Meeting with MP Vicky Foxcroft

31:20 to 32:16

Amelia shares her experience and insights from her meeting with MP Vicky Foxcroft on trans issues.

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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07Today, from toilets to hospital wards, where are trans people supposed to go in 2026?

0:31See coming the decisions you don't feel ready to make. It all leaves you wondering, do you own your home or does it own you? I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. And in my new podcast, Own It, I'm talking to the experts for real talk and real tips to understand what homeownership really takes. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts.

0:58So I think we're going to pop into a proper Westminster institution, the Red Lion. Oh, I've never actually been here before. Since last month, thousands of people around Britain have been navigating a painful new reality. 27-year-old Amelia is one of them. Every time I enter a pub, I like to get the vibe. To show you what that's like, we've come to an ornately decorated pub near the Houses of Parliament. It is quite a beautiful pub, I think. Yeah, it looks very beautiful on the outside. There's a mock oil painting of Winston Churchill, wood panelling and the faint stale whiff universal to all British pubs.

1:33When most of us come out for a drink, we might be debating between a lager and an IPA. But Amelia, she's thinking about the toilets. So when you walk in a place, you're immediately kind of assessing where are the loos? Yeah, and like having to keep tabs on the toilets and like whether I'm going to need one soon or something like that, you know what I mean? We walk upstairs to see what the facilities are like. We're looking at a ladies' toilet and a gentleman's toilet. Well, I'm noticing the absence of a disabled toilet, so that's obviously put me on edge a little bit. I'm now having to sort of in my head mentally prepare to go in there and for anything to happen.

2:12It's that fear, it's the underlying fear that the code has really brought out that is just like running through my head right now. The code, that's the source of this new reality. It's statutory guidance from Britain's Equalities Watchdog. Rules that pubs like this have had to follow since August. What it means for Amelia and trans women like her is that in this situation, she should use the men's bathroom. I've got long blonde hair, I'm wearing bright red lipstick, I've got a crop top on and some jeans. I'm dressed very feminine. If I was to go into a male toilet, like, dressed as this, something's going to happen.

2:50I don't know what's going to happen, but something is going to happen. It's not just public toilets. It's changing rooms, hospital wards, domestic violence shelters. If you're a trans person in Britain, the code says you shouldn't be in the place that fits your gender identity. Biological sex is what matters now. For most of us, this change may have been completely imperceptible, not even on our radars. But for many trans people, it's completely upended their lives. This is the first major instance in my lifetime of a policy being passed that has effectively stopped me from doing a very, very common thing that I do in life, which is use the bathroom.

3:36And it's causing people to not want to go out. You know, it's causing trans people to not want to go into public spaces. It's causing us to stay shut in. It's ruining a lot of people's lives. It's just the inability to be free. From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Today in Focus. The fight continues over Britain's new gender code.

4:03Peter Walker, you're a senior political correspondent for The Guardian. Thanks for being back with us. Thank you. Pleasure. So how did we get here? So we got here because when asked to look into it, the Supreme Court concluded that there was a contradiction between the Equalities Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, which sounds very, very naughty. But basically for quite a long time, there was a thing that if you had a gender recognition certificate under law, if you were a trans man who'd transitioned from being a woman, you were treated under law as being a man and vice versa. But there was a small number of cases in which, you know, predatory men would game the system by self-identifying as a trans woman and trying to get themselves into women's spaces, which in a couple of high profile cases did actually take place.

4:52Our top story tonight, questions over why a rapist transitioning to become a woman was remanded to a female jail. While she was in Newhall, she sexually assaulted two inmates who she befriended. The whole crux of this issue is how do you balance the right of spaces which are necessarily single sex, particularly spaces where women are particularly vulnerable, like domestic refuges and also prisons, against the right of transgender people to be treated as the gender into which they are living. And then there was this Scottish group called Four Winners Scotland who challenged it. We never set out to change the law We were very sure this was the law And we just wanted the law to be enforced In places and services and spaces Where it really, really matters to have single-sex facilities The Supreme Court basically said We actually agree with you That under the Equalities Act 2010 The definition of a man or a woman Is not their gender But the biological sex into which they were born The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex.

6:09And that basically threw everything up in the air.

6:17So the Supreme Court judgment was last year, but then everyone was waiting for ages, really, for this body called the Equality and Human Rights Commission, or EHRC, to essentially tell them what to do about this ruling, how to interpret it. And that's because the EHRC writes a statutory code of practice, which helps organisations interpret this equality law. And they've published this massive document. It's nearly 350 pages long, Guidance, which came into force in August. I've taken a look at it and I thought it was going to be pretty straightforward, but it's actually really confusing because it says on the one hand that trans people can be excluded from single sex spaces like changing rooms or toilets.

