The hunt for the next Dalai Lama

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:09Today, the battle to choose the Dalai Lama's successor.

0:23Every year, the Dalai Lama's birthday draws thousands to Dharamshala, the mountain town in northern India that's become the centre of Tibetan life in exile. This year, as ever, the streets were packed with Buddhist followers and monks in orange robes, there to mark the 90th birthday of the spiritual leader.

0:49But this year there was a palpable sense of anticipation. As the Dalai Lama gets older, the battle to choose his successor is underway. And it's no longer just a spiritual matter for one religion in one part of the world. It's a geopolitical standoff.

1:09The Dalai Lama says only his trusted Tibetan inner circle can decide who comes next. But China says it's their decision, meaning the outcome could reignite a decades-long conflict over Tibet, borders and the future of Buddhism itself. From The Guardian, I'm Lucy Hoth. Today in Focus, why there could soon be two Dalai Lamas and what that means for the world.

1:39Hannah Ellis-Peterson, you're The Guardian's South Asia correspondent. First of all, can we take stock of this colossal figure of the Dalai Lama as he marks his 90th birthday? So yeah, so the Dalai Lama occupies a kind of very unique position as this globally recognized both cultural and religious icon, I think we can say. You know, he is head of the Tibetan Buddhists, but for most people around the world, he's also this kind of figure of peace, this figure of kind of unity, someone who actually transcends the religion that he kind of leads. He's the first Dalai Lama to occupy this kind of position.

2:15Prior to him, the Dalai Lama was very much someone who just existed in Tibet as both a religious and political figure. And so this Dalai Lama has kind of created this completely new role for himself around the world. He's met world leaders. He's won a Nobel Peace Prize. He's met celebrities. He's, you know, met US presidents. He's appeared at Glastonbury. You know, I was there. I saw him singing on, you know, on the stage with Patti Smith. She gave him an 80th birthday cake. Wow. Everyone, 200 ,000 people sang him happy birthday. Happy birthday to you.

2:54Thank you, thank you. And in terms of his day-to-day life, you know, clearly he's reached an old age at 90. He says he's going to live for at least two decades more. But what is his daily life like? The Dalai Lama and his kind of inner circle live in Dharamsala, which is this, what was this very kind of small town high up in the Himalayas in Himachal Pradesh in India. And, you know, they've been there for over half a century and they've established a real community there. There are monasteries, there are schools. There's a whole kind of Tibetan life that exists outside of Tibet in Dharamsala. And it's here that the Dalai Lama has kind of made his life.

3:31You know, he, prior to kind of, I guess, his older age, he was very much present. You'd see him in monasteries. He'd lead prayers. He was around. The very purpose of our life, I usually describe happiness. Even this afternoon, what will happen, do not know. and future, no guarantee, but our life based on hope. Now he's 90, he's definitely less present in person, but he still does a lot of stuff online, he'll lead prayers, and during his 90th birthday celebrations, he was out and about meeting people, very much kind of still there. I mean, extraordinarily, he is 88 years into the role because he was chosen and recognized as the 14th Dalai Lama as a two-year-old.

4:19Can you briefly explain how that happened and how a toddler from remote Tibet becomes this great figurehead of Buddhism? So, yeah, so, I mean, it is an extraordinary story. After the 13th Dalai Lama died, which was in 1933, they believed that, you know, his spirit is then reborn and a mission began to look for his reincarnation. and they use very traditional methods for this and it's the kind of other lamas and other senior spiritual leaders who are kind of tasked with finding him and so they use kind of spiritual signs and visions the body of the 13th dalai lama was said to have turned to face northeast after his death so that was taken as the sign of where they should search in tibet the high lamas who are the other kind of high senior monks then went to go meditate at this sacred lake and here they received a series of visions, some letters, a monastery was seen, a vision of a kind of house with certain guttering.

5:18And so based on these visions, you know, the monks just set out to kind of northeastern Tibet and, you know, searched every village until in 1937, they found a two-year-old boy who we now know as Tenzin Gyatso. And like others before him, he was put through numerous tests. But unlike others before him, he passed with flying colors. So they kind of gave him an array of items and he correctly identified which had belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, like a walking stick, prayer beads. He also reportedly apparently referred to some of the search party by their names and by names from their past lives.

