Can Syria keep the world safe from IS fighters?

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07Today, could ISIS fighters escape the prisons and camps of Syria?

0:18So for the last week, we've been following the battle between Kurdish-led forces and Syrian government forces in northeast Syria. Will Christou, who covers the Middle East for The Guardian, was at home in Beirut when the Syrian government launched a lightning strike against the Kurds in the northeast of the country. All of a sudden, two major provinces that were under the Kurdish forces control fell in a number of hours and Syrian government forces swept in.

0:49When the new government came into power after the fall of the Assad regime in 2024, the Kurds, who were backed by the US, controlled almost a quarter of Syria. And their territory included the prisons and camps housing thousands of former IS fighters, women and children. A few hours later, we started hearing that Syrian government forces were getting close to Al-Hol camp, which is the largest camp in the world that houses suspected members of the Islamic State. And then very quickly after that, we heard that they had actually entered the camp. and they had controlled it. So we immediately dropped everything and we headed over.

1:30It was a bit surreal because the last time I'd been there was about a year ago, and that's when the Kurds were controlling it. You know, when I got there, it was completely different from what I remembered. It was in chaos. The Syrian and Iraqi residents were pushed up against the fence. They seemed anxious. You know, they told us that bread hadn't entered the camp in two days, and they didn't know what was happening.

1:58Now, in the mayhem of the Syrian government's advance, and with the US turning its back on the Kurds, security had broken down. Parts of the camp were burning. Holes had been cut in the fence that surrounded the foreigners' annex, which holds people suspected of being members of ISIS from 42 different countries. You know, it had been clear that there had been some escape attempts the night before.

2:26And Syrian government forces I spoke to, who now had become the prison guards, told me they had been up all night and they looked stunned. From The Guardian, I'm Annie Kelly. Today on Focus, bloodshed and betrayal in Syria.

2:46Well, Christy, you cover the Middle East for The Guardian and you've spent this week reporting from prisons and camps in northeast Syria, which are still holding former IS fighters and their families, who've been there since IS was effectively defeated in 2019. And in particular, over the last few days, you've visited one of the most infamous of these camps, Al-Hawl. Can you just take us there? Describe what it's like. I think the first thing you notice about Al-Hawl is how far away it is from everything else in the world. is tucked away in a remote corner of northern Syria in the desert, where there's no cell service, and the roads are bumpy and pockmarked, and really there's not much around.

3:28The second thing you notice about the camp is just how big it is. I mean, you're talking thousands of tents. This is the biggest camp in the world for suspected members of ISIS. At its peak, it contains 75 ,000 people. Now that's dropped to about 25 ,000. You walk in and it is a heavily securitized place. There's security guards everywhere, fences upon fences. The camp is split into two parts. The first, which is the biggest part, contains Syrians and Iraqis. And this is a little bit more open than the other part. It has a marketplace, people have more access to NGOs. And the second area is called the Foreigners Annex.

4:11And this is a more heavily fortified, securitized zone. This is the foreigners' annex of a whole camp. Behind me are thousands of women and children from more than 42 nationalities that are suspected of having links to the Islamic State. And this contains people who travel to Syria, allegedly, to join the Islamic State. And you have people that came from everywhere. Most of the kids speak Arabic fairly well, but between them they'll switch into Bosnian, Turkmen, and a multitude of different languages, some of which I couldn't even identify. When you see pictures and videos of the camp in this part of Syria, they look like such desolate places.

4:49You know, when you're actually there on the ground, is that also the sense that you got that these were kind of forgotten, neglected places where people have just been left to see out the days years and years now? Absolutely. I mean, out of sight, out of mind. Not only is this place in the middle of nowhere, but it's miserable, it's muddy, it's cold. Oftentimes there's been reports of people suffocating, asphyxiating, because they're so cold at the camps that they try to, you know, light coals, for example, in their tents, and they suffocate to death at night. You know, in the confusion of the handover from Kurdish to Syrian government forces, NGOs stopped working there.

5:25Food and water stopped getting in. So it's quite a dire humanitarian situation there. But even in the best of times, you know, this is a squalid place. You know, one striking thing you see when you're at the camp is that there's so many children who are young. You know, I was speaking to one woman and her daughter, and I asked her daughter how old she was. She was 10 years old, and she'd been in the camp for eight years, meaning she knows nothing but a life behind bars.