6:57But then at the same time, it's saying that they shouldn't be discriminated against because gender identity remains a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. And I just wonder, do you think that it does provide clarity on what organisations should do and how they should be policing something like this, something so very personal? I mean, they've given it a good go, but it's impossible really to provide clarity on something where there will always be this rubbing up of two different sets of rights. some organizations have said that they're worried that if they do an interpretation that unfairly discriminates against trans people they'll get a lawsuit from that side but if they over interpret it the other way then gender critical women's groups will you know sue them the other way in terms of how you enforce it there is a deliberate bit of a fudge it's a little reminiscent of the way the u.s military in the past used to have an approach towards gay people which is don't ask don't tell the idea is that it's not up to people to become the toilet police and say hang on you don't look like a stereotypical man or woman you know what's going on but it does basically say that if there are realistic grounds for thinking someone is trying to you know gain the system by being a man trying to go into women's only space then you are allowed to challenge them and the worry for transgender people you know and for other people who don't necessarily present in a stereotypical way of the gender in which they live, is that it could cause not necessarily people being challenged, but just awkwardness and difficulty and just stress, really.

8:35And I know that the new Code of Conduct only came in in August, but how have big organisations responded so far? Have any of them actually changed their rules as a result? Some have. The Women's Institute and Girl Guiding have said that they will no longer be able to accept trans women and girls. You know, they both said that they didn't want to do that, but they feel they have no choice. Some organisations have slightly pushed back. The Hampstead Outdoor Swimming Ponds, the people who organised those have said that the women's pond will be open to trans women. I mean, as with all these things, there is a risk it just becomes a job creation scheme for lawyers and that is only going to be tested in the courts again.

9:14It also depends how much of an appetite people have still got for a fight. and some organisations have basically said we're going to take the cautious route. I think other ones are just trying to lie low and say we're going to carry on doing what we're doing and hope that they don't get noticed.

9:37Alright, I'm just going to wait. I'm waiting in my ear for them to tell us that they're recording and then we can go. At the start of this episode, you heard from Amelia as she navigated the new perils of going to the toilet as a trans woman in Britain. But before we went to the pub, we sat down together in the Guardian studio so I could learn a bit more about how the new EHRC code has changed her life. Amelia is originally from the South Coast, but she's currently living in London, looking to study social work. I have a history in media. She told me that she realised she was trans in her early teens and came out publicly in 2019.

10:13My family was accepting, little to no problems, So very, very lucky in that aspect. And then, yeah, just been smooth sailing from that point. And tell me, until the past year or so about your daily life and just navigating the world as a trans woman. What was it like? Things are always kind of a bit difficult being trans. I like to call it like the fear. It's just the fear of what if someone is not accepting? What if someone's going to do something? Prior to the EHRC guidance, that was a negligible fear. like it was not something I really considered I had other things to do you know and now it's kind of because of this it's been thrust into the foresight like it's now given people carte blanche to act upon their feelings I think it's almost like the sort of guidance itself was like a watershed moment yeah and the guidance which was published last month says that single sex spaces are now only open to those whose biological sex corresponds so that in practice means you as a trans woman should be using male facilities which is insane it just boggles my mind because there are certain people who are saying well you know it's not barring you from public toilets it's just saying that you have to use specific ones and it's like i have to either use the one that will 99 of the chance like put me in danger in terms of using male toilets or i have to expect a place to have either a gender neutral or disabled toilets.

11:45And again, like, I shouldn't have to use disabled toilets because they're for disabled people. What if a disabled person needs to use a toilet and I have to use it because of this guidance? Yeah. And have you changed your behaviour at all since the guidance came into force in August? And tell me about that. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. When it came into effect, I don't think I used public toilets for a good while. Did that mean that you were not leaving the house or were you like choosing shots instead of pints? If that doesn't sound too fast. Yeah, no, my bladder struggled. It was a difficult time.

12:17And that's the other thing is that outside of like the actual intrinsic danger of like being forced to use men's toilets, holding in for that long can really cause like... UTIs. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, yeah, it was a really difficult time. like I've only just started feeling comfortable with using them again and the first time I went back into one I was terrified there wasn't even anyone in there but I was absolutely where were you um I think it was just a pub toilet I think it was like weatherspoons or something which made it like feel a bit scarier because obviously it's a lot of people having alcohol and that can cause people to act out sometimes shall I say but yeah it was just terrifying Which toilet did you use?

