Has Burnham proved he can handle Trump? - The Latest

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0:10Being able to do a little bit of that easygoing, glad-hiding charm, that definitely will suit him well in the international arena. I think he's a natural business person. We've had a lot of discussions, even before this meeting, we've spoken to each other numerous times on the phone. There is a risk here that the UK just gets caught floating somewhere mid-Atlantic. Andy Burnham decided to put his own imprint on British foreign policy. And I'd be really interested to see what other topics he chooses to do that on. From The Guardian's Today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth. Andy Burnham, our relatively new Prime Minister, is well used to being out and about in the streets of Manchester.

0:49But this is his first time being in a prime ministerial role in the corridors of power in New York at the UN General Assembly. Kieran Stacey, you're our policy editor. Andy Burnham had his first meeting with US President Trump yesterday, something that any leader would go into with some trepidation. How do you think it went for him? Yeah, I mean, probably as well as could be expected. It's interesting that actually there were some signs of nerves there when the two leaders were talking to the press afterwards. You could see Andy Burnham kind of playing almost slightly nervously with one of his hands.

1:26I mean, I would say that Andy Burnham does have a kind of slightly deferential manner to him. He's very warm. He's very personable. He's very charming. But he's not especially sitting next to the bombastic President Trump. He's not kind of usually playing the alpha male in the room. And that definitely came across, I think, as the two men were sitting there in front of the cameras after their meeting. But look, as far as Downing Street's concerned, this went as well as could be expected. They thought there might be a few stumbling blocks, the Chagos Islands deal being one of them, which did come up, but also sanctions on Israeli settlements being another, which really didn't come up and Donald Trump swerved altogether.

2:02And the real moment that I think number 10 will want to focus on today is somebody asked the president, look, US and UK have had some ups and downs in recent years. Where would you say we are now? He said very much up. And he said, you're better than things were under the last prime minister, which I'm sure Andy Burnham would have enjoyed hearing. He might have also enjoyed hearing himself referred to by Donald Trump as a natural business person, which I don't think anybody's ever called Andy Burnham before. But in Trumpland, that's the ultimate compliment. It certainly is. And it shows that Burnham has obviously been trained up in how to play the Trump game.

2:36But I don't think natural businessman is anything we would have thought of describing Andy Burnham as before. You mentioned that one of the sticking points was the Chagos Islands, something that has been preoccupying Trump for some time. There has been huge criticism from the Trump administration about the deal to give the Chagos Islands back to Mauritius, but still keep the military base. But there are some signs that the British government might be thinking a bit creatively, perhaps to appease the president. Well, look, what's really happened over the last 24 hours is that senior ministers, Andy Burnham included, have admitted what the government's position is and has been for some time.

3:18As soon as Donald Trump came out and said that he was opposed to the Chagos deal, it was essentially dead. The US needs to ratify this. The US president needs to approve of it. if he doesn't, the deal can't go ahead. Keir Starmer kind of said as much, but was never quite as open as, I think, Andy Burnham and his defence secretary, where Streeting had been in the last 24 hours. What's really happened is a shift in rhetoric. So even back earlier this week, Luke Pollard, the defence minister, was sent out onto the airwaves, insisting that the government was still pursuing that Chagos deal. But then in that meeting that Andy Burnham had with Trump, Trump said that Burnham had agreed to review it.

3:57And Burnham, interestingly, kind of just said, yeah and not a lot else. It was then left up to West Street and the Defence Secretary to go out on the airwaves on Wednesday morning and say indeed that the government is now reviewing it. That has essentially been the case for a while and basically the government has one of two options here. It can either change the deal in a way that suits Donald Trump or it can simply wait for Donald Trump to leave office and try again in a few years time. Yeah yeah or do something to appease him that might make him slightly more cooperative on other issues because the other major thing that Andy Ben has done whilst in New York is give a big announcement about a new disinformation warfare agency that will be based in the UK.

4:44Tell me about what he announced and why do you think he chose that audience, that international audience to make that announcement? Yeah, I mean, there were two announcements that Andy Burnham made in his speech to the UN, which, by the way, happened at an absolutely terrible time for us correspondents over here in the UK because it was in the middle of the night. Luckily, our colleague Pippa Crira was over there in person. But he did make two particular announcements. One was a kind of new push to regulate AI. We could talk a little bit about that. But the second was, as you mentioned, Lucy, this new centre to tackle disinformation.

5:17In fact, I'm going to have to look at my notes here because this new unit has quite a convoluted title. It is the National Centre for Information Defence. Ah, very catchy. Yeah, I know, right? We don't know what that means. We don't know how much money is going to be spent on it. We don't know who's going to start. I mean, let's just talk a little bit about what Andy Burnham said this centre would do. He essentially said that it was there to detect, attribute and disrupt information attacks by foreign powers. It would help communities identify and combat disinformation. He said, by the way, quite an eye-catching stat that Russia is spending£1.3 billion a year on sowing disinformation around the world.

