In short
Whether Vladimir Putin is losing control as Russia’s war in Ukraine drags on, focusing on Kremlin propaganda, Putin’s isolation, public mood, internet shutdowns, and fears of coup.
Guests/backgrounds
Pyotr Sauer, The Guardian’s Russian affairs reporter; grew up in Moscow, lived in Russia until the full-scale invasion, and remains in close contact with sources in Russia. Host: Helen Pidd.
Key claims
Kremlin’s “Putin in jeans” video tries to counter reports of paranoia and isolation; Putin’s approval is falling and Russians are increasingly tired of the war; internet blocking (Telegram and broader shutdowns) fuels anger and anxiety; Russia’s economy is slowing as war spending strains budgets; elites privately disapprove but fear retaliation.
Notable examples
Victoria Bonia’s April criticism from Monaco; Telegram blogger Ilya Remeslo calling Putin a war criminal before arrest/psychiatric detention; Victory Day parade scaled back (no tanks) amid drone threats; commander claims Russia captured Kupyansk despite it remaining Ukrainian; reported Western intelligence about a potential Shoigu coup is viewed as unlikely.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPutin's Public Image and Isolation
1:05 to 3:42
Discussion about a recent video of Putin and his increasingly rare public appearances.
“All episodes streaming June 21st on Paramount+.”
Introduction of Pyotr Sauer
3:42 to 3:59
Introduction of the guest, Pyotr Sauer, and his background in Russian affairs.
“Pyotr Sauer, welcome back to Today in Focus.”
Public Sentiment Towards the War
3:59 to 6:28
Exploration of the mood in Russia regarding the ongoing war and its impact on citizens.
“So you're actually talking to us today from Armenia, and we'll talk a little bit about why you're there later on.”
Casualties and Recruitment Challenges
6:28 to 8:12
Discussing the astonishing number of casualties and recruitment issues faced by Russia.
“So in sort of the countryside, the poor areas.”
Celebrity Voices Against Putin
8:12 to 9:14
Analysis of how some celebrities are speaking out against Putin's regime.
“and if you do, you'll be in jail the next day.”
Putin's Internet Control
9:14 to 10:34
Examination of Putin's crackdown on internet usage and its implications for Russians.
“There's this huge pro-war community online on Telegram, which is the Russian Facebook slash WhatsApp slash Twitter.”
The Broken Social Contract
10:34 to 14:00
Discussion on how the social contract between Putin and the Russian people has deteriorated.
“And it reflects both, obviously, Putin's time spent in bunkers away from the people, but also the fact that he's old.”
Victory Day and Its Implications
14:00 to 23:43
Explore how Victory Day celebrations reflect Russia's current state and Putin's power projection.
“You know, as an average Russian, you will be able to live the way you're used to.”
Advertisement for 'What A Day' Podcast
23:44 to 24:26
Discover the daily news podcast 'What A Day' hosted by Jane Coeston.
“Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch the full episodes on YouTube.”
Assessing Putin's Global Influence
24:27 to 28:00
An analysis of how Putin's global influence is waning amidst ongoing conflicts and political setbacks.
“Beyond Russia's borders, how are things looking for Putin?”
Show all 11 chapters
Discussion on Putin's Popularity Decline
28:00 to 28:34
Explore the factors contributing to Putin's decreasing popularity in Russia.
“So, you know, I think the West should get their hopes up that there's a coup happening at any moment.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Fiona Longmuir:This is The Guardian.
0:07Pjotr Sauer:Today, is Putin losing his grip on power?
0:16Pjotr Sauer:Today in Focus is supported by Paramount+. The Agency. All episode streaming June 21st on Paramount+. In the world of espionage, truth is a moving target, and every decision carries a dangerous consequence. This new mission explores what it means to live as a double agent. Twice the lies, twice the risk. The lines between ally and enemy blur like never before, and survival depends on trusting no one. Starring Michael Fassbender, Jeffrey Wright, Jodie Turner-Smith and Richard Gere. Don't miss The Agency. All episodes streaming June 21st on Paramount+.
1:26Fiona Longmuir:So last month, the Kremlin released this curious video of Vladimir Putin dressed casually in jeans and a jacket, walking with a bouquet of flowers in a hotel to meet his high school teacher.