13:03I used the women's. I used the women's. I'm not ashamed to say that because I've been using the women's for years and I've never had a problem. The only time someone has said something to me in the women's toilets was someone complimenting my trousers. I've never felt like I'm a threat to someone being in the toilets. And have you thought about what you might do if someone were to challenge you? I think the best thing to do is to just do whatever you're doing and then just leave and then hope that they don't do anything physical or continue to follow you, as some people have done to me, not in bathrooms, but in public spaces.

13:38What, you've been followed? I've been followed a couple of times. There was this one person who was driving a moped on the pavement and I kind of shook my head. They kind of saw me when I did that, realised I was trans and then just followed me screaming slurs for about five minutes, I think. When was this? About a month ago. And it's not the first time that something similar to that has happened.

14:11and what about um something like going to the doctors or if you i don't need to go to a and e something like that how are you feeling about that with a and e and like hospitalization i'm terrified you know when west streeting was the health secretary he was talking a lot about this about like, oh, well, we'll find a third space. And it's like the NHS is packed. Like there's going to be no third space. Where are they going to put me? Are they going to put me in a mail ward or are they just going to put me in a corridor somewhere? And it's just all these possibilities. I think that's what it is.

14:39It's the what ifs based on things that have happened to me in the past and others. And I think there might be people who are listening to what you're saying and kind of very sympathetic towards trans people, but think that hospitals are a tricky case because it's a place where people are very vulnerable. People might not be acting like themselves. They might be having very intimate treatment. There might be a lot of inhibition there. It might be a psychiatric care. Do you sort of understand that the people do think it's not as straightforward, perhaps, as toilet? I understand that. Here's the thing.

15:11It's almost like there's an inherent thing that's like, okay, so trans women, they used to be men, so therefore they're a little bit more dangerous than women. And I think that that is, well, quite frankly, I think it's balderdash. if someone were to do something let's say criminal and they were trans and they did it in hospital they did not do that thing because they were trans there is no evidence to suggest that they did that thing because they were trans i hate to bring her up but like just because isla bryson has done something doesn't mean i'm going to do so she was the rapist in a scottish prison who transitioned after having committed rape yeah one living as a man that's right and i find what she did disgusting i find it abhorrent i don't want to be associated with her because transition is not the only thing about me and it's also not the thing that caused Isla Bryson to do the thing that she did.

15:57But you know gender critical campaigners as well as people who wouldn't necessarily identify themselves as such would say you know that these new guidelines will help keep women safe, cis women, biological women. Do you understand that position? No because I'm not a man. I'm not a man and if they are so hell-bent on treating me like a man then I don't want anything to do with them.

16:32After the interview, we hop on the tube to Westminster. Amelia is going to Parliament to take part in something called a mass lobby. It's a chance for a large group of people who want the same thing to come to meet their MPs together. In this case, to campaign against the EHRC guidelines and demand a change in law. Did you say you've been inside the House of Parliament before? Yes, yes. One when I was very, very, very young. With Big Ben casting an imposing figure over the crowd, we arrive at the entrance where people are queuing up to get into Westminster Hall. We're definitely in the right place.

17:04We've just spotted a trans pride flag. Before going in ourselves, we grab a chat with one of the organisers. There's so many people who have come down to speak to their MPs. Alfie Bailey Beerfield, the advocacy lead for Trans Solidarity Alliance. He's a trans man who moved to the UK 15 years ago from Belgium. I wouldn't normally dwell on somebody's appearance for our podcast, but I think it's relevant for what I'm about to say next, which is that you've got a crew cut, you've got some stubble, and according to the guidance, you should now be using female toilets. Well, in many circumstances, I should actually not be using either because the guidance acknowledges that as someone who looks like a man, I could still make people feel uncomfortable.

17:47So I'm in a lot of situations now where I really don't know if I have anywhere to go to the toilet, anywhere to go and get changed because I shouldn't be going to the women's toilet and I shouldn't be going to the men's toilet. And I just think that's an example of why this is absolutely unworkable as a situation. And what's your big ask today? What do you actually want the MPs to do? I think for us the big ask is that politicians have the tools and the power to fix this. This is a political choice and we're only here because successive governments have either been too scared to confront a very small minority of people who are very upset or because they haven't been sure what to do.

