Drill Andy drill? Burnham’s North Sea dilemma

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:08Helena Horton:Today, how green is Andy Burnham?

0:20Helena Horton:Where were you when the government sent out that emergency alert on Friday night, warning us all of the very high risk of wildfires? Thankfully, I wasn't on live TV. Back on the famous green sofa to share her memories of working alongside Adrian Charles. Plus, we've got an incredible... Couldn't make that up, could you? I think it's a fire alarm. We've got some form of fire alarm. Or at a music festival where everything suddenly felt very end of days. I was having a barbecue in the back garden. Not a disposable one, mind. Andy Burnham had banned those from sale earlier in the day. He scared the life out of me.

0:52Because I thought that the emergency alert system was reserved for something huge, like a nuclear attack. Well, many people would say that the alert was prompted by something potentially apocalyptic.

1:08And it seemed the new Prime Minister thought so too. Farmers are watching crops fail and firefighters have faced hundreds of wildfires in a matter of weeks. This is what climate change looks like here and now. But for many of Andy Burnham's critics, and even his supporters, the acknowledgement came too late and the barbecue ban amounted to too little. They want him to take much more meaningful action and to put more space between labour and reform, whose deputy leader Richard Tice this week urged us all to stop whinging about the weather and pour ourselves a glass of English wine instead. I think when it's a bit warm, let's enjoy it.

1:42And if it means that English wine and sparkling wine gets better and better, fantastic. That means we can take on the French, fantastic. Let's celebrate some of these things.

1:57Soon, in what will be the first test of Burnham's green credentials, he will have to decide whether to allow more drilling for oil and gas in the North Sea. Some people seem very confident that it's going to happen. We had a good conversation. One of the things he is going to do, I think he's going to open up the North Sea. That'll make UK pretty rich, I'll tell you. The Prime Minister's allies describe his approach as net zero pragmatism. But is that just a euphemism for avoiding tough decisions while the planet burns?

2:32Helena Horton:From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Today in Focus, will Andy Burnham drill baby drill?

2:45Helena Horton:Helena Horton, welcome back to Today in Focus. Hi. Great to have you back. So you are a reporter at The Guardian, but you spent years on the environment beat. So I reckon all this chat about drilling in the North Sea must feel like Groundhog Day for you. And we're talking specifically about two oil and gas projects in the North Sea, Rosebank and Jackdaw. Tell me about them and how long back does all of this go? So the reason why we're talking about it now is because a consultation closed on Monday into a giant oil field named Rosebank and a giant gas field named Jackdaw. Rosebank is owned by Equinor and Jack Dorr is mostly owned by Shell.

3:22And these are two fossil fuel fields that are currently at the last stage of the process for when they start drilling, which is the consent stage. And now it's up to the Secretary of State for Energy and ultimately the Prime Minister to

3:36Helena Horton:decide whether or not we can drill them. And when these two projects in the North Sea were approved by various conservative governments, I think Jack Dorr in 2022 by Boris Johnson and then Rosebank, the next year by Rishi Sunak. And if they were both approved years ago, why has it come back to Burnham now to give the final consent? It's gone back to really last year, which is when a new Supreme Court ruling came out called the Finch ruling. But the environmental impact assessment should cover not only direct effects of the project, but also, quote, any indirect, secondary, cumulative, transboundary, short-term, medium-term...

4:13That means oil and gas fields and all fossil fuel. companies have to give environmental justification for what is called scope three emissions. And that sounds very technical, but previously they only had to account for the carbon emissions from actually building the oil and gas field. But now they have to account for the carbon emissions that are generated by actually burning the fuel. Okay, so that Supreme Court ruling delayed drilling, kind of paused it essentially. And the timing of all of that meant, I guess, that it became Labour's problem. Yeah, so the court case changed things and it was quite politically useful for Labour when that came in because at the time they were saying that they didn't want to drill anymore.

4:51Well, Ed Miliband didn't want to, but since then it's become a bit more complicated with the energy crisis and all of that. Okay, so Andy Burnham's got this big decision looming, but just so that I'm absolutely clear about this, does that Supreme Court ruling that you've told us about mean that the government might ultimately decide that the environmental destruction associated with these two wells is just too great to allow drilling or does it just essentially leave it up to their discretion it's up to their discretion so basically the ruling said they have to account for the emissions in their application which means they have to say okay it is going to generate these emissions but xyz and then it's up to the secretary of state to read that and say um well actually i don't think that's true or okay fine you've admitted it and you're putting x mitigations in place so you can go ahead.

