North Korea’s ‘most beloved daughter’

0:00Jean H Lee:This is The Guardian.

0:08Jean H Lee:Today, the teenage girl in training to become North Korea's next supreme leader.

0:21Jean H Lee:With most world leaders, if they have a kid, you know about it. But in North Korea, they do things differently. For years, Kim Jong-un never even acknowledged having any children. Then in 2022, a young girl suddenly appeared by his side, inspecting a ballistic missile with him, hand in hand, as you do. On Friday, the young daughter of North Korea's leader made her first public appearance during that launch.

0:52Rachel Humphreys:His daughter, believed to be around nine years old, identified by North Korean state media and appearing right alongside her dad as they walked around this gigantic missile dwarfed by the size of the transporter erector launch vehicle that was used.

1:08Jean H Lee:Kim Jong-un still won't come out and say, hey, everyone, meet my daughter and successor. But there are signs Jue is being groomed for the top job. North Korea is now forcing people with the same name as Kim Jong-un's daughter to change it. In 2023, the North Korean government issued a diktat ordering anyone else called Jue to change their name. And last year, Kim Jue took her first public trip abroad, accompanying her dad to Beijing for China's largest ever military parade. And in January, she went to visit her embalmed grandpa in the family mausoleum.

1:54Jean H Lee:South Korea's spy agency believes Kim is close to declaring his daughter the heir to the secretive kingdom. So what do we know about the girl who could be supreme leader? What challenges will she inherit? From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pidd. Today in Focus, meet North Korea's most beloved daughter.

2:18Jean H Lee:Jean Lee, welcome back to Today in Focus. It's great to join you again. So you are the presidential chair of the East West Centre in Hawaii. And most pertinent for this conversation, you are the former Pyongyang bureau chief at the Associated Press, which I still think is quite staggering that you were able to open that bureau. Remind us, when were you there?

2:38Rachel Humphreys:My first trip to North Korea was in 2008. So it's already been many, many years. My last trip was in 2017, and I spent the better part of three years there trying to negotiate the opening of the AP Bureau and then, of course, building that bureau and running that bureau. And those years were 2011, 12 and 13. So right at the tail end of Kim Jong-il and as his son, Kim Jong-un, was coming to power.

3:08Jean H Lee:So you've witnessed close up what happens when North Korea is preparing the heir to take over from the father. And North Korea, of course, is an incredibly closed dictatorship and really secretive. But there's been so much speculation recently, hasn't there, about this tall, mysterious teenage girl who's been appearing alongside the Supreme Leader at events. It's quite the look. Daddy and daughter in matching black leather coats straight out of the Matrix. Juh-we makes frequent appearances on North Korean media, but is never referred to by name. Tell me, what do we know about her?

3:46Rachel Humphreys:North Korea is very secretive when it comes to the first family. They only refer to her as the beloved daughter, or the cherished daughter, or the respected daughter. But that was the same, I would say, with Kim Jong-un. What we do know is that she has been presented to the people. She's been all over the state media. I mean, the pictures and the video, just incredible. But we don't know exactly when she was born. We don't even know exactly what her name is. That's crazy. I know. But I should point out that we don't know exactly when Kim Jong-un was born either. And his name was misspelled by the South Korean intelligence for years until it was published for the first time in 2010.

4:30Rachel Humphreys:So they do keep a lot of these things very secret. However, as you say, as you know, we've seen quite a bit of her. And so, of course, that is what all the speculation is about. What does it mean? What does it say about possible succession? Is she being groomed to be the next leader of North Korea? How old is she?

4:50Jean H Lee:So the best estimate, I think, is that she might be about 13 at the moment, which would track back to her being born, what, 2012-ish? And that's when you were living and working in North Korea, right? So did you have any hint that she had come into existence?

5:04Rachel Humphreys:I don't have any intelligence, but I was there on the ground watching very closely. And I look at pictures, whatever it was you can see. Of course, I saw them in person many times as well. But in December of 2012, when she appeared for the first anniversary marking the death of her father-in-law, Kim Jong-un's wife looked very pregnant. And then when we saw her again in January of 2013, she was not pregnant. Exactly. So I have no additional, I have no intelligence, I should say. But what I did have access to was the North Korean people. And so we had a lot of fun gossiping a little bit about the prospects of a child having been born in 2012.