5:58So it was kind of seen that he already recognized those who had come to find him. And this is him, he's two years old. This kind of choice was then approved by senior llamas and other oracles. He was brought before them. And so at the age of four and a half in 1940, he was chosen as the next Dalai Lama. Take us back to the 1950s, because that is, of course, when everything changed for the Dalai Lama. Walk us through what happened when China invaded Tibet. So in 1949, the Communist People's Republic of China was founded with Mao Zedong as its leader, and it declared its intent to liberate. So it viewed Tibet, which at that point was a kind of autonomous, independent state, which had its own army and government.

6:41And they, you know, the Chinese vowed that it would become Chinese territory. And so in 1950, the Chinese People's Liberation Army invaded. Everything was planned by Mao Zedong as early as 1949. Following the then-recent victory of the Communist Revolution, Mao revived China's old imperial ambitions to impose its sovereignty on Tibet. But at this point, it said that Tibet would remain with kind of some religious autonomy, the Dalai Lama could remain in place. But China quickly began to undermine this and particularly began to suppress religious freedom and the practicing of Buddhism. And so, you know, the Dalai Lama tried to reach out to China.

7:24He famously went to meet Mao, age 19, in Beijing. It was here that Mao told him religion is poison, which he later said was kind of a real realisation that there was very little he could do in his relationship with the Chinese. And in 1959, there was a Tibetan uprising that failed. And at that point, the Dalai Lama, fearing arrest, fearing for his life, fled over the border into the Himalayan mountains, accompanied by other fellow monks. He was disguised as a soldier and he escaped over the border into India. Tezpur in the northeast of India has become known all over the world. For it was here that India received the Dalai Lama after his flight from Tibet.

8:05India offered the god-king of Buddhism a safe refuge from the communist Chinese.

8:22So, after all that time in exile and after years of speculation about how his successor might be chosen, the Dalai Lama has now finally made a much-teased announcement about what should happen when he dies. What did he say and why is it such a significant moment? So, China has basically, you know, made it law that they will be the ones who will decide who is the next Dalai Lama as a kind of way of controlling Tibet, ultimately. And so it's therefore meant that the Dalai Lama, who becomes the next Dalai Lama, is an enormously political decision as well as a religious one. And that's something that the Dalai Lama has himself acknowledged.

9:00And therefore, over the years, he's kind of suggested that there could be a different method for ways in which he could reincarnate. You know, he suggested he might not reincarnate at all. He suggested he could come back as a woman. He suggested that his spirit might reincarnate into somebody while he's still alive, so that he would actually be able to kind of almost anoint his successor. And he also said he would only be reincarnated in a free country, which many have took us to kind of mean he won't be reincarnated within China or Tibet. But he'd said around his 90th birthday, he would make an announcement.

9:32And he did. He simply said that, you know, the traditions would continue. He would be, his reincarnation would be found after his death. and only his trusted inner circle of monks would be able to be the ones to identify the next Dalai Lama. And he specifically said no one else has the authority to interfere in this, which was a very clear sign that China, in the eyes of Dalai Lama, has no role to play in the choice of who is the next Dalai Lama. But other than that, he gave very few details, but he very much made it clear that the continuation of the traditions of the Dalai Lama, of the reincarnation, would continue after he died.

10:07But predictably, there was pushback from China. What did the CCP say and what are the possible implications of what China says it will do? So China's basically view of how the Dalai Lama will be chosen is not that the lamas and monks will go out and find him. It's that names will be put into this sacred urn and the next Dalai Lama's name will be drawn from that urn and that choice will then be approved by the government and that's who it will be. So it's very clear, and this is what many experts are saying is a likely scenario, is that when the Dalai Lama dies, we could end up with two Dalai Lamas in his place.

10:44One chosen by this golden nun and the Chinese government, and one chosen by the inner circle of the Dalai Lama and by monks, you know, who go out and find the Dalai Lama's reincarnation. Very likely this reincarnation would be located outside of China or Tibet, because the monks are not allowed the inner circle he's anointed to find his reincarnation and are allowed back into Tibet without risking their lives.

11:19Ladan Tetong, you're the director of the Tibet Action Institute and you've spent your life campaigning for Tibetan freedom. Your own family history is really intertwined with that of Tibet and the Dalai Lama. Can you tell me about that? Sure, yeah. So I am Tibetan Canadian. I was actually born and raised in Canada, but I grew up in the Tibet movement because my father was a Tibetan leader. And my parents were really, I think like all of our, the generations, sort of the first Tibetan exile community refugees to live in the world. Yeah, my father was a young man actually studying in India. He is one year older than His Holiness.

