Why Labour is going Danish on immigration

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:09Today, why the UK's Labour government wants to copy Denmark's harsh approach to immigration.

0:23Now, we Brits have long admired a lot that the Danes have to offer. We all love Lego, obviously. This young boy had such fun, he used Lego one by one. Many of us enjoy their bacon. Introducing Classic from Danepeg. It's sticker cut, like bacon used to be cut. We binge their crime dramas, envy their knitwear, and are charmed by their special word for all things cosy and warm, even if we struggle to pronounce it. Higa. Higi. Hagi. Hagi. Hig. But now the British government is looking to something else Danish for inspiration. Its immigration regime.

1:10Sources at the Home Office have confirmed that the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, is actively looking at Denmark to model some of her policies. Denmark is seen as one of the toughest countries in Europe for dealing with asylum claims. Over the last six years, Denmark's social democratic government has implemented a series of radical policies to explicitly make immigrants feel unwelcome. And they would say it's worked. Asylum claims are at a 40-year low. Net migration is now just 30 ,000 a year. Pretty low for a country of 6 million people. But it's left many of Denmark's minority communities feeling scared and insecure.

1:52And now, with reform riding high in the polls, Labour wants to do a Denmark.

2:03This week, the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, will announce a major shake-up of the UK's immigration and asylum system. And it will have a distinctly Danish flavour. From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Today in Focus, can a centre-left government beat the far-right on immigration? And should they?

2:27My name is Niles Heinzkov and I'm the political editor of Politiken, which is the largest Danish daily. It's very comparable to The Guardian. I used to be a UK correspondent before I was the political editor and before that I was a Brussels correspondent for five years. Brilliant. So you're clearly the perfect person to compare and contrast the British and Danish approaches to immigration. So can you tell us when did immigration start to become such a hot topic in modern Denmark? It has been for decades the most important single issue, I would say, in terms of deciding elections. In my entire adulthood, it has been something that we have discussed, and I'm 45 now.

3:10What made it a big issue, firstly, was the rise of the Danish People's Party, what one would describe as far-right populist party. And they started getting a lot of voters from traditional parties with this focus they had on immigration. In other countries, I'm thinking in Germany, it was particularly the big influx of refugees from Syria and other countries in 2015, 2016, where attitudes started to harden towards immigration. Was that true in Denmark as well? It was true when it comes to the Social Democratic Party, that the change came more or less around there. There was this denial from the Social Democratic Party that there was the need to tighten immigration laws.

3:59They kind of rejected the criticism that they were getting from the far right, that they were ignoring the problems of immigration. But then the Social Democratic mayors from the party started saying, well, what we are seeing in our cities is that there are problems with immigration. So there was a pressure from within the party as well to change the course. Okay, and when we talk about immigration in the Danish context, the way that people talk about it over there where you are, are we talking about all immigration? Or is this really about asylum seekers and refugees, and particularly actually asylum seekers and refugees from Muslim countries?

4:39It is not neatly distinguished in the debate, but when we're talking about the need to tighten the laws and tighten the rules, we're talking about Muslim immigration, no doubt about it. And so you said that for quite a while, the Social Democratic Party was not convinced that immigration was a problem. At what point did they turn and start to change their position? In 2015, there was this huge election for the Danish People's Party where they took a lot of voters in what could be described as the red wall areas of Denmark. So there was no turning back from there. And then they made a decision in the party leadership that this couldn't go on.

5:26And they basically said that there could not be a piece of paper between the Danish People's Party immigration policy and their own. And it has been like that ever since. So it was definitely also tactical, but it has changed the party. So now it's not about tactics only. It's definitely also something that people believe in. And there isn't really a doubt in the electorate that the Social Democratic Party doesn't mean it. That's interesting. And the policies that we're about to talk about have been enacted under the current prime minister, Mette Frederiksen, who took power in 2019. And since then, net migration has really plummeted, hasn't it, in Denmark?

6:06It was only about 30 ,000 last year compared with 430 ,000 in the UK. And successful asylum claims in Denmark are now at a 40-year low, whereas in the UK last year just over 108 ,000 people claimed asylum, biggest number for more than 20 years. I mean, not all of those will be successful, of course, but still. How did Denmark get to this position? Well, it's a lot to do with the so-called pull factors that they are trying to minimize. So it shouldn't be very attractive to come to Denmark as an asylum seeker. So they're basically hoping that they'll choose Sweden or another country over Denmark.