5:56And, you know, whether or not her mother had been a member of ISIS doesn't really mean that this girl should grow up in this camp where she has limited access to education and really a life that's less than a kilometer squared.

6:17And rights groups have brought this up numerous times. They say that life in the camp is essentially indefinite detention. People who are there are suspected of being members of ISIS, but they've not seen a trial, they don't have formal charges against them, and they don't really have a way to get out. And they've been sitting there for years.

6:43Could you just explain to us why it was that until last week it was the Kurds who were in control of these camps? So when ISIS started taking over big parts of Syria and Iraq, the US and other international countries started to look for a local partner on the ground they could fight ISIS with. We need countries in the region who are at most direct threat from ISIS to step up to the plate and join this coalition. So certainly U.S. leadership is planning... And the people they turned to were Kurdish militias in Syria and Iraq. So in 2015, the International Coalition, this collection of countries that came together to defeat ISIS, started partnering with the Kurds, and they equipped them with weapons.

7:24They started training them. They gave them air support. And alongside them, they led a four-year-long battle to defeat ISIS. The front line is now 40 miles away on the outskirts of Raqqa City. that is now surrounded by coalition-backed Syrian, Kurdish, and Arab fighters. The forces are claiming a big win over ISIS. There is an ongoing battle, we believe, between Kurdish fighters on that Syrian side of the border and ISIS. The gunfire has been... And in 2019, they ultimately ended what ISIS called its caliphate. And when that happened, all those people that were living under ISIS control, about 75 ,000 people, were swept into a whole camp.

8:01And this was a mixture of Syrians and Iraqis, Bosnians, of Turkmenistanis, Uyghurs, you name it. And the idea at the time was this was going to be a temporary solution, you know, a displacement camp. Sort people out, see who had blood on their hands and really see others. But, you know, the Kurds weren't able to sort through the massive amount of people. And there was very little international interest in taking back citizens. You know, most countries left their citizens in this camp to languish, wash their hands of them. and said good riddance. You know, most famously among them is Shamima Begum, a formerly UK citizen who traveled to the caliphate in Syria when she was 15.

8:40And the UK has stripped her of her citizenship since. I say from the bottom of my heart that I am so sorry if I ever offended anyone by coming here, if I ever offended anyone by the things I said in hall. I just said those things because I lived in fear of the women. And, you know, credit to the Kurds, it's very difficult to be not even a state and combat ISIS and try to provide services for tens of thousands of people either suspected of being fighters or being the families of fighters. But it became a permanent problem with really no solutions.

9:23And so much has happened in Syria in the last year, hasn't it? Can you just remind us who we're talking about when we say the Syrian government? So the Syrian government came into power on December of 2024. And they were a collection of rebel groups that pushed former Syrian President Shah al-Assad out of power and took the reins of power. And since then, they've turned from a transitional government into the new government of Syria. And it's a government that has an Islamist leaning, but is quite popular within the country. Right. So this new Syrian government now want control of the country, but the Kurdish-led forces, the Syrian Democratic Forces, still control the Northeast.

10:04So what's the relationship like between these two ruling groups? It's quite a complicated one because they want to unify the country. And a big obstacle to that has been the Syrian Democratic Forces. You know, they're a non-state militia. They control a third of the country. They control the biggest oil fields and lots of other infrastructure. And the Syrian Democratic Forces was a U.S.-backed force, and they have U.S. military bases in their territory. So it wasn't clear at first if the U.S. would allow the Syrian government to take the parts of the country that the Kurds control. But it seemed with time the new Syrian government won the trust of not only the U.S.

10:42government, but most importantly, U.S. President Donald Trump, who called Syria's new president a strong, handsome guy in a very Trumpian way. He's working very hard, the president of Syria is working very, very hard, strong guy, tough guy, pretty rough resume. But you're not going to put a choir boy in there and, you know, get the job done. And so the U.S. mediated talks between them. They came to an agreement to integrate the Kurds into the state. And they had this agreement that if they didn't integrate with the new Syrian state by the end of the year, that there would be some sort of conflict.

11:17and they let the deadline pass. And now we're seeing that conflict in front of us. You know, as someone who's been reporting on Syria for a while, it's so surprising just to see this happen because what was unclear is what exactly the Kurds were thinking. Yeah, and it didn't end well for them, did it? In less than a week, the Syrian government pushed forward from Aleppo into territory controlled by the Kurds. Yeah, so within hours, the Kurds, who once controlled a quarter of the country, all of a sudden lost almost half their territory and were pushed just back into Kurdish majority areas. One surprising thing that happened here is just how quickly the Kurds melted away.