1:40Pjotr Sauer:Pyotr Sauer is The Guardian's Russian affairs reporter. Decoding Kremlin propaganda is very much part of the job description.
1:49Fiona Longmuir:On his way to meeting his teacher, he also made chit-chat with a random passerby.
2:00Fiona Longmuir:Who later turned out to be someone who worked for the Russian security services.
2:06Pjotr Sauer:The video showed the Russian president driving himself to meet Vera Gurevich. She taught the young Putin at school number 193 in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg. She seemed delighted to see him planting kisses on his waxy cheeks before he whisked her off for dinner at the Kremlin.
2:24Fiona Longmuir:So we as journalists often don't know where Putin is at any moment of the time. He is extremely careful about revealing his location. We know that he has a number of offices that look identical to each other, which is meant to hide his location. Sometimes he says he's in the Kremlin, but in reality he's sort of in an office that resembles his Kremlin office, but somewhere else. And all of this is meant to prevent any possible attacks that he fears.
2:52Pjotr Sauer:As his war in Ukraine enters its fifth bloody year, Putin is seen increasingly rarely in public. What he thought would be a quick and easy conflict has proved anything but. Costing the lives of half a million Russians and hitting the Russian economy hard. That's why this public appearance was so noteworthy.
3:11Fiona Longmuir:The whole image was striking because it came amid growing reports that the Russian leader is isolated, that he's paranoid and that he might even be fearing a coup. By releasing this image, I think the Kremlin really tried to fight those reports and they tried to portray the Putin that many Russians have come to know over the last 26 years, a man who's comfortable with the public, who considers himself one of the people.
3:41Pjotr Sauer:But do the Russian people still see him that way?
3:47Pjotr Sauer:From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pidd. Today in Focus, cracks in the Kremlin.
3:58Pjotr Sauer:Pyotr Sauer, welcome back to Today in Focus. Great to see you.
4:01Fiona Longmuir:Great to be here.
4:02Pjotr Sauer:So you're actually talking to us today from Armenia, and we'll talk a little bit about why you're there later on. But you're our Russia affairs correspondent. You grew up in Moscow and you lived in Russia until Putin decided to launch his full scale invasion of Ukraine. And I know that you're still in very close contact with a lot of people in Russia. How are they feeling about their lives these days?
4:24Fiona Longmuir:So for the last few weeks, I've been gathering as much information as possible for several stories I wrote for The Guardian about the mood in Moscow and in Russia. and the picture I got was a country that is growing more and more tired of the war that has now entered its fifth year, both of the general population and as well as the elites.
4:46Pjotr Sauer:I don't know how reliable polling is in Russia, but has much research been done to try and take the temperature of the population?
4:54Fiona Longmuir:Yeah, of course, polling in another deeply authoritarian country should be taken with a grain of salt. But we've seen from a number of indicators that from the beginning of this year, really, Putin's ratings have fallen. His approval has fallen. One poll showed that more and more Russians could imagine themselves joining a political protest. Another poll showed that happiness index is lowest in 14 years. But I think polling is just one indicator that we as journalists use to measure the atmosphere in Moscow. And the others are the interviews, but also some of the outrage we've seen on social media.
5:35Pjotr Sauer:And how much of this outrage do you think is about the death toll in Ukraine? Last week, the head of GCHQ, a UK intelligence agency, said that 500 ,000 Russian soldiers had been killed since the conflict began in 2022. As we remain steadfast in our support for Ukraine, Putin is going backwards on the battlefield. with new intelligence showing that almost half a million Russian soldiers have been killed since the conflict began. How widely known is that in Russia itself?
6:13Fiona Longmuir:Yeah, these figures are astonishing, really. More Russians have died in this war than any other wars combined except the Second World War. Given these numbers, it's impossible for Russians to ignore this. But from the very start of the war, Russia has mobilized and recruited soldiers as much as possible away from Moscow and away from Petersburg. So in sort of the countryside, the poor areas. I did a story on a village far away in the north of Russia, northeast of Russia, where 30 percent of all male population went to fight and many died. So in a village like that, obviously the war is felt very hard.
6:55Pjotr Sauer:Yeah. And so when they hear Putin claiming that the war is going brilliantly, they have evidence to the contrary in terms of their sons who have not returned home.