6:48That's being talked about very openly. So talk us through how they have made Denmark less attractive to asylum seekers. For example, they have tightened the family reunification laws. So it's very difficult to come to Denmark as a family. And they have lowered the benefits and also sent the signal. I think it's a big part of it, speaking loudly about it in Europe, that Denmark is a country like this. That's interesting. And I wanted to ask you about one particular thing that I remember that I found quite shocking when I read it, which was that, tell me if this is still true, that Danish border guards along the border with its neighboring countries were allowed to confiscate the personal items of value from illegal migrants who were crossing the border and that any item that was valued more than 1 ,300 euros, that might be jewelry, watches, even wedding rings, could be taken away from them.

7:46Did that really happen? That did really happen. And that is like the signal giving policy, because in real life, it wasn't something that happened a lot. But it was, I think, a very direct way of saying that we're not a very welcoming country. So we've talked a bit about how Denmark has tried to deter people from arriving and saying, you know, you're not welcome here. But what about when the people are already there? How is Denmark trying to encourage people to go back home? Well, you can get quite a lot of money to return voluntarily. So they're trying to nudge people to go back and take the money to settle in their original home country.

8:32we're talking about tens of thousands of pounds. Yeah, I read£26 ,000 for people to go back home. That sounds about right, yeah. And in terms of gaining citizenship, the Labour Party here has talked about, well, they've already announced that they're going to double the time that a person has to be in the UK before they can apply for indefinite leave to remain, from five years to ten years. And the new Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, has started talking about more stringent language requirements and also this idea that you've got to be a good citizen, you've got to volunteer, you've got to contribute.

9:06And she even said on Sunday that this was her moral mission because she said migration is tearing our country apart and dividing communities. How has Denmark approached these sorts of issues? Yeah, we're way ahead of you in that way because, I mean, we have all the formal criteria. Really? Okay. Yeah. So you have to know the language to pass some tests there. And then there is this test where you need to pass and show your knowledge of the Danish society. Like, for example, when did the woman get voting rights? Who was king at that time? Who made the most famous buildings there? To show that you actually have made an effort.

9:52Now, it's not enough to meet the formal criterias. You have to be Danish in the heart. Sentiments of Danish citizenship matters. Sentiments. So you have to show that you actually mean that you take on the Danish values. But how do you measure that? Well, exactly. What is it? It is really, really tricky. But what they've done a few times is take somebody who has applied for Danish citizenship and meet all the formal criteria. But then somebody has found out that they have maybe written something about homosexuality on Facebook. So that there is this tip from maybe outside of the parliament that this person should not be able to get citizenship because he's clearly not sharing Danish values about sexual freedom or whatever it is.

10:46So what they're doing is that they take them in for individual talks in parliament because citizenship is decided by law in Denmark. So they've taken maybe a handful of time an applicant for questioning in parliament in the committee that deals with citizenship and asked them, so why did you write that about homosexuality? But what they do say is that this is so important that we want to make sure that the people who get this right to be Danish, that they really truly deserve it and mean it.

11:30I came to Denmark 13 years ago as a refugee from Syria, a country where I actually didn't leave by choice because staying there meant losing my life at that point. Agob Yacoub is 36 years old. He defected from the army in Syria in 2012 during the Assad dictatorship and so had to flee. And another thing is that I actually, I didn't choose Denmark. You know, sometimes people ask me, why did you come here? I say, it was actually a mistake. I was going to Sweden and I was caught on my way. All right. So you were stopped in Denmark and then claimed asylum. Did that give you unlimited leave to remain there?

12:10I mean, first I got a five years permit. And then since the five years expired, I have been extending every second year. So I have to submit an application and ask for an extension. All right, that's interesting. So refugee status is not permanent then, because that's something that our Home Secretary says that she is going to change. In the UK currently, refugees are given protection for five years and then they can apply for indefinite leave to remain and that's kind of a pathway to becoming a British citizen. But apparently in future, people will be granted asylum only temporarily and then their cases will be reviewed very regularly so that they can be returned home once it becomes safe.

12:52How easy was it to settle in Denmark? So learning the language, understanding the culture? It was quite difficult for me at that point when I arrived. The fact that my family were still in Syria. So I did not really have like the capacity in my head to begin like a new life from scratch, literally. You know nobody. I don't know the streets. I don't know the language. I I don't have any family. So it was difficult. And slowly, maybe like fast forward, maybe then two or three years after, you know, I began like learning the language. I met a lot of Danish people, Danish friends, but everyone could tell that you're not from this country or something.