11:58They said for years that they have 100 ,000 fighters, and yet they lost hundreds of kilometers of territory in hours.

12:14and well in seizing all of this territory the syrian government also took control of these poison chalices of the camps and prisons and when we spoke to you for an episode in 2025 in march there were already concerns about the security of these camps and and the prisons where the IS fighters were being held. This was right after the fall of Bashar al-Assad, and it was all really, really tense. Kurdish prison guards spoke of their fears to you that IS prisoners would escape then, that unless the West stepped up their support, they wouldn't be able to maintain full control of these facilities. And I think, remember, you were asked not to even mention the fall of Assad to any of the prisoners in case that sparked trouble.

12:55What's the situation now? You know, I think it's too early to tell. Even when I was at Al-Hol on Wednesday, you know, security forces that I spoke to there, Syrian government security forces also expressed fears that unless they were given help, that people could escape from the camp. And while I was there in front of us, there were holes in the fence that had appeared overnight. And women and children were constantly trying to run away and escape in front of us. Residents of the camp cut the fence. There's lots of panels like this where people can just freely leave. And this is new. Before it was highly secure.

13:31But in the last 48 hours, the whole camp has become porous. And you saw these new prison guards looking at the enormity of the task in front of them. And most of them hadn't slept for 24 or 48 hours and were still on duty. And you saw how overwhelmed they look with all of it. I wouldn't want to have to deal with that. But we do know a couple of things. The first is that the Syrian government is going to try to transfer out most of the Syrians and Iraqis who don't have evidence against them from the camps. They're going to try to release the Syrians back to their home villages if they don't have any serious evidence against them.

14:08And the Iraqi government said that they'll take back most of their citizens. But then what remains as a sticking point is the foreigners, because you need these countries where these people are coming from, whether it be Central Asian countries or France or the UK or the US, you need them to take them back. And that's not going to change whether that's the Kurds or the Syrian government. And so, you know, one thing we saw in the chaos of changing territory and the handover of the prisons from the Kurds to Damascus was that there were 120 suspected ISIS fighters that escaped from Al-Chaddadi prison.

14:45And the Syrian government said they managed to get back 81 of them, but some are still at large. And it's unclear who let them out, whether it was the Kurds, whether it was tribal fighters that exploited the chaos to let them out, or whether, you know, it was the Syrian government. But it's this chaos that people are afraid will let ISIS exploit the security vacuum and reconstitute itself. And I mean, you talk about the chaos of these places. I mean, they've often been called these hotbeds of extremism, kind of breeding grounds for future IS fighters and radicalization points. And it sounds very much like the conditions you described inside would maybe encourage that.

15:23Do you think that that's an accurate description of the security risk that these camps and prisons still pose? Absolutely. You know, on Wednesday, we went to the Foreigners Annex of El Hol, which has been described as the most radical of the ISIS detention facilities. And speaking to these kids and the small interactions we had with them, I mean, I watched as they asked Syrian government fighters, you know, do you drink? Do you smoke? and one of them, they pointed to an ammo pouch on the belt of one of the security guards. He said, are those cigarettes? And he goes, oh, do you smoke? And he said, sometimes.

15:57And the kids started yelling at him. He said, you know, we just got rid of the Kurds and you come here and you're not even a Muslim yourself because in their interpretation of Islam, smoking is not allowed. And for context, you know, these security officers, many of them belong to Harir al-Sham, which is a former Islamist rebel group that was considered a U.S. terrorist group for years. and they're being yelled at by these kids saying that they're apostates. Ben, it's quite a shame because humanitarians for years have been warning that if you keep these kids in such conditions, it's going to lead to a new generation of radicalized children.

16:32And you can clearly see that when you're there. Obviously, it's on everyone. And obviously, you know, these are minors and they don't bear the sins of their parents. But that sort of thinking in those camps has trickled into their minds. Are all of the camps and prisons in the northeast of Syria now under government control? No, there's still some prisons, Panorama Prison, the prison we visited last year that contains about, I think it's 5 ,000 male ISIS fighters. Those are still under the control of the Kurdish-led forces. El Roj camp, where foreign women, including Shimemi Begum, are kept still under the control of the Kurds.

