Donald Trump’s Epstein problem

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:07Today, Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and the one conspiracy theory the president may regret.

0:20Bluster. Denial. Distraction. The way in which Donald Trump deals with stories he doesn't like has become an art form over the last decade. Any criticism of him is fake news. When it comes to peddling in conspiracy theories, well, he's a master. But with Jeffrey Epstein, a convicted child sex offender who died in prison in 2019, Trump seems to be squirming. But I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. The furore around the so-called Epstein files is one that he helped ignite. Now things have gotten uncomfortable and Trump wants to shut this story down.

1:01David Smith:We start tonight with the scandal consuming the Trump White House as MAGA leaders, top Democrats and non-partisan journalists demand answers about the Epstein files. Republicans are rattled. His hardcore supporters, the MAGA massive, are turning against him. It seems like you think your base is stupid. That's how I feel. I feel like Trump thinks his base is stupid. We're getting flooded with thousands, hundreds of thousands of comments that are very unhappy about this. MAGA hats are off. America First hats are on. On Wednesday, Congress went into its summer recess a day early, seemingly to avoid a vote on whether the FBI should publicly release all of its files on Jeffrey Epstein.

1:47From The Guardian, I'm Nosheen Iqbal. Today in focus, has Trump lost MAGA over Epstein?

1:59David Smith, you're the Guardian's Washington Bureau Chief, and you've been writing about a story that just won't go away. Jeffrey Epstein. Now, before we get into what's been happening this week, can you remind our listeners of who he was? Jeffrey Epstein was born in New York. He first became a schoolteacher. That did not end well. He went into the world of finance, Wall Street trading and so on. And a master, an absolute fortune became a wealthy financier, a multimillionaire. Yeah, Jeffrey Epstein was a party animal in 1990s New York, a friend of the rich and famous. Many of them flew on his private jet to an island that would become notorious as a place effectively of sex slavery.

2:47He was involved in trafficking young women and children to the Virgin Islands for a very long period of time through our airport, through his private jet, would then transport them over to Little St. James. And that's where he has his complex where he lives, which is his official residence as well. Well, around 2008, Jeffrey Epstein actually pleaded guilty to state charges following a federal investigation involving at least 40 teenage girls. He served 13 months in jail at that time. But then in 2019, he was arrested once more in New York and charged with trafficking dozens of teenage girls and engaging in sex acts with them in exchange for money.

3:35His mansion on East 71st Street was raided early Sunday morning as agents hauled out multiple bags of evidence from disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. We're told the 66-year-old registered sex offender had just landed at Teterboro Airport on Saturday, returning home from France when he was arrested. While Epstein was awaiting trial, he was found dead in his prison cell after hanging himself, according to the authorities. Breaking news right now, disgrace financier Jeffrey Epstein has taken his own life while he was behind bars here in New York City. But even at that time, sceptics were pointing out suspicious circumstances.

4:16It appeared the security cameras around his cell were malfunctioning on the night he died and there were other irregularities. We'll come back to the conspiracy theories around that because they are central to this story. In the meantime, can you tell me what we know about Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Donald Trump? They were close. It was a friendship that lasted a good 15 years. They would go to parties together. Flight logs showed that Trump flew on Epstein's private jet in interviews. Donald Trump would talk about this friendship. For example, in 2002, he told New York Magazine that Epstein is, quote, a terrific guy.

4:53He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. Trump and Epstein spent time together in both New York and Florida. And, you know, for example, we've been seeing video from a party at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in 1992, where they're deep in conversation watching young women dance.

5:19David Smith:NBC News archival video from 1992 shows the president with Epstein at a Mar-a-Lago party, alongside cheerleaders for the Buffalo Bills and the Miami Dolphins. Donald! Donald! Donald! Mr Trump greeting guests, including Epstein. But the friendship did eventually fall apart, not for the first time in Trump's career, in a row over a property deal. And Trump somewhat cut Epstein dead after that. And so there was years of silence and enmity. So it's a friendship that turns sour. But what did Trump have to say when Epstein died in prison in 2019 while he was waiting for his trial? Well, Donald Trump's first response was to retweet a post from a right-wing comedian called Terrence Williams, which suggested that former President Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary were somehow involved in Epstein's death.