5:56Rachel Humphreys:And I will tell you why that year is important. So 2012 would be the 100th anniversary after the birth of Kim Il-sung, who was the founding leader, would be Kim Jong-un's grandfather, the great-grandfather of whichever child was born in 2012. So there's a kind of mystical element about the numerology. They take that quite seriously. And so it wouldn't be surprising if a child were born in 2012. Or to be honest, they don't have to tell us. They can also just, the child could have been born in 2013 and they can still say the child was born in 2012. But I base some of my assumptions about what the official dates will be on this understanding of the importance of these patterns, numerology and the mythology.

6:46Jean H Lee:And I just don't quite understand why Kim Jong-un would be so cagey about this. And given there's such a cult around him, why not a cult around his family? And I'm just thinking about if a British prime minister has a baby, Tony Blair. I really remember when him and his wife, Sheree, had a slightly surprised fourth baby and we saw them bringing baby Leo into Downing Street. You know, if our future monarch has a baby, oh, my goodness. We know every cough and spit about that pregnancy and the birth. So why are they so secretive about this stuff in North Korea?

7:18Rachel Humphreys:Well, I should point out that we do have one source, Dennis Rodman, the American basketball player who made a trip to North Korea in 2013 and came back and announced that he had held the baby of Kim Jong-un. NBA legend Dennis Rodman, a friend of Kim Jong-un, said he held the dictator's baby daughter during a visit to the reclusive nation.

7:44Jean H Lee:Rodman said the baby's name was Jiu-Wai.

7:48Rachel Humphreys:Of course, we have no verification that that is actually her name. And there's a lot of speculation about what her name might be, but that's what we've been calling her because Dennis Rodman says that. Now, he is not a fluent Korean speaker, so I think we have to take that with a little bit of a grain of salt. However, I will say that the way that Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea, has presented his family is actually quite unusual if you compare it to his father, Kim Jong-il, who was incredibly secretive. As I said, he never presented Kim Jong-un at all. We never saw Kim Jong-un's name, the current leader, until 2010.

8:25Rachel Humphreys:And he kept his family under wraps. But the grandfather, Kim Il-sung, I'm sorry, it's so confusing with all the kids, but the grandfather was very open with the North Korean people when it came to his family. And I do think that the current leader is trying to replicate that sharing of family details to follow in the footsteps of his grandfather, who was adored by the North Korean people. So we tend to compare everything to Kim Jong-il, the second leader, but I always go back to the grandfather and I see so many parallels between the way the daughter today is being presented to the people and the way that the first leader of North Korea presented his family.

9:10Rachel Humphreys:And those images, we can't see them, but I spent a lot of time in North Korea and I can tell you that those images are everywhere. where the children of North Greece spend so much time learning about the Kim family. So these images would be familiar and would draw this line between the grandfather and grandson to down to that next generation. So if I can just point out a couple of details, like lately we've seen pictures of her firing weapons, for example. Where Kim Jong-un has visited a munitions factory,

9:43Jean H Lee:Kim was accompanied by his teenage daughter, Kim Joo-ai. The two were seen walking through the factory floor together, inspecting firearms manufacturing lines and observing production processes.

9:54Rachel Humphreys:They even took part in a shooting drill. Images show... I will say that this image of a woman firing a pistol goes back to a traditional image in North Korea. You will see images. There's a whole legend about Kim Jong-il's mother. So the first lady, the first first lady, the first first lady of North Korea shooting a pistol as well. So there's a legend around that. And, you know, I just went back to read the biography of Kim Jong-il, leader number two. and there's an entire section in his biography around how he was dressed up in a general's uniform called the boy general was taught to shoot pistols was taken everywhere by his father and his mother taken to all of the military sites to military parades so behind closed doors and within their mythology and within their storytelling that was very much a part of the making of the future leader.