12:10So in 1959, at the time of the uprising that led to the escape of the Dalai Lama and so many Tibetans from Tibet, my dad was 25. He ended up in the refugee camps with my father alongside serving as like a translator and as a very low level government official trying to help in the throes of their refugee crisis and the humanitarian crisis that was playing out there. And then through the years, as he's served as the Dalai Lama's ambassador, or we say the representative of the Dalai Lama in New Delhi, also he served as the foreign minister, essentially, to the Tibetan government in exile. And he and his family, and I think that's passed on to me, feel this intense call to be of service to Tibetans everywhere, to the Tibetan nation and also to the Tibetan government.

13:08And tell me about the centrality of the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader, but also as a political figurehead to you as a Tibetan. His Holiness is sort of everything as both the religious and spiritual leader of Tibetan people. Also for me, especially the generation that I grew up, His Holiness is the political leader or the symbol of Tibet, the Tibetan nation, our identity. I mean, he forged this path on the international stage as the leader of the freedom struggle and the nonviolent struggle of the Tibetan people against Chinese rule in our homeland. And so he's our link to the past, to an independent Tibet.

13:54and then also, you know, at the heart, I think, for every Tibetan, even me who grew up so far away from Tibet and even from exile. His leadership, his words, his example is just central to my life. And so for you as a Tibetan in exile, what was it like to hear this announcement from the Dalai Lama about his reincarnation and the process of choosing his successor? It's one that, as you've been outlining, is deeply spiritual for Tibetan people and for Buddhists around the world. But in this political context, it becomes something else entirely. Oh, I think, I mean, personally, I am inspired and encouraged and I'm just thrilled.

14:36Yeah, it's like the sign that he is still strong and we are still in control of our own destiny and that the Chinese government, for all of their control in Tibet and for all of the violence and the oppression that they have, you know, piled upon our people for generations inside Tibet. They so clearly signaled to China and to anybody who's watching the international community that this is just not their business. It telegraphs to the Chinese leaders and to the world that our struggle goes on as long as they are there. He will be here too. And that is just our truth. And Tibetans have said very clearly that we want his awareness and the institution of the Dalai Lama to continue.

15:21That's what Tibetans want. And he's heard that and he's doing what the Chinese government doesn't do, which is listen to the people, and in this case to his people.

15:38And what is it like to be a Tibetan Buddhist inside Tibet now? It's become a risk to your life to be a true practitioner. And so the sort of the disnification, the monasteries are there and people go to Tibet and say, we see the monks. It seems like they're able to do what they should be able to do. You know, they're debating or they're praying. But actually the life of those individuals is so strictly controlled. The Chinese government has infiltrated every aspect of monastic life, and parents aren't even allowed to take their children sort of freely and openly to the monasteries in a morse or to engage in religious worship very easily.

16:20And all of that is controlled and surveilled by not just people living, sort of Communist Party members in the monasteries, monitoring, managing, they call it, sort of 24-7, but there are cameras everywhere.

16:35The Chinese government appears to be hell-bent on erasing Tibetan identity inside Tibet, at least Tibetan language, culture, really restricting its practice, Buddhist practice, the right of Tibetans to speak Tibetan language, to the point that it will all but disappear if they continue. Why is the Chinese government so intent on controlling Tibetan Buddhists? If the monasteries are there, if people are able to attend the temples, what is so problematic about that for the Chinese state? I think it's the one thing the Chinese government can't figure out, which is how it is that Tibetans have this endless sort of strength and will to resist even after these seven decades of intense repression and violence and everything you can imagine the Chinese Communist Party could put on top of Tibetans to stop them and to make them loyal subjects.

17:35subjects. Buddhism and the monastic system, in a way, it's like the heart of Tibet. The Chinese government wants to stop it. This is to them the problem. We can't get these Tibetans to worship us or give their allegiance to us because they've given it here elsewhere. And that to them is core to winning over Tibetans, is to get rid of that system. And what does it mean that the search for the Dalai Lama's successor seems now and impossible to happen within Tibet itself? I mean, it's certainly going to be complicated. It's just a whole other set of circumstances with international borders and who knows where this child could be born and found.

18:19And it obviously is more complicated than it would be if, like, with the time of the Dalai Lama, he was found in a free Tibet. But I do believe this is why international support is so critical and why there has been such an effort by Tibetans. And I think a response from at least democratic governments around the world, many governments right now have said, which is also very encouraging, is this is just not the business of the Chinese government. It sounds so simple, and of course politics is complicated, but if one just looks at the basics, you know, the Chinese Communist Party should not have a role in choosing who is going to be the next Dalai Lama, a Tibetan Buddhist leader, a spiritual and religious group practice that the Chinese government doesn't actually believe in.