6:17Trump was questioned about this and, of course, just doubled down on it and said, you know, the question you have to ask is, did Bill Clinton go to the island? Because Epstein had an island that was not a good place, as I understand it. So even at that stage, Donald Trump was pushing conspiracy theories about the death of Jeffrey Epstein, that this might be something other than suicide. And the conspiracy theory being that because Epstein was so well connected to rich, famous people and had done an awful lot of criminal things, there was this idea that maybe he knew about the crimes of others that he'd partied with for over two decades.

6:54Basically, people didn't want to believe that he killed himself because as the theory goes, wealthy, powerful people would want that covered up. As soon as August 2019, you had the phrase Epstein didn't kill himself spreading fast on the internet. It was pushed by Republican members of Congress. influential podcasters such as Joe Rogan. It really started to take hold. Have you paid attention to this Jeffrey Epstein stuff? Yeah, a little bit. What do you think is going on? I think that too many very powerful people, he had stuff on too many very powerful people. Likely, right? Probably. Ghislaine Maxwell, who was the ex-partner of Epstein, a longtime confidant, was convicted of sex trafficking in 2021.

7:46that certainly poured more fuel on all the interest in this case and the various theories. Of course, Trump was running for president in 2024. And around that time, a trove of court documents identifying associates of Epstein were unsealed. That was a part of a lawsuit against Ghislaine Maxwell from one of Epstein's victims. and among those named in the documents were Bill Clinton, Michael Jackson, David Copperfield and Trump himself, although none of them was accused of wrongdoing.

8:32It's obviously a story with a lot of salacious detail, but on Trump's election campaign trail there were a lot of other things that he could have talked about and yet this story, The one of the so-called Epstein files, which is all the documents, photos, all that stuff that the authorities have on Epstein that they've raided from his home over the years, including this idea of a client list, you know, of all the contacts that Epstein kept. It keeps coming up. Trump keeps getting asked about it. David, why was it such an issue and what did he say? I think there are two factors here. One is just on the surface that Trump was asked several times about declassifying various files from 9-11 to the assassination of John F.

9:17Kennedy to Epstein. And he indicated that he would declassify them. Although in one interview, he initially said yes and then seemed to back away from that a little, which some took as evidence he's got something to hide.

9:31David Smith:If you were president, would you declassify, you can answer yes or no to this. Would you declassify the 9-11 files? Yeah. Would you declassify JFK files? Yeah. I did. I did a lot of it. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah. Yeah, I would. All right. I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because it's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. But I think I would or at least. Do you think that would restore trust? Help restore trust. I don't know about Epstein so much as I do the others.

10:05But nevertheless, the general view was he will do this. And that was reinforced by Dan Bongino, a Trump supporter, a big podcaster who was obsessed with this, who promised they'd be released. And he ended up as deputy director of the FBI, which certainly raised expectations. But I think more fundamentally what's going on here is that Donald Trump's Make America Great Again movement is really built on conspiracy theories. It's foundational. And Trump has encouraged that with birtherism around Barack Obama, around the January 6th insurrection, idea of a stolen election, various other things. And central to that is the idea of a deep state that is keeping secrets that protecting the rich and powerful.

10:55So a big piece of this idea that Trump is going to drain the swamp and demolish the deep state was that he would release the Epstein files and the wealthy and privileged people would no longer be able to hide. Trump's message is that he is an unlikely working class hero, a champion of the forgotten left behind people who have had society rigged against them by the wealthy elites and the likes of Bill and Hillary Clinton. So any kind of conspiracy theory, including Epstein, that feeds into that was always going to be very powerful. And I think Epstein and particularly QAnon really gave Trump and his supporters license to see the political opposition, the Democrats, not just as opponents who disagree on policy, but as genuinely inherently evil.

11:48They are part of some cabal of paedophiles. Therefore, anything is justified. We must win at all costs because this is a fundamental, almost biblical struggle between good and evil. So I think that was one of the motives for really fanning these flames.

12:13OK, so David, what has Trump actually done since he's returned to the White House? Well, the administration put itself in trouble at first because Pam Bondi, the very loyal attorney general of Donald Trump, said in an interview on Fox News that the Epstein client list is sitting on her desk right now to review. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the president from all of these agencies.

12:59So have you seen anything there? You said, oh, my gosh. Not yet. OK, well, we'll check back with you. So that raised expectations. In February this year, we did have the release of some files. And again, it's a sign of the times those were distributed to conservative influencers. And there were photos of them proudly posing outside the Justice Department, clutching these files, very excited, as if all was going to be revealed. And it was a total bomb. There was just nothing exciting at all in these papers. It was stuff that everyone knew already. So that was a disappointment. And that seemed to be it.