18:30But there is a very clear answer here and that answer is fix the law so that they can just do the things that everybody else does in their lives. I want to hear what others in the queue are planning to say to their representatives, and I end up chatting with 50-year-old Nadine. Nadine, what brings you here? Well, I have a trans son who's 13, and I'm here to kind of speak up for trans youth. Even when my son's out and about, he doesn't want to drink water. When he's out and about, because of fear of using the toilet, he doesn't want to go and use the bathroom, doesn't know which one to use, feels confused.

19:06And I don't think that any child should have to go through that. So many trans youths just don't feel safe in school. You know, with changing rooms, trans youths are getting pushed out of all the facilities that they have there. It feels like rights are just the human rights are being eroded. It just feels like a slippery slope at the moment, and it can't continue. I notice a woman with cropped hair. She's wearing a smart grey suit and a she-her badge perched on her lapel. She introduces herself as Carrie. She's 40. And she's what would be considered under the law a biological woman. But she prefers a different term.

19:39The Supreme Court ruling on sex and gender has made things worse for me as a cisgender woman who sometimes gets perceived as a man. I've been toilet policed and I've had people be intimidating to me in public places. But at the same time, I know that things are much, much worse for a lot of my trans friends. When you said that you have been toilet policed, has that increased since the Supreme Court ruling and the guidance came out last year? it's increased and also it's become more aggressive. There was one incident in particular where when I started talking to somebody, I think she realised that she was talking to a woman.

20:11She'd kind of come on very aggressively and then she didn't apologise and she actually seemed really disappointed that she decided now that I was a woman. I think she'd thought that if I was a trans person, it felt like she'd really hyped herself up for a confrontation and was really angry that she wasn't going to get it. So it felt like if I hadn't been able to persuade her that I was a cis woman or if I had been trans and she'd realised that, it felt like it would have been a really scary situation. After speaking with Carrie, I noticed Col. It's impossible to miss her. I dressed down today.

20:43I was like, I'm going to lobby Parliament. I can't wear my usual stupid stuff. And as I left the house, I thought, I think I've made a bit of a mistake. I'm going to describe this fabulous dress. Fuchsia? Yeah. Fuchsia, covered in butterflies. You've got a sort of diamante cherry brooch. Gorgeous, sparkly trainers. And Cole has a really interesting perspective. She's trans, 65, and has been using women's toilets for 30 years. And she's lived through seismic shifts in the law and societal attitudes towards trans people. I genuinely believe over the last 30 years that things for me improved. They got much, much better to the point I wasn't getting verbally harassed in the street or sexually harassed in a club.

21:23about 2014 I would say was the what we didn't realize then was the sweet spot on the graph and then post Brexit it got worse and worse and worse and now it is we are back to where we were 30 years ago really it feels oh yeah so I was married my wife's passed away now but I would you know go out and if my wife wasn't in London going out with me she would make sure that I phoned her as soon as I got in to tell her I was safe because that's how unsafe it was back then And now I've gone back to doing that again. Every time I go out now, even if I'm just coming home from work, I will text the people I work with going, I'm home, I'm safe.

22:02I'm old enough to remember Section 28. And I remember how that affected people, and I remember that that eventually fell. So I'm hoping that this nonsense will go the way of Section 28. That law basically banned teachers from talking or teaching about homosexuality, and it was repealed more than 20 years ago after mass protests. But in this case, what is the likelihood that the government will do anything about the new restrictions on trans people? That's coming up.

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23:50And the campaigners that we spoke to are hoping that the government will change the law. How likely do you think this is? Do you think that there's enough political will among the Labour Party to actually do anything about this? If you speak to Labour MPs who've taken an interest in this, you know, from the point of view of what they see as the eroded rights of trans people, then they will generally say that inevitably there's going to have to be a change to the law and it's the responsibility of parliament to do this particularly when there are warriors outside human rights groups are marking the uk down in terms of its performance on trans rights it's quite notable yeah and actually we heard at the mass lobby from a slovenian scientist who lives and works here in the uk and he was essentially arguing that same point this idea that these regulations are bad for Britain's international reputation.

24:40Britain currently is, as far as I can determine, the most institutionally transphobic country this side of the Danube. I know two world-class solid-state physicists who are trans. Well, now they're apparently no longer allowed to shit in their own laboratories in the correct toilet. Why would they stay here? They can go to Iceland, to Norway, to Ireland, to France.

25:06The political reality is that ministers, and almost certainly Andy Burnham, I have to say I've never asked him about this specific issue, would much rather secretly want this just to go away and for everything to be normal, because the whole trans rights debate was so vexed. And for Labour, it was quite difficult because they were pro-trans rights. And there's a whole media infrastructure which is geared towards simplifying this and asking questions like, you know, can a woman have a penis? A woman can have a penis. Nick, I'm not. I don't think we can conduct this debate with, you know. Sorry, I offended you.

