Why Britain recognising Palestine matters

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:09Today, why Britain recognising Palestine matters.

0:23I've always said that we will recognise a Palestinian state as a contribution to a proper peace process at the moment of maximum impact for the two-state solution. With that solution now under threat, this is the moment to act. In the next couple of days, a delegation of British ministers will arrive in New York for the United Nations General Assembly. In its Grand Hall, one item will be top of the agenda. A century after Britain issued the Balfour Declaration, the historic document that helped pave the way for the creation of Israel, the government will make what many see as a long overdue step, recognising the state of Palestine.

1:09It's not been an easy process, and it has been long fought for. The British are the ones who handed our country to European immigrants. I remember the stories of the resistance fighters that went against the British army back then. And we grew up learning more and more about the British imperialism and the Belfer Declaration and British occupation of Palestine.

1:40But two years into the war on Gaza, with Israel showing no signs of slowing down what has been declared a genocide by a UN commission, human rights organizations, Holocaust scholars and The Guardian, what does it mean for countries across the world to recognize Palestine? And specifically, what will it mean for Palestinians? Even if that's the history, even if that's their legacy in the British politics, it's never too late to change that. And the recognition is the first step towards changing that, and we really welcome that step. From The Guardian, I'm Noshin Iqbal. Today in Focus, when Britain is set to formally recognise the state of Palestine.

2:26Arab Barghouti, we're speaking to you on the eve of Britain recognizing the state of Palestine. I want to talk to you specifically about that, but first could you begin by introducing yourself? So my name is Arab Barghouti, I'm Palestinian and I grew up in the West Bank in Ramallah. I'm the son of Marwan Barghouti, who is a Palestinian political leader and detainee. He's been in prison, in Israeli prisons for 23 years, and I try my best to advocate and campaign for his release. Well, tell me more about your father, Marwan, because he's talked about as being the Palestinian Nelson Mandela. But tell me more about who he is and what he means to Palestinian people.

3:12Well, Marwan Barghouti is a man who grew up in the West Bank as well. He was born in 1959, and then he encountered the Israeli occupation in his village. And from there, he started, you know, his activism journey. The first time he went to prison was at the age of 15, then again at the age of 18. In the 80s, he became the head of the student council in Merzat University. What was different about him is that he's someone who is from the people, he goes to the protests, he's in the streets every day. From there he became a political leader and he participated in the struggle against the illegal Israeli occupation, but also he's someone who believed in coexistence and in political solution.

4:03And that's why in the 90s he supported the Osla Code, he supported the negotiations. The 1993 Oslo Accords were supposed to broker peace and pave the way for a two-state solution. Today, we bear witness to an extraordinary act in one of history's defining dramas. But by the late 1990s, illegal Israeli settlements were still expanding inside Palestine, and negotiations began to break down. Here we find a situation where settlements are expanding, new settlements are emerging. And this, as usual, brings us to the basic question. Does Israel want peace or not? And they know that peace and settlements cannot go hand in hand.

4:53Tensions were high and Palestinians began to lose faith in the political process. In 2000, popular protests erupted into civil disobedience and later violence, known as the Second Intifada, the Arabic word for uprising. By this point, Arab's father Marwan was a formidable political leader. And I do believe that the Palestinian people will continue with this resistance and this proved that the Israeli aggression didn't succeed to broke the will of the Palestinian people and the intifada and the Palestinian resistance. And he did support political solutions, but when he understood that it will be a dead end with the Israeli government back then, he decided to support the Palestinian uprising.

5:46And people saw in him someone who's charismatic, who's influential and a unifying figure. In 2002, Marwan was arrested by the Israeli military and later charged in connection with attacks inside Israel that killed 26 people, including civilians. The defendant entered the court in defiant mood, waving to supporters and vowing to fight Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. You know, everybody in this world knows that Marwan Baruti is fighting for peace. I am a peaceman. I do believe that the best solution for the two people, two states, for the two people, there is no solution except the solution.

6:34Two states for the two people. Marwan has always proclaimed his innocence, and his arrest was condemned by Palestinians as an attempt to silence a future political leader.