7:04Fiona Longmuir:Yeah, well, we've seen that at the start of the war that I think because Russia thought that this would be a quick war, they were prepared for sacrifices. And a lot of these men who died were glorified in state press and media. and Russia made sure to take care of the families of the fallen. So they've given wives and children of men who died enormous amounts of money. These are figures that some of these men and their families have never seen before. So that helped to prevent some of the anger. But now it's going in the fifth year and Russia is struggling to recruit soldiers as much as they did at the beginning of the war.
7:47Fiona Longmuir:You know, we know that around 30 ,000 soldiers per month are killed or injured. And until now, Russia was able to recruit as many each month. But now we're seeing a turning point.
8:00Pjotr Sauer:Are we seeing now more Russians feeling emboldened to actually talk out publicly? Or are they just giving anonymous comments to pollsters when they ring up?
8:11Fiona Longmuir:Obviously, if you're an average Russian, you're not going to write on social media that you're against the war. and if you do, you'll be in jail the next day. But we've seen a shift among some celebrities, for example, on social media. There was this beauty blogger who's hugely popular with millions of followers called Victoria Bonia. She was a reality TV star, and she wrote this post in April. I do this from the people's faces.
8:39Pjotr Sauer:They didn't ask me about it. But inside, I feel that I need to record this video.
8:45Fiona Longmuir:Why? She said that the Russian president has lost touch with his population. She addressed Putin saying, you know, Russians are scared of you. And then she listed the list of grievances she had with what is going on in the country.
8:57Pjotr Sauer:And is she in a gulag now?
8:59Fiona Longmuir:No, she actually lives in Monaco. Okay. But I think even if she was in Russia, I don't think the Russian authorities would go after her because she's a massive personality. I think going after her would reveal some sort of panic in the Kremlin. Instead, the Kremlins tried to coerce her. But we've seen other instances. There's this huge pro-war community online on Telegram, which is the Russian Facebook slash WhatsApp slash Twitter. And on Telegram, we've seen pro-war bloggers who have been very loyal to the Kremlin. And we've seen that the taboo is breaking that you can't criticize Putin. And one of these bloggers, I spoke to him in March.
9:40Fiona Longmuir:His name was Ilya Remeslo. And he went as far as calling for Putin to be put on trial. And he called Putin a war criminal.
9:57Fiona Longmuir:The same day as I spoke to him, he was arrested. He was put into a psych ward. He's since come out of the psych ward and he's toned down his criticism.
10:17Pjotr Sauer:Tell us about this nickname that has started to circulate about Putin.
10:23Fiona Longmuir:This nickname has already been around for a while, but it's now sort of growing in popularity, which is Dezbunkere, which means the grandfather in a bunker. And it reflects both, obviously, Putin's time spent in bunkers away from the people, but also the fact that he's old. You know, Putin is 73, has ruled this country for 26 years. And this nickname has specifically grown bigger because of Putin's new initiative to block the Internet as much as possible. Putin himself famously doesn't use the Internet. He doesn't have social media, unlike Trump or any Western official, really. He doesn't use a mobile phone.
11:04Fiona Longmuir:So he doesn't really understand what the Internet means for millions of Russians. And a massive part of the recent outrage is the blocking of the Internet, which started at the start of the war, but has intensified in recent months.
11:21Pjotr Sauer:And what's the sort of official justification for blocking the Internet?
11:25Fiona Longmuir:So to give you some context, Russia, shortly after the full-scale invasion of 2022, Russia already blocked many of the popular Western apps like Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. But Russians could live with it because they used VPNs to circumvent the blocking. And they used their alternatives like Telegram and Kontaktya. But in recent months, Russia started blocking Telegram, which every Russian I know uses for daily communication. And more recently, we've seen the government completely blocking the Internet. So if you're someone in Moscow, you wouldn't be able to order a taxi, order food, pay for services.
12:08Fiona Longmuir:And that led to complete shutdowns of these mega cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg, where 2 million people work as food delivery guys, taxi drivers. And the official reasoning behind this is that Russia says that it helps prevent Ukrainian drone attacks. Experts and critics don't really buy it. Ukraine has been able to continue their drone attacks. Another reason is that the Russian security services, they fear Ukrainian partisan attacks on Russian generals, on high officials. And many of these attacks are coordinated via Telegram, where Ukraine finds local collaborators on Telegram. On Tuesday, a senior Russian commander was blown up inside his car outside Moscow in what appears to be the latest of the string of assassinations against high Russian targets.