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25:47No, no, no. Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Well, it is something that shouldn't be said. It is not right. But Andrew, I don't think... If you're being interviewed by The Telegraph or GB News, it's just not much fun. And I don't think they're going to be running towards this issue. Will the pressure from MPs become too much such that they have to do it? I mean, my guess is it's not going to be immediate, but probably at some point something will need to be done. So we've made it into Westminster Hall, a really grand Assembly Hall of Parliament, and it's pretty chock-a-block full of people waiting for meetings with their MPs.

26:34So we are in Westminster Hall with Samantha Niblett MP, who is Labour MP for South Derbyshire. What has brought you down here today? I'm here because I'm a pretty out-and-loud trans ally, always have been, always will be. I just want people to know that they have got MPs on their side fighting for the things that they want. When we spoke to the organisers of this lobby, they seemed convinced that it would be possible for the Labour government to change the law, to sort of put things back how they used to be. Is that your understanding? Have you got the power to do that? Well, we're in power. I would love to tell you that we've got a big enough majority to push it through, but I suspect there are mixed feelings within, well, I know there are mixed feelings within our party, but I'd certainly say within some of the opposition parties there's some keen support from the Greens and the Lib Dems, I suspect.

27:22And some gender-critical groups, women's rights groups, celebrated the Supreme Court judgment and the new guidance that's come out saying great women are being protected now. What would you say to them? I struggle to see how it's protecting anybody. And if anything, if you look at proportionality, the number of trans people there are in the country, then make it the number of trans women there are in the country, And then take the number of trans women that are attracted to women. The numbers of people that could be threatening is just dwindling and dwindling and dwindling. And then take into account a trans woman who's attracted to women, who then wants to do harm to another woman.

27:58I mean, the numbers are just minute. And where do you think Andy Burnham is on this issue? Oh, it's a good question, isn't it? I'm waiting for him to have a Mandani moment. I really am. There was a beautiful, beautiful post by Mandani, obviously the mayor of New York, just having zero tolerance for hatred towards trans people. And I read it and I just said, come on. I liked it to myself. I was like, come on, Andy, have a Mandani moment. He was the mayor for Greater Manchester. He's always been strong on LGBT rights. I haven't heard anything from him on this yet. I just think people have felt nervous about giving their support because it's become a political football that's been polarised to what is a woman.

28:37because when people are picking a side and they're picking the side of being against trans people, they're doing it based on fear. And not everybody looks into this in great detail. So if they've landed out, this is dangerous to you, well, then their knee-jerk is going to be to listen to the silly things like a woman with a penis is going to come and attack you in a toilet. And so I'm really keen, really keen, to work on some messaging that cuts through. While I was talking to Samantha Niblett, Amelia was meeting with her MP, Vicky Foxcroft. I can see Amelia. After they wrap up their meeting, I spot Amelia outside.

29:09So how was it? Yeah, it was good, it was good. It was very chaotic in there in Westminster Hall. It kind of felt like we were in an auction house or something with people yelling out MP names. I spoke to Vicky, we had a group of us that was about, I want to say about six or seven of us. We each asked a question and then she kind of collectively answered them. There was one particularly good question about the issue with homelessness and gender-specific homelessness shelters, like what should trans people do as a result of that? And then there were some that were kind of more general, like, are you going to be vocal?

29:42Are you going to be committed? That sort of thing. And she answered them well. And are you going away feeling a little bit more optimistic? I am. I'm actually feeling weirdly energised. I think it's partly the adrenaline of doing something like this, but also it was just nice to talk with an MP and feel like you're being listened to. You know, you've said that you're leaving here weirdly energised, Where are you going to take that energy? I'm going to take that energy and I'm going to love myself. I think that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to love my community. I think that it was a sign that as much as things are really, really bleak right now and people have a right to be upset and angry and everything, I think even outside of our meeting, the sheer turnout of how many people are here.

30:26It's been a good few hours and the line is still massive. We're kind of looking at it right now. It's absolutely huge still. and so I guess just seeing that turn up itself is an amazing thing. Does it make you feel a bit less alone? Yes, exactly.

30:43And that's all for today. Thank you to Amelia, to Peter Walker and everyone who spoke to us at the Mass Lobby. This episode was produced by Saskia Colette and presented by me, Helen Pitt. Sound design was by Brian McNamara and executive producer was Sammy Kent. We'll be back in your feed this afternoon with the latest.

31:09This is The Guardian.

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