6:48In 2004, after what he and his supporters called a political show trial he was sentenced to the maximum possible punishment for his convictions five back-to-back life sentences plus 40 years in prison

7:04If you go back in the history of the Palestinian cause if you're an influential leader, if you're an effective leader you're either going to be assassinated or put in prison And that's why they killed many, many Palestinian leaders that I can't even, you know, I don't have the time to name them. Of course, but the Israelis would say that he's also involved in terrorism, that he's been responsible for the killing of people. So how do you square that with his time in prison and everything he's been doing since he's in there? Of course they do. I mean, terrorism is a colonial word that has been used against any liberation power.

7:44and it's been used against Mandela, it's been used against all the historical leaders that we can think of. And with my father, it's not different. He's an influential leader. He's someone who's loved and trusted by the people, but he never was involved in the military work. And also, he was always on the record against the targeting of civilians, against the random resistance. He just preserves the right of the Palestinian people of self-defense. and it was a kangaroo trial. If you go back to his trial, it was a kangaroo trial. But whenever I see him, he's very positive. He's looking forward for a good future.

8:22And my father holds a PhD in political science. He completed actually his PhD inside prison and he started actually teaching. He graduated more than 450 prisoners with bachelor's degrees. Your father has been fighting for a free Palestinian state pretty much his whole life. what does statehood mean to Palestinians? Why is it important? It's important because that's our end goal. That's our objective is to become a full independent sovereign state. We deserve that. We are qualified for that. We have what it takes. The only problem is politics and the only problem is the fact that the international community did not commit to its promises to the Palestinian people.

9:08And I know it's not everything. It's not a game changer. We need to be very clear about that. But it's a good step in the right direction. It protects the idea of the Palestinian state because the Israeli current fascist government is openly bragging about the fact that they're killing the idea of the Palestinian state. And diplomatically, when countries like Britain and France and Canada, they recognize Palestine, that means something.

9:42Patrick Winter, you're The Guardian's diplomatic editor and you're heading to New York to cover the General Assembly where a lot of the talk will be dominated by the UK's announcement in recognising the state of Palestine. Can you set the scene for me? Sure. Well, every year there's this sort of diplomatic sort of ascot or festival that occurs where every world leader, if they wish, can come to the UN General Assembly and make a speech of sometimes inordinate length. But what is new and different about this particular General Assembly, which is a week-long event, is that on the Monday, the start of this process, there's going to be a day set aside to look at this issue of the recognition of Palestine.

10:26And it's being presented in the context of how the world can still put its collective weight behind the concept of a two-state solution whereby Israel and Palestine live side by side. So the UK is making this historic announcement, but why now? They've been under some pressure, both internally within the Labour Party and also diplomatically, particularly from very close allies, France, to take this step. The UK position has always been that it will recognise Palestine as a state, but will do so at the point at which it's most helpful to the diplomatic process. and I think to a degree the British were pushed a bit by the French who Macron made a unilateral announcement that he was going to recognize Palestine and he had been also pressing the UK to do the same and I think in an ideal world the two countries would have made the announcement at the same time and it would have been significant because they're two members of the G7 group of countries and they're both permanent members of the UN Security Council So it had a kind of quality to it.

11:36But in the end, the French went first and the UK followed a few days later. But it wasn't quite the same, wasn't it? The French said they would recognise Palatine statehood, but Britain added some caveats. Can you tell us about that? Yes, I mean, the British added some caveats which I think were slightly window dressing in the sense that it was conditional on Israel not offering a full ceasefire, allowing humanitarian aid in. And I think it was slightly dreamt up by the national security advisor, Jonathan Powell, as a way of making this announcement, which is obviously going to be very controversial, to try to make the announcement as part of a process, which is this thing that the UK has been hanging on to, that we don't want to recognise Palestine unless it leads to something specific.

12:23But then why impose those caveats at all then if they knew that actually they weren't going to be met, those conditions? And in some way it weakens to some people. It looks like it's a weakened version of recognizing the state of Palestine on its own terms. Exactly. I think the argument, as I say, was that it was a better way to present this proposal. I don't think in reality the UK government had thought that Israel was going to accede to these proposals. But in a sense, it weakens the announcement, as you say, because there is just a kind of decision to be made on its own merits and regardless of whether it helps with the peace process.