5:38And really, yeah, it's up to the Secretary of State.

5:40Helena Horton:Okay. And you said that the consultation closed this week. And does that mean that the two companies involved, Equinor, the Norwegian company and Shell, does that mean that they have published what they think will be the environmental cost of these wells? Yeah, they've sent it into government. And I think Rosebank is online somewhere. Rosebank over its lifetime, which is a few decades, will emit the same as 70 % of the whole country's carbon emissions in one year. So it's quite a lot. It's not enough to make a gigantic difference to global emissions, quite frankly, but it is a lot and significant enough that the Climate Change Committee said that approving new oil and gas fields at all would tip us over the edge when it comes to meeting our climate commitments.

6:27Helena Horton:Okay. And I think Labour was elected on a manifesto in 2024, which promised no new drilling. Does that give them enough wriggle room to approve this if they want to, because it's not quite classed as new because they're already so far developed. Yes. So they said no new licences. And this is something that the government will jump on your neck if you say that they're approving licences to drill Rosebank and Jackdaw. So the licences were already approved by, as you said, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak respectively. So the question is, would you prefer to have energy from here at home or be reliant on foreign dictators?

6:58My view is simple. I think we should get it from here at home. that's good for Scottish jobs, it's good for the Scottish economy. At the time, Labour, particularly Ed Miliband, railed against it and called it climate vandalism. However, when the licence is approved, the final step before they can start drilling is consent. So it's not a new licence, it's a new consent. So it's based on this very technical reading of the manifesto pledge, which probably was written to give a bit of wriggle room just in case. But basically the consent is not when the Secretary of State goes, OK, now you can use the licence that we gave you.

7:30Helena Horton:Yeah. And let's talk about the arguments for and against these oil and gas fields. We need Labour to grow a backbone and say that they would not allow Rosebank to go ahead. They would revoke the licence because it's the right thing to do. And, you know, there are many people who argue that any drilling on these sites is morally indefensible. We're in the middle of the climate crisis and we've seen the effects of global heating so clearly this summer with the wildfires and the droughts. And earlier this week, more than 200 musicians wrote to Andy Burnham, urging him to reject these plans. But the oil and gas fields are gaining some support, aren't they, from some surprising quarters.

8:08But look, I have a different position perhaps than the one you expect me to have. There's a way that we can make sense of this North Sea puzzle. We can actually bring our bills down, which we can't at the moment. Yes, including Dale Vince, Labour donor. Yeah. And even Octopus Energy CEO Greg Jackson, who has been responsible for quite a lot of the renewable uptake. Like if you're on Octopus, most of your energy will come from renewables.

8:32Helena Horton:And what did you make of this intervention by Dale Vince, who is, of course, this quite eccentric eco-entrepreneur. He's a multimillionaire, sometime Labour donor. He owns the green energy company Ecotricity. We will use fossil fuels for a number of years to come. And it makes sense to make them if we can also save money here and create some jobs. I'm up for it. Well, it wasn't hugely surprising. I think he's trying to get some more influence within Andy Burnham's team and therefore he's going to go where the wind is blowing. And all of the indicators are that at least one of these are probably jacked or will get approved.

9:06But he's more concerned about the price of energy. So he's been asking for a long time for the electricity price to be decoupled from the gas price. So when the gas price is really high, even if there's loads of wind blowing, we still pay the same amount of electricity as we would for gas. He wants them to be decoupled so when there's lots of wind, we pay a huge amount less for electricity. And he's arguing that, OK, fine, we can license these new oil fields and gas fields. But if we do that, we need to look at how we pay for energy. OK, and in terms of the energy security argument, given that these wells are owned by two private companies, one of whom, Equinor, is the Norwegian state oil company, would they in practice have to give us British consumers cheaper energy?

9:48No we'd have to change the law and requisition the assets of yeah as you say global companies and sell them at a price that they don't want to sell which I mean some people might be in favour of that but it'd be quite like an extreme thing in terms of the global kind of capitalist economy that we're in to do and I don't know how many companies would want to invest in the UK if we'd say oh actually we can just take your company at any time and um you know requisition your assets and sell them at whatever price we like so the point is it's not who they're owned by yeah it's that any oil and gas is sold on international markets they're sold at a global price and the global price is set by the availability of oil and gas worldwide so it wouldn't make a difference to energy bills yeah i mean it might make a small difference to security of supply so that's that's a big issue.