5:59So essentially this new unit, this new centre, whatever it is, is going to be there to try and identify to people when campaigns, information is out there, looks like it's homegrown, but is actually being deliberately sown by a foreign power. It sounds, if I'm being honest, like the kind of thing that GCHQ probably already does quite a lot of. So this might end up being a bit more money for a few more people in GCHQ to focus on that. You know, let's wait and see. Maybe it's a whole new institution and a new quango that Andy Burnham has suddenly set up here. Yes, exactly. That you will have to mention several times and remember.

6:36I should learn its name first. But a big part of that announcement was about the use of artificial intelligence in the sort of weaponization of disinformation. Clearly, China and the US are sort of streets and streets ahead in terms of the technology itself. But is Andy Burnham trying to position the UK as one of the leaders in regulation of such technology? And if so, is that likely to put him in a collision course with Trump? Because Trump has described the warnings that it's a threat, an existential threat to humanity as a hoax. Yeah, I mean, Donald Trump actually has kind of, I wouldn't say necessarily shifted his position, but has really leaned into this argument in the last few days that these warnings about the existential threat that AI poses to humanity are, as you say, Lucy, a hoax.

7:27I think he called it a kind of globalist conspiracy at some point during the meetings in New York. My guess is he spies here an opportunity for the US to take some strategic advantage to really make itself the home of AI and thereby boost domestic growth. While other countries are kind of fretting about what the consequences of the technology might be. Let's just kind of flesh out where we are globally. as you say, we've got the US and China way ahead of everybody else pulling ahead with the technology, but also in the US's case does have a well-respected safety institute. The UK is probably joint number three in terms of the technology with France, but as you say, has particularly tried to position itself as a leader on regulation.

8:13And that dates back from when Rishi Sunak was prime minister and convened the first ever AI safety summit, which happened in Bletchley Park. I was there at that and it felt like a very kind of pioneering, cutting edge thing to be doing at the time. And now it's a conversation that the whole world is having. The thing is, the UK is also in this slightly difficult position of always wanting to mediate between the more safety conscious EU and the more gung ho US and hoping to position itself somewhere in the middle of those two. So there is a risk here that the UK just gets caught floating somewhere mid-Atlantic, which is always the risk when the UK tries to play power broker between the US and the EU.

8:52But as you say, he wants to remain on good terms with Washington. So it's quite a delicate balance, isn't it? In terms of sort of how Burnham has performed, I mean, there were lots of questions before he became prime minister about how he would do on the international stage and how experienced he was in foreign policy, which was very little compared to other politicians who've been in the game as long as he has. He chose his first overseas visit to be in Kiev to meet Vladimir Zelensky. But this is his first time on a kind of big international platform like the UN General Assembly. Our wonderful colleague John Crace said, Andy's stock in trade is an easygoing self-confidence.

9:34He's comfortable in his skin in a way that Kier never was, or perhaps the artifice is better concealed. I wonder what you make of those comments. Yeah, I mean, look, I agree with John. I disagree that I think there's any artifice here. I think Andy Burnham has long been comfortable in his skin. It's one of the things that kind of attracts people to him. He wears things lightly. I mean, I remember before this trip, he was challenged on things that he'd said about Trump in the past. And when he said, for instance, he wouldn't be welcome in Manchester. And he said, look, we all say things in life.

10:05But he kind of just brushed it off and moved on, which you can do, by the way, with Donald Trump. That definitely will suit him well in the international arena, I think, just being able to do a little bit of that easygoing, glad-hiding charm that didn't come naturally to Keir Starmer. What he's trying to do, I think, Burnham, in this situation, and let's be honest, foreign policy is not his thing, has not been in the past and won't necessarily be his thing as prime minister. What he's trying to do is marry the foreign policy deafness and expertise that built up around Keir Starmer. And let's not forget he has retained Jonathan Powell in number 10, the key advisor on foreign affairs, first to Keir Starmer and now to Andy Burnham.

10:45So he has that expertise, that institutional memory with his own personality. And that could be quite a winning combination. Let me just mention one topic, however, on which it seems that Andy Burnham has taken a different path to the foreign policy institutions here in the UK. and that is on announcing sanctions on Israeli settlements in the West Bank. The foreign policy establishment in the UK and particularly the security services wanted that announcement to wait until after the Israeli elections. Lots of senior officials here believed that it could actually strengthen Netanyahu's position in his own domestic elections next month.

11:24Andy Burnham and Ed Miliband went ahead anyway. That was a really intriguing moment where Andy Burnham decided to put his own imprint on British foreign policy. And I'd be really interested to see what other topics he chooses to do that on. Yeah, it'll be fascinating to find out. Thank you so much, Kieran. Thank you. That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Kieran Stacey, The Guardian's policy editor and co-host of our sister podcast, Politics Weekly, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts and also now on YouTube. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today in Focus will be back in your feeds as usual tomorrow morning.

12:00The Latest will be back tomorrow night. This episode was produced by Angus Neal. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The executive producer was Zoe Hitch. And it was presented by me, Lucy Hoth.

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