13:03Fiona Longmuir:So that could be another reason. And I think the final reason is just that Russia wants to have control over the Internet and wants to be able to shut it down whenever it wants to.
13:12Pjotr Sauer:And how are Russians reacting to this siege, really, and not being able to get online?
Read the full transcript
13:17Fiona Longmuir:That has been the number one trigger this year for this anger that we've seen.
13:21Pjotr Sauer:I can't access my messages. Phones aren't loading. Authorities want to tie everyone to the national messenger Max, which few people want to download and use.
13:34Pjotr Sauer:In the morning, a man got lost here. He was terrified. We showed him the way. We're all feeling anxious these days.
13:40Fiona Longmuir:Russians have been forced to buy paper maps. Some Russians have bought walkie-talkies. You know, so, you know, Russia is back to the 90s. Since the start of the war, Vladimir Putin made this sort of unspoken social contract with the Russian population that, you know, I'll be waging this war and I'll mostly leave the big cities out of it. You know, as an average Russian, you will be able to live the way you're used to. Maybe you won't be able to buy the Western brands that you're used to, but otherwise, you know, life will still be comfortable. But now that social contract appears to be broken and that has frustrated a lot of people.
14:28Pjotr Sauer:And let's talk a bit about Victory Day, a big day in the Russian calendar, which was celebrated last month, which marked the Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany in World War II. How did that play out? Because it was a little different this year, wasn't it?
14:41Fiona Longmuir:Victory Day is arguably the biggest holiday in Russia. Growing up as a kid, it was something that everyone looked forward to. And Vladimir Putin only made it bigger. And he introduced these mass military parades. Initially, Victory Day was a lot about remembrance. You know, remembrance of all the sacrifices to defeat the Nazis. But for Putin, it also became an instrument to show Russia's might. And for him to project the power that he has. We've seen these mass military parades happening every year, and they continued even after the Russia's full-scale invasion. But this year, for the first time, Russia was forced to scale back the military parade, so there were no tanks.
15:22Fiona Longmuir:There were only a few jets flying around, but it was a huge embarrassment for Putin. They are worried their big day could be disrupted. So as a result, they've decided to scale back this year's parade. I think many realize that this is hugely embarrassing, especially because, you know, when Vladimir Putin launched the full-scale invasion, he thought that within a month or two, they would, you know, be inside Kiev. And now, you know, we have a world where Russia actually has to scale down its own parade inside Moscow.
15:56Pjotr Sauer:Yeah, because it's so frightened of Ukrainian drones, which did manage to hit Moscow last month, right, in a pretty shocking incident for Moscow residents.
16:03Fiona Longmuir:Yeah, we've seen more and more drone attacks. We've seen drone attacks last week in St. Petersburg during Putin's famous SPIF, which is the economic forum, also dubbed the Russian Davos.
16:17Pjotr Sauer:Russia says its air defences have been responding to a Ukrainian drone attack on the area around St. Petersburg.
16:24Fiona Longmuir:Guests walked into the conference hall as smoke rose above St. Petersburg. And obviously, these are symbolic attacks by Ukraine. So the drones are penetrating most cities far, far away from Ukraine.
16:39Pjotr Sauer:But at the same time, Putin has claimed on a number of occasions, including, I think, at this Victory Day parade, that the war is coming to a close.
16:51Fiona Longmuir:Do you think he really believes that? And if so, why? Yeah, that phrase made headlines around the world. But I think many misinterpreted what Putin was saying. Later on, he also tried to explain what he meant. And in his worldview, the war might be coming to an end, but not because he's willing to sit down and talk it out with Zelensky, but because he believes he's winning. And I think that's a crucial thing that I hope listeners understand is in Vladimir Putin's mind, the war is going well.
17:30Pjotr Sauer:Right, with half a million Russian dead soldiers.
17:33Fiona Longmuir:You know, with drones flying into Russian cities every day. You know, he believes that, and this is what I hear from people around him, he still believes that even though things are hard in Russia, things are harder in Ukraine. And that, you know, Ukraine is having bigger man shortages on the front line, and Ukraine will collapse at any moment. And we've seen Putin repeating that again and again and again, that I will not stop until I reach my military goals.