13:01Other countries have set no conditions. What does recognising a state actually mean? I mean, will Britain now begin formal trade negotiations or agreements with Palestine? Will Palestine open a fully fledged embassy in London? Practically, can you give me a sense of what changes? All those possibilities are now on the cards. So there would now be state-to-state relations between the UK and Palestine rather than relations between a state and a aspiring state. And that would mean, for instance, that the head of what's called mission for the Palestinians would become an ambassador. And there would be treaty relations.

13:37I think the most interesting practical impact, which I don't think has been fully explored yet, is whether there would be greater pressure upon the UK to take sanctions against Israel on the basis that they're treating another state improperly. That would be the thing that would be most, in practical terms, I think there would be any kind of change. Otherwise, it's an issue of status. It won't lead to, for instance, Palestine being regarded as a state at the United Nations because that would require the United States not to use its veto and it would use its veto to prevent that happening. Patrick, how significant a diplomatic moment is this?

14:18I think it is significant because it's going to anger America so much. And one of the issues that's held back any kind of progress on the Middle East has been this perception that America alone must lead the diplomatic process. And what we're seeing here is a group of European countries, Canada, Australia, all saying no, they will take an independent stance. And what they're saying in particular is that they need to keep alive this concept of the two-state solution, two countries living side by side, and that what is happening inside Israel now is going to preclude that. And so some of this is an argument not just about recognition of Palestine, but it's about what happens in this region afterwards and whether what seems to be a blank check being given by the Americans to Netanyahu to continue this sort of military approach to everything is the right one.

15:13And I think what you're seeing is Europeans and other countries saying, no, we have to put a break on what Israel does.

15:33Arab, the British government is set to formally recognize the state of Palestine at the United Nations. What do you think this moment means for Palestinian people right now? You know, coming from Britain, it means a lot. Britain handed our country to the Jewish immigrants, and we have to be very clear about that, who came into Palestine. And that doesn't mean that I'm denying the Jewish history in Palestine. I'm proud of the Jewish history in Palestine because that's what makes Palestine a special place, a holy place, because of its history with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And our problem was never with Judaism.

16:12Our problem with one entity, political entity that comes in and says this is exclusively for us. So I think it's about time. It should have happened way before. It's very unfortunate for us that it needs Palestinian children to get slaughtered in front of the whole world until the Western powers start actually moving towards the right direction. Well, how responsible would you say Britain is for the situation Palestine faces today? The lack of statehood, military occupation and the ongoing genocide?

16:46I don't want to put everything on the British, especially recently. If we want to go historically, of course they are responsible. You know, with the Belfort Declaration, with the paving the way for the Israeli state to happen in Palestine and taking land and so on. But recently it goes, I want to say Western governments in general, because I don't think that was a problem with the British only. Look at the German government at the moment. Look at the American administration. The blank check that is given to the Israelis is a problem. And I think that they are making this problem for their next generations, not only for the current generations.

17:25Because if you're, you know, a 20-year-old and you look at your government supporting this genocide, how much credible is that government going to be for you? You won't follow that government at all because it lost its values. And I think it's very important for their own future and for proving to the people that they mean what they say when they lecture us in the Middle East about human rights and humanity and so on. They need to stick to that. And I think they lost that already. But we need to rescue what's left. Arab, how do you understand Britain's policy towards Palestine today? And what do you think is guiding it?

18:07I wish I can know because I meet with politicians I meet with others in Britain the politicians are good at smiling in your face and telling you exactly what you want to hear I think what's guiding it is the pressure the racism is there for sure I can feel it I can sense it in those meetings I can sense it in in the statements when it comes to to the double standards that they use between the Palestinians and the Israelis. And that applies on the Middle East in general. That's why we saw the Iraq war. That's why we don't see an apology for that. We don't see people losing careers for the death of 1.5 million Iraqis.

18:51And we won't see that in Palestine because it's embedded in the government that they look at Palestinians, they look at Middle East in a different way. But there's also particular pressure from the US, right, which is the most powerful ally Israel has. So what do you make of that relationship and the power that USA exerts on this entire process? I think it's an unhealthy relationship and everybody can see that. And we hear a lot lately about like America first, America first. And for me, yes, please make it America first. End your wars. Yeah, end your wars and mind your business. And, you know, there's no health care in America, no proper services and so on, while they are paying for the great life that Israelis are living.