13:36So when I got my asylum, I took the decision that they gave me asylum as actually now I'm a Dane. And so, yes, I was grateful in the beginning and I was taken on the residency as a responsibility. And now I should do as much as I can and even more, you know. In Denmark, it's quite known if you have a name like my name or if your name is Ahmed or Mohammed, you know, then you have to actually send, I think it's 60 or 70 % more job applications to be actually considered to be called for a job interview. So people really struggle on many levels. And we've heard from Nihilas, from Politiken, how the Danish government has tried to make it, Denmark, less welcoming for asylum seekers and saying that not only do you have to learn Danish, but you've got to become kind of Danish in your heart.

14:37how did you go about doing that and did you feel under pressure to change honestly I wasn't that aware of the rhetoric in the country in the beginning because I did not understand the language right but as soon as I began speaking the language I was actually shocked the Danish asylum rhetoric for me it's like split in two tracks one is the the hard line that treats refugee as a threat. Using fear-driven language, you know, like about culture and about that people came here actually with the intention to steal our resources, you know, like the narrative is like easily bleeds into racism and Islamophobia, you know.

15:21And the other line is more the humanitarian instance, you know, like that asylum is a basic right and reminding Denmark of its legal obligation, that they have signed agreements. And so it's more like today the debates, it's super suspicious, you know. Reinforcing the idea that certain groups will never fully belong to this country. At the end, the argument isn't actually about asylum. It's more like whose presence in this country is seen as legitimate. And how does that feel? Especially because, as I understand it, the rhetoric is getting more extreme. I mean, that goes to the re-immigration rhetoric that is actually unfolding, you know.

16:07Re-migration, yeah. The re-migration, which, I mean, isn't about like a voluntary return or isn't about repatriation. It's a really radical right vision reversing decades of migration. a political project that is rooted in ethno-nationalist ideas about who should belong in Europe. Just the idea of like a whole group can be sent back. Like, where are we heading, really? Simply like the far right, like old fantasy of sorting and everyone is using it. I mean, we have the DF, so-called DF in Denmark, you know, the Danish People's Party. I mean, imagine we have now local election, you know, and imagine a slogan this person is using is that they want to ban Arabic letters from the shops.

17:05Like maybe you would see a candy shop. What's an Arabic script? Exactly. Like the signs on the shops. If it's written in Arabic, they will ban it or it's a proposal. You know, we have politicians who do their campaigns around the election actually in front of a mosque. In København, there is an Islamic party that has proposed to buy the Danish churches and to open them to mosque.

17:50municipality, these places should now exist. This doesn't belong to our Denmark. But I mean, for the moment, as I understand it in Denmark, this idea of remigration that the People's Party are proposing has been kind of rejected by the government, the Social Democrats. But this current government has offered Syrians money, right, to go back home to Syria and quite a lot of money, 26 ,000 pounds in British currency. Were you ever tempted? No, honestly, never. No, I'm really looking forward to visit Syria. And I don't know if I would be able to rebuild my life again back in Syria. You know, I now I don't have any family in Syria.

18:35My family is in Sweden, actually. But also the fact that why then do I have to always like defend myself and answer this question that whether like I now should go back, you know, as if I I'm just something that you can just put back or I have just been waiting the past 12 years to actually be able to go back. Yeah. And are there any aspects of Danish immigration policy that you think the UK could learn from or copy that you think are good? I mean, I also saw a lot of news about that now the UK is a big fan of the Danish strict laws. And it's hilarious for me, to be honest. Why? It didn't really work for Denmark, you know.

19:25It didn't really work. Like, why do they think is that this was a perfect model and let's just copy it, you know? Well, you could say, you know, the lowest number of asylum claims for 20 years, very low net migration. So it succeeded on that front. That's true. So if that is the goal, then they should go ahead and do that. But for me, I mean, it's really sad that there is a movement, you know, like across Europe of like copy pasting each other, you know, like how did you manage to get rid of all the Muslims? And this is the recipe and you should do this and that. And Denmark speaks very loudly about human rights and democracy.

20:13But at the same time, I can't really feel that these things are given equally to everyone. And it's terrifying, you know, like you never feel secure, you know, about your existence here in this country. Coming up, how the Danish government is bulldozing what they consider to be migrant ghettos.

20:46Now, some listeners might be aware of this, Denmark's so-called ghetto policy, and it can sound to foreign ears like a pretty extreme thing. I think that the Danish government now prefers the term parallel societies, but they were officially, previously, not too long ago, called ghettos. Tell me about these societies and what the government is doing to try to break them up. Well, there are, like in every society, areas of towns where people have the same background. And what we're talking about here is areas where a lot of people with migrant background come and live. And they tend to have a lower educational level, lower income.

