How 9/11 changed the world – The Latest

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:10The world was on the right trajectory. Then suddenly there was this. Nobody could make sense of it. Looking back, we can see it as something much, much darker starting. There's no part of the Middle East or the Islamic world that hasn't obviously been touched by the consequences of 9-11. And takes us pretty directly into the present day and the war in Iran. I mean, there are other factors, obviously, but there is a definite line there. From the Guardian's today on Focus, this is The Latest with me, Annie Kelly. 25 years ago, the planes went into the Twin Towers in New York. Nearly 3 ,000 people lost their lives in the United States.

0:55in acts of terror perpetrated by al-Qaeda operatives. Jason Burke, you are our international security correspondent. You've covered all of the wars and the conflict and the upheaval that have succeeded that devastating day. I think those of us that are old enough to remember it actually happening, none of us will not know exactly where we were the moment that we first saw those pictures coming out of New York. Could you take us back to that day 25 years ago? Where were you? And at the time that you saw that happen, did you understand just how consequential it was going to be? I was back in London.

1:31I'd been working in Afghanistan and Pakistan on actually the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden for a couple of years. It was based out there and I'd come back. I was in the offices of the Observer in Farringdon Road, North London, watching it on TV screens we had up in the newsroom. And like so many other people, I saw the first plane go in and thought, that's extraordinary. Probably an accident. Although, you know, something else was in my head at the time, given what I've been working on over the previous three or four years. And then the second plane went into the South Tower. And I turned to the foreign editor standing next to me and just said, that's bin Laden.

2:14And did I know how big it was? I mean, I knew it was big. I mean, everyone knew it was big. It was incredibly shocking. I mean, just the visuals of it were incredibly shocking. It's still shocking today looking back at those pictures, isn't it? It has been recently. And it really is an extraordinary event. I mean, just amazing. And deeply, just in every way, shocking. I mean, it kind of... I don't think I knew how big it was going to be. I mean, it was impossible. Everybody knew it was massive. But I mean, the consequences were so vast, so historical, so epochal. I mean, it was the end of an era.

2:54And you don't know that at the time. No, I mean, it really feels like there was the time before 9-11 and the time after. And it's shaped so much of the world that we live in today. If you were there and at that moment, it came after 10 years of kind of good news. I mean, there was Clinton's America. Globalization was a force for good. The Cold War had been won. Yeah, there was a lot of bad things happening. But it felt that the world was on the right trajectory. And then suddenly there was this. Nobody could make sense of it. and looking back we can see it as a loss of that moment of optimism and confidence and hope and something much much darker starting.

3:48Yeah and I mean you as you said had been writing about Al-Qaeda in the years before the attack. You wrote this week for The Guardian about how bin Laden failed in many of his essential aims. What were his aims that day? What was he trying to do with that attack? So he had these immediate aims, short-term, mid-term aims. And then he had this kind of really big cosmic aim that had no immediate time scale as such. And the short-term aims were to force the US out of the Middle East, I mean physically force the troops out of the Middle East, to bring about the overthrow of a whole series of Middle Eastern regimes that he didn't like, particularly Saudi Arabia being Saudi-born.

4:37And he saw the attack on the US as essential to doing that because he saw US support for those regimes as essential to their maintenance. And probably the aim of weakening America in the long term, but it wasn't very explicit in terms of the kind of biggest aim he wanted. And this is what an attack like that does. And that's what terrorism does. It was spectacular. It was made for media. It was watched by hundreds of millions live. And it was aimed at radicalizing his own followers, existing followers, mobilizing new ones and forcing people to make a choice. polarizing communities across the islamic world in the west dividing people so as to better create conflict in the future and with that that it's hard to say that he wasn't successful enough and actually what's interesting is that the u.s jumped right on board with that didn't they in terms of the polarization we had the state of the union address the year after with this axis of evil, which is a kind of you're either with America or you're against us.

5:45And I wanted to talk about, you know, the Middle East. He wanted America out of the Middle East. That obviously hasn't happened since 9-11. The fallout from that act and the response has been, I mean, really hugely significant in shaping what's happened since. Could you tell us how it affected that? I mean, there's no part of the Middle East or the Islamic world that hasn't obviously been touched by the consequences of 9-11, the same way that nowhere has escaped those consequences. But I mean, particularly important and significant for Iraq is the most obvious example. Iraq was the massive moment of rupture.

6:26And for example, it opened the way to Iranian influence across much of the region, which allowed the Iranians to push towards building a kind of axis of resistance and building, as they called it, a series of Islamist militia around the region that would project their influence and power. That was hugely destabilizing, causing a whole load of conflicts as others, such as Israelis, push back against that and takes us pretty directly into the present day and the war of Iran. I mean, other factors, obviously, but there is a definite line there. And also it kind of shaped America's position in the world as well, didn't you?