19:24Hannah, when we think about the Dalai Lama, we think of him as this sort of smiling, joyful, beatific figure, but actually he is a very shrewd political operator. Why might that matter as this succession battle plays out? Yes, definitely. You know, he hasn't kind of rose to the stature he's risen to. He hasn't kind of remained, you know, this kind of public figure without, you know, really kind of being an operator, understanding the political position that he occupies and understanding how to use his position to give voice to the Tibetans. From a very young age, he was a political player. You know, when he was in Tibet, he was there negotiating with the Chinese for Tibetan autonomy.

20:06And those are lessons that he never forgot. You know, he went over to India, he, you know, was granted asylum by Nehru. And from that point onwards, he understood his position. He understood the delicate position he was in in India, and he understood the kind of necessity for the Tibetan people to have a voice. And he used that. He used their political power. He used the position that he had to meet with politicians, to meet with global leaders, you know, and to fight the case of the Tibetans. You know, they're a small community, but they're still a very kind of, I guess, influential one in many ways.

20:40People understand the cause of Tibet. And that's, you know, thanks to the Dalai Lama. And you see his kind of shrewd political naus also today, you know, in the way in which he is negotiating with India. You know, the comments that he made on his 90th birthday were seen as a little more diplomatic than ones in the past. And that was seen as a kind of acknowledgement of the current geopolitical position that he's in. And everything that he's seen to be doing in terms of his reincarnation is seen to be very very much kind of manoeuvring these political forces that are all coming at him and ultimately trying to kind of preserve the institution of the Dalai Lama despite that.

21:17What does it mean more broadly in geopolitical terms, in terms of tensions with China? We have a US president in the White House in the figure of Donald Trump, who is seeking to take a much tougher stance on Beijing. How could that play into all of this moving forward? It certainly means that, you know, The Dalai Lama, the institution of the Dalai Lama has some kind of interesting geopolitical significance that it just didn't have before. And that, you know, increasingly different countries are using, backing the Dalai Lama, using Tibetan issues as a formal leverage against China. It's a real sore spot for them.

21:50Anytime any country makes a statement regarding the Dalai Lama, China responds almost instantly. And so this is a very sensitive subject for China. And what happens after the Dalai Lama dies could have huge geopolitical consequences. You know, if certain countries choose to recognize the Chinese one over the Tibetan choice or the other way around, countries will actually have to make a decision about which Dalai Lama they might recognize. And that completely impacts kind of all geopolitical relations regarding China. So that's why, you know, this kind of it's very interesting. You know, he's this Buddhist religious figure, but also he's very much a pivotal part of the way in which countries, you know, the most powerful countries, the largest countries in the world, India, China, the US, are kind of interacting.

22:33Coming up, how should the international community respond to the Dalai Lama's succession battle?

22:52Larden, we've been hearing about how geopolitics is being folded into what should be a very spiritual process to choose the next Dalai Lama. What would you like to see as a Tibetan from the international community as this plays out in the months and years to come? Yeah, I think we need the international community to hold steady, you know, to continue to support Tibetans. And all of the fundamental truths that go along with supporting Tibetan people in our struggle, which is the right of Tibetans to be free and to decide for ourselves what is right for us. So that means the Tibetans inside can be Tibetans, speak Tibetan language, study Tibetan in school, freely practice Buddhism.

23:37The minute the Chinese government comes with, if it gets to this point, the minute they assert any sort of direct role in saying this, actually, that's not, you know, the real Dalai Lama this is, the international community just has to unequivocally reject and refuse to meet with or in any way to give legitimacy to a fake Dalai Lama. And finally, Ladon, just how much is at stake here as we enter such a period of uncertainty, but also anticipation? What do those stakes represent, not just for Tibetan Buddhists, but for the wider world, do you think? I mean, I feel like the timing of this battle couldn't be any more well-timed.

24:19The Dalai Lama, the Tibetan people, Tibetans inside Tibet have really been so strongly standing for this idea of democracy and openness. and universal values that we see enshrined at the UN, Tibet's battle for freedom and against this dark system of authoritarianism, totalitarianism, this is, in a way, the battle that the world is facing right now. I couldn't have imagined it would be so stark, but as we see democratic backsliding around the world and more authoritarian governments rising and war being waged on people, you know, nations invading others. In our kind of epic David versus Goliath battle, it represents in a way what our international community is reckoning with right now.