21:27And with those criteria in mind, they've been described as ghetto areas. And there is a broad political agreement about doing something about it. And what you can do is trying to mix these areas up. So in short, they have made it so that the poorer citizens of those areas move out and wealthier move in. So they're evicted. They're forcibly moved out. These are people who've made their homes there. Yeah, and maybe because they were originally cheap or they wanted to be with people who looked like them, who shared the language. Yeah, that's basically it. And some of it has been done by eviction, but some of it has been done also by just making new criterias for who could get the available flats in those areas.

22:14And they've also torn down some buildings. But yeah, it's true that many people have not decided themselves to move out. So they have been placed elsewhere and new residents have arrived. I read about this so-called ghetto law, which allows the state to demolish whole apartment blocks in areas where at least half of the residents have a non-Western background. And if you live in these places, you can't apply for your family abroad to join you in Denmark. Is that right? Yeah, it's going on right now. I mean, if you were here in Copenhagen, I could take you to an area that's being transformed with new fancy coffee baristas on the corner shops and new wealthier people moving in.

22:58Yeah, it's happening. It feels like ethnic cleansing a little bit to me. Like, these are people's homes. Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it's not a big discussion in Denmark. Even when we're getting criticism from abroad, it's not something that really raises the alarms in the Danish debate. Because you have to understand that this is a really broad political consensus around this toughening of the laws. So I know that it sounds strange for an informant. Remember, I used to have to explain to Danish people why people voted Brexit. So I know about trying to explain something that seems odd to foreign ears.

23:50But to be honest, in Denmark, it's not really something that's a big debate around because there is so much political consensus around it. I'm not saying that people who criticize it are wrong, but I'm just saying how it is in Danish politics. No, it's really interesting to hear. And I do feel like that the sort of Danish way of thinking is definitely creeping into mainstream politics here. So we've had Robert Jenrick, he fancies himself as the leader of the Tory party. He went to a part of Birmingham, made a video, said, I've not seen one white face all afternoon. You had an MP from the Reform UK party saying it really annoyed her when she's watching TV and the adverts are just full of black and brown faces.

24:29For them to feel able to say that publicly shows there's been a shift here, I think. Yeah. But I mean, what I think shocks British people more is that it's coming from a social democratic party in Denmark. But look at now. I mean, the Danish way is now mainstream in many countries. Yeah. So would you say then that the social democrats have managed to just neutralise this as an issue for the left and that it's now just a mainstream view that you can control immigration and be a progressive person? I think that's a very interesting question because in some respects, yes, definitely. Everybody trusts the Social Democratic Party to be hard on immigration.

25:11But there will always be suggestions from the far right that goes beyond what you have agreed to so far. And we're living through that right now because the leader of the Danish People's Party, he's going big on this term called re-migration. And if you put that into reality, it would mean deportation of maybe 100 ,000 people in Denmark. It's completely unrealistic. But what to do about that suggestion? Because if you say, well, that's really ethnic cleansing, then they might lose some voters in that respect. So it's not at all an easy, a quick fix to everything. But if you ask if they have neutralized it as a question, they have in many respects, yes.

26:00But only because the Danish immigration policy is now defined by what we used to call far right. There's been a thing, again, that's creeping into discourse here, that just being born in Britain is not enough to be British. So you had people starting to question whether Rishi Sunak, the last prime minister, was really British because his family came from overseas. You have a guy called Matt Goodwin, an academic who's just been made the honorary head of Reform UK Students Organization, recently arguing that UK-born people from minority ethnic backgrounds are not necessarily British. And he was saying this in the context of two black guys who were arrested after a stabbing on a train.

26:38And that is something that I think people are still finding shocking. But I wonder whether that sort of thing is just par for the course in Denmark. No, that would be shocking in Denmark as well. The debate is not a round collar. I mean, we're not there at all. What everything is about also is the fact that if I'm trying to explain it from a social democratic way, it's not a new thing for them to want mixing up in society. What they want is rich and poor to go to the same schools. Yeah, that sounds good to my socialist ears. Yeah, why not? I mean, their thinking is that this is in some ways a logic step in their policy because they want us to live close to each other, hence the ghetto law.

27:29So in my area, I live on a nice street where we would normally go to the nearest school. And this is quite unconventional in Denmark. They've taken my street out of that school district and put it in a school district two kilometers away so that we are mixing up the socioeconomics of the schooling system. And so in that way, it is actually, in their own eyes, just a natural following of the fact that the Social Democratic Party wants us to mix, not segregate. Because if we are to have such a homogenous country, then we need to know each other, to have this trust between each other. So that would be the way that they're seeing it.