17:09And, you know, you can tell that the prospect of these falling into Damascus's hands and the chaos that might ensue in the meantime is something that the U.S. and other countries are worried about. I mean, you know, on Wednesday, we saw that the U.S. announced that they'll be transferring about 7 ,000 suspected ISIS fighters and members to Iraq very quickly, maybe in anticipation of another offensive. I was talking to somebody who has contact with the women in a Roj camp, for example, and they said that Kurdish forces are putting sandbags around the camp. The situation there is very tense. You know, there are snipers around and Kurdish-led forces told all the women to stay in their tents.

17:46And I think everyone is eager to see these camps stay secure and make sure nobody escapes. You know, for those women and children in those camps, they're also very frightened about what's going to come next. Remember, these are people that have yet to see a trial and have been detained for, you know, up to eight years. And it's a strange situation, isn't it? Because you mentioned, obviously, that the US used the Kurds to help defeat ISIS. And then they left these camps and the prisons under the control of the Kurds and have been helping secure them in the meantime. But they also are now in support of the government forces that have swept in and taken this territory in the last week.

18:22So what role is the US playing in all of this at the moment? Yeah, it's confusing. The US has backed this Kurdish project for 10 years in northeast Syria, and oftentimes at the displeasure of regional allies like Turkey. So I think there's a big sense of disappointment among the Kurdish forces. And, you know, I attended a press conference with one of the senior leaders of the Kurdish forces, Ilham Ahmed, on Tuesday. And she was telling us that she hadn't heard from the US that they'd been contacting the coalition asking for help, but that they weren't answering. So there is a sort of a profound sense of betrayal among the Kurds in northeast Syria from the U.S.

19:00And the U.S. will tell them that, you know, we never said that this was anything more than a beneficial relationship. We helped get rid of ISIS in your territory and you helped keep the world safe. But I think what we're seeing is part of a broader pattern in the region of a shift away from non-state groups to support of, you know, states in the region. You know, there's a statement from the U.S. envoy to Syria on Tuesday where he said it very plainly. He said, this is a good opportunity for the Kurds to integrate with Damascus. We had a partnership with you when we were fighting ISIS, but now there's a state there and you need to become a part of the state.

19:31So the direction of the wind blowing is quite clear. I was talking to the, I guess now former head of a whole camp yesterday, and she was saying that she wants to seek asylum in Europe. She had worked with the U.S. forces and international organizations in the camp for years, and then all of a sudden all of her work blew up in her face in a matter of hours, and she had to leave. Now she's quite afraid. She's afraid of the Syrian government forces, and she's afraid of the suspected members of ISIS in the camp that know her quite well. And she's afraid that if they come out, that she could be in danger.

20:05So, you know, it's a very tough situation. And to a lot of Kurds, they feel like the entire world turned their back on them and that they shouldered a burden that the world didn't want to deal with. Coming up Will the Syrian government be able to keep control of the camps and the IS fighters inside them?

20:38And also it's a hugely onerous task, isn't it, now for the Syrian government to be in control of these camps and to maintain security, especially if they want to keep the U.S. on side, and especially with everything else they're having to deal with and rebuilding the country. You know, I think there's a lot of good intentions on their side. They've said that they want to keep it safe. They want to make a good impression on the U.S. and the rest of the world. And, you know, the Syrian government, for years, when they were even a rebel group, they were fighting ISIS. They were a rival of theirs.

21:08but they don't have the experience in maintaining these camps. It's not only security issues, it's a humanitarian issue. I mean, most of these people are women and children. And I was speaking to somebody who met with the Syrian Ministry of Interior and the Foreign Ministry two weeks ago, and she said that the types of questions they were asking betrayed a deep lack of knowledge. I also know that there is sort of a sympathy among the former rebel fighters that make up the security forces in the government now. For years, the idea of a hole where it's essentially a detention camp with thousands of people in it had been seen as a great injustice.

21:45And people who were living in Idlib, which the rebels controlled at that point, you know, it was on their minds as this sort of giant prison camp where women and children are stuck maroon there with no access to justice. and security forces I was speaking to yesterday, you know, while they were quite frustrated chasing after these people trying to escape, you know, one guy told me, he said, I get it. If I had been stuck in this place for eight years, I would also be trying to run right now. And there's no sense yet, I guess, of how the Syrian government might run the camps differently than the Kurds?