18:01Pjotr Sauer:Right. And is there any evidence that Russia is actually winning? Because Vladimir Zelensky gave a fairly upbeat interview to our colleagues Luke Harding and Pippa Kriya this week, in which he insisted that Russia was not advancing.
18:14Fiona Longmuir:And Russia, we can't say that they are losing this war, but we can say that they are losing this initiative each day. Day by day, they're losing this.
18:25Pjotr Sauer:And he also wrote to Putin, didn't he, last week, suggesting that they kind of meet together face to face, mano a mano, and thrash out some sort of deal.
18:33Fiona Longmuir:Based on all the military analysis that we have at this point, shows that Russia is advancing, but advancing at a very, very slow rate. And if they continue to advance at this slow rate, it would take them years, if not decades, to capture the whole of Donbass, which is sort of the minimum that Putin wants. But there's no indication that shows that Ukraine is facing an immediate collapse. So, you know, the question is, why does Putin think this way? You know, and I think there are different theories behind that. But, you know, it does seem like he's receiving very upbeat, rosy military reports from his commanders.
19:13Fiona Longmuir:There's this good example that we've seen play out in public, where last year a military commander told him in front of, it was televised that Russia captured the city of Kupyansk in northern Ukraine.
19:34Fiona Longmuir:Kupyansk is still controlled by Ukraine. So even though this commander told us, you know, we've captured Kvyansk, this was just wrong information.
19:53Pjotr Sauer:You've said that the mood appears to be darkening in Russia, not only because of the enormous death toll, but also because of the effect that it's having on the economy. You mentioned this sort of Russian Davos that took place in St. Petersburg last week. What have we learned about how the Russian economy is actually doing right now?
20:14Fiona Longmuir:So the Russian economy is slowing down. I mean, that is clear. We're seeing that in statistics, but also from reports from Putin's own officials have warned him that they can't continue spending on the military as much as they do right now.
20:33Pjotr Sauer:Okay, so they sometimes tell in the truth.
20:35Fiona Longmuir:Sometimes. The economic block, they deal with numbers and they're often a bit more realistic. It's important to realize that in the first two, three years of the war, Russia's economy actually was booming. And a lot of people inside Russia were saying that they never made as much money as they did in the first two, three years of the war. I mean, I think it's a classic case of a war economy where lots of money was pushed into the economy a lot of the reserves uh so people's salaries were rising a lot of the families of soldiers you know suddenly became rich because of all this money they received from you know their death uh husbands but over the last two years we've seen a turning point and now when i speak to russians they say things are very hard uh inflation is rising and the russian government has taxed a lot of the small and middle businesses in order to keep on spending on the war.
21:31Fiona Longmuir:So we're seeing a turning point and we're seeing that it's getting much harder for an average Russian.
21:37Pjotr Sauer:And what about the business elites in Russia, the oligarchs? They play a key role, don't they, in Putin's Russia? They're in his inner circle. Are they telling him any hard truths yet?
21:49Fiona Longmuir:A few weeks ago, Putin got all the oligarchs together again and he asked them to contribute to the war.
21:55Pjotr Sauer:Oh, financially?
21:56Fiona Longmuir:Financially, and some did. I think together they contributed some$3 billion, which is not an insignificant sum. But privately, from the very start of the war, many of the business elites were horrified by the war. But they're scared. They're scared to speak out in public. I speak to some of them. They realize how bad this war is going. One of them told me that there's this profound disappointment in Putin. Quite strong words, but again, they won't speak out in public because they're scared to lose everything they have. We've seen that a few businessmen that have spoken out and have left the country, they've been stripped of their businesses and they've lost everything they have.
22:38Fiona Longmuir:One big Russian businessman who did leave, I spoke to him. His name is Oleg Tinkov, and he now lives abroad. He's very critical of Putin.
22:47Pjotr Sauer:He's got a cycling team, hasn't he, Tinkov?
22:49Fiona Longmuir:He used to, yeah, he used to. But he compared it to me, like the Russian businessmen and the oligarchs, they're playing Russian roulette. They just hope that they don't get hit, but their neighbor might get hit. They're just sitting it out and hoping that this will end at some point.
23:11Pjotr Sauer:Coming up, could Putin face a coup anytime soon?
23:44Pjotr Sauer:We'll be right back. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch the full episodes on YouTube.