19:42If I was American, I wouldn't accept that.

19:54Patrick, President Trump has just finished his second state visit in the UK and I wonder what the reaction to the UK's announcement has looked like in the US given that it is Israel's biggest ally The Americans have been clear for months whilst this issue's been mulled over in the capitals of Europe that this is be regarded by America as a reward for Hamas. And the American argument is in particular that it doesn't encourage Hamas to come to the negotiating table. So this is an issue in which there is very sharp disagreement and there's been very harsh words exchanged. Well, the U.S. is disappointed that the nations like Australia, U.K.

20:33and others have decided to pick this particular time to unilaterally recognize a second state. I think there's an enormous level of disappointment and some disgust. So presumably Britain recognising the state of Palestine doesn't really put any pressure on the United States to follow suit? There is absolutely no pressure on Americans to follow suit. There's no possibility of doing so. If you look at all the people that have been appointed to key administration posts by Donald Trump, They are all fiercely pro-Israel and there will be the absolute certainty that America will use its veto at the Security Council to protect Israel regardless.

21:15Patrick, as you explained, Britain qualified its recognition of the Palestinian state by imposing conditions on Israel, namely that had Israel agreed to a ceasefire and allowed more aid into Gaza, it would not have endorsed Palestinian statehood. How has Israel itself responded? I think it's not taken that at all seriously as a concern. There is no sense at all that Israel's holding back. I think there's a very interesting speech that Nenya himself gave about Israel needing in a way to change its whole identity and that it had to be what he described as a super Sparta, by which he meant quite a kind of military, self -reliant country.

21:57and that its arms industry would have to be much more built around what Israel itself produces. And this idea of an isolationist economy ran counter to this other kind of image that Israel likes to portray as a sort of startup nation, a sort of technological nation, a nation that trades. But I don't think all Israelis like this idea of becoming a Sparta nation, an isolationist nation. that is not how Israel views itself. Three quarters of the world's countries already recognise Palestine as a stay and some have done so for decades. Why is Britain so late to this? Well I think there's a historical relationship between Israel are part helping the formation of Israel through the Balfour Declaration and a belief that the Foreign Office has always held that it has some influence still over Israel that it can change its mind, that it can persuade Israel to allow more humanitarian aid in.

22:59And there's been two years of this. And there's also been this belief that the relationship with America that the UK has is so precious, so important that this could really cause a major rupture. But doesn't that suggest that Britain, as you said, said previously the policy was to recognize Palestinian statehood, had it been useful to the diplomatic process. And there is a special kind of thinking that Britain had this influence with Israel, that it had a good relationship. But if anything, the last couple of years have shown that's not really the case and that, you know, it will not be told what to do.

23:36Does it not suggest that at this point, Britain recognising Palestine is at the weakest point in the sort of political process? Well, I think the argument runs loads of different ways. But one is that if recognition didn't happen now, it's quite possible that the whole concept of Palestine as a state, which is identifiably East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza, just would not exist. So it was either, if not now, when? And I think behind it is a more difficult argument, which is really about whether this concept of the two-state solution, which ironically was very much an American concept, whether that concept is still alive and whether it's just a sort of kind of diplomatic fig leaf.

24:22Because behind this recognition of Palestine, what matters is the idea of developing a two-state living side by side. And the difficulty is that there's so much of Israeli public opinion post the last two years that now is opposed to a two-state solution. The old concept of two-state solution is now close to dead.

24:52Coming up, Arab Boguti on what a Palestinian state could still look like.

25:11Arab, how far does recognition go in terms of realising the goal of statehood? I think if it doesn't go afterwards with sanctions on the current Israeli government, it won't mean much, to be honest with you. We have to be very clear about that. The Israelis don't answer to attempts of diplomacy. They answer to pressure. The Western governments and the international community has always said that they support the two-state solution, but they're not willing to do anything to make it happen. This is a historical opportunity by the recognition, but the recognition without sanctioning the government exactly like they did with apartheid South Africa wouldn't make any sense and wouldn't move the needle.