10:56Jean H Lee:But that's far from the only occasion we've seen her with her dad, right? Where have we also seen her pop up?

11:01Rachel Humphreys:Well, I think the first time we saw her was at a celebration for a military anniversary. And when was that? Would have been a couple years ago, three years ago, I would say. There's another image that I have in my head of her sort of walking hand in hand with this massive rocket in the background. So going to ballistic missile launches, just images that are hard to imagine for any child. But also, of course, we look at that and wonder, is this part of the making of the mythology of this young woman? What does that say about what role and what position she's going to have in this family and in the future leadership of North Korea?

11:42Rachel Humphreys:And I would say it is too soon to say she is still only, by my estimate, 13. Yeah. And yet, when I went back to the biography of Kim Jong-il, the second leader, it does say very clearly that he started advising and serving as his father's assistant around the time he was in his late teens. Sure.

12:02Jean H Lee:And do you think that she's basically on work experience at the moment, shadowing her dad? Or has she got a role in doing anything important in running the country, do you think?

12:12Rachel Humphreys:I think at this point, she's shadowing, you know, Kim Jong-un, the current leader also shadowed his father that was all kept under wraps but uh for about a year and a half before his father passed away and and quite possibly longer we just haven't seen those

12:27Jean H Lee:those images and kim jong-un was in his 20s then was he when he was unveiled to the world

12:32Rachel Humphreys:absolutely exactly he was in his he was still in his 20s still very young but this muscle flexing also provided a stage for his chosen successor's grand debut.

12:44Jean H Lee:For the first time, newly minted four-star general Kim Jong-un joined his frail-looking father at a major public event.

12:53Rachel Humphreys:Still very much a young man with chubby cheeks. I'm hesitating because he still has chubby cheeks, but that's a little different.

13:01Jean H Lee:I think he likes a good dinner, doesn't he?

13:03Rachel Humphreys:Well, I will say that it's noticeable with the three of them, the first family, because when you're in North Korea, the people are very, very thin. Most of the people, and you see quite a lot of malnutrition, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's a badge of pride to have a little meat on the bones. So when I went to North Korea and they would tell me in Korean that my body had improved, you would think that means you lost weight, but no, it means you've gained weight. And I think it says something about, for, you know, a North Korea country that's really struggled with chronic food shortages.

13:43Rachel Humphreys:So I say it lightly, but it is very serious that many, many people are going without proper nutrition because so much of the money is being poured into these nuclear weapons and these ballistic missiles. So we shouldn't lose sight of that. But in this society, I think that having a little meat on the bones is seen as wealth and prosperity. And so in some ways, I think that that's a very deliberate picture that they're trying to present. So she does seem exceptionally tall. And I will say that that's quite unusual in North Korea.

14:14Jean H Lee:Yeah, I guess if you're suffering from malnutrition, you do not grow to a great height, do you?

14:19Rachel Humphreys:They are exceptionally tiny people. And in such contrast to the South Koreans who in a couple of generations have, I would say, are a foot taller. So same people a couple of generations ago, entirely different today. Mm-hmm.

14:36Jean H Lee:And we're talking about Kim Jue as if she's the only child of Kim Jong-un, but there are rumours, aren't there, that she's got at least one brother, maybe two. What do we know about that?

14:46Rachel Humphreys:Yeah, I have to say I have never heard anything gossip-wise or never seen any indication of an older sibling. It's quite possible because I haven't been there that there's a younger sibling. However, it's very possible the Kims traditionally have sent their children to Switzerland. I always think it would be crazy.

15:08Jean H Lee:Imagine being at that Swiss finishing school. There's a mysterious Korean teenager who turns up who's a bit hazy about their background.

15:16Rachel Humphreys:Well, I will say that there are North Korean diplomats' children at schools in Europe, and they're very sophisticated. so they wouldn't necessarily stand out as being from North Korea. And there are students, the children of diplomats. Now, Kim Jong-un, when he was in Switzerland, was passed off as the child of one of these diplomats. Oh, was he, right?