13:45We were getting no real progress or breakthrough until the whole thing kicked off again when Trump had his notorious falling out with billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk, who was his ally for a while. And of course, Musk used his own ex-social media platform to say, time to drop the really big bomb. Real Donald Trump is in the Epstein files. That is why they have not been made public. And Musk later deleted that tweet, but it once again triggered this sound and fury. within the Trump base, the Make America Great Again followers, I think that did help ignite further demands, resentment, anger, curiosity, where are these files?

14:35And that led to earlier this month, the Justice Department issuing this memo announcing that no, in fact, Epstein did not keep a client list. And the client list is something that, you know, people have been obsessed with. Caroline, the DOJ and FBI have now concluded there was no Jeffrey Epstein client list. What do you tell MAGA supporters who say they want anyone involved in Jeffrey Epstein's alleged crimes to be held accountable?

15:00David Smith:This administration wants anyone who has ever committed a crime to be held accountable. And I would argue this administration has done more to lock up bad guys than certainly the previous administration. I was going to say that's central to what everyone's been saying about Epstein and this information that he had on the wealthy and the powerful. That's right. It has that simple appeal, doesn't it? Just that notion of there's going to be one piece of paper where you can see clearly this list of the rich and famous. And people have made allegations without evidence that it's going to be everyone from Bill Clinton to Bill Gates to who knows.

15:37And in addition to that, let's remember the other part of this conspiracy theory is Epstein's death. And again, earlier this month, the Justice Department said, well, here's an 11-hour video of the scene outside Epstein's prison cell before and after his death, showing that no one entered or left the room. However, a minute of footage is actually missing from that video. So of course, that backfired spectacularly. It actually strengthened and the conspiracy theories rather than erasing them. So David, as you said, despite so much going on politically, domestically and internationally, not least including a war with Iran very briefly, what seems to have really raised the ire of MAGA supporters and Trump's inner circle is this, is the Epstein files.

16:28Can you tell me a bit more about their criticism and what's been levied at Trump? This is so foundational to what MAGA is. And now those people, at least some of them, say they feel betrayed. One caller to a conservative radio host said, this is the ultimate betrayal. They were counting on Trump to be the hammer of the deep state to finally uncover these wealthy, influential people who are part of this cabal. and instead Trump appears to have been pro-opted and is now doing their bidding. I feel really betrayed and I feel really, really angry. People like me will not stop talking about this. I feel so betrayed and so angry.

17:11This is not what I voted for. I guess some are asking, well, does it mean he himself is in the files and is covering that up? And so you've seen a rebellion from radio hosts, podcasters, influencers online. The whole thing that this tape shows he didn't kill himself is like a joke. But worse than that, it's a joke that we all get. Like, they're not fooling anybody. So I feel like we're at a dangerous point now. So now by coming in and being part of the cover-up, the Trump administration has become part of it. I mean, it's just you cannot see it any other way. I mean, it's important to sort of one thing, but I wonder if there's been any very vocal critics within his own party.

17:53It was certainly a surprise when House Speaker Mike Johnson, who again is ferociously pro-Trump, he said that these files should be released, although later he did some work to patch things up and make clear he's still very much on Trump's side. There have been about half a dozen, maybe a few more other Republicans also backing that. Certainly criticism of the failure to release the files by Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia. She can be a maverick at times. There's another interesting congressman, Thomas Massey. He is certainly calling for the files to be released. And how has Trump himself been responding?

18:38Donald Trump has really brought a scattergun to this whole issue. A variety of approaches, certainly trying to play down the significance of the Epstein files, sometimes describing them as boring, sometimes saying this is all old news and happened a long time ago. I don't understand why it keeps going. I think really only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like that going. Trump is also calling the Epstein saga a hoax. Right. We've also just in the last couple of days had the release of files about the assassination of Martin Luther King. Again, another giant distraction, and at least one King family member noted that and said, OK, now release the Epstein files.

19:29So, you know, chucking lots of files into the public domain might not be a great strategy because it just reminds people of the files that are still lurking in the FBI building somewhere.