10:35At the moment, we import 68 % of our gas. And most of that is from Norway, which is quite clean. And it's next door to us in the North Sea, as clean as oil and gas goes, obviously. But America is becoming more of a player in this. As you've heard me say many times, we have more liquid gold under our feet than any nation on earth. And by far, and now I fully authorise the most talented team ever assembled to go and get it. It's called Drill Baby Drill. And they obviously frack their gas, which is very, very environmentally damaging and releases a huge amount more emissions from the actual process of fracking than drilling in the North Seaward.

11:17And also it gets converted into LNG, which is like the liquid form of the gas, and then it has to get shipped over here. So it's really bad for the environment. So there is an argument that's made that if we produced more here, we'd be less reliant on the LNG from the US. Others argue that any oil and gas produced would be used anyway. So if we drill for more, then we're adding more to the global amount of oil and gas that's burnt.

11:43Helena Horton:And what do you make of the argument there's an element of hypocrisy here from people who oppose these oil and gas fields? Because if we're going to be importing oil and gas from elsewhere, you know, shouldn't we just do it in our own backyard instead? I mean, that is an argument that people make. Also the argument that we are supposed to be global leaders and we're going to go to COP in November, which is the big climate conference that all the countries in the world apparently, apart from Trump, are going to go to. If we're going to tell developing countries you're not allowed to make yourselves richer and more prosperous and happier by drilling for your fossil fuels to keep them in the ground, but then we are out consenting new oil and gas fields, it's not a very good look.

12:38Helena Horton:So it's clear then that Andy Burnham has got a lot to weigh up when he does eventually make this decision. And in terms of the bigger picture here for the UK, what do you think is actually at stake when it comes to this decision? It's about the global positioning of the UK on the world stage when it comes to climate commitments. It's setting the kind of direction of travel for the Burnham government. It could show the green companies around the world whether or not we're investable in terms of the green tech. But I do think it does pose a question for whether or not he's going to keep those voters who went to the Green Party under Starmer but came back to him because they think he's more left-wing than Keir Starmer, I suppose.

13:16Obviously, these people really care about the environment and will be furious if he consents these oil and gas fields. Yeah.

13:23Helena Horton:And one of the things people often say about Andy Burnham from his tenure in Greater Manchester is that he was very reluctant to do anything that was unpopular. Where are the British public these days when it comes to energy extraction and the climate crisis? 80 % of the public are worried about climate change, probably more than that after last week, particularly with the emergency alert and the wildfires. And 60 % support the net zero policy of the government. So quite a large amount of the public are pro-climate action. it's not hugely controversial in terms of like the general public opinion anymore i don't think to drill these that is partly because of the change in global events so prior to 2022 russian invasion of ukraine and prior to the iran war um early this year before the energy crisis basically we could be a bit more complacent about where our energy comes from and energy security but now we're seeing a global tightening of energy supply and that's causing people to be really concerned So we recently had an interconnector, which is a big cable connecting us to the continent, basically denied by the Scandinavians because they don't want us to be able to take their electricity.

14:35And in France, we are quite reliant on them because they have got quite a lot of nuclear power. In France, the national rally... So Le Pen's party, yeah. Le Pen's party have said that they don't want any more interconnectors with us because they want to keep their own energy sovereignty. Yeah, so basically the global landscapes changed and also the national landscapes changed because when people feel their bills are involved, which might be slightly incorrect, people do think that drilling from oil and gas will lower their energy bills just because it seems like it's logical. When people care about climate, when bills are involved, cost of living tends to go higher on their priorities than climate, which is understandable if you think about people struggling, trying to live and trying to get by.

15:13Helena Horton:But do you think that we're now at a place in Britain where there is a consensus that climate change is man-made? It's been quite interesting to watch the positioning of your former newspaper, if you don't mind me mentioning that, the Daily Telegraph where you used to work. You had columnists like Tim Stanley. I wrote an article in which I argued that climate change is happening, man is responsible. And I argued that conservatives ought to embrace what I regard simply as common sense and get on with it. And the article has been arguing quite vociferously in the page of the Telegraph that we can't have kind of bear our heads in the sand anymore about this stuff.