23:54Pjotr Sauer:Former politics reporter Jane Coeston is now hosting Crooked Media's daily news podcast, What A Day, five days a week. With stories constantly flooding your For You page, it's hard to separate what matters from all the noise. That's why every weekday, Jane and the What A Day team scour the biggest headlines and bring you the stories that matter most to your life, all in just 20 minutes. Listen to What A Day wherever you get your podcast, or subscribe to What A Day on YouTube for the video version.
24:36Pjotr Sauer:Beyond Russia's borders, how are things looking for Putin? because Russia's obviously got many interests abroad for years. It was propping up Assad in Syria. It's been helping out Iran, meddling in Armenia, the recent elections there. How would you assess what's happened to his global influence recently?
24:53Fiona Longmuir:Their resources, both political and economic, have been so focused on Ukraine that they've sort of had to sacrifice their influence elsewhere. where Russia was dealt a very sensitive blow in Syria, where Assad, a longtime ally, was overthrown and Russia wasn't really able to do anything about it. You know, Russia has tried to prop up candidates, pro-Russia candidates in Moldova, where they lost, most recently in Hungary, obviously. Viktor Orban, a big ally of Putin, he lost. Cuba is being squeezed by the Trump administration. I'm now in Armenia, where there were elections on Sunday and a pro-Western candidate won.
25:34Fiona Longmuir:Among the losses, I think Putin will be watching the Iran war with a lot of satisfaction. I think the Iran war has shown the weakness of the US. Putin is said to be secretly supplying Iran with weapons. Obviously, the Iran war has led to a spike in oil prices. So I think, you know, even though overall the picture isn't looking that good for him, internationally, the Iran war is this one sort of bright spot in the Kremlin's perspective, where actually a key ally seems to be coming out stronger out of it.
26:06Pjotr Sauer:And finally, you've set out really convincingly how the mood in Russia is turning against Putin. But realistically, is there anyone or anything that is in a position to topple him or persuade him, maybe persuade him to step down after 26 years with that little break in the middle on the throne?
26:26Fiona Longmuir:I think most analysts and observers agree that if there's going to be change, the change will come from the top. So from the elites. At this moment, we've seen no indication that Putin is willing to change course because of pressure at home. You know, he told one of his economic advisors who warned him that, you know, spending more on the war would be a bad idea. He said, well, then we should cut in other sectors, you know, whether it's education or health care. So for the long term, this is obviously disastrous for Russia. But Putin believes, and he's probably right, that for the next year or two, he can still spend on the war.
27:02Fiona Longmuir:But he will have to cut in other sectors. One of the more shocking reports in recent weeks was cited by some media. It was a Western intelligence report, unnamed officials, who said that potentially Putin's former defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, could lead a coup against Putin. And everyone I talk to finds that opposition highly unlikely. Those who know Shoigu told me he's isolated, he's not very popular in the army, and he's not really a likely candidate. But, you know, again, Russia can still surprise you. Three years ago, there was a march on Moscow by Yevgeny Prigozhin, a Wagner mercenary leader who came close to Moscow and was eventually stopped.
27:48Fiona Longmuir:But I think for any coup to happen, I think we first need to see Putin weakened, both physically, potentially, and also mentally. And right now, he still looks in control. Right now, we sort of seem to be in a stage of acceptance rather than sort of active coup planning. So, you know, I think the West should get their hopes up that there's a coup happening at any moment.
28:11Pjotr Sauer:Piotr, thank you so much.
28:12Fiona Longmuir:Thank you.
28:17Pjotr Sauer:That was Pyotr Sauer. I really recommend the long read that he did on Putin's drop in popularity. He wrote it along with Sean Walker, another Today in Focus favourite. It's headlined, there is profound disappointment in him. Mood in Russia turns against Putin. You can find it at theguardian.com. And that is all for today. This episode was produced by Guy Zaffman and Casey McClure and presented by me, Helen Pidd. Sound design was by Rudy Zagadlow and the executive producer was Sammy Kent. We'll be back in your feed this afternoon with the latest.
28:54Fiona Longmuir:This is The Guardian.
29:17Pjotr Sauer:We've been what we built and what we've allowed ourselves to forget. Some of these objects are well known many are not but all of them carry the story of how we got to this moment. Find a history of the United States and 100 objects on the 99 % Invisible Feed wherever you get your podcasts.