19:49You mentioned he is a master of dictating news cycles, except when it came this month earlier to a Wall Street Journal report which alleged that Donald Trump had contributed a letter to an album of letters for Jeffrey Epstein for his 50th birthday. It was explosive. And I wonder if you can tell me more about what was inside it and what it revealed. So Donald Trump made this contribution reportedly to a birthday album that had been compiled by Ghislaine Maxwell for Epstein. The Wall Street Journal described a depiction of a naked woman on it. It said, a pair of small arcs denotes the woman's breasts, and Trump's signature, a squiggly Donald, is written below her waist, mimicking pubic hair.

20:41And this letter allegedly included the message, happy birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret, close quote. So that was supposedly sent by Trump to Epstein. Of course, Trump has vehemently denied that and claimed it's not his style. It's not his the way he writes. The letter bearing Trump's name, which was reviewed by the journal, is body like others in the album. It contains several lines of typewritten text framed by the outline of a naked woman, which appears to be hand drawn with a heavy marker. Inside the outline of the naked woman was a typewritten note styled as an imaginary conversation between Trump and Epstein written in the third person.

21:27Trump, a pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday. And may every day be another wonderful secret. So as a result of that allegation, Trump has threatened to sue The Wall Street Journal for a mind boggling$10 billion. It's a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch, who arguably more than any other media proprietor has done more to support and make Trump's political career. I mean, without Fox News, for instance, another Murdoch property, where would Trump be? David, what do you make of that lawsuit? Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch have had a checkered relationship over the years. I think it's definitely a friendship of convenience.

22:08Certainly there are books and media reports that suggest privately Murdoch cannot stand Trump, but makes nice with him when it suits him. There is, among others, the possibility here that Rupert Murdoch, given his background and his history, still likes a good story when he sees it. And that still wins out over political concerns sometimes. times. It's, again, historic in that it's certainly the first time Trump actually as president has launched a legal action against a media entity. Yeah, if you just step back and see how the White House has also retaliated by barring the Wall Street Journal from a presidential press pool that was supposed to be following Trump to the UK.

22:56It's another bad day for freedom of speech in America. And once again, Trump is trying to bully and intimidate journalists who criticise him. But the Wall Street Journal was clearly undeterred. Yesterday afternoon, it had this even more explosive report saying that in May, Justice Department officials told Trump that they reviewed the Epstein files and his name came up multiple times. Now, obviously, your name coming up doesn't indicate any wrongdoing and there are hundreds of names involved. But if true, it would obviously be embarrassing and might seem one of the reasons why his administration hasn't released the files.

23:40Trump, of course, called it all fake news. Coming up, will Trump be able to escape his ties to Epstein?

23:58David, Trump has risen in politics off the back of conspiracy theories. He claimed that Barack Obama wasn't a US citizen. He railed against the deep state when he lost the 2020 election. And of course, he has dabbled in Epstein conspiracies when he thought it would help him. Is this the moment that it all comes back to bite him? There are many Trump critics who really hope so and are relishing this and seeing Trump struggle. however after years of watching this we also know Trump is a great escape artist and one thing he learned from reality television is that a story lingers you know a couple of weeks at most and then everyone tends to forget and move on and for the most part in the Trump era it's much faster than that.

24:48Certainly, it could hurt Republicans in next year's midterms, because, you know, these dedicated MAGA voters, if they're hacked off over Epstein, maybe they just stay at home, maybe they don't bother turning out to vote. And in swing districts, just a few percentage points could make all the difference. So yeah, this certainly could have political consequences. But right now, you know, this is not the end of Donald Trump. David, Donald Trump has had absolutely no shortage of scandal. He's been impeached twice. He's been indicted multiple times. Dozens of women have accused him of sexual misconduct.

25:25He's been found liable for sexually assaulting E. Jean Carroll in a civil case. And yet none of that seems to have stuck to him or ostensibly damaged his reputation. why is it do you think that the Epstein files could potentially be his undoing? I think there are two reasons and authors commentators others I've talked to raise these points one is that the Epstein case deals with paedophilia and this idea that children were abused and exploited. It doesn't matter who you are, even if you're Donald Trump, that has a visceral effect that none of these other allegations quite do. And then secondly, I think many of the other scandals attached to Trump have been perceived at least as coming from external foes, such as the Democratic Party, or the media, or lawyers, therefore, very easy for Trump and his allies and right wing media to demonize and weaponize and turn it into a binary.