15:45There is a debate happening on the right, whether or not climate change is man-made, which is very tiring to look at. It's like reading articles about whether gravity is real. We all kind of accept that climate change is man-made. Tim Stanley has always been more moderate than some of the writers who have been saying that we should be enjoying our Mediterranean summer as the Mediterranean is up in flames and people have died. I think that there is a consensus among the general public that climate change is man-made. Obviously, we have reform politicians like Richard Tice seeming to question that.

16:19I think Nigel Farage has said in the past that it's a nonsense to call CA2 a pollutant because plants use it for photosynthesis or whatever.

16:28Helena Horton:And it makes his be a fizzy. I think I've heard that from him as well at some point, yeah. Yeah, but I don't think people listen to that. I think people think that's funny maybe, but I don't think they actually take that. They're not getting their science advice from those two. So I do think that most people accept the science that it is man-made.

16:52Helena Horton:And let's look a bit into Andy Burnham's past to try to discern how he might ultimately come down on this decision. Because he's not given a huge amount away so far. In the few interviews that he's given, the speeches that he's given, there was just one Instagram video that he made after visiting the scene of the fires in the Midlands last week where he said, you know, this is the result of climate change. We cannot accept this as the new normal. I'm here in the West Midlands where fires... If we look at his record in Greater Manchester when he was the mayor, is there anything that we can point to that gives us a hint as to just how green he actually is?

17:28So he did set a target for Greater Manchester to be net zero by 2038, which is some 12 years ahead of the rest of the country, which is, I suppose, quite ambitious. He did massively extend public transport, didn't he, and I believe his tram plan... It's going to reach Stockport when I live at some point. Yeah, and that actually does make a city greener if people can get around using public transport and also make lives better as well. I believe air quality, I mean, it's improved a little bit, but air quality is the metric where Manchester does score below other cities in the UK.

18:00Helena Horton:Yeah, and there are many people who would say that if Andy Burnham had brought in the clean air zone that he was supposed to bring in a couple of years ago that he spent£100 million on, that perhaps we would have cleaner air than we do now. But we've talked about that on previous episodes, so we won't go into it too much now. But I mean, I can tell you that environmental campaigners in Manchester often got really frustrated that Burnham, who was incredibly popular, who was sort of winning almost 70 % of the vote in these mayoral elections, was not willing to spend any of his immense political capital on green policies, despite this, you know, fairly noble goal of reaching net zero by 2038.

18:36Helena Horton:And if I look at the kind of things that Burnham actually does, I always think of it as like stealth eco-friendliness. like he will bring in policies but he won't sell them as something green so a bit like this week Angela Rayner the local government secretary was talking about relaxing planning permissions for housing built within walking distance of station and obviously if if if people can walk to the station they're less likely to have a car I just wonder how you would characterize his policies that he's come out with so far in terms of how concerned he is about net zero I completely agree with you on that like I think that if we'd had someone like Ed Miliband and potentially even Keir Starmer come out in front of the cameras after the wildfires last week that have said, it's the climate crisis.

19:15We have to act immediately and get our emissions down. He spoke more about the firefighters and the immediate on the ground response. And I think he did mention being concerned about climate change, but kind of as an offhand comment, he's talking more about the actual individual events. But also in terms of policy, we're talking a lot about Rosebank and Jackdaw. And they are totemic issues, like we're doing a podcast about it. But actually, what's more important is not just where electricity and gas comes from, it's what we use in our homes, in our cars. 78 % of our energy comes from oil and gas, which I think most people would be quite surprised by, particularly how many wind farms we've put up.

19:56And I think that we're talking about energy security. As Ed Miliband said, when he was climate secretary, It puts us at the mercy of international markets. It puts us at the mercy of people like Putin and despots and Trump as well, who we're buying a lot of our gas from now. We do have the technology there to create clean energy. We could actually build more nuclear power stations. Like the only country in Europe that has a decarbonized grid is France, and that's from nuclear. We could be pushing more towards heat pumps and towards EVs. This is the way the world is going in general. It's the way we should go much more quickly.

20:29So there's no point arguing about drilling if we're not going to start talking also about electrifying the country and moving away from oil and gas in general. And we're not doing that. We're being pathetically slow, actually, I think, at moving away from fossil fuels.