7:08You talked about this time before 9-11, America being the kind of superpower of Western democracy. Now, you know, in the years after 9-11, their response to that shifted, didn't it? There are some arguments that it precipitated the start of America's decline. It turned its attention away from China. But also it kind of heralded in this age where the end justified the means. You had America using torture. You had Guantanamo Bay, you know, people staying for decades with no charge. There were all of these very significant ways that America approached responding to 9-11, which do have direct consequences now.

7:49Yeah, there was a lot of bad things that happened in previous decades, clearly. But I think it was partly because it came at that moment. It came at that moment in the early 00s when we were in this new world, American hegemony, one superpower, and to begin with a sense of optimism. And then suddenly you got this vast amounts of lies told over misleading propaganda over the Iraq war. Then deliberate flouting of basic laws against torture ethics and so forth much else and and that was kind of deeply shocking to a lot of people but also uh set up global examples of how it was possible to behave hugely undermined the kind of sense of international community international rule of law even if it wasn't actually stuff that was written down it was just a sense of how you could behave i mean it kind of really pushed the boundaries.

8:52And because it was the superpower, everybody was watching. And if the superpower and the Americans can behave like that, why can't, you know, however many mid-ranging powers or tin pot dictators or indeed rogue actors? They're not even states. It set a precedent, didn't it, that is impossible to ignore now? I think it brought us into, it was part of this new, much darker world where, you know, often states weren't running things. It was kind of rogue actors like bin Laden or al-Qaeda who were ISIS. Not that much later, 2014 was the rise of ISIS. Obviously, another direct line to 9-11 in terms of consequence.

9:37The rise of the Islamic State. I mean, those kind of actors were suddenly front and present in terms of making history in the world, in terms of geopolitics. And that was a world in which the Americans too were kind of plunged into this darkness in many ways. And do you think as well in terms of, I mean, I remember how shocking those pictures coming out of Abbey Grade were with the dehumanization of your enemy. You know, you have the rise of Islamophobia since you have the demonization, the idea that Muslims now kind of brown people, black people are criminals, are like people to be feared and potential terrorists.

10:26I mean, all of that came as that kind of counterterrorism response and the rhetoric that followed it. Is there a direct line through as well in terms of that kind of dehumanization of your enemies and the consequences that are playing out now across the world, but also internally within America, for instance? The whole point of any terrorist act, the public violence, spectacular violence, is it confronts people and they are forced to decide who they're going to blame. That's part of the point of it. It's not just about the physical destruction or the loss of life. It's about a much broader kind of ripple effect.

11:03And there's no doubt that that surged through America, surged through Europe. There are lots of other factors involved as well. That kind of othering, that very radical othering. The sense that there's the sense of, yeah, the polls show that Islamophobia was at lower levels in the immediate aftermath of September 11th, 2001 than it is now in the US. I mean, which is astonishing. Which is deeply troubling. And how much of that is a direct consequence of a single terrorist attack? Lots of other things going on. It's very difficult to get that kind of causation. But it's certainly there. And that's what bin Laden was looking for.

11:46And I mean, this is a really big question to end on, but we do obviously have America that is still shaping world events, still shaping the global order in many ways. But that is really Trump's America, isn't it? And Trump's world order. Would we have had a Donald Trump without 9-11? I think we can definitely say that there was a lot that came out of 9-11 that contributed to the rise of the MAGA movement and therefore Trump. I mean, part of the isolationism, part of the suspicion of the rest of the world, part of the nativism is simply due to the experience of being scorched by a series of inconclusive, costly conflicts overseas.

12:30The forever wars that he platformed his presidency on. Absolutely, yeah. And then there's lots of other, you know, the distraction of decision makers from the economic impacts on the working class, middle class of globalization, for example, which was forgotten as everybody went after Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden. You know, the whole range of factors, the undermining of trust in leaders, too. and the elite, an elite. I mean, all of this is kind of bound in with the militarisation, the language of the military that has gone into policing in the US and then has gone into... The rise of ice and what's happening within American cities now, right?

13:15Yeah, and the paradox is that the US has been safe, effectively, from any further attack. So, you know, the war on terror succeeded on that, not inconsequential basis. I mean, that's not an insignificant thing. But the costs to the world and to the US itself are vast. Well, much to reflect on. And as I said, I think it's impossible to understate the importance of what happened to America and to the world 25 years ago. So, Jason, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much. And that's it for today. Thanks again to Jason Burke. Before I go, I would highly recommend the new series of The Guardian's chart-topping podcast, Black Box.

13:57Season two explores people's relationships with AI chatbots and how they are quietly reshaping all of our lives. All episodes are out now. You can search Black Box wherever you get your podcasts. Today in Focus, we'll be back Monday morning and the latest will be back Monday evening. This episode was produced by Angus Neal. Senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The executive producer was Zoe Hitch and it was presented by me, Annie Kelly.

14:25Our chief technology officer is an AI And our human team reports to that AI Meet your new manager They're an AI chatbot He's fired people The AI boss has fired human employees Yes, for lack of performance Black Box, The Chatbots A new series from The Guardian investigates About the strange things happening between AI and us The whole series is out right now. Search for Black Box wherever you get your podcasts. This is The Guardian.